Is Depression Inevitable for Artists and Creative people?

Thanks Susan. Great info. this should be posted to the mental illness support group also

Stephen, do I need to join the mental illness support group to publish it there as well?

Thanks, Susan for a great post. Monica Kennedy had an article about his a month ago. Perhaps you can read her ideas if she doesn't get to this place. Anyway, I tend to agree with Dr. Ludwig. Artist doesn't equal mental illness. It may be a good match because the artist who suffers mental disorders can still function in her/his work if it's in the field of the arts, whereas they find it difficult to continue to produce in a regimented workplace that doesn't "give", but that doesn't mean that people without mental disorders aren't just as artistic or creative. I will read at some of the sites you cite. Thanks

Susan - GREAT ARTICLE! I would love to feature it in the group Understanding and Accepting Mental Illness. This is a group for writers who have a mental illness and would like to share their experience through writing. The goal in writing through this group will be to share what our lives are like living with a mental illness(es), to educate and show that we are real people with a lot to give back to the world. You would have to join to post there, but if you do, I would make this article the feature on the home page. Thanks for a great article, even if you do not join!

Ah! the old chicken and egg argument. Are you artistic because you have depression or do you have depression because...? Thanks for leading me to Understanding and Acceptong Mental Illness. I'm off there right now.

Thanks everyone. And thanks so much for the invitation, and vote of confidence, Monica. I'm now a member of the Understanding and Accepting Mental Illness group. So now the trick is how do I re-publish this there?

Edit the article and, on the second page, click the box with the name of your new group (leave "Everybody" clicked as well so it continues to be available both outside and inside the group).

Creatively Yrs,

KC

I am very, very suspicious of this and I'm going to post an article about it soon. I've been researching this issue for years. It wasn't all that long ago that artists were defined as schizophrenics rather than as depressives, and I've found plenty of research that throws cold water on the theory that artists must be mentally ill. A couple of art historians researched this very carefully and found that, if one takes the full scope of artists through the ages, the answer is that they have every possible personality type. Yeah, a few are definitely crazy, but the vast majority of SUCCESSFUL artists definitely are not. The name of the book is "Born Under Saturn." I can't give you the names of the authors because someone borrowed my copy but you could probably locate it by the title. Frankly, I think there's a very deep underlying prejudice against artists that causes this kind of definition of them, and it does a tremendous amount of harm. One thing I've seen happen, having taught in both, is schools or art and creative writing programs with students sent to them -- because they must be creative since they were definitely mentally ill. And on the other hand, God help the poor artist who goes to a psychologist and admits to being an artist. Whether correct or not, the diagnosis is guaranteed.

KC - Thanks - that was quick and painless!
Monica - OK, it's up on your group & I appreciate the feature!

I sicced Monica on ya susan

Very informative article. I do think, however, that there are a number of people who are creative and not mentally ill. Though the NAMI (National Alliance for the Mentally Ill) also includes depression; a lot of people are diagnosed as depressed. But I do think thta Meryl makes a point.

Very informative, Susan. I'd be interested to hear an opinion on the number of mentally ill who do not seek treatment and are therefore undiagnosed and not counted in the study. In the business world, there is still that stigma and taboo at the higher levels. It's really unfortunate.

Hi Meryl - I don't know about "God help the poor artist who goes to a psychologist and admits to being an artist." I've talked to psychologists who knew I was an artist, and some who didn't. Plus there were times of my life when I was not actively making art, so wouldn't have self-identified as such. I really don't make a conection between how I was treated and whether or not I'm an artist.
I suppose that my point is that there could very well be biochemical causation in not just depression and other mood disorders but at the same time the same chemicals may influence our outlook in an artistic sense as well. Stranger things could happen.
I don't argue that all artists are mentally off-kilter in some way - at least in a negative sense. But I do think it's worth taking a deeper look at how our chemistry may or may not play a part in our creativity and / or our choice of vocation.
Lots to think about, don't you agree?

Stephen, I knew I could count on you for a friendly bit of PR. Thanks!

Kathryn, good point. Really I dislike labels and mentally ill is one that is particuly unpleasant since it seems to cover everything from a short case of situational depression to psychopathic axe murderers.
I can't bring myself to believe that everyone who ever took an art class with me - not to mention FROM me - is or was mentally ill. The whole issue becomes a slippery slope somewhere along the way.

