In both high school and college it was drilled into me that if I wanted to write anything, I had to have an outline. Even if I was writing a letter to my aunt, I should start with an outline; if for no other reason I would garner her approval for having obviously employed that proper writing device.
Outside of class, I have never used an outline, not that I can remember anyway. This may have caught up with me, but I guess I won't really know until I finish a book that someone would read and not come back with, "What is this mess."
It's my understanding that Stephen King sits down and writes many dozens, perhaps a hundred or more pages at a setting. At this pace he could avoid repeating himself because his short term memory would come back with, "I just said that." Despite all the whining about his work being - let me put words in the critics' mounths here - "too accessible", I think he's a fine writer. Being very much a non-fiction guy I don't read stories, but I've listened to a couple of his works on tape and thought they were just fine, for stories.
Now, I don't know if Mr. King uses an outline or not. Perhaps his mind sets up an outline with or without his active participation. I certainly believe this is what goes on in my head, though I strongly believe the mind utilizes organizational principles that put the arts of logic and math to shame. Of course my stories are "organized" even if they're not written down, but I couldn't tell you what those organizational principles are - not with any completeness anyway - and I sure as heck can't access the source code in my gray-drive in any way that would allow me to write even a short post on the subject. I believe I could, and you would probably encourage me to do so because it is after all my own mind (and science has shared a great many discoveries about these things), but I strongly suspect I would instead - despite all my best efforts to organize my evidence and train of thought - I'd be, for the most part, making it up.
I'm happy to talk about it though. Just please don't assume I am, or think I am, any sort of authority.
I'm wondering what other non-outliners do to compensate for a supposed lack of planning in their own writing.
Since Gather is a writing site at least occasionally visited by English majors, I would expect at least one vigorous defense of the outline, and I welcome that also.
So:
- Do you consciously organize your writing or not?
- If you do, would you call your method an outline?
- Has word processing (cut-and-paste, delete, find, undo) given you tools to organize your work in a new and different way?
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Comments: 143
Poems just flow...................they come most naturally for me.
I used to never write directly onto the computer, but find I do it more and more. I was worried that it wouldn't feel "organic", but it did simplify some issues for me.
Word processing has made it easier to edit, but I do not use it for significant changes in the flow of a document ... that is developed before the words are committed to the page.
Blessings and best wishes - S.
I also keep a journal and jot down ideas, sentences, word images.
Personllly, I have never used an outline for fiction. I would consider it the equivalent of a pair of concrete boots. Each book I write starts with an idea for either the beginning or the ending. I have a rough idea, when I start, where I'm going to end up, but I trust my characters to take me their via their own route. I do a ton of back-and-forthing in the process, thinking of a new element on page 73 and having to go back to page 13 to plant the seed for it, etc. I know this method wouldn't/couldn't work for everyone, but it works for me.
Best to all,
Dorien
That said,I outline very broadly. I'll write down situations and go from there. My only problem of late is finding time to write. I don't have a word program on this computer, and it's either on Gather or Google Docs that I write. It's not very convenient, but I manage. Maybe one day I'll actually finish this story, and either look for a publisher or self publish. Maybe one day.
I edit in my head too. So I kind of "live" a situation over and over, change it, tweak it and what have you before it ever hits digital paper. You could probably say I'm my own worst critic.
Debra, I too do well to think about something quite a while before I write about it, and I'm sure it falls into an outline of sorts in my mind. Then I sit down and it all just spills out. I am very likely to then move blocks of text, replace "science discovers and disseminates" with "science shares", and delete whole sections after I've incorporated bits and peices into other areas of the work. I'm big on revisions, and have even had a piece turn out to be something entirely different from what I started out to say.
Svetlana, I'd say the best of my work pretty much come straight out of me, though I could be fooling myself.
There's always sort of one up in my head, as I start the novel with preconceived notions, but that always changes when the characters start to want it THEIR way !!!
ha ha
For real writing (smiles!) I free write first. Put on good music, and close my eyes, and just write anything that comes into my head. I do this for about 20-30 minutes. Eyes closed, otherwise I start editing too early. Then I re-read it. Then I re-write it, moving stuff around, fleshing it out, getting it organized.
Writing is a burden and a joy. Probably to all of us.
Good article, good comments.
Wilka
deb
Jeff, I think "flesh it out" also describes what I do. The topic makes me think about a few things, and those make me think of other things. I stop when I'm done or tired of it.
Dorien, if it were not for the word processor, I'd think you'd have a lot of trouble with the "back and forthing". I'm challenged by this, because when I revisit an idea I consciously use different words to talk about it. So when I go to search for what I said about something, I have trouble finding it unless I search for synonyms.
