What Kind of Country Are We - Principle versus Convenience

"It pains me that Clinton was impeached for his personal indiscretions in the Oral Office yet the Bush administration has not been held to account for their transgressions and dereliction of duty."

Clinton was impeached for lying under oath and obstructing the legal process. He may or may not have been found guilty of anything else. Kinda like Scooter Libby, not guilty as originally charge, but guilty of pergury.

http://rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/mood_of_america/congressional_performance/congressional_performance

Even Democrats think Congress sucks. So I don't see Congress having the testicular fortitude to impeach.

It won't happen. Congress knows that Bush didn't really lie, but they're pandering to the masses when they suggest such things.

I agree Bush won't be impeached. There's not enough time left in his term anyway.

Hi Winston and Marilyn -

Thank you for commenting, both of you.

I must respectfully disagree with most everything you two said other than:

Impeachment won't happen.
Even Democrats think Congress sucks.

I certainly believe that the Bush administration has obstructed justice and that they lied and knowingly mislead the American people as concerns the reasons to invade Iraq.

Winston, I believe Clinton lied under oath during the impeachment proceedings and was not impeached because of them. Anyways, small potatoes compared to what the current administration has done.

By the way, thanks for including the source of your information concerning congressional performance, good job. I'm not going to view that link as we already agree on the point you were making.

Hope to hear from you soon!

Congress does't have the testicular fortitude to do it. So I just laugh at all the people that still are caught up in this "impeachment talk"!

If McCain wins, who will be the "bogey man" now that Bush and Rove will be gone? Will there be a new villian? Who will all the bad bile and agnst be directed to?

dick armatidge leaked the name of plame,W. told congress the same info billy,kerry.hillary told congress. Mike, maybe you can impeach Bush for the crime of "winning a war against terrorist"??-Knock yourself out.

Winston -

It seems you're big on the testicular fortitude thing.

I would agree that courage is required to move beyond the unpopular truth and to change course when required.

The tree breaks and falls in a strong wind and the flexible reed bends yet survives.

To answer your question, who will be the next bogey man after Bush and Rove are gone? The same bogey men that have always been here (even when their champions come and go): Greed and Ignorance.

I don't have a feeling that McCain is anything like Bush, Rove, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz or De Lay. He seems to be a decent man and a true patriot.

I won't despair should he be elected and I would give him a fair chance to prove himself, even though I don't think he'll actually have the opportunity.

He's earned my respect for his attempts at campaign finance reform.

Maybe we'll just blame everything on you, Winston!

Clinton lied to a grand jury, and to all of us on TV. There is no question of his guilt in that, but the Senate didn't follow through, deciding it not good for the nation. Nixon was pardoned right off the bat for his fiasco's.
Impeachment for anybody now is just about a waste of time and money. Not to mention that a great many in Congress should take a good hard look at themselves first anyway...

Micky D,

How nice to hear from you again.

My friend Clark Kent, who as you all know is for Truth, Justice and the American Way, had this to say about who leaked the cover of Plame to the media:

"Armitage and Rove, under the guidance of Scooter Libby, under the orders of Dick Cheney, under the authorization of Bush himself. Treason at the highest levels of the government."

Not sure what you are talking about next: "W. told congress the same info billy,kerry.hillary told congress."

Is "W." the same as George W. Bush? I know "billy" is Bill Clinton and "kerry" is John Kerry and "hillary" is Hillary Clinton, and what was it they all told congress? Please cite a source or sources for your information along with your answers. Thanks in advance.

No, Micky, I wouldn't think about impeaching Bush for the crime of winning a war against terrorists, as I don't think that winning the war against terrorists is a crime or an impeachable offense.

Even if it were a crime to win the war against terrorists, there is no evidence whatsoever to support the claim that Bush was guilty of such a thing.

I'd rather go for the low-hanging fruit and impeach Bush for treason as well as dereliction of duty. At least those articles of impeachment are viable ones.

Are we a country of principles or convenience? Are government officials above the law? Do we live by the rule of law or by the rule of the greenback?

Do we destroy the country in order to save it? That's like saying if you have a cold, take a shot of malaria!

