Troubled Christian Needs Help
Dear friends, of all religions. I have a mounting problem, a troubled mind you might say. I feel as if I am doing religious jumping jacks. My situation is this; I joined a small Baptist church about two years ago and have learned more about the scriptures in these two years than I have in my 48 years prior. The problem is though as I learn I find myself becoming or should I say fighting becoming a judger and hater of all things not Christian in the churches sense of the word. This is not me! I love everyone and all people. I do not condemn any religion or people for there beliefs. The only truism I hold onto is that Jesus was the son of God or man whatever you like and that he died for us so we can have eternal life not only after death but while we live here in the flesh through honesty and love. However, the church seems to see things differently, not only the Baptist but many other denominations. They all seem to think that they have the right to speak for God. Nevertheless, in my mind I find none of them truly teaching the conscience of God but just espousing words from the bible by men who in some cases seems to divide people versus bringing them together. I am feeling that the bible is not so much the word of God but the condemnation by men to man. Does God really want us to forever forsake our lives and grasp onto a notion that the only time life becomes whole is after death? I do not see it this way but as I stated life here in the now brings us to life in the after. We are to be and use every gift that God has given us to enjoy this sacred nest called earth and the wondrous human forms. The hate speeches and condemnation must end and all people must live together in a clean and loving matter. I love my church but I feel I am at a crossroad. A place that now calls me to move on, probably not to another church but to roam amongst different peoples and groups maintaining my love and teaching in the highest senses for the Lamb of God. This is not a blessing or pass for those who practice promiscuity, lying, hate, murder, child abuse, cheating on friends with there girlfriends or boyfriends, pornography and other acts of hurtful and jealously ways. They will be judged and the outcome will come silently in the night through broken homes, substance abuse, and in some cases death for all acts against the spirit of another reverberates ten fold onto the perpetrator.
So my question turned statement is this what would you do, continue with the harsh reality of the scripture or follow my heart?
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Comments: 54
I firmly believe that God speaks to us through our hearts...through that little voice inside which some might refer to as our conscience. I used to go from church to church looking for that "perfect" place that would be in line with what I believe and with what I believe God wants of me. I never really found such a church...but came to realize that it doesn't really matter. I am not beholding to any religious denomination. I am beholding to God. He is the only one I have to answer to, and as long as I am doing what I believe He wants me to do, than I am happy. So even though I do continue to go to church (a non-denominational one), I put all of my faith and trust in God alone....not in those who run the church.
As far as the scripture goes, I believe it is the word of God. I also believe different people interpret it differently. I read it alone and pray for God to speak to my heart and receive the message He would like for me to receive. Another firm belief I have is that God does not want Christians to condemn people or judge people. He wants us to reach out to others in love. If they are crawling in the dirt, He wants us to crawl with them if that is the only way we can reach them. Nobody will ever be reached for Christ by pointing fingers and condemnation. LOVE is the answer and the only answer. If and when God tells me differently, then I will change my thought...but for now, this is what He has convicted me of.
Very good discussion question...:)
Cheryl, you are obviously much further along with your spiritual journey than I am with mine....I aspire to that ability to tolerate other's slowness and hope to have friends who are able to tolerate my own....
I joined the Baptist (Southern Baptist) church because I was brought up in the 'frozen chosen' environs of the Presbyterian church....the Baptists would at least talk about a person relationship with God, whereas the Presbyterians would not--indeed, would look offended that anyone would bring up the subject in polite company.
I left the Baptist church because while I had one or two friends who understood the true meaning of 'holding accountable' the rest of the congregation misinterpreted my being part of the group as license to judge.
Even now, I still get hang-up calls from deacons who have 'taken me on' their list of members to care for....they call and don't leave a message so they can say that they called and didn't get an answer with a clear conscience (I have caller i.d.).
Keep the Bible, lose the congregation and it's interpretation of 'we love everybody--as long as they look and act like us'. (That is NOT what the Bible teaches). Anytime 'social fitness' becomes more important than spiritual beliefs, it is time to move on. God doesn't dwell in that house.
What you've described as being in your heart strikes me as being similar to what the Unitarians preach. I'm not a deist but if I were, I think they would be closest to my beliefs as well.
