I agree the "freedom of speech" is as American as the Bill of Rights. I agree that stating your beliefs without fear of persecution is what makes this country great. However, crossing the line to "hate" language is a reality – and one often experienced on Gather.com, in the streets, on the job and among family members.
What is the difference? Can you identify remarks that violate a person or race's civil rights? Do you know the difference between stating your opinion and spreading hatred?
Is there any kind of hate speech on the Internet that is not protected by the First Amendment?
The U.S. Constitution protects Internet speech that is merely critical, annoying, offensive, or demeaning. However, the First Amendment does not provide a shield for libelous speech or copyright infringement, nor does it protect certain speech that threatens or harasses other people. For example, an e-mail or a posting on a Web site that expresses a clear intention or threat by its author to commit an unlawful act against another specific person is likely to be actionable under criminal law. Persistent or pernicious harassment aimed at a specific individual is not protected if it inflicts or intends to inflict emotional or physical harm. To rise to this level, harassment on the Internet would have to consist of a "course of conduct" rather than a single isolated instance. A difficulty in enforcing laws against harassment is the ease of anonymous communication on the Internet. Using a service that provides almost complete anonymity, a bigot may repeatedly e-mail his or her victim without being readily identified.
http://www.partnersagainsthate.org/about_hate_crimes/faq.html#11
Most websites promoting equality and basic human rights suggest the best way to combat offenses of this nature is to counteract with truth and tolerance. To that end, the Gather group has been extremely successful.
It is also helpful to contact the Office of Civil Rights and other organizations when bigotry and racism crosses the line. I personally copy and paste to a Microsoft Word file, all posts related to immigration. This creates a permanent record of those who would suggest bodily harm to a minority and of course, once expressed, the odds are that the individual, at some point, may follow through. I would suggest that other advocates of humanity create similar files.
I think we are doing all we can to combat the spread of racial/ethnic intolerance, bigotry based upon national origin. We are collectively making Gather.com and the online community a place to be proud of. As difficult as it is at times and as frustrated as we become – this is not a battle to be abandoned. We defend equality, we protect the future of our nation and leave our children a terrific legacy, best explained by Martin Luther King, Jr:
I say to you today, my friends, so even though we face the difficulties of today and tomorrow, I still have a dream. It is a dream deeply rooted in the American dream. I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal." I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia, sons of former slaves and the sons of former slave owners will be able to sit down together at the table of brotherhood. I have a dream that one day even the state of Mississippi, a state sweltering with the heat of oppression, will be transformed into an oasis of freedom and justice. I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character....
When we allow freedom to ring, when we let it ring from every village and every hamlet, from every state and every city, we will be able to speed up that day when all God's children, black men and white men, Jews and gentiles, Protestants and Catholics, will be able to join hands and sing in the words of the old Negro spiritual: "Free at last. Free at last. Thank God Almighty, we are free at last."
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Comments: 66
March on...
On compassion and charity, to those of you crying we MUST have a heart and show charity to 20 million illegal alien criminals:
"Those who would administer wisely must, indeed, be wise, for one of the serious obstacles to the improvement of our race is indiscriminate charity."
Andrew Carnegie
To those who insist our president must side with these criminal illegal aliens, I give you this:
"There is nothing in the Constitution that authorizes or makes it the official duty of a president to have anything to do with criminal activities."
Sam(uel) James Ervin, Jr.
We can apply just laws without respect to color if our law enforcement and judicial systems can be held to high standards in that regard.
I don't believe that the immigration issue is, at its core, racist. The fact that most of the illegal immigrants to this country pour across our Southern rather than Northern border makes it appear that way.
I do believe that some people who are for securing our borders and for ejecting illegal immigrants have racist motivations. Not all.
It isn't a coincidence that the web game "Border Patrol" is one of the highest hits on a white supremacist site...
I'd hazard a guess that some within La Raza are also racists, would bet the farm on it as they say. That being said, you are correct...the inescapable reality of this illegal alien infestation comes from our Southern Border, and further, the inescapable reality is most illegals coming into America happen to be of Latin heritage. Realizing this, groups like La Raza have tried to turn this into a race issue, play the race card as a wedge.
I have two "acquaintances" who go down to the border. One is a Minuteman. He brings his gun, and can't wait to kill an illegal.
The other is from a human rights organization. He goes down to see the Minutemen harrass people so he can film it and turn it in as evidence of abuse.
Both are idiots.
Guilt for wanting to deport CRIMINALS....don't hold your breath, I hold not guilt for my beliefs on this matter. My beliefs, my feelings are based on what I have seen with my own eyes....I see them as vermin, as my experiences involving them lead me to believe they are vermin.