Scooter Libby was pardoned. So, if he did anything wrong it doesn't matter in the eyes of the law. Clinton was impeached but found not guilty. So, if he did anything it doesn't matter in the eyes of the law.

Bush hasn't really committed any impeachable offenses. He dances close to breaking the law but enjoyed a "rubber stamp for the President" Congress for six years. Congress approved of every action that he took. So, if he did anything, it doesn't matter in the eyes of the law.

John S -

Thanks for your comment.

Let's look at what you're saying here:

Clinton lied to us all about having sex with Monica Lewinski. He was impeached at a cost of millions of dollars.

Bush lied to us all about the reasons for a war in Iraq that has costs hundreds of billions of dollars, has promoted the use of torture, has illegally and unconstitutionally detained enemy combatents for years without recourse to our legal system, has taken away many of our civil rights, wants to excuse illegal activity on the part of the phone companies, wants to fight terrorism abroad so he could employ it domestically in order to win elections, has emptied the national coffers by giving tax breaks to the wealthy during a time of war, awards his vice president's former employer lucrative no-bid contracts in Iraq, as his cronies in the oil industry make record profits while we pay $4 a gallon for gas and you're telling me that he should not be brought to account? Unbelievable.

And I was just warming up.

I'm sorry, Clinton's infractions pale in comparison to that of the current administrations. There should be no pardon for behavior so egregious and damaging to the country. Prosecute now!

Joe T -

Good to hear from you although I completely disagree.

I believe Bush did commit impeachable offenses even though Scooter Libby took the fall, just like Oliver North did for Reagan.

Don't forget the "rubber stamp" Congress was also lied to and everyone, the media, the military, the congress, the press was bullied after 9/11 to put up and shut up with an over-reacting knee-jerk administration or face the consequences of being labeled un-American and un-patriotic in the eyes of The Decider.

Sorry Joe, I just don't see your point. It should matter in the eyes of the law.

I understand the frustration, Mike. But, his actions are lawful. (Disgusting but lawful)

The Congress are a bunch of pathetic, groveling wimps. Just look at how they bow to their king when Bush enters the room, at the State of the Union addresses. They're afraid to go against him, because they fear he'll retaliate, by vetoing their own proposed legislation, which he might otherwise have OKd.

Joe,
I don't usually disagree with you but Bush not only is guilty of breaking the law (Fisa) but of violating the fourth amendment of the constitution he swore to uphold. Not only is he guilty of it, he stood in front of the cameras and admitted it, but at that time, he thought he could get away with it under executive privilege, and claiming national security to keep the records secret. Three courts have disallowed this defense, so far. That is why we now find ourselves being beaten over the head with the telco immunity legislation. If it passes, telcos won't be the only ones granted immunity. Basically, they need it to pass to keep Bush out of trouble. Either way, he most certainly wasn't legal, when he did it.

My point was Clinton committed perjury, the Senate didn't care. Nixon and Watergate- pardoned. Precedents of the position getting off, for the "good of the country".
Now assume Bush was impeached, though I'm unsure as to what exact laws broken, then Cheney becomes Prez. Two seconds later, Bush is pardoned... Waste of time and money; at this point especially. If he committed murder on TV, yeah go ahead...

And the Democratic Congress bless their little hearts, Obama included, don't want a prosecution to get in the way of their perceived blow out in November.

Thanks everybody for a lively debate.

It seems we are a nation of convenience and not very principled. What do you think?

This administration has been one of the most secretive and least forthcoming in recent history. So many decisions made by so few. Something's wrong in Dodge, and in D.C.

Joe T, we'll have to agree to disagree. You are right, I'm frustrated. How could we all do better?

John S, we should go for Cheney first, but I see your point, it doesn't really matter. One will pardon the other.

Ron, I guess I don't want anything to get in the way of Obama's blowout in November. I think electing Obama is the first step in recovering from the damage wrought by this administration.

Do you think the laws apply equally to you and me as well as to Bush and Rove and company? Do you think the Bush presidency has been good or bad for the country? In what ways? What worked for you and what didn't?