John, it appears what you are describing here and unfortunantly suffering is the practice of "legalism" and "religion" Religion was responsible for bringing down the towers and has been responsible for more hatred and bloodshed than all history's wars combined. Religion is man's attempt to reach and/or please God..... Christianity is God's provision. His unconditional gift to us (if we choose it) to enable us to do just that.... If hatred rears it's ugly head OTHER than for the actual sin and NOT the people indulging themselves in it, then the gospel is not being demonstrated as Christ taught and instructed us... His death on the cross was endured so ALL persons who have, do or will accept him as their personal Lord and Savior can be forgiven and saved.... The changing and growing of ourselves though is done by HIM from the inside out, not the outside in... Is a baby born able to jump and run? It's the difference of either having the Lord in our heads or our hearts. The head thing doesnt work very well and futher, is responsible for thousands either rejecting Christ else backsliding into a defeated life. That's the enemy's intent so don't fall for it my friend...... We all get quite passionant at times, even angry but I always tell folks that you can't stop a bird from flying over your head and dropping a mess on it BUT you can prevent that same bird from building a nest in your hair. When you have needs, go directly to your Heavenly Father.... Don't rely entirely on his servants as they are just men and can and do mess up as we all do...... I hope this may have helped you just a little.. One last note. I don't see Scripture as harsh..... Concentrate more on the New Testament my friend which shows God's plan, purpose and intent of the Old Testiment and should lighten your load a wee bit.
And PLEASE, my friend. In your vulnerable spritual state, DON'T get caught up in ANY of the teachings of the new age movement!
That was very subjective and judgmental - judge not that you will be judged
I say follow your heart
Merely a caution, Sunaura.. But no need to worry as God didn't bring him this far just to let him fall through the cracks of confusion now.....
John, I applaud you for questioning this and you are certainly right to. This has been my complaint about many of the fundamentalist Christian denominations. They throw out the spirit of Christianity and the true teachings of Jesus and give in to judgment, prejudice and hatred--not what Jesus taught. Check out denominations such as Methodist, Church of Christ, or Unity (of which I'm a member). These are more progressive Christian denominations which do not preach the teachings that you are experiencing in the Baptist church. My family members in Assembly of God have pretty much ostracized me because I don't believe the same as they do. Look for love and compassion in the church you attend.
What Carla said. Follow your Heart and seek Truth with Love.
I don't find a harsh reality in the scriptures but love and compassion in the New Testament. I, like you, have found far too many attitudes of judgement in different denominations who claimed to honor Cchrist the Lord which often lead people astray and into a too narrow condition to follow Christ. They feel they are but I see them actually doing a good job for the devil insead of the other way around. When they step out and condemn a whole group of people on behalf of God they are in fact speaking for themselves or the church with narrow mindedness. Christ did not tell us to condemn people for their actions but to love them and by our actions we attract them to us and to "HIS" church.
I see little honesty when some speak for God accept for their own personal engrandizement or for purposes of promoting their local church. Judy and I spent decades working on the streets reaching out to those in great need and the one thread we always found worked for us was in not condeming but only showng love. Those who are in the midst of sin already are aware and don't need some self righteous persons to tell them what they are doing is wrong. They need companionship, compassion and examples of how they can get out of the mire they find themselves within.
My advice to you is to be aware that many churches do not "teach" but they preach and end up leaving out far too many details of the bible which we need to know.
"The hate speeches and condemnation must end and all people must live together in a clean and loving matter. I love my church but I feel I am at a crossroad. "
True Christians do not condemn and hate. They love as a course of their living.
No, I don't feel God wants us to forsake our living in wait for our death. If so why do we have life to begin with? Why would we be told to love? Why would we be presented with examples of how to live for Christ? Why would we be given a "choice" something the angels nor Christ had. He has given us the highest prizes to work for in that he not only gave us choice but a way to seek salvation.
Do not let those who have lost sight of the words of the scriptures to lead you astray.
Feel free to share with me whenever you wish.
I really like your comment here, Spencer. Very well said!
Amen Spencer!
