Because of the way Gather is designed, and because of the way the series, Losing Your Religion, follows from post to post, there is sometimes an abrupt halt to a conversation or to several conversations, depending on what has started close to the end of the thread when it becomes too long. More times than not, a new topic is started in the next linked episode, and sometimes people do refer back to the last post and continue the previous conversations, but I thought that the current running post, unlike some others, did have a specific and very unrelated topic in mind, and I didn’t wish to muddy the waters with a continuation there. Although I certainly did not feel the necessity to ask whether or not the hosts of the series would mind that I do this, I also hope that they understand and are not bothered by my intent, and that is to make some ridiculous notions “perfectly clear,” if you can excuse the ‘Nixonian’ expression and refrain from making other nonsensical inferences.
The idea that Christians who comment on LYR are planning some kind of takeover is so preposterous that it doesn’t even really warrant a response, if for no other reason than the extraordinary ingenuity such an endeavor would require, a lacking quality of Christians, in general, of course. I’m still not quite sure how that notion became part of a belief system for some, but I was told that it was derived from “an accumulation of comments” and “an influx of people defending Christianity and the Book, and making accusation(s) toward the moderator.” (there are two moderators, so I don’t know whether or not that was just a typo that accidentally left off a plural as in the case with accusation which I felt at liberty to assume there was and added an s.) In any event, the only tangible part of that reasoning to which I can respond would be the accusatory part, and only because I said something myself in the post that might be inferred as an accusation, but mine was an accusation without placing blame, so I don’t particularly like the choice of words. The rest of that reasoning would have to be backed up with examples; otherwise, it’s just a personal perception. I will agree that people "defend Christianity and the Book" on LYR, but how that might constitute what someone perceives as a takeover is more than rather wild reasoning.
I had pointed out that one of the hosts of the series may be biased in her attempts to moderate, but that it probably is unintentional because it is inherent in someone who has started such a Losing Your Religion series to be more biased in conflict resolution that includes people with a structured belief system as a religion. The other moderator is an Atheist so his take may also be inherently, though unintentionally, biased. It has absolutely nothing to do with what I think of either of them personally, though that was also indicated. I suppose this is the sort of the same kind of inference people make when I point out the reasons I don’t like Barack Obama as a President, but I’d be the first to want to socialize with the guy, if given such an opportunity, because I find him to be a fun, likeable, and charming personality. As I’ve said, people read into things what they wish, whether true or not, and that’s more their problem than mine, but I wanted to make it clear that I like both of the moderators.
In an attempt to help rectify that conflict within the series, specifically because the conflicts arise most often between the Christian and non-Christian factions, I suggested that a Christian who is well liked and respected by just about everyone, both Christian and non-Christian alike, and is very intelligent and wise (despite his Christianity) might be a consideration to add as a moderator. This was not an attempt at a takeover. It was merely a suggestion that I think would work well. I have no idea whether or not the person I suggested would even be willing to do such a thing.
The rebuttals to this idea were mostly met with the reasoning that there are other religions that also may be at conflict with the non-religious faction. If Muslims or Jews or any other religion were at conflict, the idea of having a Christian moderator does not in any way preclude adding a Muslim or Jewish moderator down the line, if needed. Currently, the conflicts arise between the Christian and non-Christian commentators, and I think that having a Christian moderator added just lends a fairer and more balanced (oops, too Fox-like for you, probably, and will immediately transform me into a right wing neo-con) approach to conflict resolution. I’m also not implying that he is not also going to be unintentionally and inherently biased, but I think that having two non-Christians and a Christian moderating a group where the conflicts mostly arise between Christians and non-Christians can be helpful in balancing the scale.
The other rebuttal is that this series is really not supposed to be for people with any religion, so having a Christian moderator is not necessary. I also made another suggestion. That suggestion was to make the series a private group that could be accessed only by invitation agreed upon by the core of current members at any given time. That suggestion was met with the idea of a creation of a clique. Someone even took it to the extreme that it might preclude members of race, gender, or ethnicity. That’s only if you make it that way, of course. The obvious appearance of the group as a clique by making it a private group is not one that the group wishes to be known for. Can’t say that I blame them because it’s not an attractive perception. However, “an influx of people defending Christianity and the Book” is frowned upon to the point of making such defense into a takeover of the series! That’s quite an interesting contradiction. As long as you don’t post the unwelcome sign, it’s not a clique, and it’s okay to make them know they are unwelcome unless they paint their faces with the same color as the accepted crowd upon entering.


