Hot Topics - 10/01/2007

High School Student Wants Anti-Abortion Club - I am Pro-Choice, but also feel that students should have the right to voice their own opinions and peaceably form clubs/organizations in high school that bring people together to discuss and represent issues. This is the same as a group of gay students forming a group that promotes the understanding of gay issues in high school. But, I also think that while administrators and teachers need to be respectful of different viewpoints and encourage students to organize and learn how to become active citizens in the world, they also need to balance this with a focus on classes and education, with these groups viewed as extra-curricula activities that take place outside the school class day.

Just a note on this - I saw a documentary about a town in the Northwest, Philomath, this past weekend on the Sundance channel and a huge fight the people of the town and a private foundation which supplied over a million dollars in scholarships had with the school board and superintendent, demanding that the school NOT let voices from different groups be heard at the school. It's a very ugly thing when people only let the group with whom they agree have freedom of speech. We need to teach our kids respect for a variety of views across the spectrum, and our public schools is a good place to start since they SHOULD be politically neutral.

Thanks for the info, Lar. Very informative.

Abortion Club -- Why not?

McCain -- Why?

Cigarette Tax -- I like the idea, but what happens when too many people quit smoking?

Stress -- Doesn't stress have an impact on cancer in general?

Favre -- a tribute to longevity. His interception total is pretty high as well.

Bush -- Best of luck to the young author.

1924 -- Good day for peanuts, bad day for US in general.

Sheryl- I am about freedom of speech. The focus of the club was Anti-Abortion which according to the law a legal act. School has a responsibility to protect its students and if there are students who had abortions they could be serious effected. There are other ways to discuss the topic, like having a debate team or discussion time. I also think it should be upto the community, school board to determine the situation since they know best what exactly the issue is and how the "club" was being organized.

Far as private business providing scholarships..they should be able to provide the terms. School wants to give PETA the stage to talk and the company is a fur company, then heck why not suggest it could cost scholarships. Free Speech but also be responsible for what is said. Should the school allow hate speeches also, I mean all the free speech is great right? Lets hand the stage to Ayran nation, Neo-Nazis, and who ever else wants the stage? Politicaly neutral so next is the KKK....

Public schools are a place to educate the children. The building use after that is determined by the community. I would not want to have my local school being used to by the KKK even if they paid to use it. Would you? If not, it is free speech right?

Dan-McCain has a choice to choose who he votes for and why, guess he feels simular faith is important to him.. the press title and what he said are different..nice twist

Dan- agree, and what if the taxes on tobacco get too high so it makes people stop buying prepackaged and back to roll your own.

Farve-agree, but he also has a nice record on countious starts..Iron Man is more impressive to me then his totals

Bush- Smart girl for taking advantage of her name before he leaves office...bet she rights another book when he leaves office...about GW Bush

Jimmy carter- man who screwed the white men of the nation

So Don, before Roe V Wade, should a pro-abortion club have been disallowed? Numerous laws have been overturned -- all the result of civil discussion. Why would we supress discussion on this or any other matter?

Also ... I acknowledge McCains right to speak and vote for whom he chooses. I was wondering the logic behind thinking that being Christian makes one a better president. (Omigosh I'm sounding like a liberal!!!!)

Dan- Maybe, should we have a Pro-Slavery Club? Discussion is valid but forming a school club for it isnt the best way to handle it. Like I said not sure on the entire situation and would rather leave some balance to school board and the community. Would the Anti-Abortion club proposed be placing posters? Demostrations? Should the school hallways be the battleground over abortion rights? School policy towards clubs, do they use school supplies, is it school funded and sancationed, school paying for the club guide? School buses used to take students to demostrate or march in parades? Students using school buses to take club to boycott say a hospital....

See reason I am not into having school clubs for various political issues.Clubs should be for educational purposes. Debate club is fine, as they debate and discuss issues. Hope made myself more clear..

Dan- media spin on words....