Perceptions can be wrong. If the crime if a brutal attack on say a child, it's OK for us to show outrage, but if we are losing our jobs, seeing our wages depressed, or having the values of our homes destroyed, it's NOT OK for us to show outrage? That seems to be what you are saying Debbie....because it has not happened to you personally, our experiences are false, made up? Even if your experiences are real, they are discounted?
It's a difficult thing, Jackie. As the owner of a bulletin board (BBS) that practices self moderation, I have struggled with it repeatedly. According to the Terms of Service (TOS) of my host company, I am responsible, as owner, for the content on my site if it crosses the legal line. We regularly dance on that line. However, I have only once had to intervene. One member located the physical address of another member and threatened to catch her in the parking lot of a nearby c-store she frequented so that she could "pound her to a bloody pulp in the way she so richly deserved."
That is a specific threat to a specific person and is actionable under the law. Because I possessed the IP (Internet Protocol) address of that member, it became my responsibility to not only report her to her own ISP (Internet Service Provider) for abuses, but remove her from my site. While I cannot be held accountable for the thoughts and words of my members, had I failed to take action and bodily harm had actually occurred, I could be held responsible for not at least reporting the problem. Negligence is a scary thing.
I will fight unto the death a person's right to speak their minds. It matters not one whit whether I agree with them or not. However, when that right to speak infringes on another's right to peacefully co-exist, under the law, it is my responsibility to not only speak, but take counter measures.
Fortunatley for the more violent among us, they have not specified a personally identifiable target. To do so would be a clear violation. Unfortunatley for the rest of us, until they do, there isn't much recourse. Like your log, all we can do is document, fight back with reason and sanity, and pray it never comes to anything more than angry words filled with hate.
Everyone on the Pro-Illegal/Open Borders side wants to discount our REAL LIFE negative experiences with illegals, wants to discount our real life loses in this issue, and bring out the racist paint brush and call us bigots. They want us to be politically correct in our expressions, hide our rage under properly worded phrases. They try to repackage the discussion and public perceptions by relabeling illegals with terms like undocumented worker, undocumented citizen, or displaced global workers. They are illegals, DEFACTO CRIMINALS who are guilty of no less than four crimes.
I've deflected nothing....I hate illegals, have JUST CAUSE to hate them, has nothing to do with being a racist, has everything to do with REAL LIFE EXPERIENCES that give me just cause to hate them. You and others may not like that, may not want to acknowledge my own experiences, but makes them none the less real. Don't confuse justified rage and hate with racism and bigotry. People hate child molesters, no one is on these boards calling them bigots or racists. People out rapists and murderers, and again no one is on these boards calling them racists and bigots. I hate illegals, have suffered first hand from their actions, as have MILLIONS of other Americans.
I agree with all you have posted thus far.
I'm Hispanic.........am I a racist too?
Not at all familiar with the groups you mentioned. But you said they were "gangs" so I'm assuming that violence is part of their gang culture... Gangs and organized crime sometimes fall into racial or ethnic bounds, but often they don't.
So, I'm not really sure what your point is. If there are black gangs somewhere, is that a reason to want to alienate all blacks?
I may have missed your point, but I think it has something to do with my idiot friend...
Why did you use no less than seven exclamation points? Are you shouting at me for some reason?
If you think that the Minutemen serve some purpose, great. Just stay away from my idiot, triggerhappy friend.
More importantly, with all of that enthusiasm you have for the "keeping our borders safe from all those Mexicans", be ESPECIALLY careful of my other friend with the camera, who can't wait to take an out of context photo of you violating the rights of others...
Again, why are you shouting at me?
Haha! I've been called a racist on these issues before, and by none other than a member of my own family!! She is an educator in a school district here, and is admittedly part of one of the Marxist movements that wish to take over the southwest. I "suspect" that Senobia and her cronies are also among those, judging by their pro illegal comments.
Porgie, have you noticed that no-one here has commented on the info I posted in various threads concerning Aztlan and Mexica?
LaRaza NOT in Texas???!!
http://www.nclr.org/section/texas/
You do have one point right...I am an interesting character, probably more so than you even realize....in fact, I'll even let you in on a little secret....despite my views on the immigration issue, I am opposing a politician who most closely supports my views on this issue to support a candidate that is more closely intune with your or Jackie's positions on the issue...Why? There is more to life and America than this one issue, and I have more concerns where Iraq is concerned, and that takes precedent over the illegal issue. As they say, politics makes strang bedfellows. Hopefully, my involvement in the campaign will get him elected, while also tempering his views on illegals, bringing them more in line with mine.