Comments: 100
That does give one a "thought pause". hmmmm
My comment was only meant to say that I(or someone like me) would be more depressed to realize I'd misplaced my beer and couldn't find it than to discover that what I believed in wasn't there... a morbid joke, but a joke, nonetheless... I HAVE over-indulged AND vomited, and have forgotten more than I ever could have imagined. lol
If I could change one thing, it would be the 'beer' part....... I hate, NO, loathe entirely, beer..... I would change it to 'vodka'.... losing my vodka would be worse than losing my religion.
BTW, and this is not a disclaimer, just an opinion.... I have to say how much I admire your thoroughness and desire to be fair in what you state. Even though I do not agree completely with you, I DO agree that your intent is from a good place, and is meant to keep everyone honest and balanced, and I do appreciate it.
Forgive me for my not-so-serious-and-possibly-inappropriate comment about alcohol... but there is just enough truth in my comment to be funny to me, even if nobody else got it.:)
Ferosh
It wasn't that I didn't get it so much, as I can be a bit of a one-upper at times.
Someone else, however, had no compunction, whatsoever, to start up some trouble by taking a line of what someone said on the previous thread, out of context, no less, making an issue of it while that person is currently engaged in affable discussion on the current thread. That's uncalled for, and deserves whatever it gets if the moderators do not immediately intervene and ask what the reason for such a comment might be about what someone said so long after it was stated, and made to look like it meant something entirely different from what it did mean in the context in which it was originally presented.
It is indeed unfortunate the way the conversation gets cut off which each new thread. As a moderator I have enough trouble handling one open thread at a time, which is why we close the old ones!
We created the group partly so members could, like you, continue conversations in separate posts if they wish.
I do hope you will take specific notice to the comment I left above at 4:02PM. The current discussion seemed to be going along very nicely. I don't see any reason for what seems to be a personal attack on someone out of the blue, while that person is currently engaged in civil discourse on a new thread and a new discussion. This is what I referred to in one of my comments to you about nipping things in the bud. You have a very difficult position, and I respect that, but the source of contention has often been overlooked by the time it's out of hand.
I don't think I remember any comment by anyone, anywhere on this whole site, where I can say I have been more in total agreement with every word.
I’m a human man
But you cannot hear my voice
Only echoes of the echoes
Of your long forgotten choice
You called the darkness holy
And crowned the silence king
But nothing is revealed
When you bow before this thing
My work, as always, is marvelous ; )
Well, I gave my take on that from my first and only comment related to the text.
Personally. I don't see the moderation as a problem...except one that has been created by the participants of the discussions....believers and non believers alike. The problem has been certain hostile acts and personal attacks...sarcastic rhetoric and meaningless misdirection of the debates. The high jacking has been one of inertia of the conversations by the use of these techniques....
Thanks for stopping by.
But I also warned them that they needed an open mind to participate ... I guess that's all it took, none seem to have showed up yet.
Most of the non-Christians on that thread have never participated in LYR before either, so why would you assume Christians there would want to? Perhaps that is the reason they didn't take you upon your invitation, and not because of the reason you falsely ascribe just because they didn't. Even sarcasm, if that is what it was, needs some basis in truth.
I could. hmmm, maybe I'm just contrary enough to. . . naah, I lost that religion.
It seems someone posted a very wordy ramble for no apparent reason, then. This was the nugget that seemed to me to be repeatedly referred back to with reference to rebuttal and re-rebuttal. It sure sounds to me as if someone wanted the christian viewpoint represented by a co-moderator.
"I suggested that a Christian who is well liked and respected by just about everyone, both Christian and non-Christian alike, and is very intelligent and wise (despite his Christianity) might be a consideration to add as a moderator."
But thanks for your patience in explaining to a newbie like me how you managed to spend six paragraphs on absolutely nothing.
The additional moderator suggestion was for fairness and balance in assessing comments that some perceive as attacks, as I clearly stated; not for anyone’s comfort. That you see the issue as one of comfort is certainly indicative of your lack of understanding, and so I can only repeat my last comment to you.
So, if you're comfortable with the "ridiculous notions", "the choice of words" that you "don’t particularly like", the "wild reasoning", the "biased" "moderators", the "conflict", the probability of being transformed "into a right wing neo-con", the need for "fairness", the "contradiction", the "appearance" of a "clique", the perceived "attacks", and being "accused", rebutted and "unwelcome", then I guess we're through here.
So if, in my "lack of understanding", I mistook all this for lack of comfort, then "I can only repeat" my question? Why on earth did it take six paragraphs to tell how not uncomfortable you are? And two more to tell me I suffer from a "lack of understanding" because you "never used the word, comfort, any form of it, or any synonym for it to describe the problem, the crux of which is fairness"?