Laurie that is an excellent point - and an opportunity for somebody to do some research. I do know at least a couple of people who do not treat their depression simply because they do not want this to show up on their medical records and get back to an employer or a potential employer.

Susan - You are featured! Here is my point (and I think yours too): It is not that all creative people are mentally ill, or the only way to creativity is through mental illness. The point is more that within those that have a mental illness, there does seem a high level of creativity. Therefore, when you survey in the arts, you are bound to find a lot of people who have one form of mental illness or another. There are PLENTY of creative people who come across it naturally completely without mental illness - God bless them!

I think there are also factors to be considered that could have skewed the study a bit. Namely that people in the arts may be a bit more in tune with their emotions and therefore more open to admitting they have a mental illness. It is also less looked down upon in the arts - often it is even considered a plus to a point.

In my article, Mental Illness and Creativity – What's Up With That? , Ted Turner is listed amongst a group of famous bipolar people. He is a good example of someone in the business world who has mental illness and has succeeded - but I also think he is very creative. Perhaps not in the art sense, but he has proven himself a creative genius in the media industry. Does it have anything to do with his mental illness? Who knows?

I am bipolar and really don't consider myself artistic in any sense at all. I took a painting class in college one time and did really bad compared to the others. I was also the only insane one in the bunch. I don't consider myself a good writer either. Just do it for release and fun.

There are some serious questions we need to ask about the research that's being done on this topic. If you don't ask the right questions you can't get the correct answers, and a large part of the problem here is the criteria being used -- which we're often not even told. Examples are

(1) How is creativity being defined? An interesting study would be to examine people who are NOT creative, if it's possible to find any. Isn't the cook inspired to create a new version of apple pie, or the homemaker decorating her house, exercising creativity? Is some special definition of "artistic creativity" what's being discussed, and if so, how would one define this? Is scientific creativity or business creativity or political creativity the same thing as "artistic creativity?" If not, how do they differ?

(2) What's art? There are so many fields of art, each operating on so many levels, that a simplistic definition of "art" for the purpose of setting up an experiment may be extremely misleading. Are all the people working in all the arts, from painting to poetry to music to theater, for example, inclined to suffer depression? Could the psychological requirements for becoming a performing artist be different from those for becoming a "creative" artist? Different for amateurs and for professionals?

(3) Who's an artist/ It's especially important to define this clearly and include the definition being used when reporting one's research. Who's being included in the study? Artists earning at least $50,000 a year through their work? Professionals regardless of their level of financial success? Art students who want to become artists? Trained artists or self-defined artists? In which field? In how many fields? What role does the aesthetic quality of the art of the participants play in their selection? Any role? None? Who decides?

(4) How is depression being defined for the purpose of the study? There are several different kinds of depression.

(5) How many people are included in the study -- and what are the controls being used? Scientific experiments have very definite requirements, especially sample size and the use of a system of controls. If there's too small a sample, for example, statistical analysis isn't very accurate.

Unless these questions are clearly asked and answered by a particular study, we can't take it for granted that the study has much objective value. It's important to take a hard look at the criteria used and the design of experiments in any field of science.

This is one thought I have had on the matter, none of it ever researched - just an opinion. On the matter of artists and depression, I have often thought that part of it must be related to the creation of Art. Unlike many other professions, creating Art is a deep and emotional process. We are forced to continuely look into our souls and view the hidden emotions that appear in our works. Then we are asked to show this all to the world - with no protection from viewpoints (good and bad). One is constantly letting the strangers view things about themselves, things that artist may not quite understand themselves. This constant introspection, I think, is always working, in the subconscience, and make a person much more aware of their emotions. Some people are ready for this, others have not quite got there yet.

I don't think the average person really takes a hard look at who they are, and what they really believe on that constant a basis, and is then asked to exhibit and defend them to people they have never met. These new thoughts and questions coming at sucha regular basis can be jarring, and the brain needs time to sort things out.

Again, I have never researched any of this, but it seems like the above could have a hand (big or small) in why so many artists (or creative folk) have depression symptoms.