John McCain Believes a Christian Makes the Best President

Senator McCain stated that, for the presidency, he would prefer a Christian to someone practicing a different faith when asked if a Muslim would make a good president
Honestly he didnt state that, he said he would perfer that..MEDIA spin

Donald - Excerpts from McCain's interview. No twist here!
"But I think the number one issue people should make [in the] selection of the President of the United States is, 'Will this person carry on in the Judeo Christian principled tradition that has made this nation the greatest experiment in the history of mankind?"
"I prefer someone who I know who has a solid grounding in my faith."

Thanks for sharing

Don, why not a pro-slavery club? As repulsive as it is, our farming industry depended on the once legal-and-worldwide-accepted practice, and hasn't recovered since its aboloshment. Maybe prisoners should be made to do farm labor as part of their sentence.

School hallways have been the battleground for these debates for at least 30 years (probably longer) as I remember pro- and anti-war, pro- and anti-abortion, pro- and anti- ERA (remember that one?) debates, discussions and yes, posters, too when I was in high school.

Regarding the anti-abortion club, don't you think there are many students -- male and female, who are living with unbearable remorse because of their decision to abort a pregnancy? Maybe they'd like to share those feelings, not only as additional information for others in similar situations, but for their own therapy. Maybe pro-abortionists can be permitted to join this club to present their points of view as well.

ugh....I used to like McCain (even if I would never vote for him) but that puts an end to that. What ever happened to the law that no candidate should be identified by their religious opinions? There IS a difference between being a MORAL person and saying what McCain said in your quote. He is way out of line - pandering to the moral majority (which is neither, BTW).

Yes, Donald - the foundation in Philomath was private and had been supplying public high school students in the town with much-needed financial scholarships for years. They had every right to take away their scholarships because the kids were not dressing as they liked, and the science teachers were teaching ecology in the high school (and the company that founded the scholarship owns the major logging company in town). I say, good riddance to them. They have decided to use their money and "philanthropy" only for those whom they consider in line with their personal values and beliefs. You are right - they can do that. It just strikes me as extremely ugly to manipulate the school system in a town with money - either do what I say and conform to my values, or many of your kids will not be able to go to college.

What activities would this anti-abortion club would be participating in other than conducting meetings were the topic was discussed? The zeal of young activists tends to make them inclined to overstep the bounds of the acceptable and I can easily see the members of such a club tactics that constitute or borders on harassment to try to prevent a student or other person they think might be pregnant from considering the option of abortion or to force the unwilling to participate in anti-abortion demonstrations. Without additional information it is difficult to determine if the proposed club would be likely to engage in conduct that intruded on the rights of other students or community members who might be pro-choice.

McCain: It is a shame that a man who has served his country so honorably has lost faith in the principles embedded in the document that guides the nation that he fought for. There is that provision to the effect that the no religious test or affirmation shall be required to hold office. As a private citizen he has a right to his opinion, but a candidate for President of the United States it casts doubt on his ability to not apply such religious test when making appointment for other offices.

As a smoker I do not object to paying my fair share to providing health care for children but expecting smokers to bear the entire burden is unfair particularly since such a tax will have no impact on the biggest threat to our children's health which is obesity. As a senior citizen on a limited budget I may well have consider the option of rolling my own particularly since my family history suggests that smoking is much less of a danger than over-eating.

As to work stress resulting in an increased risk of breast cancer I will only comment that work is the cause of stress that women would be most likely to be willing the admit existed and the stress created by trying to juggle work and family needs might frequently end up being attributted to work stress even if there was nothing very stressful about a woman's work environment. The impact of any type of stress on health is what should be being emphasized.

Like many young adults Jena is trying to make a place herself in this world that will last beyond a parent's ability to help or provide for her, and like the children of many famous people she is only availing herself of an advantage most other young people lack. How she uses that advantage will be the lasting mark of her character.

Donald,

Your remark about Carter is beneath anything but satircal comment so here goes. Since Carter obviously wasn't acting ouf his own self interest or that of his descendants, is this cause for admiring him?