"Who said they did not feel comfortable? That people joined any group to rankle that the moderators did not represent the Christian viewpoint is not at all what is being discussed here in what you call a listserv, so either make a pertinent point or consider your comments ignored on the basis that they're nothing but gibberish designed to be argumentative on a false pretense."
(I would have supported your nomination, had I thought the nominee had any interest in such an assignment.)
Sure, I thought he would have made a great moderator to assist with conflict resolution regarding as to what is and isn't an attack and the reasons these situations present themelves, though I also doubted he would wish to put himself in such a position even if he had the time.
Neither of the suggestions I made did I think were workable solutions that had merit without modification as they were presented, but I presented them more as food for thought and futher discussion about ideas that coud be expanded upon from those suggestions because a point was that people think that the conflicts can be resolved without implementing new ideas, and they cannot. Of course, people are more interested in placing blame than in anything else. To some degree, I think that they thrive on the conflict. Let's place blame and point out all the faults of someone else because it makes me look so much better.
This is about the moderation of the series. If you want to have a moderated series, you need to moderate, and you need to moderate fairly. You don't wait until the discussion has escalated and then choose the current comment or some person who doesn't agree with the status quo as the one you want to target as being the cause of the conflict.
Dave's understanding in his comment above about what I said in my comment about the moderator's unfair intervention in that specific example is the main point of the whole matter. Thank you for your input, Aniko.
Makes sense to me! What is their problem in understanding such a simple concept?
Why do you want a Christian co-moderator named in a group that clearly states it is for those who are "spiritual but not religious"?
I stated in the post, "I had pointed out that one of the hosts of the series may be biased in her attempts to moderate, but that it probably is unintentional because it is inherent in someone who has started such a Losing Your Religion series to be more biased in conflict resolution that includes people with a structured belief system as a religion. The other moderator is an Atheist so his take may also be inherently, though unintentionally, biased...In an attempt to help rectify that conflict within the series, specifically because the conflicts arise most often between the Christian and non-Christian factions, I suggested that a Christian who is well liked and respected by just about everyone, both Christian and non-Christian alike, and is very intelligent and wise (despite his Christianity) might be a consideration to add as a moderator...It was merely a suggestion that I think would work well. I have no idea whether or not the person I suggested would even be willing to do such a thing...Currently, the conflicts arise between the Christian and non-Christian commentators, and I think that having a Christian moderator added just lends a fairer and more balanced approach to conflict resolution."
Do you still have a question?
This is a Gather forum for discussing religion and spirituality. Sharing our spiritual beliefs is one small step towards building a better world.
This ongoing discussion began in June, 2008 with the publication of the Losing Your Religion Series.
The discussion rules are the same as on earlier posts:
1. Share your spiritual and religious beliefs in this moderated atmosphere, but respect the beliefs of other participants.
etc.
I joked several times that as an atheist, I clearly didn't belong, and I was always assured that was not the case. It has also been said several times that Christians are welcome. That everyone is welcome...
Consider this:
I own a Rottweiler. Pretend we go to a park that is designated to be a park where Rotties can play together. Although the park was created for recreation for Rotties, it does not ban other dogs. I am a moderator at the park along with my friend who owns an Irish Wolfhound should any of the dogs get into a fray. Now because other breeds are not banned, owners of smaller dogs are also taking their breeds to the park, and there have been fights between Rotties and some smaller German Shepards recently. My friend and I are siding with the Rotties, and maybe we're a bit biased because we own the larger dogs, so it is suggested that one of the owners of the German Shepard also be designated to be a moderator when these dog fights occur so that the German Shepards will not be wrongfully accused of always starting the fights, and the cause of the fights might be more fairly judged.
Why I disagree:
It doesn't make sense to me to make an owner of a German Shepherd a moderator of the park. The park was created with Rotties in mind, and while they welcomed other dogs, it is still the Rottie Dog Park. If I found that the Rottie owners were not receptive to my point that their dogs were starting all of the fights, when I believed otherwise, I would find another dog park.
I also do not feel that having a German Shepherd owner as a moderator will decrease the number of "HEY! YOUR dog started that fight!", because (people being people) no one wants to admit that their precious fluffykins is responsible for Bad Things. Best case, it simply sets up a situation in which the moderators-- rather than being of one mind-- will now be growling at each other over which of their pets is responsible.
Now, you may not agree, but I would like to know why because this is the point that is probably the one that is the basis of the disagreement.
"The park was created with Rotties in mind, and while they welcomed other dogs, it is still the Rottie Dog Park."