Stacy, you could say I have a book in the works, but right now each of the "chapters" is a stand-alone memory/story. There is indeed repetition and that will be a challenge when I go to fit them together.
Thank you, Ashley, for the Stephen King tip and also the mention of his book. I knew he'd written such a book and forgot about it.
Joe, outlining later is a great idea. I have to think about whether I do that. I never lay out anything 1, 2, 3, but I certainly go back and reorganize.
I no longer use an outline so to speak, but I make notes on scrap paper of what I want to about here at Gather or other places, then make quick little notations about what pops into my head that I want to write about.
Even with this little scrap notes that I make along the way, I would be stuck without the edit, delete tabs on the laptop, these are a tremendous help.
Have a great day and I look forward to the return of your garage sale finds. I was able to go to two garage sales yesterday with Momma and I did get a couple of great items, but we are in southeast Louisiana and we were wearing shorts up until yesterday afternoon
Kathy, my favorite writer is Jerome K. Jerome, who gets off on rants. These are free writing and often have nothing to do with the story, but it's in this that I find his best work. I do this too, not because I want to imitate him, but because seeing him do it let me know it was okay for me to "digress".
Karen, in some ways I'm highly organized (like grocery shopping) and in others I just want structure to go play somewhere else. Writing has enough structure without me trying to impose more on it.
Elizabeth, I just write prose. I have a love/hate going with poetry, because I think poetry has to have rhythm and rhyme at the end of the sentence - and this is very hard, leaving me struggling over syllables. I do write in a "dreamy" style sometimes, and I've had commentors compliment me on my "free verse". I get that, but I wouldn't call it poetry, even though I really like writing it.
Deborah, you bring up notes ("plot ideas, character names, researched material"). This is an interesting, related topic that I'm for some reason fascinated with. I'm not sure why.
(I'm just barely keeping up with this thread. Pardon my delays.)
Poetry is often intrinsic, bubbling up as I settle in before the computer. Like Marianne, I collect words and phrases, sometimes for months, before letting the words sprout on "paper".
Of course, I'll bet that every writer does it their own way.
leaving plenty of room to grow during the
writing process. Yes, intro, body, and
conclusion have been established upstairs.
Most of my works are short essay.
For web sites, I have a 3X5 cork board
with index cards pinned all over it.
(Too much to remember)
I keep track of pages and chapters
using individual notepad files and
folders on the desktop, all stuffed
into a master desktop folder, named
after the project.
I also use a brainstorming notebook
for songs, a spiral notebook with
15 or so sections, one for each song,
with plenty of blank pages in
each section. That's the creative
book, which allows a place to jot
down ideas before they get away.
Good idea for a thread. I'll be interested
in seeing how others work.
Novels can be complicated, depending on genre, if you've got a lot of characters and subplots, it is necessary to keep track of what you're doing, by not wasting time, and the outline is the BEST way to get it done. Even Stephen King in On Writing noted that he used an 'outline' of sorts on The Stand, which he's been told by fans was his best ever. I've stopped reading him, actually, think he could benefit from an outline a little more often!
I can't finish my historic or horror novels without knowing if I have a story to begin with. I've tried. Doesn't work.
Monette
www.chasingthevrykolakas.info
Heather, I'm with you, and I can understand why others don't do it my way.
This is all really helpful.
Stephanie, now that you mention it, I am using notes these days. A topic presents itself, and I want to start thinking about it. I start a Gather post and just put little phrases in it, each about some aspect of the idea I want to talk about. I may come back from time to time and add new phrases or start fleshing out some of the ones already in there. When I really turn in to write such a thing, I take the various phrases in the order I think makes most sense, and it is at this point that I would say I "organize the parts into an impromptu outline". This sort of outline is not planned out ahead, but it just evolves as the writing goes along.
Larry, the subconscious has immense ability. I'm absolutely convinced of that and I now do my best to avoid "thinking" about things. Lemme splain. I have the question, problem or lesson laid out in front of me with as little explanation or discussion as is reasonably possible. I then "sleep on it". I come back the next day and say, "Okay, now let's go over it again, this time going into detail." I find I can tackle just about anything in this manner. On the contrary, if you want to talk something out with me in a half hour and come away with a set of "next steps", and are convinced our flimsy human logic can compare to "sleeping on it", you will be sorrily disappointed. I know at least a couple people who think I must be stupid, but that's their problem. I do not - will not - "think things out"; I prefer to keep track of what I've come to think about it over a period of time.