I just wanted to share something from when I was in art school. It was a small, private school so practically everyone knew each other. That was how I found out that the majority of us were born in May, are left-handed and have been sexually abused. Try and figure that one out!

Small schools are like that. The one I went to had similar stories of groups of people with similar pasts as each other (not birth month, handness and abuse - each group was different) We always used to try to figure out "what brought us to this school?" Never could answer that.

Lisa & Jim - How fascinating!

I guess this odd clustering factor may explain how my husband and I (Bill and Susan) had dear friends for many years who were also a couple named Bill and Susan.

Ooooh, let's get a grant and research it! Now that's what I call fun.

And do you think it explain how in our family of six we have 3 clusters wherein lie a number of holidays?

Saggitarius: Halloween and 2 birthdays - Oct 31 & Nov 6

Aquarius: Valentines day and 2 birthdays- Frbruary 10

Virgo: Labor Day and 2 birthdays - September 1 and 11

I guess this is where the spooky music should start playing.

Thank you for an insightful article. I would be curious to see how many therapists and ministers have some sort of mental illness. I don't mean this sarcastically, and I don't mean ministers and therapists are any less capable because of mental illness. On the contrary, I think it helps in understanding others with mental illnesses. I ask this also because I am someone with bi-polar II who has been a writer (really, still am), and now studying to be a minister. And, I see a lot of therapists and ministers with various addictions.

Very interesting thought, Tanja. I had made the connection with the ministers of the "psychological" sort but although I too know a few spiritual ministers who fall into this category I did not put this together until now. Just another one of those curiosities begging for an answer. Thanks for the comment.

As a therapist with a mood disorder who is also an artist, I found all of the above very fascinating. I have often felt that there is a fine line between genius and insanity. My biggest concern is that the psychiatric profession is sometimes too eager to medicate the creativity right out of some people. It hurts my soul to see someone who loves to paint and write poetry turn into a "normal" person because they are over medicated. That is why so many manic-depressives (bipolars) refuse to stay on their meds. It is so much better for them creatively to feel the highs and lows. I know for myself, that some of my best poetry has come from a place of pain and sadness.

Thanks for reading and commenting, Linda. it sure sounds as if we ned a better way of helping people without changing who they are doesn't it?

Perhaps it's the price we pay for trawling the waters of the subconcious more than others....

Indeed, Karen. Introspective, sensitive, aware of nuances. We wouldn't be the same without these traits but they can also carry baggage.

Hi Susan, very interesting article with depth and clarity. I am addressing this comment not only to you but all readers, can we please narrow down the discussion to 'schizophrenia' instead of mental illnesses -the latter is as wide as 'human behavior'... and the former fascinates me no end, since I have found sufferers of the multiple personality disorder to be explosively creative. I have lived with several. I have stories to trade...
cheerz!

Very interesting and informative. Makes one sit and notice! Thanks for posting this, Susan.

Submitted as a quasi-corollary to your excellent article, it was SF author, Ray Bradbury, who said, "We have our arts so we won't die of truth."

I've been clinically depressed most of my life, and my brother and parents were as well. My father was a writer and philosopher. My brother is taking a hiatus from his job as a newspaper editor to write a novel. I've been in and out of publishing for four decades. All I can say is, "Praise the Lord, and pass the Prozac!"

Susan,

Ive always known that the majority of artsists and creative people are stigmatized with being mentally ill. Im bipolar and therefore I am...I also think that we are highly intellegent people who are categorized as "mentally ill" because the mainstrema just doesnt get how our minds work, how deep we can get and how far our creativity stretches. At times I feel blessed to be mentally ill, but when im severley depresed well you know the rest...My creativity is a gift, as well as all the other stigmatized writers of mental illness on gather, and the planet so let the public do their research as we already know what they have yet to discover.

Lauri

Salvador Dali is considered to have had schizophrenia. This diagnosis was made by Dr. Silvano Arieti in one of his books on schizophrenia. His paintings look very weird, but so do those of Picasso. Picasso was never diagnosed schizophrenic as far as I know. Virginia Woolf, a famous writer, committed suicide, as did Van Gogh. Ernest Hemingway also committed suicide. My feeling is that suicide is a mistake in depression because I feel that a cure is in the works. This cure will be orthomolecular.