Great questions! Here are the answers:
A. I'm American first and foremost.
B. I'm a veteran of the United States Army.
C.Yes, those who fly the Mexican flag in our country don't want to be Americans, are putting it in your face, and THINK they are going to take over this country.
They DO NOT speak for me.
You're very welcome! And say hello to your father!
"Supposed" agenda?? It's on their own websites, and I didn't mention ALIPAC OR LaRaza although LaRaza has a big part in it.
By the way, my father was also a vet. WWII, Omaha Beach. He wasn't fighting for MEXICO!!
If a Mexican wants to fly their flag on their front porch to celebrate a special day in their own heritage, I am fine with that, but would find it disrespectful for them to fly the Mexican flag on one of our special days, such as the 4th of July, or 9/11.
If they are driving around after their soccer team won a BIG match, I am fine with that, UNLESS they are still rooting for Mexico to beat AMERICA....think back to the American Soccer teams match against Mexico out in LA where they SPIT on our players. Those people have NO PRIDE IN AMERICA, do not want to be a part of America, and unilaterally should be deported.
They want to fly their Mexican Flag on a flag pole in their front yard, it had best be UNDER the American flag.
By the way, for those who are interested, yes I am a Veteran, served in the Navy.
H.G. : Good to see you back.
People like Jackie want to undermine the American middle class.
Where is Snobeia ?
Should we say " I Pledge Alligence to the Mexican Flag " ? I don't think so .
Naturalization Oath of Allegiance
to the United States of America
Oath:
"I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the armed forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God."
I personally am against illegal immigration, but not because I have any dislike or prejudice against Mexican people. I realize that they come from a desperately poor country and are looking for a way to feed their families. I sympathize with anyone who is poor, BUT the fact is that many other immigrants who came to America, from parts of the world much further away than Mexico, were from equally impoverished situations, yet they went through the legal process of becoming an American citizen.
I do NOT, however, think that, in order for me to express my opinion, I need to make hateful remarks, state stereotypical views about a specific ethnic group or make threats against anyone who chooses to disagree with me.
My feeling is just that, if someone, wherever they come from, really respects our country, then they will follow our laws. No other immigrants before now have insisted upon having the laws bent just for them and that is probably why there is so much resentment. If we set the precedent by compromising one law, then it will be that much easier to compromise others.
Thanks for the instruction on what shouting is. Using exclamation points more than once typically indicates shouting.
Point out where I claim that Minutemen have caused any violence and get back to me.
I'm relating my personal experience with both sides of this argument, debate, or issue. You don't have a clue where I stand, so you can step off your holier than thou soapbox and go back to discussing issues instead of attacking other people.
H.G.
I'm not living in any of those states. I've heard of La Raza, but don't know diddly about them.
Although laws are bound to change at the moment, right now that is the LAW.
And as many on the boards state - we MUST respect the law as it stands.
Angela, you sound like a very reasonable person, so I'll ask you this: what was the legal process the "many other immigrants" (I assume in the past) went through to immigrate to the US? Is it currently available to people around the world who wish to do the same?
They are part of the broader issue and must be taken into account. You can't deny what you have seen and heard since last May, coming from illegals who deliberately disrespect the U.S., it's flag, and it's people. I'm not against helping people out in the cold...I'm just not going to burn my house down to keep them warm.
On the four crimes...and mind you, that is a minimum:
1. Being and or entering America is one crime-If you overstayed your visa, or you illegally crossed into America, this is one crime.
2. A lot of people do not realize this, but STAYING in America is a separate punishable offense.
3. Working in America as an illegal is against the law.
4. If you are working in America as and illegal, you are either A) working under the table, and not paying your federal taxes, which is a crime or B) working with the use of a false ID.
That is four crimes. Now, lets take for instance the whole fake ID thing. Many people use these FAKE ID's for more than just getting a job. They open up bank accounts, apply for credit cards from different companies, so forth and so on. Each of those are actually SEPARATE CRIMINAL CHARGES.
Further, a large portion of illegals are driving with no license, and no insurance, both of which are again criminal violations. Others are living in one state, but getting cars licensed in other states with lack laws, and that is actually illegal. Here in New York, you have THIRTY DAYS in which to change your cars title into a New York title, submit proof of instate, insurance coverage on said car (rates here are higher than in other states), have a vehicle inspection sticker, and New York plates on said vehicle. Failure to do these things would create FOUR seperate citations.
Now, let's take all these crimes, and factor in another thing...what can start out as a misdemeanor can quickly change. IE, many illegals have been caught, deported, and re-entered America....now, the crime has been esculated, is now a felony. Then
many illegals were stopped, given a citation, then dissappeared into our society, never bother showing up for their hearing date. Those people now have and arrest and deport warrant waiting for them to show up, be stopped by a police on some other charge.
