TALK, DOUBLE TALK, and the PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION
The upcoming Presidential election appears to be shaping up as a referendum for those candidates who are pro God in the 'right sense' versus those who do so 'wrongly', not enough, or are not at all that concerned.
For example, Governor Mitt Romney gave a recent speech explaining the crucial significance that faith has for him and by extension so too should any leader of our country. In his attempt to put the matter at rest he raised more questions than provided definitive answers. In his speech he said: "
He notes that our country has been careful to separate religion from government but with an important qualification:
"I will take care to separate the affairs of government from any religion, but I will not separate us from 'the God who gave us liberty."
His qualification, if followed, goes a long way to blurring the boundaries separating church and state. Governor Romney says:"We separate church and state affairs in this country, and for good reason. No religion should dictate to the state nor should the state interfere with the free practice of religion. But in recent years, the notion of the separation of church and state has been taken by some well beyond its original meaning. They seek to remove from the public domain any acknowledgment of God. Religion is seen as merely a private affair with no place in public life. It is as if they are intent on establishing a new religion in America - the religion of secularism. They are wrong."
He does not explicitly clarify what he means by 'the religion of secularism' but the implicit intention is to make those who are not of the faithful appear odious the equivalent of 'liberals' in the last elec tion. Governor Romney concludes:And you can be certain of this: Any believer in religious freedom, any person who has knelt in prayer to the Almighty, has a friend and ally in me. And so it is for hundreds of millions of our countrymen: We do not insist on a single strain of religion — rather, we welcome our nation's symphony of faith. "
His conclusion implies that his friends and allys may have different religions but they had better have the same attitude towards faith. Therefore woe those 'secularists' who lack faith therefore are to be shunned.
Governor Romney clearly lays out the key concepts associated with the role of religion and the state. These are: God, Jesus the Christ, religion, faith, and secularism.
Whereas it might appear that religiosity in the United States has overwhelming numbers of adherents research indicates otherwise.
Evidence for [secular opposition movement] is the survey published by the Graduate Center of the City University of New York American Religious Identification Survey, 2001, by Barry A. Kosmin, Egon Mayer, and Ariela Keysar. This study finds a significant increase in the number of adult Americans who profess no religion. Today there are 29.4 million American adults who have no religious identification—an increase since 1990 from 8.16 percent to 14.17 percent. Moreover, the number of people who reside in a household whose members do not belong to a religiohttp://www.secularhumanism.org/ Paul Kurtz
Perhaps more to the point what Governor Romney and others including President Bush} mean by faith is only one definition of that term excluding others that are of equal if not greater value than theirs.
Alternative definitions of the concept of faith are derived from a distinction made between religion and spirituality.
"In recent years, spirituality in religion often carries connotations of a believer having a faith more personal, less dogmatic, more open to new ideas and myriad influences, and more pluralistic than the doctrinal/dogmatic faiths of mature religions. It also can connote the nature of believers' personal relationship or "connection" with their god(s) or belief-system(s), as opposed to the general relationship with a Deity as shared by all members of a given faith."
In http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirituality In this connection the thesaurus distinquishes between altertive defintions of faith as follows: 1 -Roget's New Millennium™ Thesaurus - Cite This Source - Share This | |||||||||||
| faith | |||||||||||
| noun 2 | |||||||||||
| Definition: | belief | ||||||||||
| Synonyms: | canon, church, communion, confession, connection, conviction, credo, creed, cult, denomination, doctrine, dogma, doxy, gospel, orthodoxy, persuasion, piety, piousness, principle, profession, religion, revelation, sect, teaching, tenet, theism, theology, worship | ||||||||||
| Antonyms: | disbelief, unbelief
2:
The main distinction is that faith in the first sense is a bi product of projected authority in which a person follows certain prescribed rules and unquestioned beliefs.
In the second definition, faith, is a bi product of individuals struggling with struggle to make personal meanings, to persevere in the midst of great trials and tribulations, to hope, trust, love and do service because it makes good sense to do so not because one is forced to do so or they are sinners.