I have just as much reason as anyone to cling to the idea that mental illness and creativity go hand in hand. However, I don't think it is necessarily so. Here is a letter from the prolific and lifelong artist Robert Genn.

His website is The Painters' Keys.

Every so often some researcher will publish fresh info on the
mental or physical problems of creative folks. The general
implication of some of this stuff is that you have to be just a
wee bit sick in order to be creative. They often show that many
historic artists had something wrong with them. The latest
outbreak comes from clinical pathologist Dr. Paul Wolf of the
University of California. He cites that illnesses, rather than
being obstacles, can be the paths to genius. He cites the likes
of Einstein, Warhol, Newton, Cezanne, Goya, Michelangelo,
Turner and Berlioz. According to Wolf these folks suffered
varying degrees of depression, autism, myopia, anxiety, chronic
pain, gout, stroke and dementia.

Another recent outbreak has to do with sight. According to John
Morley of the St. Louis School of Medicine in Missouri, the
presence of cataracts leads to Impressionism. Citing Monet,
Renoir and Cassatt, he implies that eye problems helped them to
paint the way they did. Cezanne is mentioned for a diabetic
condition that caused the colour blindness that shows in his
work. Van Gogh's probable epilepsy spurred on his hallucinatory
imagery--the fuzz and swirls around the stars in "Starry
Night." Edvard Munch had "floaters," that also floated around
in his paintings. Michelangelo's manic depression, now reverse
engineered by the experts, affected the way he saw
things--according to Morley you can tell by the sad figures on
the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel.

Monday morning quarterbacking aside, what about the others who
pioneered Impressionism without benefit of cataracts? Gauguin,
Bazille, Sisley, Pissarro, Degas, Morisot, Seurat and Signac
didn't have cataracts that I know of. As a matter of fact, what
about many of my friends who don't appear to have anything
wrong with them at all, but still find it within themselves to
create magnificently and with originality? Actually, it's
possible that the clear-sighted individuals with no known
diseases may be the ones who are doing most of the good stuff.
Historically speaking, we artists have been through a hundred
years where "artist" has been aligned with "nut case." It
hasn't always been so. I, for one, am working to have this
current connection declared null and void. It's always struck
me that the artists who I admire are some of the healthiest
folks I know--physically, and yep, mentally. I could be wrong,
of course, and the thought of it makes me depressed.

Best regards,

Robert

PS: "Had better treatments been available to certain artists of
the past, they might not have found their inspiration." (Dr.
Paul Wolf)

Esoterica: At Oxford University, Ioan James has a book in
progress on Asperger's Syndrome, a form of autism. James argues
that the obsessive and repetitious behavior often associated
with autism has had a positive result for about twenty
successful creators he has studied. "Perseverance,
perfectionism, disregard for social conventions and the
opinions of others could be seen as a prerequisite for
creativity, and these are also behaviors associated with
Asperger's." I'm happy to report that virtues such as
perseverance, perfectionism, and disregard for social
convention can also be learned and are frequently self-taught.

I've often wondered about all of this myself. Thanks for publishing this.

I knew it was something about this . This is conformation .

What an interesting article and discussion! I've noticed that my most intelligent and creative friends have been bi-polar but have also known others with different types of mental illnesses that have been creative as well (just not as many).

I've also wondered if the chemical imbalances in those with mood disorders might also make them more prone to a creative bent. (I'm a writer who has major depression.)