Although the park was created with Rotties in mind, the fact that other dogs are still welcome to enter makes it a park for all dogs, and not just for Rotties. If, and only if, the park that was created for Rotties in mind also had a rule that smaller breeds could not enter the park, then there would be no need for any further considerations. As long as the park remains open to accepting the smaller breeds, then any and all disputes arising from the German Shepards and Rotties not getting along need to be judged fairly.
Everyone on Gather has the right to enter into any discussion on any post unless that post is restricted by a friends only or private group designation. All the people who participate have the same rights. When there is a moderator, and only one side is represented in disputes, the moderation is biased and unfair unless there is a moderator that also represents the rights of the faction that is involved in the contention. That is why I suggested to make LYR a private group if they do not wish to be fair in the moderation. In fact, if Christians were not allowed, we would not be having this discussion at all.
So far as the group is concerned, it's a matter of respect for me. Gather is a public forum, yes. However, groups and discussions are created by members with certain goals. If those members wish to change the rules, they're within their rights to do so and as a matter of respect for our fellow Gatherites, we should abide by that. A perceived bias or lack of respect from the other side doesn't change that fact that -we- should behave to our highest standards. If they don't wish to take their discussions to a private group, they don't have to.
Which means that it's also true that those wish to partake in a public discussion may absolutely do so. However, to do so against the wishes of the moderators is something I see as disrespectful and borders on trolling.
This is quickly edging into territory-- the behaviour of the parties involved-- that makes me personally uncomfortable. I understand there is history between everyone here, and I am viewing it with an outsiders' eyes. But with all due respect, I have to say that the behaviour I am seeing from certain members of the Christian camp strikes me as unnecessarily aggressive and even designed simply to get a rise out of others. I apologize if that offends you, but there it is. It does not make me wish to continue discussing certain matters with certain people. :/
"Which means that it's also true that those wish to partake in a public discussion may absolutely do so. However, to do so against the wishes of the moderators is something I see as disrespectful and borders on trolling."
How do you not see contradiction in that statement? Either you are accepting of all people who wish to participate, or you aren't. What is disrespectful about participating in a forum that is open to all if you are a member of the larger forum from which the participants are drawn, namely Gather? If it is against the wishes of the owner of the post to have certain people restricted then they need to use the technical tools ascribed and available for such discrimination. That is why they are there, but you can't change the rules in the middle of the game to suit you. That's just plain wrong.
Although this might seem off the beaten path, that is sort of what you did with Godwin's rule when John used Hitler as an example for his point. You took a theory that has only basis in fact to show that the longer an argument continues, the more chance the reference to Hitler and the Nazi regime to change that theory into something it isn't at all; that the reference to Hitler makes the argument null and void.
They are two entirely different concepts, and the way you see this issue is from an entirely different perspective than from the facts that make the perspective even valid to consider.
"This is quickly edging into territory-- the behaviour of the parties involved-- that makes me personally uncomfortable."
This is not about comfort, but if it is personally uncomfortable for you, then you have every right not to participate.
"But with all due respect, I have to say that the behaviour I am seeing from certain members of the Christian camp strikes me as unnecessarily aggressive and even designed simply to get a rise out of others."
That is even more reason to have a moderator that can also see the reason for comments that you perceive as unnecessarily aggressive. Perhaps it is only your perception, and if you were able to see it from a perspective that could be explained better by someone who understands how those comments came to be, there may be less bickering and more understanding.
I think, in this case, what you see as fact and what I see as fact are two different things. Which actually makes them less fact and more belief. But that's fine, really.
Guided discussions will always have moderators, those who get the ball rolling and those who use their pre-conceived goals to keep the train on the tracks. They are also allowed to change things, because it's their concept. You are well within your rights to believer that their guidance or any changes made to the format are incorrect, even plain out wrong. What matters, I think, is how you respond to that. I do not agree with how some people are responding to that. I don't feel that what I said was a contradiction but I accept that you don't agree with me.
Well, that's a very long shot here because the posts' topics, even when Christians are not commenting, are often not followed, and drift off into chat room sessions, so don't tell me that guiding the discussion is the reason for moderation or the way it is most often used.
As far as the Godwin rule, you used it right after Kris made her comment about reference to Hitler blowing the argument, so if you weren't trying to make her point, there was no reason for the citation. You also went on to answer my question as to whether reference to bin laden would apply, and also said it would when it does not, at all, so don't go where you are in direct negation of the comments you made and try to make them something that you wished they meant, but didn't. Your own words on that thread belie what you say now.
I posted the cite because John's comment did fit the definition of the phrase. And when I answered your question, I was sharing how I felt and what I believe. Polarizing examples do disrupt a discussion. Again, I was and am trying to discuss in good faith.