LA R- He also stated his belief, as "I PERFER" He suggested what people should question, but he did not provided them with the answer did he? I mean crying out loud the guy is allowed his freedom of religon isnt he?
Nice try again to spin it...

Dan-It is perfect for students to discuss in teh hallways but allowing a school club for one side is wrong. Schools are for education and protesting can be done without schools backing on one side or another.

Dan- They can join a support group for therapy with structure set by a doctor. I simply feel school clubs should not be where this is done. Debating the issue like in a debate club is structured not only on the topic, but in ways of debate..but allowing the school to sponsor such clubs would be destructive in nature. But then again it be more upto how

Sheryl- ??? So your saying the kids only have one scholarship base? Why support a community that doesnt support your company views. I think its wrong for the people who are the benefactors of philanthropy to also determine if and when it should be distributed. Free Speech is great but we are also responsible for our actions and what we say. People made a choice, and choice for the kids... I guess I see both sides on this..

Sheryl- Law? Canidates have always been associated with their religous views. Not a McCain supporter but understand he wants someone of same basis of faith...

Carol ... so are you willing to deny formation of this club based on the possibility that they might overstep their bounds? Seems kind of unfair to me. Why not just monitor activity to make sure they stay in bounds?

Jimmy Carter's heart may hav been in the right place. That's as much credit as I can give him. Looking at his recent writings and statements, I'd have to say that he does a lot in the area of self-interest.

So Donald ... it's OK to have these types of clubs as long as they support your agenda? You must be a liberal ... er ... I mean "progressive".

Yeah, Donald, you're right. It is so much more important that he later remarked that her prefers one religion to another than the fact that he stated that "the number one issue" people should consider in voting is whether the person will "carry on in the Judeo Christian principled tradition..." Seems like a difficult thing for a Hindu or Muslim to do, no?

McCain was speaking on his beliefs, and it was about the office of president, not cabinet positions if he were president.

obesity is not about over-eating, it is about more what you eat. Smoking is dangerous and there is no question on that one. I do think the money train of tobacky taxes is about to crash.

Admire carter for his double digit inflation, increased pay role taxes, gave away the Panama Canal, allowed the military to falter...enough for now

McCain is SO yesterday. He's like Newt. WHO CARES?

ANti-abortion is a religious movement attempting to impose morals/ideology. As such, not on my taxdollar. There's a church on every corner. They can form all the religious clubs they wish on private property and impose upon those who choose to enter their grounds any rules, (within the law) they desire. The school is a public place, like the courthouse lawn and a function of law. As our founders wisely wrote: "no law respecting religion" = no religion in public schools.

Tax the smokers to oblivion, or before they die of lung cancer.

Sam ...

Anti-abortion is NOT a religious movement. It is supported by certain religions, but it is a moral issue that transcends religion and society.

If you're OK with additional tax on smoking, are you also willing to pay extra tax for ...
- larger cars?
- import cars?
- "old" fuel technology?
- pets?
- obesity?
- alcohol?

Anybody who reads my articles knows that I despise smoking as much as anybody, but you can't depend on sin taxes to foot the bill for everything.

LA R- Listen, point is the guy supports his religous faith and if you do not agree fine, do not vote for him, but he is allowed last time I checked his personal views which is what he was stating.

LA R- I did not see he selected one religon, he gave a belief structure. Catholic, Mormon, Jewish, Methodist, Baptist....nope.. generalized base of faith. ?

"Judeo Christian principled tradition" ... All Abrahamic religions originate from Judaism as practiced in ancient kingdoms of Israel and Judah. Shhhh secret of the day Islam is an Abrahamic religion. Hindu, most, believe spirtuality can be achieved through most religions as long as it done in sincerity.

Dan- Saying a school club should not have an agenda besides education. Key club for example is about volunteering and citizenship, Frech Club about French culture, history and extention to the language often.

Having a club for Anti-Abortion or Pro Life is making the school take sides, even if both are supported. School advisors are paid for this? NO.

School clubs also represent the school and community, spend public funds, and should not be playing into special interest protests.

