Open discussion about drinking

Julia, this is a huge topic. Since I have two teen aged children, with two more on the way, maybe I'll focus on underaged drinking. And the truth is, I don't know how to prevent it. I think one key method is to model responsible drinking. A second step in preventing underaged drinking is to not have liquor around the house if possible. Or certainly, if the adult(s) choose to keep alcohol in the home, it needs to be monitored. Thirdly, be educated and educate the children about alcohol. And here's a huge one: know where your children are, what they are doing, and who they are with! Good grief, but parents who drop their child off at a friend's house without checking that there is an adult home or who do not make phone calls confirming their child's planned activities, well, those parents are either naive or irresponsible. And yes, I do this for even my almost-18 year old. I don't frame it as "I don't trust you," but as a matter-of-fact "let's keep our schedules straight" so that someone doesn't end up stranded or in a place where s/he doesn't want to be.

And something else I tell my kids: if they are in a position that they don't like, they can blame me. For instance, my oldest child and I went out dancing at the Cedar Cultural Center last weekend. I told her that if someone asks her to dance and she doesn't want to all she had to do is say, "My mother told me not to dance with anyone."

At a party and offered a drink? Just say, "My mom's a total jerk about this. She not only threatened to take away my computer and cell phone if she caught me drinking, but I know she'd do it!" \

I give them permission to use me as a way out of a bad situation. Hey. That's what parents are for, helping kids out.

Susan you made a good point about modeling responsible drinking. How often do we have a single pint of beer? How often do we talk about a good glass of wine as opposed to telling those "and then your uncle got SO DRUNK!" or drinking war stories? It isn't just the family, but even friends. I've often joked that students don't post "diligently studying" pictures online.

That said, I'm not sure it is always about peer pressure. Sometimes, kids/people/individuals simply want to drink. I just read an interview with Anthony Bourdain where he admitted he wanted to take drugs and nothing would stop him from experimenting. Then they need to make the best possible decisions around it...and I don't have an answer for that.

But the tools and options you gave your kids? Priceless. A good reminder that being the bad guy can be a good thing.

I don't know about college binge drinking - my two teenagers seemed to avoid the worst of that. However, I do notice that among my adult friends and family, there is much less drinking these days.

Last night I attended an office party and was surprised that there were so many "free drink tickets" left over. I admit to one drink (I wasn't driving) but switched to coffee after that. Many people were drinking water and soda.

I agree with Susan that parents can help a lot when it comes to teens and drinking. First of all, how much liquor is in your own cabinet? How often do your kids see you drinking? What do you truly, honestly expect of your kids? Do they know?

Julia is right, too, of course. Could there be a genetic component that predisposes people to trying - or wanting - to get high or take risks in general?

We can't blame college binge drinking solely on parenting.

I'm also torn about allowing children to have a sip or a tiny glass of wine at family gatherings. How do you handle that, Diana? At Christmas at my parents, we always have wine and then after opening presents, we have grasshoppers. No one gets drunk, no one has more than two grasshoppers (my mom simply makes enough for everyone to have one, plus a little topper).

This past Christmas my 14 y.o. had a grasshopper. I think it's good to allow children to have supervised alcohol within the family activities on special occasions. My 17 y.o. declined the drink.

otoh, my husband read some compelling information about the teen aged brain and the potentially harmful effects of even a small amount of alcohol. I think that's a valid concern, but how to weigh it against leading one's child in a gradual development of healthful drinking behavior?

For some kids (I know it was true of me), the forbidden becomes the sole objective. My parents allowed limited consumption within their home on Holiday occasions under their watchful eye. But for some kids, even that can hurt them.

Diana, yes I do believe there is a genetic predisposition for one to seek risk-taking behavior. And I have that inclination. I crave risks and intensity. I am married to someone who firmly does not have that urge to take risks. In fact, I initially "wrote him off" as a potential mate because he confessed that he didn't like to take risks.

Fate took hold of us both, fortunately. :-)

So, yes, yes, yes. People do have character traits that moves them to either take risks or not, seek the ultimate high or not. Google it and you'll find academic articles on the topic.

What saved me from becoming a statistic? I had the hope and the expectation of a good future. Um, I think I just stumbled onto something key.

In some instances, it's probably fine (and maybe beneficial) for someone to let their kids take a "sip" but each situation is different.

