Can We Defeat Terror by Escalating the War In Afghanistan?

It just doesn't make any sense to me

You can never completely defeat them, but I bet we can kill a good many off them and distract them from attacks on our homeland. And certainly, we can remove supporters of terrorism from positions of power.

People like the Taliban, have terrorized for thousands of years. There will always be terrorists. We didn't war against it, before 9/11, and perhaps we were dumb to war aginst it, after, but we should have stuck with the task of getting those reposable for the 9/11 event. Osama Bin Laden, and his followers.

I doubt we'd have any success, in the long run of actually trying to completely eliminating all of Al Quida. We cannot even really rid our own streets of gangs, and thee mostly out in plain sight, as opposed to hiding out in caves, in a foreign country.

This idea of warring against all the bad people of the world. War on drugs, etc...is an endless thing. Cannot be won.

Maybe that's the whole intention of all this "warring on", things like this. It's not meant to ever be won. It's meant to keep the general population on edge. Living in fear.

I'm with Dorothy.

Afghanstan is not or rather was not a terrorist nation. Its only sin was to refuse to turn OBL over to a lynch mob from the US. A little patience would have gotten that accomplished but Bush had to have a war. We invaded a nation to capture one man. How silly is that?

There is no "war on terror." First and foremost, it's time that we all realize that. This is nothing more than the latest created boogieman by the military industrial complex, to pry massive amounts of public wealth from our pockets.

Al qaeda is a tiny cadre of cave dwelling extremists that have failed miserably at moving their message forward. They've been soundly rejected by the mainstream muslim community, which is precisely WHY they're cave dwellers, as well as why they have no coherent, unified, collective message or plans.

They are nothing more than a much less successful mirror image of the modern neocon movement in this country. Both are fringe extremists who hate Western ideals and set out to "save the world from itself."

Look no further than the anthrax killer (who struck AFTER 9/11, for those of you who insist that "we haven't been hit since 9/11") being uncaptured and ignored, our borders remaining wide open, our nuclear/chemical plants/refineries/communications hubs/etc. remaining wide open and insecure, bin laden remaining on the loose nearly 7 years after 9/11, and our "friends" in Saudi Arabia STILL funding schools that teach hatred for the west.

We are NOT fighting a "war on terror." What we are fighting is a war on the American middle class, and our national treasury, along with our nation's future.



"Its only sin was to refuse to turn OBL over to a lynch mob from the US."

Actually, the taliban DID offer to turn him over to a neutral Arab nation after 9/11, but Bush refused the offer.

disagree with Obama-- don't escalate
75% from 83 votes

Whether I do or don't agree, the very people who disapprove want him as the next President. That's the ultimate enigma.

Good question.

Is that an escalation however? We either go after Bin Laden or we get out of there. What else are we doing there?

"What else are we doing there? "

Securing prosperity for our petroleum fuel industry.

When we take the time and spend the money we get rid of gangs on our streets. Then we do stupid things like letting people cross the border that we do not even know, and they set up shop again. The do nothing action saves money, but in the long run we lose way more money and lives by doing nothing.

Obama is right to work more in Afghanistan, but can we do it?

Most of the world heroin comes from Afghanistan, and that will somehow
work its way onto streets in America is we do not get it right.

Also, I think Obama's idea of leaving Iraq and moving our forces to
Afghanistan is the most foolish thing I have ever heard, and was
completely unexpected from Obama, at least by me.

Maybe that foolish movie is intended to sway us to vote for McCain,
but I believe that although standing up to Islamic radicalism is
important, fixing America is critical.

We cannot move additional troops into Afghanistan without removing them from Iraq. Plain and simple. We do not have the troops to do both.

The trafficking of illegal drugs could be eliminated overnight by legalizing and regulating those drugs.

Clark, why don't you concentrate on something that stands a chance of happening. By the way, that was a rhetorical question ... you needn't spend 200 lines in a diatribe explaining why. The whole area is a threat, Afghanistan for its isolated and easily radicalized Muslim population, Pakistan for its nuclear weapons, Iran for we all know what, Iraq is a great place to put a beach head down that sooner of later were are going to need again. Yes, it's messed up, it's a quagmire, and Bush is the one who blew it, but it ain't so easy to clean up.