The former definition of faith is exclusive, the second is inclusive. If Governor Romney means what he says about protecting the rights of all the citizens of the U.S. then he needs to broaden his understanding of what he means by faith and share it with the American people.
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Comments: 66
In other words, secularism is completely divorced from the supernatural thinking that propels religion, and is based instead on intellect and reason, obviously concepts unfamiliar to Romney and his "allies".
I wasn't around in 1846 so that statement may very well have been true then but today's american secularist commandoes are in fact vehemently anti-Chrisitan.
In no uncertain terms...I HATE LEFTISTS. I WILL SHOW THEM NO CIVILITY WHATSOEVER>>>>I WILL NEVER CONCED TO THEIR DEGENERATE AGENDA AND ANYONE WHO HAS A PROBLEM WITH THAT CAN F--K OFF
Great article, though.
I will grant that many who are religious are far more "spiritual" than others as you have shown in your two examples ... but true Spirituality is transcendent to Religion(s), it being the Primacy of a personal relationship to a God not limited to religious definitions. Something that most people professing religion have yet to experience and thus actually having no real awareness of it as yet. Yet those w/o such spiritual experience too often speak of it using words of comparative "shallow" understandings as related to the unexperienced depth and essence which they miss.
I believe that many "secularists" and many "atheists", ACTUALLY ARE more Spiritual than many religionists.
To have someone leading this nation that is unaware of these distinctions and thus unappreciative of the most transcendent understandings, would be a real shame ... but nothing at all new ... just business as usual ... sadly.
Looks like Dana gets lost in the stupid phrases he memorizes from right-wing nuts.
"some time of secularist open border...yadayadayada"
What time shall we set the alarm?
Who are these fascinating people, the "secularist commandoes"?
I am afraid I'll never see them, that they live only in Dana's pea-sized brain.
As far as my politics are concerned I am a conservative liberal if I have to type myself. My idea of a true leader is George Washington, Abe Lincoln. Statesmen regarless of party affiliation. People who are truly trustable: who mean what they say and say what they mean. They have a minumum of double talk and when confronted with the facts - if they err or mis speak - own up and learn from their errors.
Surely you must have met a secularist or two you would like to have lunch with and by the same token know a few of your idenitfying group you would like to wring their necks at least some of the time. No?
Dana, disagree as much as you like, but don't offend others - that's incivility. If you're Christian, your religion tells you to turn the other cheek when maltreated or to shake the dust from your sandals for those who won't listen to you. Somewhere, the Bible says, "Vengence is Mine says the Lord." Vengance, therefore isn't Man's.
No that's free speech. Just like the NYT times publishing pictures of a cricifix in a vat of urine and liberals going gaga over it right....
But oh wait....piss christ is ok but we can't have cartoons of mohammed ....oh no that would be offensive..
We can't display the ten commandments in a courtroom because that violates the separation of church and state but it's a-ok for the university of michigan, a public school to install foot baths for muslims.
Some homosexual activists paint a picture of the last supper with a homosexual bondage theme and it's a celebrated by the left yet leftists moonbats are heartbroken because a bunch of scumbag terrorists in gitmo aren't allowed to have the quarans...
We can't have crosses on Mt soledad in California because the aclu doesn't like seeing them there yet every single fucking person in the area around mt soledad wants them there.....
Anyone that doesn't admit the fact that the far left has a problem with christianity and not with religion in general is full of shit.... It's the last politically correct form of bigotry in this nation......
You said you're fair and reasonable gibbs.. well so am I .... i can admit that those religious fundamentalists on the extreme right telling everyone that they're going to hell ought to just shut the fuck up...can you admit that the secularist commandoes on the left proclaiming to be for the separation of church and state and then singling out christianity also ought to shut the fuck up?
Back to Mitt Romney for a minute. Geez! I've been really brooding about this one. His parents were close friends of my husband's parents, and Mitt was a student of my husband at Cranbrook! Not a particularly distinguished student, not a great intellect, and completely overshadowed by his parents, people of very strong personality. I'm surprised I even remember him, but I do. He was very much a second string kind of kid. I'm sure you know what I mean. I have great difficulty thinking of him as a potential President of the United States! On the whole, I'm not particularly happy about the candidates for either party. I'm very worried about where we're headed, and religion is the least of my worries. We've never needed a genuine first-rate president more badly than right now! What we seem to be getting is a bunch of potential rock stars.