People already know when their life is horrid, they don't need a holier than thou telling them something they already know. love and compassion will draw people closer to God rather pushing them away by those who judge and condemn
Focus on the words of Christ. He tells us not to judge, he tells us to love one another as God loves us, which is unconditionally. God gave men the right to choose between good and evil! We are not allowed to take that choice from anyone. Read the bible with your heart, not the harsh words of people who want to believe themselves better then anyone else. We all fall short of the glory of God, it is only by His grace that we are saved. You will find many true Christians (followers of Christ) on Gather and in churches but they rarely let the church tell them what to believe. Listen to the still small voice in your heart, that is God.
Spencer T have you read Romans, if that is not harsh, I do not know what is! Also, 1 Corinthians 14:34 about women keeping silent. Is this the kind of world people want where women are told when to speak and when not? Another point what is your feeling on gay people, not the extreme ones who promote sexual promiscuity and drugs but the ones who live as everyone else, go to work, have families and in some instances children. I would be curious on the Christians point of view of these folks and what developed there ideas, scripture or knowing someone of that life style.
As I mentioned, John, you are quoting from the books supposedly written by Paul. Paul was a very confused man who some believe to have been homosexual himself. He has a lot fo conflicting things in his teachings. So be careful quoting Paul. Look rather at the teachings of Jesus in the four gospels.
What Carla said....and Cheryl.
We are called to love, not to judge. "For as ye judge, so shall YE be judged." is rather more to the point than the first phrase of "Judge not, lest ye be judged"....to me, 'love thy neighbor as thyself' implies that you must love also love yourself...Paul talks about hating his body and beating it. Paul was very conflicted. I believe that the ability to love others (neighbors) as Christ did (non-judgementally) depends on your definition of 'neighbor'. Some enlightened souls define neighbor as every other human being on the planet--some, only those of blood relation, skin color or pre-determined social status.
John...I will respond to your question as to how I feel, as a Christian, about gay people. I believe I am called to love them...pure and simple. I don't believe anything they do is any worse than things I do. None of us are perfect. I do not know if homosexuality is learned or if people are born that way. Only God knows that. My love for them is not based on that. My love for them is based on the fact that they are made in the image of God, just as we all are. None of us are perfect. We ALL struggle with something in our lives, whether we want to admit it or not. We all come from places that have made us into who we are. Some of us come from very scary backgrounds. Who am I to judge anyone?
It saddens me to know end the way many "Christian" churches have rejected people who are homosexual. These very people who are doing the rejecting struggle with pornography, infidelity, alcohol and drug abuse, etc...etc...etc. Is homosexuality any worse than those sins? Of course not...
Some of my best friends over the course of my life have been gay. Two wonderfully kind gay women I know adopted a little girl who had suffered horrible abuse at the hands of her parents. When nobody else loved her, they did. When nobody else, wanted her, they wanted her. Today she is happy, healthy and living a wonderful life that she otherwise would not have led.
Because there is still a question as to the genetic or hormonal issues that have been linked to homosexuality, how can we judge? If God is the creator of all life, then can we not assume that gay people are also a creation of God? Rather than treat them as flawed or sinful people, I think that Jesus would say that we love and accept them as our brothers and sisters and not cast stones.
You have said it very well. Two of the best parent I knew when I worked in childcare was wonderfully kind gay women. They adopted 2 or 3 kids from bad situations. They were always involved and wanted to know about their kids.
Cheryl, I just read your reply and all I can say is "bravo".
My brother is gay and he has trying praying away his homosexuality and repressing it. I have felt so sorry for him that he has kept himself away from a loving relationship because of the lack of acceptance and condemnation of the rest of my family. Because of this, he may go through the rest of his life alone. Very sad....
Lisa, yes, the gay people I have known are kind, sensitive and very caring people--much more so than many of the straight people I know.
More and more it seems to be that sexual preference is determined in the womb. You are who you are, God loves everyone,
being gay isnt really a choice but is a fact!
My response is much as Cheryl has said. I do not differentiate between one who is homosexual or others. I have known bisexuals and gay people for years some without knowing their sexual habits and many were much more holier than those professing to be Christian and straight. I refuse to allow societal definitions of good and bad to influence me for sometimes in the so called very best we find horrid habits or at least deeply sinful habits while they point at others as examples of sinful people. I have a lot less respect for such persons than others.