Does any precedent in turning a blind eye to possible crimes by our politicians serve the nation well? What is America all about? What do we stand for? Land of opportunity or land of opportunists? Or both, opportunity for opportunists?

I think history will be unkind to Mr. Bush and company. Maybe that will be enough to discourage similar behavior in the future, but we also have a short term memory as a people.

Makes one wish for the days of James Buchanan (do nothing President), or better yet James A. Garfield (4 months in office)!

I agree with Robert that Congress has been cowed by the confluence of administration and situation. 9/11 took us all for a loop, and we are still reeling from its affects.

Do you think that the whole neo-conservative thing was a marketing ploy or that Bush really delivered to his constituency?

So many questions, so few answers.

I'm bugging out of the debate for a bit. Spending too much time typing away. I know some won't be disappointed, but that's okay.

Have at it and enjoy. Or like Micky D says, "Knock yourself out."

And if anything goes wrong, blame Winston. Just kidding, Mr. Smith!

Mike,

Considering the pace at which Congress moves, I don't think there is enough time left to impeach Bush even though I think the Constitution leave quite a bit of latitude on what constitutes an impeachable offense.

As to whether or not he acturally committed an impeachable offense that is another question which I will not attempt to go into here.

If you are going to impeach Bush then you MUST prosecute those in congress who gave him the Legal Authority to go to war. Only by a majority vote was the president allowed to use force. Many democrats signed on to that decision.

Bill Clinton was convicted of a crime first and then impeached. Bush has not been convicted nor have charges even been filed. It DOES NOT matter how many accusations are going around, until something is filed in court impeachment is a mute point.

I agree, Mike. Well said. It will be interesting when a Democrat gets into the WH and starts exercising the same "executive privilages" that Bush did. You will start hearing the screaming about "unlawful" behavior then, I assure you.

Poliwonk,

You made a statement that asserts a fact I don't seem to recall, "Bill Clinton was convicted of a crime first and then impeached." What was the crime and when and in what court was he convicted?

As for your assertion that a president could be impeached only after some court action, I disagree. A president is is the only person capable of committing certain offenses and only Congress has the authority to call a President to account for such offenses and remove him/her from office.

Carol – It's agreed, impeachment probably will not occur. As to whether or not Bush committed an impeachable offense is certainly up to the Congress to decide, although many of us have a layman's opinion on this topic. For me, I'd be happy to move forward and learn the lessons of the past eight years and improve upon the faults, as should happen with any administration.

Poliwonk – I don't follow your logic. The administration misleads Congress, Congress reacts to what it assumes is truthful information, and you suggest that Congress is as culpable as the administration? I cannot accept this argument.

Sheryl – I agree. Executive privilege is not a crime in and of itself but abuse of power must be called to account no matter who is in the White House. I expect better of our political leaders than what we've had the past two terms.

Carol – I agree. Thanks for your comments.

I see the whole thing as good cop - bag cop or a 2 headed dragon ....
IT DOESN'T MATTER it's still a cop,dragon or politician. We lose!

While the news channels are covering what he said, she said I say put them all on time out and get in a goverment by the people and for the people.

Tom M -

Thank you for your comments. You've hit the nail on the head. Your views echo a comment I made just this morning, pasted here:

"But the discussions these past few days have given me an insight that has escaped me thus far. The diverse problems we have are all connected by one thing, the need for greed.

I'm going to flesh these ideas out in the coming days, but the thrust of this article will be:

The American electorate has been set upon by the money-makers. As they claim to represent us, they employ tactics that have resulted in an ultra-divisive political arena, a divide and conquer tactic.

So here we are, conservatives vilifying liberals, Democrats vilifying Republicans, and vice versa, when in reality we are puppets on a string and our real enemy is the puppeteer!"

It is in everybody's interest to relegate our political differences to a secondary place in our politics and to act concertedly toward the goal of establishing a government of, by and for the People.

"So what kind of country are we? Do we stand on principle or convenience, image or substance?"

It's most important to seperate our national sovereignty from the idiots who have done everything within their ability to ruin our country, destroy the middle class as well as our economy and sell the American worker down the river for the sake of globalism. Not to mention our reputation worldwide while doing so.