As I said above, I do believe this is a case where we'll have to agree to disagree. I see your side of the argument, I understand where you're coming from. I just don't agree with it.
You can disagree, but the point is that contention will continue unless they choose to use the technical options that are available, and only then can the rules change. The same people are going to continue to have arguments that make you feel uncomfortable unless a new venue is put into place, and until that is done, I will continue to contend that the very people complaining the most are the ones who are thriving on the contention because it makes them look better. If not, they would try anything they could if they really wanted peace and love and understanding.
Well, you could have done that without the citation that was FACT. When people cite quotes and those quotes clearly define something, an opinion that negates the actual facts is a silly thing to offer unless you want to look silly. :)
Once again, I state that you do not need to agree with me. Nor I with you. Take care, Sue.
You hit on the very point I was trying to make the other night about whose 'park' it is.... and I agree that it seems unfair to change rules, however, I respect that decision of the moderator, or the creator of the post.... you stated much better than I did about it not mattering WHO was moderator, a person of a differing view would always feel pitted against.... a 'if the shoe was on the other foot' type scenario.
Sue,
What if nobody was a moderator? I'm being serious. Just make the post and let whoever wants to comment do so. Of course, then no one would be protected from the abuse that cycles back around eventually once tempers flare, but it would be interesting to see which way the pendulum would swing if there were no fulcrum.
'to see which way the seesaw would tip if the fulcrum kept moving.'
It's a different venue altogether then. The point is fairness in moderation, and if there is no moderation at all, that's no longer a concern, is it? According to a comment he made on my other post, it seems that Jerry actually wanted a non-moderated post, and made that suggestion to them.
As far as I'm concerned, that would be just fine too, and I do not think it is a bad idea at all, but that's just my opinion, and it may not work for that series because I see that a lot of people seem to feel a degree of comfort in commenting there because it is moderated. To me, the idea of comfort that people keep bringing up in relation to this issue just doesn't have any meaning whatsoever but, apparently, there are a lot of people who equate fairness with comfort. Fairness can be comfortable but it can also be very uncomfortable.
If there were no moderation, what do I think? Well, Corrina made a statement, and maybe more than one on LYR recently, to the effect that she hasn't commented there because she doesn'r feel comfortable. with the dissension. That leads me to believe that if the site were not moderated at all, Corrina, and the very many people like her who feel the same way, would also not comment there at all. This is why I stated above that this idea would probably not work for this series.
As a whole, I see this 'faction' that is more easily intimidated as being the core of that series' 'demographic,' if you will. The people who would generally fit that description are those who do comment because the series is moderated, tend to look at the forum as one that would have the same rules as those in a real life setting, and tend to be more emotional and personally sensitive, though not necessarily more sensitive in the broader term. That is about the best I can do to answer you, Ferosh.
I have the same issues as you do about having a non-moderated post.... I wouldn't mind it at all, but I am aware that people like Corrina wouldn't contribute, so what would it really accomplish?
I was not aware that Jerry mentioned non-moderation before, thank you for pointing that out.
Thank you for taking the time to respond,
Ferosh
I'm having some azhika now, adjeeka? Are you familiar? It's great with this white flour, French bread and my carcinogenic pork ribs from my newly acquired charcoal grill.
Hey, I had a proiphecy to fulfill . . ; )
I did honestly think that you didn't realize John was referring to the group this time, and not the initial "request" to not comment on the thread. No other implications or assumptions were involved, and believe me, it hasn't escaped me that there isn't a lot that escapes you.
(I'm definitely not the culprit--I don't rate anything unless I think a post has been unfairly "downrated", in which case I'll leave a 10. Otherwise I don't pay attention.)
(Why did you ask me, by the way?)
To be honest, I didn't think you had made the mistake at all. I thought you were just quoting politely without a [sic] from someone else's words.
Hungary was in "Eastern Europe" in the geopolitical division that existed between 1945 and 1989 (approximately). Outside of that era, though, it's more appropriately referred to as "Central Europe" (or East-Central Europe, if we want to precise), and the reason is exactly the historical/cultural situation that my ignorance of adjika illustrates. Our "orientation", throughout our history, was toward the other countries in the Central European region (chief among them, of course, Germany and Austria), and not toward the east. (An important reason for this, of course, has been the Catholic+Protestant vs. Orthodox dividing line: Hungary is to the west of it.)
You weren't wrong, of course--it's just not that "Eastern Europe"--that one's a different cultural area.
(Damn, I thought I was vague enough and that little thing would escape you.)
FYI, I removed my own group membership in LYR a couple of weeks ago.