Umm where in any of my posts did I say I was a Christian? Do you mind pointing that one out?
Oh and if my memory serves me correctly it seems as if John Kerry actually had a worse GPA than Bush at Yale...I'm just curious....did you vote for Kerry?
I suggest we just ignore him.
I told you why two comments ago. try to keep up.
I am featuring your article in my Holiday Sale on Gather today.
Like you, religion is not my bag. I also happen to think that rabid religious belief is responsible for most of the harm done to groups of people by other groups of people, in all countries, throughout history. This Dana person is a shinning example of the hatred that engulfs the brains of most fanatics like himself...
Just a spewer of vitriol.
It reminds me of the psychological profile we see in the asocial, usually white, usually youngish, males who grab a gun and start mowing down folks at the nearest high school or mall...
It is a curious thing how many find it necessary to project the frame of an organized belief system onto those that reject other organized belief systems.
I have observed that the world has suffered far less from ignorance than from pretensions to knowledge. It is not skeptics or explorers but fanatics and ideologues who menace decency and progress. No agnostic ever burned anyone at the stake or tortured a pagan, a heretic, or an unbeliever.
--Daniel Boorstin
That's the danger in slipping into a theocracy. Once a religion is sanctioned, all who question, who think, who suggest an alternative are at risk.
It isn't, I believe, that "secularists" are rabidly anti-Christian. It is that, today, they know enough of the benefits of science that they don't want it corrupted when religious folks reject it out of ignorance. It is that they know enough of history not to silently sit back and risk themselves and their friends to the vagaries of religious intolerance.
So you're suggesting that all people who follow an organized religion reject science completely? And you're calling other people ignorant?
You said you're fair and reasonable gibbs.. well so am I .... i can admit that those religious fundamentalists on the extreme right telling everyone that they're going to hell ought to just shut the fuck up...can you admit that the secularist commandoes on the left proclaiming to be for the separation of church and state and then singling out christianity also ought to shut the fuck up?
Would you please be specific and provide some evidence for your hysterical charge that secularists are anti Christain. In my experience most secularists like the ACLU tend to support diversity as long as it is not in turn shoved down their throats. You respect my boundaries, I will respect yours. But intrude on me and there will be hell to pay.
Persons with well-considered convictions aren't concerned that others do not agree with them; their convictions do not require the support of every other person in order to be valid..
Religion in this country is so unhitched to any intellectual tradition (e.g., the "megachurch" phenomena), is so self-congratulatory, and so constrained in it's thinking about faith and culture, that many adherents are totally "lost" when they encounter opposition.
The decline of 'main line" Protestantism, and the rise of the various evangelical movements has had serious consequences for religion in american life.
It is not skeptics or explorers but fanatics and ideologues who menace decency and progress. No agnostic ever burned anyone at the stake or tortured a pagan, a heretic, or an unbeliever.
--Daniel Boorstin
My greatest fear for our country is that we will fall into the same religiosity that fueled the Inquisition and the Salem witch hunts of past centuries.
There is so much hatred spewing forth from the Evangelical fanatics that it has tainted the rest of those who are of the Christian faith...in so much as Christianity embraces both Catholicism, and the many differing Protestant denominations such as Lutheran, Anglican, Baptist and so on...
"For the first time I'm stepping out of my pew because I've been inspired. I've been inspired to believe that a new vision is possible for this country." (Emphases not by me. She really did stress those words.)
"Stepping out of my pew?" I've never heard one that before. Is that a real idiom, or was it created for this occasion?
You're damn right I do.
Now's the part where you offer up some bullshit moonbat explanation of why I shouldn't....Don't leave me hanging.
Maybe we'll get really lucky and have another 911 style attack before Christmas. That would make a great present for you wouldn't it Gibbs?
Bottom line. What others do to you reflects on them. What you do to others reflects on YOU. Some people are willing to become monsters, driven by hatred and fear. Some of us are not.
"What you do to others reflects on YOU."