"Most of the world heroin comes from Afghanistan, and that will somehow
work its way onto streets in America is we do not get it right."

Bruce, the Talaban outlawed the growing of opeum poppies that also make heroin. The growing of those poppies was almost completely eliminated when we invaded the country. They went back to growing poppies to finance their resistance to the invaders, US.

There was no threat from the area before we invaded and upset the whole region with our colonialism. The best way to solve the problem is get the hell out and leave those people alone. We need a president with good sense and neither McCain nor Obama have a lick of sense.

We all know it and yet we let the media and the Neocons of both parties run the show. That make us even dumber.

Col. George ... do you know anything about life under the Taliban? I for one at least care about world historic sites and the human rights of women/people. The Taliban government is an abomination, as is radical Islam. It is something the world will be better off stopping now than waiting for all these countries to move into a nuclear and technological future.

If you want to blame American for 911 you go right ahead, you can make that argument, I just think that world view ends up in an absurdity.

"Clark, why don't you concentrate on something that stands a chance of happening."

Why don't you try not being an ignorant asshole?

The women still dress & act the same way as they did under Taliban. A few r the exception who r shunned by the majority of the Afghanis. It was their way of life, their culture... it was how it was before Taliban, during Taliban & after.

No Bruce I don't know anything about life under the Talaban nor do I want to know. I could care less what form of governmnet there is in Afghanistan. It is none of my business nor is it yours unless you decide to go there to live. So it is an abomination and radical Islam. So What? None of our business. Stop them? Why? What right do we have to tell other people how to live? I am sick and tired of the US trying to force every country in the world to bend do our ideas of government and rights. Maybe it is better than their system but it is still none of our business. The United States does not have the right to try to run the world.

As to their moving into a nuclear and technolicaly advanced nation. What is your problem? You want them to advance as a civilization but only so far? As to those countries uniting. That is not going to happen.

You talk as though Afghanistan had something to do with 9/11. Bull! They had no more to do with 9/11 than did Iraq. If any country other than our own had a role in 9/11 it was Saudi Arabil since most of the accused hijackers were Saudi. Why didn't we attack and destroy Saudi Arabia?

So OBL was in Afghanistan. They offered to turn him over to a neutral Islamic nation but Bush attacked anyway. Why? To capture one man? That is and was an idiotic move and allowed OBL every opportunity to escape to any place in the world.

Colon ... that is what people thought about Europe before two world wars.

Your last post does more to refute your facts and position than anything
I could say, so I'll just say read it.

I did not way Bush's attacks on either of Afghanistan or Iraq were
necessary at the time, but I do think now that it is necessary to
remain in a strategic place in the area until it is safe to withdraw.

You mean those two Constitutionally declared wars comminly called WW 1 and WW 2 that were supposed to be the war to end all wars both times?

FYI the Second WW was the last Constitutionally declared war the United States ever fought. Everything since then has been unconstitutional. Afghanistan and Iraq are just the latest unconstitutional conflicts.

The only strategic thing about the area is because of the OIL and only because of OIL.

"Colon"? Your site says you are in Palo Alto CA.

Yeah, I agree with your points about Congress declaring war ... but even WWII is thought that we did not get in early enough, and maybe never would have without Pearl Harbor. There is a realistic level to think of this stuff on and not just some ivory tower version of the Constitution.

I think, sadly, that the place of the Congress is to finally prosecute of cut off funding to a President like Bush if the concensus is there.

Just for the sake of argument ... what if it is about oil only ... is that not enough for you. Just because you are comfortable wherever you are, does that mean you are going to let the economy tank, or people freeze?

Sorry ... I meant Colonel ... I usually write CGW.

I could write a bit about the incident of Pearl Harbor, second hand from some who were there but I will not.

I agree it is a sad thing but I do believe Bush must be stopped. Impeachment is no easy thing and shames the nation but is necessary to show that the people will not put up with the nonsense. Cutting off the funding would be a good first step.

You say, what if it is about oil only. There is enough oil in the United States to supply oil to the nation (including growth) for the next 400 years. There is a field under eastern Montana that has some trillion barrels of oil just sitting there waiting to be pumped. Capped by the government.