"I have signed on to Congressman Wexler's call for impeachment. The point of impeachment is to hold those in government to account for their illegal actions. We must establish a deterrent for such behavior by our government officials."

I also signed Congressman's call for impeachment and I agree with everything that you wrote. However, don't forget this. Georgie's grandfather, Prescott Bu$h, was sending money to Nazi Germany during WWII..so can you imagine what little Georgie learned while sitting on Grandaddy's lap? Scares the heck out of me actually.

So don't forget the option of Martial Law. It's never happened in U.S. history, however we have never had a President like George Bu$h.

And I write all of that as a Republican. Bu$h has done damage to the U.S. as well as the Republican Party that will take decades to repair.

Timothy V. -

I really appreciate you sharing your thoughts on this. Thank you.

I am actually pretty surprised. I thought I had you pegged based on our previous exchange concerning your icon. I was wrong about you, and I apologize to you for my prejudice.

I think it is of the utmost importance for those of differing political and societal perspectives to come together as a people united in respect for the noble principles on which this country was founded.

I'm not suggesting we agree on positions or candidates. That is an absurd notion. I am suggesting that we unite in the way we argue and advocate for our differing positions.

Republicans and Democrats, liberals and conservatives, evangelicals and atheists uniting in the noble principles of this country. Is this not something we can agree on and still remain true to our beliefs and positions?

This requires a whole new paradigm. It requires the elevation of truth, as tentative a concept as that is, coupled with a respect for others independent of any other consideration. Relegate our differences to the second tier and primarily concern ourselves with the ground rules according to American ideals of a government by, of and for the people.

I'm not sure how this would be accomplished or that we would make much headway in our lifetimes. But we should make a start, put a stake in the ground or, better yet, through the heart of the vampirical politics that suck us dry.

We are, all of us, played and manipulated by those more powerful than any one individual, like pawns on a chessboard or puppets on a string.

Dangling from the strings of the Puppeteer's right hand is the Elephant, dangling from the left the Donkey. Controlling both in a staged battle against each other is the Puppeteer. The Puppeteer is handsomely rewarded for putting on the show, the puppets get nothing as becomes their position.

The Puppeteer is neither left nor right, conservative nor liberal, religious nor otherwise.

The name of the Puppeteer is Ignorance N. Greed.

"The name of the Puppeteer is Ignorance N. Greed. "

Well said Mike.

"I was wrong about you, and I apologize to you for my prejudice."

Apology accepted.

You write some very interesting articles Mike. I'll be sure to check out some more of your work.

Timothy V -

Thanks for your response.

We don't need to agree politically and in fact that is a ridiculous concept. We actually depend on respectful argument and diversity of position in order to make this country stronger! It seems counter-intuitive but I strongly believe this to be the case.

I hope that the American electorate can agree to work together in putting us in the driver's seat as a first priority. Let the political differences take second place.

If this can be done we can proceed with the advocacy of our differing positions and have a functioning government that actually works toward the common good instead of for the special interests and the moneyed powers that pit us against each other.

There is a class war brewing and there are more of us poor and middle income folks than there are the super-wealthy who seem to have things pretty well set up for themselves. Money talks, the rest walks.

This is a country where we can actually do something about it, if we could get a clear perspective on who are the true "enemy", the one's that have taken our place at the table.

I realize that much of the electorate will think I'm from Alpha Centauri as they seem to see nothing of the current paradigm, and thinking about it is uncomfortable and it takes time away from watching American Idol. Our government is vital and watching American Idol is not.

We need to come together, Republicans and Democrats and all the rest of the political spectrum. We need to act in concert and to stop vilifying each other. Then We can begin to restore democracy in America.

E Pluribus Unum!

WOW! You can really tell it like it is!!!

Thanks, poetrandy, for your comment.

Let me take this opportunity to retract something I said from an earlier comment (July 8, 2008 at 1:27 PM):

"I don't have a feeling that McCain is anything like Bush, Rove, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz or De Lay. He seems to be a decent man and a true patriot."

Recent information about McCain has given me reason to change my mind about him.

He must not be elected president of the United States, now or ever! Time for a change!