Lyndon is correct about Europe. I was just there and it was not unusual to see someone board the train with a beer in hand. These people are not driving, they usually sit in the last car and they know the camera is rolling. We didn't have any problems but I can see where it would be a culture shock for someone who's never been there before.

I've lived for over a year in each of: Germany, California, Missouri, Illinois, New Jersey and now Minnesota. I'm still new here after 3.5 years. But it's interesting to me how different alcohol consumption is here compared to all those other places.

I've always known a few people who drank a lot. The rest of us knew they had a problem. But aside from my years at University, I've never really known people who primarily recreated by drinking. I now have many coworkers who seem to wrap their entire social life around the consumption of alcohol. It's weird to me. Because of my experiences, it feel like juvenile behavior but I try not to be judgmental -- I don't even think moderate use of recreational drugs (of any kind) is a problem -- just not my thing.

The other thing is that I've heard lots of people here joke about, and even advocate(!), driving under the influence. This is amazing and disturbing to me. I guess if people enjoy the effects of copious alcohol intake, I don't have a problem with it, but I _do_ have a problem with them being behind the wheel afterward. The cavalier attitude toward dangerous motor-vehicle operation is kind of scary to me as unused to it as I am.

So my impression is that this really is a Minnesota (or maybe northern -- we don't seem any different than Wisconsin) issue.

My kids are six and thirteen. We drink the occasional cocktail. We open a bottle of wine with dinner less than once a month. And I probably average 2.5 beers per week. We drink but we're pretty moderate. And we give the kids what we believe to be appropriate amounts and discuss the deleterious effects of having too much. Our hope is that we'll never have to monitor our liquor cabinet by raising the kids with an interactive responsible understanding of the role alcohol plays in our lives. I hope it works -- so far it seems to but they're still awfully young.

Susan, that makes me feel a little better because I am inclined not to take risks!

Christopher - it sounds like you're on top of it at your house and maybe Minnesota is worse than other places. I know when I lived in the country (Western Minnesota) that many kids drank because there was so little else to do. (No, not me)

I am a bartender, so you can imagine that i have seen many different things. It really all is in moderation, i feel for the kids of people that i have seen in the bar over and over again, who is taking care of them, what is the relationship with the parents like? and most of all will they have this same problem?

Is binge drinking any worse? Say then 25 years ago? I don't think so. I think college kids pretty much binge drink as much as they did back when I was in school in the 80's.

I think college kids are just as short sighted and naive as I was back then. But today's kids could be worse, these are the kids of a generation where self-esteem was given, not earned, where everyone won a trophy and nobody "won", where school work was done in teams and not individually, and everyone is a victim.

I think the general attidude towards drinking has changed. I think many people are smarter with their drinking and driving today. I don't think many people drink at a business lunch anymore. But if as adults are smarting up, how do we instill this into our children?

"What do you truly, honestly expect of your kids? Do they know?" - Diana Raabe That's a hard discussion to have if you haven't been talking about it for years. But it is something that should be done. As far as your question about genetics, Diana, I think Susan is onto something when she talks about the "forbidden." How attractive is that to someone who wants to rebel? College binge drinking happens despite parent or teacher involvement and outside the law. I don't think we can change that.

Lyndon, do you think we should model other nations or do you just think we're too absorbed in "celebrity, drama," to change?

Christopher Weeks, how do you react when people joke about or even advocate driving under the influence? I have to admit I recoiled when I read about your experiences with that.

Well Amber D. we can imagine you've seen it ALL. Do the kids seem to know that there are other options? If they grow up with it, they might not realize there's something different. Or maybe they'll rebel the other way.

"I think college kids are just as short sighted and naive as I was back then." - Gary Fischbach You're probably right, Gary. I don't know that will ever change completely, but we all have to recognize that during that age people really...have to learn the hard way. Or most of them do. I'm not sure they're any worse that we were to previous generations. Kids these days! But you made a really good point - if we're smartening up, why can't we communicate it?

Honestly, some of us - even some of us typing here - are probably alive and healthy OUT OF SHEER LUCK despite youthful partying. As much as I'd like kids today have a designated driver, stay at a house party, or even i.d. the drinking equivalent of a trip sitter... I don't know if that would happen. That requires forethought and impulse control, and how many of us adults have that now much less then?