When I am ready to start working on the idea, I write down the basic plot points that I want to cover because it helps to solidify what my my feelings are about where I think the book will be going and makes it easier to see whether it flows or not, so yes, I do start with a loose outline of sorts. I tend to think of it as the bare bones on which to hang the story.
Once I actually start writing, I review the outline, start putting words on the page and promptly forget the outline and let the characters take me where they will. I don't check back to the outline until after I finish because a story that takes on a life of its own is the goal - as that is the story that wants to be told.
I do sometimes use structured outlines for non-fiction (business) writing, but that never satisfies the creative urge.
I used to have to start writing on paper and then after a page or two transfer to a keyboard, but now, I start with the cursor blinking on a blank page and just let it flow. It is so much easier to let things flow out through my fingers and I can almost keep up with my thoughts that way. Occasionally I will move chunks of writing around to restructure the flow, but most of my editing is tweaking words here and there.
I really like Kathy's eyes closed method. I may have to try that.
I also may jot down -- again, partway through the writing -- the dates events/conversations are happening so I can keep track of who said/did what/when, in order to keep characters doing what they need to be doing when they need to have been doing it. Please don't diagram that sentence.
Monette, when I write about an imaginary person, I construct a sort of "straw man" and my mind begins to hang prejudices and fantasies on that person. These are very enduring in my mind, so once the straw man is up, the character remains fairly constant. That may not be a direct response to your comments, but they triggered me thinking about that.
Wow, Sheila. I think I may have written an outline or two after the piece was done also. That's so funny.
It works beautifully for me. AND now they have an online beta version that allows collaborative work over the Internet - and so far, tis free to use
Cathy, a lot of the technical writing I do (and I write a lot of tutorials) simply follows a process or task, so the actual flow of the work being described translates into the flow of the writing.
Tracy, when I'm doing technical writing I leave "@@" wherever something isn't finished. This is like a note to come back to it. Sometimes I'll just sit there and do a term search for @@, and see which ones I've resolved and which I haven't. This has proven a very useful technique, because if I search something for that @@ and don't find it, I'm done.
Joseph, I once read a short piece by Paul Simon (I wish I could find it again), where he talked about writing songs in a similar way. He would write out a story. Then he'd go back and change the wording to be more evocative, and finally the hard part of finding words that rhyme without sounding like they were chosen because they rhyme (like "it cuts like a knife; she's out of my life" - please).
Flit! That sounds very interesting. The performance artist in me cringes, but the real live person is intrigued.
When I'm ready to start, I just write. No outline, plot notes, character bios, nothing. I have no idea where the story-line will go or who will be involved (although usually by about the halfway mark I have some idea). Also - and I know this will sound very odd - I don't read what I have written until the whole thing is finished. I do this because by nature I'm a worrier, and if I go back and start fussing over this and that I know that the flow will stop.
The story I'm currently writing is an exception as I've had to create a new style and language to be able achieve what I'm after, so I needed to try it out and make sure it was working - but this was not related to the plot.
Other exceptions are I might need to go back and check where I'd last left a character or something of that nature.
Does it work? For me, yes, in the sense that I get the job done. Done well? That's not for me to judge.
Being able to type and save electronically has made a huge difference. Easier to read, and easier to modify. No need for an outline really.
Now to address Stephen King's ability to sit and write a hundred pages at a time. I've been told by someone who worked with him that he tends to use substances which can cause a person to do that sort of thing. The person who told me was a fan of King's writing, and was rather let down by the discovery.
The snippets get incorporated most of the time, but not always......it all depends. I try to keep it "in the moment".
MJ, I have had classes where I needed to submit my outline early on, and then I had to stick to it. Man, was that a boring paper. I'm amazed sometimes to see the creativity and quality that comes from some people who perform "under the influence". I had a musician friend who worked playing guitar in restaurants and bars, always smashed out of his gourd. I asked him how he could play so well when he was at risk of falling off his chair, and he said "It helps to practice drunk."
Sometimes, JustMe, the snippets may find their way in by inspiring something else. I'm told that Garrison Keillor may use things people send to him by email, but if he does, they wouldn't recognize it. I once sent him an email saying I'd flown over New York city for the first time, and it looked to me like a porcupine whose parachute didn't open. I'd like to think he did something with that.
Do you get the idea that I don't have a set practice? Righto! Different strokes for different days and subjects.
For book length, I do.
- If you do, would you call your method an outline?
I'd call it a skeletal outline or, what screenwriters refer to as a "step outline."