Dan- Agree the sin tax also is being paid at state level. Feds are not the only tax, and my state honestly nails the tax on cigs 3 bucks a pack, and wants to add nother 50 cents.

Donald - My only point is that I am not "spinning" anything. He said what he said and it does exclude some religious beliefs. My opinion on the subject? I don't think it should matter what religion a candidate is if they can do the best for the country. That being said, I know that, in modern day (and in US history so far), it does matter. One need not look further than the fear surrounding Kennedy as a Catholic or Romney as a Mormon to know that.

Sam - I am Pro-Choice, but not for any religious reasons. I disagree that being anti-abortion is simply a religious-based decision. It is a political issue. Just because most religious organizations view it as a religious issue does not mean that it is SOLELY a religious issue.

I think the point of kids forming organizations at a school is to help them understand what it means to be a participating citizen in a democracy. There are gun clubs in a school - does that mean there cannot be anti-gun clubs in a school? There are clubs having to do with agriculture and forestry in a school - does that mean that there cannot be clubs having to do with presevation of our environment and awareness around it? I think most administrators and educators can help guide students into what is appropriate and what is not. The point of the Philomath documentary was that one organization held a monetary prize over the heads of the town, demanding what was going to happen in a school system. They were specifically opposed to a Gay Awareness group of students and wanted them silenced and disbanded. Again, they have every right to do what they want with their money - I personally believe that it was a very bad lesson that they were teaching the students in doing so.

Dan,

I was merely opening up for discussion the possibility that an intention to engage in such activitites might have been one of the reason permission to form it was denied. The purpose for establishing the club was not stated in the article and for all we know, an intent to overstep bounds might have been expressed.

Melinda - The school is in Stafford, VA. South of Fairfax on 95.

OK, is it fair to say the Anti Abortion movement 99% religious? Is anti abortion the main reason the religious right is considering a 3rd party candidate if Rudy wins? Let's get real. There may be secular reasons/support to defeat abortion rights but they are politically insignificant. I don't know this school but I'd wager there's a church behind this drive. Ergo impositon of religion.

Fair or not tobacco tax is politically safe.

Sam- I do not think its religon that moves it, its the social morality, and civil liberties which ponder the right and wrong in the action.

Sam- Agree on tobacco as safe to tax..problem is states are already taxing it..soon it will be a black market item.

Sheryl- Anti Abortion is a statement, not an educational statement. Gun clubs educate the safe use of guns and most target shoot as an activity. Agricultural clubs like 4H and FFA do teach enviromental issues. Citizen club, volunteer club, clubs like Key Club are for citizenship and democracy...

Anti-Abortion club? Sorry its clearly a statement not a club. I trust the school board and school officals made the right choice. Schools have the right to approve or disprove clubs in most cases. One is basic funding, so they limit the clubs that are associated with the school. They also become liability issues and honestly it would be a hard sell for a school board to accept it. Much depends on the mission statement of the club.

Donald - again you miss my point. What you are referring to is "training" - what I am referring to is "education". We can train kids on the safe way to use a gun, sure. We can also educate kids on the correct way to make their voices heard within society as a group. What is the point of the Gay Rights Orgs in a school? My town high school has one. I have no problem with that. They learn how to organize around a shared cause, talk to people among the group about shared issues, raise awareness with others, etc. Basically, learn how to be good citizens.

We have gotten so far away from that in this country. The minute we see an issue where people are polarized, we immediately assume that there can be no middle ground, that people cannot bring up a subject because there will be shouting and name-calling and possibly violence, etc. When I was growing up in the 60's people TALKED ABOUT THINGS at school. We learned to voice our opinions, we learned the outlets of peaceful political change, we learned to speak to each other and our representatives. What is the harm of educating a student to do that?