As far as the Book of Romans and any other books be it said to be written by Paul or not I find a lot to be learned for the principles stated within without getting myself mired down in the era of its time frame. One must keep in mind the verses were written in another time frame where certain conditions were acceptable then yet or not now. Does one follow to the word that we should treat even our slaves as decent people or beat our wives to keep them in line if they speak in public? Of course not or would you say slavery is acceptable because the Lord said to be good to our slaves? We learn the principles and not respond to the verbatim written word. Like in Romans 4:1-5 the lesson is easy in that those who work for personal glory are not justified unto God. But those who worked unto God are the righteous.
We can easily get hung up being overly concerned by the specific details of what went on in the societies of the era of the bible and miss the lessons within the bible. so I don't get too mired in the details of how that society operated. I am confident God would want us to progress as society moves forward in technology and sciences and not have us living using the same standards of the day back then. But I am sure many do which creates confusion and strife. Listen to the lessons and leave much of the details of how that society operated alone. also keep in mind as Paul traveled to different areas some were having troubles supporting a God they could not see and were suffering dissensions and doubt like the Corinthians and Galatians. The context in which the gospels were created is important to keep in mind.
Cheryl W. you have shown the true God nature that all of us need to understand and reflect. I will print your statement out and frame it on my wall for all to see as long as it is fine with you. This comment should be copyrighted and distributed!
Love John
Thank you, John...and feel free to use my comment however you wish. I wish that more people would open their hearts.
follow your heart, go with what you relate to and forget the rest of it :>)
I see the Baptist Church as a center of hatred. Someone suggested the Church of Christ. I was reared in that church, and it is similar to the Baptist Church and other fundamentalist churches. I say Unitarian, Methodist, Presbyterian (?), or Episcopal.
The only "religion" that I admire is Buddhism.
The United Church of Christ has become a lot more accepting and less judgmental. Anyway, that's what they're promoting and what I've heard. I've not gone to church there.
The attitudes that you discribe are rapidily causing the distruction of evangelical Christianity in the U S A. it would seem that God is speaking mor clearly in your heart than your preacher is
<it would seem that God is speaking mor clearly in your heart than your preacher is>
If the preacher's voice threatens to drown out that of God's, it's time to change churches.
"Be careful for nothing; but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God. And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. Finally, bretheren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, if there be any praise, think on these things. Those things, which ye have recieved, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you. " Philippians 4:6-9
Follow your heart. Religion does not = spirituality, and no religion is the oracle of God.
Yes! Religion is man's attempt to put structure around what we know about God--and is doomed to fail since we cannot comprehend the fullness of God...much like the fable of the six blind wise men who encounter an elephant and describe it as being like the things created by mankind...a rope, a wall, etc.
Spirituality is an openness to God revealing Himself to us as He chooses to do so.
Um wrong. The bible is God breathed written by men through the Holy Spirit. The bible IS the word of God period. No arguement . It IS cut and dry black and white
Lora, do you believe that someone who curses their parents should be put to death because that is what Jesus said. If you believe that everything is black and white, please give an answer.
So Lora, not to put you on the spot but I am curious you follow 1 Corinthians 14:34 about women keeping silent. So when you go to church you say nothing and ask nothing and rely on your husband for what the sermon was about? This is where I am confused!
But it's all in a different language now than it was written first, or at least spoken first. Jesus didn't speak Greek to everybody, and that's the earliest we have of that. How can you take something literally that you don't even really know what the words are.
(and even then, the meanings of words change so fast).
And there's also all those crazy big fat contradictions ...
It is easy to argue, ??LORA?? M. VERY easy.
The part about reincarnation was removed in order to convey the eternal hell and damnation scenario and the belief that everyone is a born sinner requiring salvation.
The ritual of communion--as Jesus performed it--is cannibalistic in nature. An uncomfortable truth and one I've never seen/heard discussed.
If Lora ever learns to actually read the Bible for herself instead of what other people tell her to think, she will be greatly surprised by what is actually contained therein.
What does "breathed written" mean Lora?