In response to Lyndon and Christopher, there seems to be a common misconception that alcohol abuse and binge drinking among young people is a peculiarly American phenomenon. In fact binge drinking is becoming an increasingly serious problem throughout Europe, especially in England, Ireland and the northern countries. See:
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/1182233.stm
www.time.com/time/europe/html/051219/story.html
www.morningadvertiser.co.uk/news_detail.aspx?articleid=21963

The thing that bothers me the most about these college binge drinking episodes is the schools refusing to inform parents about underage drinking by hiding behind the false pretense of "student privacy rights".

Schools find out about underage drinking because the police report underage consumption and DWI arrests to the administration in hopes that there will be consequences or intervention. High schools routinely suspend students from activities and athletics when the police report underage drinking citiations to the principals and athletic directors. There is nothing private about an arrest or conviction that could not legally be forwarded to parents. It is public information, plain and simple. How do you think MPR and the rest of the media find out about the rich and famous being arrested for what ever. Students have absolutely no legal recourse against a school if an administrator gets a police report and forwards it a parent or even the media. The colleges don't tell parents because it hurts recruitment. Do you think the private colleges in Minnesota are going to have a student/golden goose bringing in $30K a year in tuition scared off because their parents will be told about illegal behavior, I doubt it. Students who know their parents will be told of their misbehavior will simply opt to attend a more party friendly school. The Minnesota State colleges like St. Cloud, Mankato and Winona have national reputations as party schools going back to the 1970's when 18 was the legal age to drink.

Just look at the drunk driving deaths that occurred in Winona a few years ago when four students and their dog went into the river. Or the female student this fall in Mankato who was hit in the road because she was so intoxicated that her and her friend were lost and fell in front of a car. Is it any wonder the grim reaper has made so many visits?

Also, as an insurance professional, I know nearly all college students have cars that belong to the parents and are insured under their parents household policies. Don't tell me it's not a parent's right to know if their child has been arrested for an alcohol related driving offense. Bad behavior by children can result in millions of dollars in lawsuits against parents and insurance companies from property damage, injuries and wrongful death claims. Not to mention the increased auto premiums, non-renewals or outright cancellations of parent's policies when a member of the household is convicted of an alcohol related offense.



As long as parents are paying tuition, providing vehicles and or insurance, they have a right to be informed so they can both intervene to get their children help and to protect themselves legally from the acts of the minors or underage students when they are out of their sight. If a parent is sending a student to college they should insist that there be a signed agreement between the parents, the student and the school that any rule violations be reported to the parents. If students don't want to agree, then they can pay for their own tuition, room and board and suffer the consequences themselves since they are declaring themselves "adults" and no longer in need of oversight.

Yeah, drinking alcohol is the most widely abused substance in the world and also the substance that shortens our lives the fastest and most often.

Gregg A, you've said some rather inflamatory comments. I'm not sure that those colleges and universities you mentioned as party schools will be pleased with your diatribe. But that's not my bone to pick.

A key point in your comments comes in the last two paragraphs. You suggest that If a parent is sending a student to college they should insist that there be a signed agreement between the parents, the student and the school that any rule violations be reported to the parents.

Nearly ALL college students are adults. We should treat them as such. Granted they are busy doing adolescent things such as binge drinking, but that does not negate their adulthood status.

When my kids were learning to walk, they fell. A lot. I didn't throw my hands up in disgust and say, "Oh, skip it! If you can't walk without stumbling, then sit still while I wheel you around in the carriage."

The stakes between toddlerhood and adulthood are not comparable, but the process of getting them through these 'hoods are the same. With my kids, I removed tables with sharp corners and set up bumpers where needed.

We should do the same for young adults moving from childhood to adulthood. I think a lengthy dialogue about what constitutes an adult bumper would be helpful, but I certainly don't think that shoving them back down and yelling, "Sit still until you can function without error!" is the answer.

Actually, Gregg, what you said here: If students don't want to agree, then they can pay for their own tuition, room and board and suffer the consequences themselves since they are declaring themselves "adults" and no longer in need of oversight. is perfect. Not the "if students don't want to agree" part, but the part about having them suffer the consequences is exactly what needs to happen.

A look at the ruckus some parents made over in Eden Prairie when the high school called its students on illegal activity is an illuminating example of how some parents are very reluctant to call their own kids on their bad behavior.

Julia,

I just wanted to share with you our Turn On The Lights parent awareness campaign.. The newest video is called "Bottoms Up" and show in great detail binge drinking. We belive that parents think this is the same world we grew up in 20 some odd years ago and that could not be further from the truth.