And Sam, I agree that probably most of the anti-abortion people are so on religious grounds, which they probably would not separate from morality. But, when being able to voice your anti-abortion opposition in a secular government, kids probably do not get too much help from their parents if religiously motivated. Consider this, too. When students join a group such as this one under a qualified mentor/teacher, they also are probably exposed to a realistic view of the opposing opinions. If they had been raised in a home where Pro-Choice equated to Babykillers, then this would be part of the education process, too.

Anti-abortion group? You mean "Pro Life" -- two different things.

By the way, thanks for doing this, Lauren.

No, actually, Diana, I think both sides in the abortion issue are actually "pro-life" . One side believes that it is up to a woman and her doctor to decide, the other side thinks that women should not have any right to decide and abortion is wrong in all circumstances.

Sheryl- What about the rights of the father? I mean if he was involved in making the child, and has the legal liability if the woman chooses to keep the child to provide support, should he also have the right if we wants the child and have her pay support?

Should a parental choice be made by only one parent?

What happen to equal rights? Father should sue the mother for emotinal distress over an abortion...

I also want to say it is not gun training. Safe use of firearms is education and sport. Skeet shooting, Match shooting are only a couple sports clubs that involve guns. ANTI ABORTION is not an education, its is a statement and view on a topic. It is one thing to talk about the issues in school, but it is another to have a school club, which again respresents the school and community. Should we have an OJ is Innocent School Club?

If the "club" (and please let's not pretend a church is not behind this) is purely "educational" then why not tax payer funded detailed sex education from early puberty? Why not rite and methods of Catholicism or Buddism or Islam or Mormonism? Wicca? Or would "education" on these constitute endorsement? How about socialized economics and the history of captialist evils? The educational merits of Michael Moore's "Farenheit 911?"

The anti abortion club is just one more attempt to inject Judeo-Christian fundementalism into the secular world, an attempt to shape young people along religious/ideological lines and subvert Constitutional seperatation.

Donald - once again, you totally miss the point and bring things to extremes in relation to the school club issue. Please go back and at least give me the respect of re-reading and thinking about my comments.

As for the fathers of an embryo having rights to sue, I personally believe that is ludicrous. At the point in time an abortion is legal, it should be legally up to the woman to decide. That is my opinion and the way that most courts would see it, too. That being said, it would be nice if the man responsible for the pregnancy would step up to the plate and be part of the decision. I think we both know that it is because the man whose sperm was responsible for the fertilized egg does not want to be a father and has no desire to support said child and mother, either financially, or more importantly, emotionally. Also, I believe a woman has a right to decide is SHE is emotionally ready to have a child, since she will be the primary caregiver and needs to consider the welfare of the child and herself if she is not. I don't wish to get into a discussion about abortion, though....just wanted to respond to your questions.

"The anti abortion club is just one more attempt to inject Judeo-Christian fundementalism into the secular world, an attempt to shape young people along religious/ideological lines and subvert Constitutional seperatation."

Sam - this is exactly the same kind of language used by religious groups who fight against gay alliance clubs in the schools. We can't just allow for groups with whom we agree. Based on the fact that schools have tight budgets and teachers have a premium of time to spend advising groups in schools, the administration and staff will probably come to an equatable decision on what balance to strike. If they don't, parents should get involved with the school boards and administrations to voice their concerns about it.

Sam- Please provide me where there is a requirement to keep church out of schools. If you read it, shall not be a state church. Like England's governmental church. School books are provided to church schools from secular schools, authorized by Supreme Court. Bible clubs are allowed in schools, same with Koran Clubs.. Health Education starts in 6-7th grade so there is sex education. There are also religous clubs based on the cultural aspects, verse pro-life- pro choice where its more of a statement and cause.

Sheryl- I have read your comments and views but feel there is a big difference. I also want to again mention before school clubs are created in most cases they submit a mission statement, club plans to the school and school board...often this is where the choices of approving or disapproving.. The name alone could cause problems, verses a debate club that could still tackle the subject matter.

Sheryl- Abortion is legal, but again if the choice to have the child is the womans, then she should hold full financial liability if the father wants an abortion then. The choice to have sex was made..by both, both are responsible, both should have same rights then on having or not having the child.