When you say it IS the word of God, the question comes: Do you observe the Sabbath?I don't think most Christians do. But, it's one of the 10 Commandments and carries the Biblical penalty of death. So anyone who doesn't observe the Sabbath might want to hope the Bible isn't the literal word of God.
Yes, Robert, and not many Christians realize that there are three versions of the 10 Commandments.
Go to the church with the best pipe organ. God may be everywhere but a good organist and organ isn't.
A thought inspired by Lora's comment? Maybe she knows and feels that she cannot be what the bible states, but each day she sins and falls short of the scriptures but feels in the end she will be compensated through everlasting life. I think this is the true Christian way and quite noble but to live this wondrous gift of God in remorse is just too much for the my conscience to bear.
<compensated>
John, as lea quotes below, our salvation is a gift from God, not something to be purchased or traded for. We are not, however, excused from the striving to live according to Jesus' teachings.
You mention remorse...."this wondrous gift of God" is a joyful thing; not even God expects us to be perfect! If guilt and shame bring us to repentance of our sins and a determination to strive against our sins once more--that is healthy. But judging ourselves to the point that we are unable to forgive ourselves for our humanity...isn't the divine example of forgiveness also one we are expected to emulate? And continuing to tear ourselves--and others-- apart on the basis of our 'unworthiness' is denying the blessing of God's forgiveness and the sacrifice that Jesus made FOR US.
I've heard a lot of excessive guilt, shame and condemnation preached as the word of God...Jesus did not condemn others (except for the hypocrites in the temple!), instead He forgave them. That is love...
Lora - Put down that shrimp, no shellfish. Oh and sell your daughter. That old testament is a pip.
John, Ephesian chap.2 verse 8
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
That's just the way it is. There is nothing you can do or not do to earn it John.
Go to www.truthforlife.org
for free download from Mr. Begg, he is from Scotland and very good.
I think you have some more studying to do and soul searching.
John:
I sympathize. And I think I am in a similar situation. With some changes. I am a catholic who no longer believes what most catholics believe. Yet I still attend mass. I still do cantor duty. I yearn for an honest and candid conversation about belief, about doctrine, about god and religion. But I have not found anything. so I keep my peace.
I think I can say that I wouldn't feel right not going to church. You have to be realistic about your upbringing. About who you are. About what seems right. But slowly, a leaf at a time, you have to go with God. Find your own way. Let go and let God. Abandon those doctrines and preachers who preach them. Believe that future churches will look and feel a lot different. Because people will demand it. They will rise up. they will vote with their feet. This is the way god works. God whispers. In the still of the night. Thoughts come. Doubts. It is what makes life rich. It is what brings about change. It is the course of creation and redemption. It is God at work.
Cheers.
Jim
I know I have been saved by Gods Grace and I value that gift more than my life but my problem is with the tone of the scriptures. They seem to go along just fine until we get to Paul's writings? But we are told that Paul was chosen by Jesus to build the church and spread the word. I just feel that he put some of his own bias and pain into his writings and not just the Good new of Jesus hence a very crippling effect on the conscience of man.
I think we need a new Ecumenical council made up of all religious groups to rewrite the scriptures, this time with focus on love and salvation through the Holy Spirit of God and the salvation from the blood of Jesus and not moral servitude from people who may not have been in the best position to teach it. I say leave morality to the family and state and leave salvation to God.
It is difficult to sort out the doctrinal from the cultrual in St. Paul. the remark afout women which has been called Headship and Submission is clearly courtal. Paul also condemns me who wear their har long. Corinth was a sespool wher anything goes and generally did.Paul is trying to seperat out the tiny christan community from the larger group
It appears your delima has more to do with scripture than it does with a church.
Precisely but the good folks in the church are governed by the scriptures.
Is it the scriptures or the interpretation being preached?
..."governed by scriptures" that the good folks in the church think were written by God.
The Bible was written by men, who may have had some inspiration but what is inspiration? And their writing was based on previous religious thought and their experience and viewpoint.
Ask yourself if it makes sense that God would dictate that a woman who is found to be a virgin on her wedding night would be taken to her father's door to be stoned to death, unless her father has the money to pay the leaders of the community. Or if a man sees a woman's menstrual blood they both must be banished from the community. -- No... the Bible was written by men.