Please watch this video and then decide if binge drinking is a rite of passage......


http://thepassagegroup.com/theater.cfm?myVideo=55

Warning, it is graphic and raw. but true and real....

Call us if you want a hard copy....
thanks for spreading the news.....

Julie
The Passage Group'
www.thepassagegroup.com

Julia,

Maybe I should have marked my previous post as potentially inappropriate. Please judge for yourself. I think its important for parents to see, but you should decide for yourself......

Julie, I've gotta say that link really needs to be flagged. It's pretty horrifying. I'll write more on it later, but will take a second to say that the video is eye-opening and shocking.

Students don't really see drinking as a big deal. Even in college, students want to fit in and be part of the group. Drinking is often the easiest way to do that. Students share stories about what happened the night before or the time "I got so drunk". It is one way that the majority of the students relate to one another. Some students are drinking to overcome their pure images, and some are rebelling against strict parents and rules they had in high school. It makes students feel adult and cool to drink openly--usually without consequence. I did not drink in high school, but when I got to college I felt the need to experiment. To prove that I fit in. To engage in illegal activity that didn't really seem too bad. I could say I did something "taboo", but no one really viewed it that way. I think students, like me, think it's a way to do something forbidden without any major consequences. The sad thing is, most of them don't realize how potentially dangerous the game is that they are playing. They don't know how much is too much or how to stop once they start. Since their friends usually laugh at them for getting so drunk they are sick or pass out, those friends don't know the signs when a person is beyond sleeping it off. There have been too many deaths by alcohol consumption in MN over the last year or two. Students know the risks. They just aren't heeding advice because they feel it will never happen to them.

Julia, the link provided by Julie supercede just about anything I've ever seen. The horrors of binge drinking reach far beyond the immediate people involved, but also consume the families of those who partake. And it ripples outward to not just touch, but kick us in the backside, every single person.

It's my birthday today. What a present I've given myself by watching and then caring about this issue.

Binge drinking is a college problem.

According to 2006 National Survey on Drug Use & Health the highest use of alcohol is in the age group 21-25. The report also states that those within the 21-25 age group who attend college drink more than their peers who do not attend college. Interestingly, people with college educations drink less than those without a degree.

In other words, kids drink more in college and less after college than the norm.

The problem is clearly college.

The statistics from the 2006 National Survey on Drug Use and Health do highlight the high rate of binge drinking and heavy use of alcohol in full time students in college, but drawing the conclusion that binge drinking is a college problem from the two graphs I analyzed in the report seems a little presumptive. The statistics need to be broken down much further to come to that conclusion. Things like if the people not in school have full time jobs, a family, or live with their parents can be factors that affect a person's rate of drinking. An example of what I'm saying is I would like to see single males 21 - 25 who are full time students compared to single males 21 - 25 with a full time job. Bulking all full time college students 21 - 25 together is unfair, as is bulking all people not full time enrolled in college the ages of 21-25.

I just want to illustrate that there are a significant number of life factors not included in the statistical analysis and I'm also not denying that college students drink excessive levels of alcohol.

"Absinthe huh?? Wow...that crap is dangerous. It's got wood alcohol in it, known to cause blindness in some...gosh... "

Absinthe is distilled from wine spirits, not wood alcohol. It is made with "wormwood" which is nothing other than a commopn artemesia herb -- artemisia absinthium. Very close relative to the same stuff used in sweat lodges for thousand of years -- sagebrush. It is also a very close relative of "silver mound" that a lot of people have growing in their yards.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absinth_Wormwood

Sorry, I should have said made by soaking wormwood and other herbs in wine spirits, then distilling this to a fine liquor. There is no fermentation process, hence no other alcohol than the stuff you get from wine.

Binge drinking in college is a problem, and I don't know where we should start in trying to prevent this. As a fairly recent college graduate, I'm certain it isn't something that's going to disappear too quickly. However, in the mean time, we should be taking many more steps to make sure that when students are drinking, and they will, they are safer.

For example, I studied abroad in England for six months while a student. In the first week of school, each dorm floor of freshmen students had a group of second or third year students with a small budget. The older students took the new students out around town, showed them the "safe" places to drink, where bus stops are and when the buses stop running at night, gave them numbers for taxis, etc.

It's not going to stop binge drinking, but might prevent more deaths.