No one is comfortable these days with he price of oil and gas so high. Other places it has gone down lately. In MT it has gone up about 20 cents in the last couple of weeks. go figure. Oil is no excues for the destruction we have caused in Iraq and that area. It is no excuse for war. The high price of a barrel of oil is a falsehood. We never got any oil from Iraq in the first place, not for several years. What little oil we import from that part of the worlld comes from Saudi Arabia. You remember Saudi Arabia, the country from which the people who are blamed for 9/11 came?

There is more to it than just oil and more to it than rougue states. I think it is a world domination and Bush is just the front man here in the US for those who want control. One World Government is behind it all. That would be a Facist government run and controlled by those who have the big bucks.

If I could I would erase the crude remark I made, Please forgive me.

It is not the oil per se, it is the strategic value of oil. Even if the US had enough oil, the rest of the world is dependent on the oil from the middle east. i think your analysis here is superficial and wishful. I read youor posts and I get someone who has their values in the right place, but perhaps someone who looks at the world with the eyes and symbols of the past. I assume we all fall victim to this at some point, but the reality of the world changes. The mental state of people seems to change. I am glad I was not born in this era, I think people grow up to be stresssed out idiots ... no wonder there is an explosion of autism because there is no coherence in the world view of society anymore, it is mostly noise, and I think people cannot take it. Only people with roots and a stable family survive this ... which I why I am so rabidly anti-classist and democratic. I have no patience for Libertarianism at all.

Bruce, I think we said the same thing in different ways. It is not oil it is control and oil represents control. He who controls the oil controls the world.

Libertarianism does have a tendacy to go too far, especially the older Libertarian Party. They have changed a lot over the years. The Constitution Party is more to my way of thinking but even they are a little out there. I look for the Republican party to have a big split and the old Republican phylosophy will split with the Neo Conservatives of today. The same will happen with the Democratic Party becaus they too have a big Neo Conservative element that is in conflict with the old time Democrats. We could wind up with 4 weak parties

"Only people with roots and a stable family survive this " Guess I shall not survive. Re; "The Runaway" from secondwindpublishing.com One thing I do not have is rootsand a stable family to fall back on.

This is another example where we see Clark Kent hugging his kryptonite collection too closely. Of course there is a “war” on terror. While there has not been a successful attack against the United States since 9/11, bombings in Europe continued for several years. Leaving Al Qaeda alone will only allow them to regroup and try something else.

Yes it is true that the spiritual core of the organization has started splitting because their approach is fundamentally opposite of what their fundamentalism actually preaches (as they resort to killing Muslims instead of infidels in order to attack their enemy) but there are always a next generation of youth who will follow any extreme philosophy.

But the real question of Afghanistan is not Afghanistan but Pakistan. Both the Taliban and Al Qaeda have safe havens across the border. The government has been trying to appease both groups through negotiations, allowing them to gather forces for attacks across the border. Unless you are going to ruffle the feathers of a nuclear power increased activity in Afghanistan is a quagmire even worse than Iraq was.

The only REAL "Roots" that any one has, and the only thing that will eventually save this entire world, is the Unity that comes from an understanding that there is a Generic God of Truth and Unconditional Love ... a common Spirit ...experienced as Spirituality based upon the Basic Equation of Truth ... BET (+=-) ... A Trinity where the Total stands for God containing Creation and the Spirit of God as (=) right in the center of every natural truth.

That is NOT a Religious view that requires a church with rules and dogma, the ONLY REQUIREMENT is to seek TRUTH and abide by TRUTH ... what a strange world concept where every so called leader we know, religious and secular, lies thriugh their teeth every time they speak.

Without that understanding of our common roots, we will continue on our conflicting ways of egotistic Dualism (+/-) where there will always be two sides in conflict across the Gap or Void (/) of misunderstanding, fear and hatreds competing for dominance of one OVER (/) the other or one VERSUS (/) the other ... when otherwise COOPERATION (=) with natural diversities seeking the same greater goals CREATE via SYNERGY rather than DESTRUCTION.

It is way past time to begin to think about this folks ... way past time.