That's right and apprently the comments you have made reflct the fact that you're too stupid to advocate that which must be done to protect American lives. It's not hatred or fear. It's common sense. If you have a known terrorist intent on harming Americans there is a very good chance he has valuable info and if your priorities are as they should be then you would do just about anything to get that life saving info.
Bottom line?
Tell me what the bottom line is the next time we have another terroist attack that takes the lives of American civilians Stephanie. You can look in the eyes of all the mothers, fathers, hudbands wives etc of the dead and give them that load of rhetorical bullshit you just gave to us about not becoming monsters. I'm sure if you son or daughter was killed by an Islamic terrorist you'd be so greatful that we never used waterboarding on al queda members...right?
The concept of self defense violates your principles Staphanie?
I find it bizzare the lengths to which some of you will go to to protect those whose only goal in life is to murder you.
I'm glad you idiots aren't the ones in charge at Gitmo.
In our nation, we aren't even allowed to torture convicted killers have who have been proven menaces in a court of law (in fact, the constitution expressly forbids it). It's called "cruel and unusual punishment" (8th amendment).
Yet, you think that torturing someone who hasn't even been proven guilty in a court of law is SELF DEFENSE? *Sigh*
Clearly, you have been transported from 1692 Salem where confessions gathered via pressing are considered proof of wrongdoing. Some of the rest of us have moved on to the 21st century.
I live in the real world so I'm not a big fan of hypotheticals but I know you live in the theoretical world so let me ask you a simple yes or no hypothetical question Stephanie.
You are a military commander at Gitmo and you have in your possession someone that you know 100% person is a terrorist and has information about a plot to committ a terrorist act on American soil that will kill American civilians. The is absolutely no f-ing doubt as to who he is and what info he has. None. Nada. Zip...got that Stephanie? He has refused to give you any information through standard interrogation techniques.....
Do you torture him?
Why don't all you other moonbats take a stab at answering that one as well.
If I'm so sure I know what information he has, why torture him. I must already have it.
The problem is, you can't KNOW, you can only speculate unless you have proof. If you have proof, all you're looking for is confirmation (which can readily be obtained by leading a torture victim - that means nothing). If you don't have proof, you could be torturing an innocent person who might say anything, right or wrong, to get the torture to stop. And if you think desperate misinformation isn't dangerous for our troops, you're even more foolish than you seem.
There is no good reason to torture him. There are several good reasons not to. And that's before I get to my conscience.
So, no, I don't torture him. I don't reinforce all the worst propoganda the enemy has on me. I don't give them excuses to do the same to my people (and they may do it anyway, but you get less sympathy if you're the only one doing it). I don't take the risk of torturing innocent people who happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. I don't gather information I already have or try to "validate" it by force feeding it to a person in agony and calling it a confession. I don't gather new information that is unreliable because of the desperation of the person I dragged it from.
Only one of those reasons had to do with my own morality, though that would have been enough right there.
Did you happen to see which party won the elections in OH and VA this past Monday Jerry?
I do not support any party, any voting I do any more is more often based upon the lessor of two evils.
Moral courage is the most valuable and usually the most absent characteristic in men.
--Gen. George Patton
To do evil that good may come of it is for bunglers in politics as well as morals.
- William Penn
Moralizing and morals are two entirely different things and are always found in entirely different people.
-- Don Herold
I mistake the American people if they favor the odious doctrine that there is no such thing as international morality; that there is one law for a strong nation and another for a weak one, and that even by indirection a strong power may with impunity despoil a weak one of its territory.
-Grover Cleveland
Everyone has an opportunity to learn from history and the wisdom that has come before. Here's your chance.
Even the words of the Declaration of Independence call liberty an endowment. No liberty is granted to the willing prisoner. If you want to be free you, and only you must make the effort for freedom to be yours.
Romney is trying to satisfy people enslaved by faith that he is one of them, and the people who are free of the dogma that he supports them as well. He can't possibly have it both ways. People enslaved by faith almost invariably do all they can to enslave those who are not. The indoctrination starts in infancy. We are all born atheists. It takes years to teach the myths of religious belief.