I lived on 23rd Avenue S.E. from 1978 until 2005. Binge drinking among my neighbors really only became a problem around 2003. On some blocks of S.E. Mpls on the weekend it looks like a block party is in progress there are so many parties and people walking, drinks in hand, down the block. I'm now 61 years old. I attended the "U" from '64-'69 and yes, I did some drinking while I was there. I'm sure that a certain percentage of students always have. And yet, students dying from drinking too much or from accidents, or possibly even homicides after they've been drinking only seems to have become a problem in the past few years. I have several questions (I wish I had answers): Not every young person between 17 & 22 goes to college. Supposedly those who do go to college are the "best and brightest." So why don't we hear about non-collegians of this age drinking to excess and dying? Is it a problem for non-students as well, it's just that their parents and loved ones don't enjoy the same access to media as those of college students, or are they valued less or are they smarter about drinking? I listened to the discussion on the radio and, from what the various speakers had to say, it seems that it is the schools, the bars, the advertisers, the state, possibly the parents, but anyone's fault except the students themselves. I don't have any kids so I have to accept these things second hand but all I've heard of late is how competitive it is, how hard it is to get into college in the first place and, secondly, how expensive it is once accepted. Yet, unlike me who lived at home with my parents for all five years that I attended, all of today's students seem to live off-campus in apartments, like my former neighbors. If college is so expensive, where does the money for off campus housing, (and the cars, each one seems to have a car--my street was lined with them,) come from? If money is that plentiful, will raising the price of a drink by ten cents really make a difference? These young people are supposed to have the best brains of their age group, they go to college, sit in classes and are supposed to be learning how to think critically. Does it make any sense that they need to be protected from advertising campaigns, that they can determine which study controlled properly for variables, etc. but then read a bar or liquor ad and accept it's premise uncritically? Is it the college or university's responsibility to monitor student behavior and report back to each student's parents? Will the "U" start sending out "report cards?" I think the premise has always been that a young person who is accepted for study at a college or university has demonstrated the intellect and maturity to manage their own affairs. If that isn't the case, maybe we need to look back a few years and figure out how we can be graduating from high school students who seem to possess a lot of "book learning" and little common sense.
I thought it was rather ironic, around a decade ago, when mouth guards for student athletes became a big issue. I'd sit outside on the university campus and eat my lunch and watch the young skateboarders try to ride their boards down staircase railings, without mouth guards. That also seems to be the era when binge drinking began to be a problem. Are the two related? Is it a case of the more extreme the measures to insure safety, the more extreme become the efforts to court danger, to defy convention? I've heard the term "helicopter parents" used and wonder if today's kids are doted on a bit too much and it leads them toward deviance, towards behaviors they know are risky just to demonstrate that they actually do control their own lives, even if the consequences may be bad?
As I said above, I wish I had answers but, from the perspective of a "senior citizen" ,these are just some questions I have.

Our country is the worlds #1 in alcohol consumption. You could say that relatively everyone drinks, from farmers to politicians, old grannies to 12 year old teenagers. Whether its a glass of wine per day, or a jack daniels bottle for breakfast. Drinking is tolerated and in some cases even encouraged. I just hope such irresponsible behavior will be changed soon.

Jess,
Reverse Number Lookup

It's interesting to hear about the drinking culture over there in the States, because in Europe binge-drinking is a huge issue, especially in the UK and Ireland where excessive drinking goes with our nightclub culture among the 18-30's.

It's sad to be honest and one sort of wishes that our reputation didn't precede us abroad so much as it does! With regard to the current climate, I've read that excessive drinking is on the rise due to depression over financial problems. As well as drinking being on the rise, gym attendance is down and memberships are being cancelled (due to a shortage of cashflow!) and we are buying less healthy foods in favour of items that are on special offer, like cakes and chips and things...

Anyway, there's a full article on it at the following site that I thought might interest and add something to the conversation! http://www.foodeu.com/articles/Credit+Crunch+Forces+Binge+Drinking.aspx
If anyone has any views on the toll that the credit crunch has taken on their health/drinking habits etc, make a contribution!

Thanks, Caitlin

Caitlin, I didn't 'visit your link (I hope you mean contributing a viewpoint...) yet but I have to wonder about the word forces in the URL. Does it really force drinking, or drive it? Is it human nature to seek a sort of ... refuge / forgetfulness or could financial worries be a driver to more proactive, positive means? Big questions, and I don't mean to make it sound like I'm directing them to you - it is very much an open discussion.