(+=-)>(+/-)

PS ... as Christopher above suggests, the real reason for an increased presence in Afghanistan is still the original reason for going in there in the first place, the control of the area militarily ... that to protect for Oil interests (pipeline route) ... and now that Pakistan's puppet government that we supported has been dethroned and the people are becoming more accepting of the radicals in the north who are harbouring the "terrorists" and Taliban, we (neoCONs) fear the near future path of that entire nation ... it being always at odds with India and both having nuclear weapons ...

You can bet that the real reason to "move" to Afghanistan has more to do with the larger strategic plan of that whole middle eastern area including Iraq and especially Iran ...

The think tanks that plan for long range goals house the smartest people that big money can buy, they are neither stupid nor idiots, they just have a poor value system as to who they will sell their souls to.

The long range plans are for the control of this entire world and none of that can be separated from ancient religious prophecy either which suggests that we are approaching (actually well within) a cosmic season of great changes of all kinds ... the knowledge of also be suppressed by our "authorities" as a part of their long range plans for us all. Nefarious plans I might add.

The long range plan is control. He who controls the oil controls the world. That is the reason the massive amounts of oil within the US has not been tapped. We read an article the other day about some trillion barrels of oil under Eastern Montana and going over into N and S Dakota. Enough to supply oil for this nation for 400 years. Wells that have been capped by our government there and in Alaska. Government regs that prevent drilling in leased oil lands in several states.

Use up the oil from other countries first is the plan or else control it. Stopping the Facist regeme that is attempting to control all of the worlds oil is going to be hard. It seems that the roots of it are right here in the US

Col ... I hear a lot about oil in the US. I cannot substantiate it myself.
I know that if there is oil there, it is owned by someone, maybe some
on federal land and that if decsions are being made not to allow
exploitation of this, then we are not a market driven society for sure.
I have also heard of oil under Gull island in Alaska, and in the north
polar areas as well.

When we say wells have been "capped" it seems to have a certain
connoation, as in it means something more than the wellhead has
been closed. You are implying there is oil below in some large
amount. This information in almost all countries is very secret,
so I don't know how you could know what?

The long range plan is survival, and apparently that is even
more important than the feel-good idea that we have a
democracy ... and it probably should be.

What it does though is to make all of us just passengers
in this amusement park ride while an elite of supposedly
better quallity people with more integrity and foresight
rule our lives.

The problem with this I see is that the elite has gone
powermad and insane.

Bruce, I talked to a man today that worked at that big oil field. His job? helping to cap oil wells. I have personal knowledge of three fields in Montana alone that have wells drilled and ready to pump. All they need is to put the pump in place and start it up.

E Montana, up East of Glacer Park, down just NW of Great Falls. Three oil fields with pipe sticking up out of the ground and ready to be harvested.

Col, the other day Ed Mitchell, an astronaut who walked
on the moon said that he knew that there were UFOs
and had been briefed on them. One would think he
knows, but I do not believe in UFOs, at least as far
as space aliens are concerned. How about you?

The obscure point being that some experts do not know what they are talking about.

I just don't know Bruce. My position is that we are foolish to think we are the only "intelligent" life forms there is. Yet I don't believe or disbelieve.

I believe there is life, probably all over, we may even find it on Mars, but flaying saucers and interstellar space travel in real time ... I don think so.

I am not saying one way or another. If I ever see a UFO or meet someone/something from another planet, maybe then I will believe. Then again I might just have another Scotch, with a splash, no ice.

Yup, just like spiritual intelligence, very easy to discount it all as foolish ... until one has had the actual experience of a real relationship ... after which many things before unbelievable become very possible, even probable.

Jerry is obviously a space alien from another planet ... Jerry, can you explain the secret of interstellar drive more clear than the theory of (+=-) ??

Bruce, We do not discuss space travel and how it works. We don't want a bunch of humans coming and messing up our planets.

The thing in Iraq is winding down. The government is stable and they are able to handle any problems on their own. They are demanding our withdrawal. That would put us with only a few troops in the region. That would hardly fit in with Bush & Co's plans to invade Iran (based on the same lies that got us into Iraq). Solution? move the troops over to Afghanistan.

Conclusion - Obama's plan is no different than Bush's or McCain's

Putting men in Afghanistan is a very dangerous proposition in my opinion. It will be costly, dangerous and a strategic mistake.