My doctors have tagged me with so many disorders that now I just think of my mental illness as a "Thinking disorder"..Am I creative? lol My children and grandchildren say that I am eccentric. Does that count?? I found for me that I had to pack a lot of humor about my illness with me. I know that I was creative in covering it up for so many years. I mimicked and posed accordingly through out my life making sure, as best I could, to act and speak "NORMAL". Normal behavior, normal cloths..lol. thank God for the 60's and 70's. Those years opened doors for alot of us that struggled with one form or another of a chemical imbalance..Drugs that helped us fix our moods...and total freedom to be. For a while..
I personally believe that most of the United States population has some form of mental illness.
As for myself I have extreme mood swings...I hear voices and occasionally I have visits from angels....All which has been a great avenue for writing.lol I am a happy nut.
When I took my medication as prescribed all of my creativity went into hibernation. The side effects are so wicked with most of the psychotropic drugs they have out. I have a case manager who helps me navigate through this world with as much grace and dignity as possible. My creativity can be borderline wacky at times. Nonetheless I am creating.
I have met a lot of sick people during my stints in State Mental Hospitals. And the thing that jumped out at me at every meeting of my mentally ill comrades was.....we didnt have the right stuff to buffer. For what ever reason we/I couldn't ward off the vibes around us. Like a sponge I soak up all the energy that is around me. And trust me, it's not always good energy.Maybe that could be some of the reason that the creative abundance the mentally ill have, no matter how slight, is a way out. A way to cope with that which we can not deal with or understand. Whew..
I am new on Gather, and I think I am in the right group for this reply. I did notice a lot of writers get pretty ticked off if one doesnt stay within the certain groups arena. So..I apologize if I goofed and I am in the wrong place.
And again...Thanks Susan. So informed and put together quiet well.

How about the famous Howard Hughes in the film "The Aviator", that man had severe OCD tendencies, but was rich beyond belief. What he made from planet to money was incredible, but he still suffered from a mental illness. Do you call that creative? I do

Very well written and informative. I have had a great desire to help and comfort people with my writing since I was about seven years old. Does that make me mentally ill? Maybe. Probably, although I am not officially diagnosed with anything. I am almost always nervous (yesterday, I found myself shaking most of the day for no particular reason). I often get that drained "just can't get into this" feeling about work, even when I more or less "like" my job. There is still a huge stigma with mental illness, that it all about violence and hallucinations. Psychosis. I have seen people who are diagnosed get drained of who they are from medications, and it frightens me more than the disorders sometimes. My writing has been central to how I define myself for thirty years, I don't want to give that up

Interesting topic. I've heard of this before, but never looked any farther into it. Thanks!

You know, I have thought about this for years. I worked as a counselor for the homeless mentally ill/drug addicted adults. I found that many Schizophrenics were extremely creative in drawing, and painting. I also found that most of them were very. very intelligent. It is almost as though the brain was taking in so much information, so quickly it just "broke."

I think doctors like to drug people up. I worked with people who were diagnosed because of what they said. (I did not witness any unusual behavior).

Personally, I think creative people are just plain...misunderstood. I am also of the opinion that other people who can not perform in the Arts, are possibly jealous. Hence, "oh, he can paint because he is crazy." It makes them feel better about themselves.

I can not paint. I can not draw. I write. Writing for me is part of who I am. Does that make me crazy? I don't know. I get anxious, and I get depressed. Good subject!!!!

Uh Oh I think I may be in trouble--very creative and more than a little on the crazy side too--IQ at last testing [I am in a study group for creativity and IQ] 147 and rising. Not always a good thing. Thanks for the article--nice job.

Just a note for those who have mental inbalances, etc--remember I'll bet the creativity is there, it may be the support, self-confidence and positive encouragement that is missing--Just my thoughts. dorry

I'm certainly coming to this discussion late but...yes.....I have found that many writers do suffer from mental illness and write about it. Willam Styron wrote a memoir about this and Ernest Hemingway was notorious for depression.

One factor that I can't help wondering about: there is this myth that drinking and creativity go together and alcohol is a depressant. So where does that factor in?

Using the new 'search' Gather tool, I found this article after I input 'artists' but found it very interesting and certainly would be proven by my family of musicians and artists. Bi-polar and anxiety issues run rampant but I always chalked it up to (1) people who are a little different or 'moodier' spend more time alone and therefore have a more active muse, and (2) we feel things more intensely, our families can only handle so much, so we find outlets in art and music and (3) there isn't a big divide between creativity/pushing the envelope and just pushing the envelope.

Great piece!

Considering I am a work from home, starving artist... I can relate to this. I'm a pretty bubbly person in general, but working from home has it's downsides of lacking socialization... and, lack of sales when needed, wondering how we'll pay the next set of bills. But it comes with it's benefits too. I live on less, my life is simple, and I make my own schedule. For me, the benefits outweigh the downsides... but it can surely cause stress and mood disorders. mark me on the list for that. lol.
;)