"One is a minuteman who goes down to the border, brings his gun, can't wait to shoot an illegal" Kinda implies your friend is going to the border to cause some violence to an illegal, just stating that I had not heard of any. Did I say that you said he had committed violence. I already told you I was sorry about the !!! points. So where do you stand Eric?
Undecided.
There are boys and girls getting killed in Iraq right now, people are getting killed in the streets of US cities, old people are having to choose between food and medicine, terrorists want to kill us, and we're grinning because gas is "only" $2.50 a gallon. And, the economy ain't doing so great at the moment.
None of this has to do with how many Mexicans come across the border.
If you all think this is the most important issue, have at it.
Sorry, I don't agree with you.
What's the cost of the lives of my neighbors and friends killed in Iraq so far? How much money is it going to take to replace my niece's father? What's the value of the little girl's life who was shot in a drive by yesterday? What value do you place on the misery my proud neighbor places on not asking for help when her money has run out before she's paid her food bill?
Did the Mexicans do that?
Your neighbors need you. You're looking the wrong way.
I think you all need some perspective.
The cost of American lives lost in Iraq is priceless. No amount of money can bring them back. I don't know if the little girl was killed by an illegal alien gang or not, but illegal alien gangs are on the rise and will only compound the gang problem...agree?
And your neighbor who is running out of money... well, you know the story of why OUR costs of certain necessities is going up, i.e. Medical, Prescriptions, insurance etc.
Oh well - who knew we were a country of fools? Obviously the Republicans.
Unfortunately the internet is a forum where anonymously, a person can spew hatred and walk away. That's part of it, I guess.
On the other hand, people who have the best intentions can be heard clearly through the propaganda - and that matters more than threats and anger.
Calling attention to the level of discrimination, the level of hatred, the level of ignorance based solely upon a person's nationality - assists people to make the right choice and perhaps look at the world a little differently.
Racism has no place in government. Period.
What is really alarming is the number of politicians spewing the same stuff - often using terms and demonstrating extreme anger at this population....the worse thing is - many demonstrate the truth -- this is not about the legality of their presence -
This is about the color of one's skin. This is about the language they speak. This is about culture.
And I don't mean just Hispanics. Haitians are persecuted even worse than Hispanics or Mexicans.
You said: "This is about the color of one's skin. This is about the language they speak. This is about culture."
WRONG!!! This is about the preservation of the U.S., and the quality of life that it affords to the American people who for generations have paid their dues. This is NOT United Way headquarters. Now go ahead, call ME a racist!
Sometimes you make some very intelligent comments, and then you turn around and play the " RACE " card. This has nothing to do with race. Yes, it's a fact that most of the estimated 20 million illegal immigrants in this country are Mexican, so they naturaly are getting most of the attention, but it has nothing to do with race, it's about numbers.
Just look at H.G. He is Hispanic and he isn't afraid to punch his own people in the nose for coming here illegaly. Look at comedian Carlos Mencia who is also Hispanic. He always has jokes on his show about Mexicans coming here illegaly. He often refers to them as " beaners ".
I have a Mexican American friend who absolutely despises his own people coming here illegaly. He told me the other day " If they want to eat a taco, then they should go back to Mexico ! "
Most people who play the " RACE " card have a chip on their shoulder about their own ethnic heritage, and that goes for African American's as well. I have some black friends who tell me " nigger " jokes, and then there is the black guy who cops an attitude towards me because he doesn't like the way that I look at him, and then there is his reply " what, you got a problem with me because I'm black ? ". In fact, I don't have a problem with him because he's black, he has a problem with himself because he is black. Get the picture ?
I have written a few articles about other ethnic immigrants such as the Chinese and the Indians ( not Native American Indians ) , and I have received very few comments on those threads. I've received high ratings, but very few comments.
I'm not in this thing for ratings. For Christ's sake, we only get paid if we get 3,000 points per month, and then we only get paid $ 50.00. If anyone is desperate for $ 50.00 , just e-mail me and I will send it to you ( just trying to make a point , just joking )
I'm tired of chasing my favorite posters from thread to thread, that is Jackie, Porgie, Debbie C., H.G. and beleive it or not, Senobia ! Also Author ! ( no offense towards any of you )
Don't cry to me when the NSA shows up at your door step.
I will say that I'm thankful that all of this will happen while I'm young enough to fight!
I thought I'd give to something neutral in an effort to be DIPLOMATIC. Perhaps a children's rights organization or something similar.
If we're going to spend all this time debating and gathering points - may as well not feel guilty about it.
As for the rest - I have read your posts, Timothy. Don't give up - we may not agree but you keep right on posting, honey.
Later!
JB