Sheryl- I believe if a woman is old enough to make the choice to have sex then she needs to deal with the circumstances. I do not think using abortion as an eraser or birth control after the fact is the answer. Female wants the child, what about the males emotional state to be a father and support the child ?

Why assume the mother will automaticly be the primary caregiver..isnt that assumptive?

Sheryl- I see this more of parental rights issue then abortion issue. I would like to see men have equal parental rights and choices for from the start.

Sheryl- You mention a gay alliance group..what about an anti-gay club? What if they masked it by naming it Hetrosexual alliance group.

Sheryl- I enjoy exchanging ideas and continue to express your opinions and insights.

What kind of church would you prefer Don? I understand half the student body of Jeb Stuart HS in Virginia is Muslim. Should there be Imams preaching sharia law? What about the other half, Baptists, Methodists, Fundys of all sorts, Pentacostals. Daily "speaking in touges" with Pastor Bob? Healing sessions in gym? Or religious warfare in the halls?

Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion, or the free exercise thereof.

The statement is elegant and complete. THe function of government, Federal to municipal is to enact law. No law can be made in regards to /respecting religion. Schools are a creation of law and public property. Public means everybody of every faith. Therefore to protect all faiths is to relegate all faiths outside public law and institution. That what Jefferson meant in his letter to the persecuted Danbury Baptists: There is a "wall of seperation between church and state." To allow any group representing any specific faith ascendancy via law is unConstitutional.

Just how long would the anti-abortion movement last if Christians worldwide "removed the log from their own eye instead of the speck in their neigbors?" Seriously, can anyone say there would be debate, let alone legal challenge, if the religious right spent more time with the Beatitudes and less fund raising for the RNC?

melinda-Show me where its says to keep church out of school.. I have no problem having religon in schools as long as its freedom of religon. So a child should not say grace at lunch? I can see not forcing the kids, but a school has no right to stop a child from open displays of faith.

Melida-Right they can, but what is the mission statement of the club, and what educational benefit will be gained by promoting anti abortion...

sam- You must understand that you can have religon in school, but not force it on the student body. Schools can have religous activities as long as the include not exclude.

Congress can not establish a State religon, and seperation of church and state..can public school books be donated to church when they are no longer needed? Sure Can! Can churches use school to have services? Sure Can!

Schools can provide classes of elective choice of any religous choice. The class can not be forced on the student body. Public school for example can have christianity class as an elective. Muslim class as an elective. It can not require the class be taken and students must select the elective.

The use of warrents from towns who have no high school for the children to attend a school of choice, even if it is private, or religous base is legal.

Jefferson- The man who had relationships with his slaves..and then almost a couple hundred years later, Clinton who had relations with his interns... Men sure haven't progressed much..LOL

Sam- republicans were handed religous votes quickly after Clinton was caught..I also heard Monica is protesting the tobacco tax..wonder why...HAHAHA

Abortion is a moral issue. Morality is a great debate and discussion tool for students. They get to figure out what's going on for themselves before they get to college and some politically correct professor tries to influence the students on their own agenda.

This country was founded on Christian-Judeo principles, what's wrong with wanting to keep them?

Oh the politically correct cigarette tax, why don't we raise the tax on booze, that kills way more people and causes much more destruction.

Melinda- however, the educational value of having an abortion or not, would not name the club Anti-Abortion.. Would you allow a Pro Slavery club? Doubt it would pass...even though it could be educational.

Melinda-WRONG, actualy any school that does not allow prayer in a public school is in violation of the childs constitutional rights. States and schools must certify they have no policy barring it or they will be stripped of the ESEA funding. If you want to joust about this I would love to further educate.

Sharon- I agree on the increased tax on booze..However, some alcoholic beverages have been proven a health benefit, where smoking has not.

Masterbation is also a moral question to some but do not see the reason to have an Anti-Masterbation School Club...

Teaching both sides is fine but also the club would require a mentor, and what if no teacher desired it..many areas I could see problems.