- Has word processing (cut-and-paste, delete, find, undo) given you tools to organize your work in a new and different way?
I keep notes for volume topics in files viewed in Word outline. I'm about to start writing 4-5 columns about exercise. I have been collecting thoughts and ideas for 6 months or so.
Each thought is an "item." I read them over and look for common themes, type those in as a heading and click and drag items under the appropriate heading. Organize the items and you have a rough for a column.
When looking for a humorous take on a topic I will sometimes use "organic outlining," really a form of visual brainstorming.
I did NOT outline this comment before I typed it.
After the first draft, I do a sort of outline. I take those giant sized post-its, and put the Chapter Number, a one-two sentence description of that chapter. If it is a pivot point. What characters were introduced. I put those post-its on a huge sheet of posterboard. Then I can rearrange things easily, make sure I have adequately introduced/described characters, have the correct plotting arcs, etc.
But if I sat down and outlined the entire book in the beginning, I would be tired of it before I started writing the actual story
As far as tools - I love my word processor (I use MS Word), for it's outlineing feature. I use the Heading tools to create my outline by putting in a level 2 or 3 header in for each scene with a one-line descriptor of the scene. It's a great tool, and really helps me with not only plot and subplot structure, but I anticipate it will help with pacing (when I get that far on my rewrite).
I'm not published, so who knows if my method is a good one or not . . . but it works for me. I enjoy the rewriting/reworking almost as much as the initial drafting. It's layering in the layers, nuances and twists, and getting them to really work.
Thanks for starting this discussion thread. I'm anxious to go back and see what others have written.
Really cool tool. If you're interested in checking it out, go to http://www.spacejock.com/yWriter.html
I start with the story idea (character identifies problem in life and sets out to resolve it), develop the characters I'll need to carry out that idea, and start writing. If I have developed those characters successfully, they will walk me through the story. Having an outline would only inhibit them.
With fiction, I mostly put a lot of time into characters--making sure their personality and background are detailed enough to be believable. I've found that if you get the characters right, they will drive your plot. I've only done one story recently (The Christmas Mural--I had it posted on Gather last month) where the plot came before I knew the characters. That was different for me, but it worked out.
If I had to do an outline for fiction, I'd want a storyboard as opposed to a traditional outline. I'm not a fantastic artist, but I think it's more useful to think of things in terms of scenes and camera angles--at least with a story that requires a moderate to fast pace, which many people are now used to reading.
Kenna, thanks for reminding me of the idea of pacing. All of my characters are real people, so I need only think of what they'd say about what I have them doing, and that's where they might get uncooperative.
But your succinct, Greg.
Well put, Sandy: "If I have developed those characters successfully, they will walk me through the story. Having an outline would only inhibit them. "
Patricia, I like the principle that characters have to be believable. I've had to walk home from work to record a song idea from time to time. It was worth it. I've carried recording devices, but always seem to forget it when a song idea comes (there may be a causal relationship at work there).
I also make lists. It's a bummer to get through 300 pages of writing and find that I've changed Jake's name to Whitney.
On most days though, since my writing time is so fragmented, I simply sit down and start typing. After two or three pages of "word soup," something will catch my eye and ear and give me a subject or a place to start.
Excellent post Ron.
- Do you consciously organize your writing or not? Not as I'm in the creative stage of writing, but I'm obsessive outside the creative period. I keep time lines, character profiles, pictures of my characters, count the words in chapters to keep them all somewhat consistent in length - lots of stuff others probably will consider weird.
- If you do, would you call your method an outline?. Maybe a post outline?
- Has word processing (cut-and-paste, delete, find, undo) given you tools to organize your work in a new and different way? Yes, although I still write my first draft with pen and paper, I use word processing to manipulate and obsess.
I make a mental note of what I want to do and then as my first newspaper editor urged me, I compose at the typewriter-computer. There is a symbiatic relationship between my brain and finger tips. The end result is what you just read.
Like Sheila above, when I had to turn in an outline for school, I wrote the essay first and then the outline based on it.
Sandy, you sound like me writing grants. I sure will post it to your group. Delighted to.
I did not outline the post Michael. I typed it out, saving the questions for the end, but wanting to do enough writing so this didn't just come across as an invitation to "chat". I did take a paragraph near the end and move it closer to the beginning. I often fuss over the right word, or pick a differet word because the one I have rhymes with the one next to it (things like that).
Aniko, I wish I could have done the outline after the composition in college. The professor, Miss Fulghum, would have none of it.
I also agree with Patricia's comments on character development. Who they are, how they came to be here and what they are to accomplish drives the story.