I don't think war works. It seems to only make things worse.

Yes it would be a mistake. I would not want to be there when Iran retaliates from an attack by us, which is the only way they would attack.

el homo, If we had let them turn OBL over to a neutral nation and not bothered them we would definately have no problems with them now.

Peter, War don't work when the war is for the wrong reasons and the last war with a right reason was the Second WW.

Bruce, Capping oil wells, a secret? My hubby and father-in-law worked for years drilling and then capping oil wells. They didn't like it one bit, and eventually left the field, as they did not agree with this. I've known about it for years, myself. There's been no secret, except in keeping people ignorant as to the reasons why.

The field NW of Great Falls MT has been capped since I was a kid so at least 55 years.

Dorothy the reason given to the public has always been, so we can use up their oil before we have to go into our.

Isn't there a law against Hordiing?

Dorothy, if someone is running a business, saudis, iranians or us, why can't they decide when they want to produce their product and how much of it they want to produce. Drilling oil wells is primarily a way to explore to find oil, and then a way to extract it once it is found. Lots more wells are drilled than are pumping, and just saying wells are capped does not quantify how much each well costs to pump, and how much what comes out of each well costs to refine, and how much oil comes out of it.

I am not trying to argue but lots of stories omit even the thought of this, and as CGW say, what about the laws governing this ... what are they. I would not want someone telling me I have to drill and pump oil under my land. Now ... government land, that is different, and that may have something to do with ANWR? I don't know. I'd like to.

Bruce, The problem in this country is that even though there are wells capable of producing the government has to give permission even if it is on private or leased land. The oil industry is the most government controlled industry there is. That was one of Ron Paul's points. If the government let the oil companies pump oil from our own wells we would not have an oil shortage (which we don't, just high prices) If the government would let the oil companies build refineries we would be able to refine our oil. We would be oil independant of all other countries within a short period of time.

Actually there is no NEED to go into ANWR. There are capped wells In Alaska with a lake of oil under them that far exceed anything in ANWR.

BTW they do not Cap dry wells. They pull the pipe and abandon the site.

We need to relax the restrictions on Oil companies and exploration as well as building refineries. The oversite we need is to see that NO oil is exported to other nations for their use. This of course means that refineries must be built asap without all the government red tape which does no good and protects no environment.

Ditto what Dorothy H. says....

CGW ... do you know for a fact that the government is withholding permission for people to drill? And what does that mean ... like ANWR? Broad hand-waving generalities need to be backed up.

And you are not going to sell me on the Libetarian jerk Ron Paul who said that the government should sell off Yosemite to loggers who might if they feel like it leave some trees standing in order to charge people admission to see what is left of the Redwoods. This is colossal ignorance and evil, so even if he does have some sensible things to say all in all he is a dangerous criminal.

It is easy to talk about stuff we know nothing about ... or say I met a guy in a bar who said he was a wildcatter and there is plenty of oil.

The other thing is that we export "sour" oil to Japan, while we suck in "sweet" crude from Saudi Arabia, there is a reason for some of this stuff man.

"And you are not going to sell me on the Libetarian jerk Ron Paul who said that the government should sell off Yosemite to loggers who might if they feel like it leave some trees standing in order to charge people admission to see what is left of the Redwoods"

That is not true at all. In the first place Ron Paul is a Republican not a Libertarian In the second place it was not Yosemite National Park. It was and is an attempt to discredit a good man. The Redwood Forrest is not small and it has been logged for many years. What happened is that the Enviromentalist tree huggers tried to stop logging in an area of logging.

"The other thing is that we export "sour" oil to Japan, while we suck in "sweet" crude from Saudi Arabia,"

If we do that we are violating a federal law. I tried to look up how much oil we export and found that we export no oil because it is against the law.

ANWR - ANWR I have been told has about 50 billion barrels of oil under it. Gull Island has a capped well with 100 times as much oil. the Aluthian Islands have a capped well with more than that which was capped by order of none other than Jimmy Carter as soon as it was discovered.

Well, what we have all been told or what we think we know just leads to more and more talk and arguing. I would describe Ron Paul as a Libertarian and I do not like his vision despite the fact that I think he is an OK guy and a reasonable good congressman for texas.