Good Luck in your writing.
Look at the prolific work of Frank Hebert. He made tons of notes in the creation of the Dune Universe, including the ancestral history of every character in the original 5 books.
10 4 u
Jeanette, it looks like notes are pretty darned important. I hadn't even thought about it and I was actually keeping notes (or doing research when I needed the information). This was enlightening.
Jackie, linking the pieces together is going to prove to be my biggest challenge, I think, but I'm getting ideas here.
Like you and many others, I never have used an outline. Like Stephen King, I just sit and write. I take long breaks in between sessions (a couple of days or so). During this time I think about the situation and event that the character(s) are in, then I sit and write. I also work on 3-5 stories at once (this eliminates writers block for me) so my ideas are in constant motion, plotting and storing my thoughts.
I write fiction, so my imagination runs ramped with plots. This allows me to have no limit on what can or will happen in the story. So even if I did create an outline, I wouldn't follow it. I guess I am a "at the moment" type writer. I put in my ear buds, turn on my iPod, and start writing.
I only use a word processor. I have never hand written a story. I type at 80 wpm and can't imagine hand writing anything. I also use my PDA.
~Jonathan~
I may have multiple posts going at once, but not full blown stories. The similarity with me is I have about a dozen serious interests in my life, so no one thing gets my full attention. The one exception might be my 9-5 job.
I don't use an outline although I probably should.
As I go along I create what I call a "continuity document" to keep track of the story. I have two screens set up on my computer. the text being worked on is on the left screen and the "continuity document" is on the right. The "Continuity document" contains character information including physical descriptions and psychological data relevant to the story. It also contains a time line which I create as I go along. My science fiction series currently covers a span of over fifty years. My "geezer lit" action adventure spans ten years. Without my time lines I would be totally lost.
My first book, a fantasy, which takes place over two weeks, is due to be released in March. Check out my web site www.stagewalker.embarqspace.com
I agree with someone here, writing,painting, and playing an instrument are all ONE. You bring your SELF out in them to make your Voice really sing.
At the bottom of the article,
1. I write down points, stories, events, quotes I want to cover. If it is a travel article, I copy my travel notes for that day from my PDA and paste them here.
2. If applicable, I write down Web sites, sources that I might reference.
These serve as documentation and reminders and will not appear in what I publish.
If the article has more than one photograph, I decide what order the photos will appear and number them 1-, 2-, 3-, etc. adding the identity of the photo to the number, such as 1-Bath.jpg, 2-Curse.jpg, 3-Hadrian'sTurret.jpg which I used in a recent post about Roman ruins in Britain. In the text, I type the following where the photos are to appear.
INSERT: 1-Bath.jpg
CAPTION: (filled in)
TAGS: (filled in)
This helps me upload them and manage them efficiently while I'm posting. If I don't change the order of the photos while I'm writing, the photo order sort of serves as an outline.
By the way, I put all the photos I use plus the Word text document in a folder identifying it, which is in a Gather folder for the year. After it is posted, I add Posted and the date on the bottom of the working copy and move the whole folder to a Posted (year) folder in the Gather (year) folder.
So although I don't use an outline, I do a lot of organizing. The organizing helps me sort through the muddle of thoughts I have while I write and keeps me on track. But allowing myself the disorderly thinking is creative and, I think, gets me a better result. I never write anything straight through. I make numerous changes.
I too keep notes at the end of my posts as I write, Verie. It reminds me what I haven't covered yet. I tend to research as I write, though I might go out and find the necessary websites and have them waiting among the notes so they're there as I need them.
Generally though, I just start writing from a basic premise and let things develope as I go along. Maybe it's more "organic" that way. I guess I sort of feel like an outline is "more professional" in a proverbial sense, but I wouldn't assume that ALL actually professional writers feel like it's a must.
Evan, one of the things I'm taking away from this is that the environments where I was required to start with an outline (and stick to it), well, there may have been English teachers there, but they weren't writers. I don't write fiction (some may disagree on grounds of accuracy), but from what I'm hearing fiction is art and it doesn't always fit in a rectangular box. Even some technical writing, like federal grants, can be done without an outline, and for that I quite relieved.
While I don't formally outline, I do make notes as ideas come to me when I'm not ready to flesh out a scene. Something like, scene where Todd finds the key or love scene at the beach. That would be enough for me to remember what the scene is about. If I get a snippet of dialogue, I'll note that too. I keep those notes in my ms, just after the current scene. Then when I'm ready for them, I begin to write and then delete the note.
Great discussion, Ron.