A comment by Rob Appell on the article "What's Happening TODAY on Gather! Monday, September 24th, 2007"...
http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.jsp?articleId=281474977126157
claims that the Gather Romance Contest will not accept submissions of Gay Romance stories.
WTF!!!
I always thought Gather was a totally inclusive community.
Was I wrong?
Is this part of the reason that Gather has a problem hanging on to some of it's most active Gatherers?
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Addendum: October 2, 2007 - People have the right to sponsor whatever kind of contest they want (Gather included). It is my opinion that a lot of this hub-bub over the exclusion of Gay Romance stories from the Gather "Romance" contest could have been avoided, or at least somewhat mitigated, if the contest had been labeled "Traditional Romance" instead of just "Romance."
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Comments: 83
The entry requirements were defined by Simon & Schuster, and not by Gather, Inc.
As Simon & Schuster is the sponsor for the competition, and the resultant publishing contract, it is well within their rights to define the type of book they wish to publish.
However, there is another contest on Gather that is open to everyone...
I am not defending Gather, but pointing out that the sponsor for the competition had dictated the entry requirements, and not Gather, Inc. (which are identified in the contest rules). Gather is perhaps culpable in accepting to host the competition despite these requirements. However, the real test for prejudice is whether Gather would also host a gay-romance contest, which I believe they would be happy to do.
It's been awhile since I felt offended by some decision Gather made for a monetary reason.
I am totally with Mona's take on this; if a publisher offered a contest where religion or race related aspects of a story would disqualify it, would Gather sign on?
Would Gather host a contest sponsored by White Supremacists or Al Quaeda if the money was good enough?
The real fight isnt with either of those 2 but the general public that associated gay with queer.
Thanks you for relieving some of my anger and angst.
If you're right, then Gather should get right on it. I'm sure there are plenty of Gay oriented publishers that would be eager to step-up and sponsor such a contest.
Even so, it smacks of exclusiveness and promotes a segregating of differing views instead of a "we are all equal" attitude.
uh yeah, you are defending them, kevin. as you said, gather accepted these terms ("perhaps"? no. they "are" culpable.). there should not be gay or straight romance contests, just romance contests. segregation is not an appropriate solution.
A$ for "Would Gather ho$t a conte$t $pon$ored by White $upremaci$t$ or Al Quaeda if the money wa$ good enough?". IMHO thi$ PARTICULAR $cenario $eems unlikely, but I'm $ure that Gather ha$ it$ price.
I'm not worried about points, it takes to long to accumulate anything really worth while. Thanks for the points (tenths of points actually).
WTF! Thank you for bringing this to the attention of old timers like me.
Keep Gather open and free for all!
Cheers,
Colonel Possum
I understand your point, and I am cognizant of the sensitivity surrounding this issue. However, I think that drawing some comparison to White Supremacy and Al Quaeda (which both promote hate and intolerance) is a bit of a stretch.
If it were my choice, I would have made the competition more inclusive. I believe the same could be said of Gather (in my opinion).
Their demographic research has led them to believe (whether or not it's correct) that they will sell more copies of a hetersexual love story than of any other category they may find through such a contest. Therefore, that's what they require.
Don't be mad at Simon and Schuster - certainly don't be mad at Gather. If you must be mad at someone, be mad at the people who will buy such a book but won't buy a gay love story.
I can tell you now - I'm one of those people. Does that mean I hate homosexuals? Of course not. However, being heterosexual, I can't really relate to a homosexual love story as well as I can relate to a heterosexual one, so if I'm going to read one, it will be the latter.
The majority of the population is heterosexual, therefore there are more people who will relate closely to the characters if they are heterosexual. If it wasn't a love story, it wouldn't be an issue. However, sexual orientation has a direct and very large impact on the story when it's a love story, therefor they are simply requesting what will appeal to the largest audience.
It's not prejudice, it's just marketing.
The following content is satirical i.e. it's a joke that tries to point out the absurdity of something.
In another thread on this topic last week I mentioned that I'm not fond of stories set in Ireland. Exceptions, stories set in the eighth, ninth, and tenth centuries that feature vikings and stories set in the sixth century or before. I imagine that most right thinking people share this view. If I were a publisher it would be incumbent on me to protect the sensibilities of my readers from the Celtic taint.
If the eventual winner is selected some voting process by gather members, what is the likelihood that a "gay love story" would emerge as the winner given the apparent demographics of the gather site?
I think the commenters above that suggest that this is a marketing decision by the sponsors are probably correct. But I think that an exclusion such as this is unnecessarily provocative.
Since you've pointed out that the majority of the population is heterosexual, I wonder if Gather will be considering banning gay people from the site in order to better accommodate the larger (and thus more profitable) demographic.
and thanks to the troops for getting involved in the discussion. i sounded the horn, and they came a runnin'.
Gather is run by individuals who if they desire can limit any contest. They can also accept sponsors who are targeting certain communities and not all. The choice to include or exclude any type of story is the person-company running the contest. Romantic is also in the eyes of the reader..and in this case..the judge.
Judge doesnt want gay stories submitted, it was made clear, and should be respected.
Gather is not doing anything wrong by providing the rules prior. Had they not disclosed this and then presented a bias against gay stories, start the torch...
Bill, Gather allows gays however, this contest did not BAN Gay submissions, only gay romantic stories. Bill, ever consider MAYBE, down the road they will have a Gay Romance Story contest? Who knows...who cares...
Bill, I am not against gays, but am against people making issue of private individuals making choices based on personal beliefs.
Judi-Freedom of Speech is here, but you can not force your speech on people who do not want to hear it. This is a simple contest. Gather is not the government,,,shhh The publisher is not the government either....
Mona- Gather wants to provide the website, it costs money. Sponsor wants a story of a certain type, they pay the prizes and costs, they get to pick what they want.
Mona- I support Gathers choice, and if they wanted a hate story between Jews and Arabs..so what.?
Mona- Might want to consider they are looking for an artist who can conform to specific type of stories they will want to publish and that they can sell. The publisher also has sponsors and they also set rules.
Problem I see is people following rules..
Liz- Consider, if you had to make the choice..allow the rules be set by sponsor and provide an excellent change to have one of your website writter have a contract, and also get support by the ones who choose to enter...or refuse it because some people will always complain about rules and entry requirements... Liz are you so self centered to remove the chance of others for what...because you think it was bias?
Liz- The company did not say a gay writter could not submit a story, THAT WOULD BE WRONG...the company only stated the type of story it was looking for..
When someone wants to see racism, sexism, genderism they will always see it.
Mona- My guess is they are not taking animal romance stories either...gay or not...
David Basora, in his September 14th article entitled
"I Want Reasons, Not Religious Rhetoric. I Also Want An Answer, Mr. Gerace"
reveals that Gather would not accept entries into the contest that involved same-sex (gay or lesbian) romance.
Why won't Gather accept an entry detailing a same-sex romance? According to Gather Guides, the terms of the "First Chapers" competition were dictated by contest sponsor Simon & Schuster:
Prior to the announcement of the recent First Chapters competition I was provided with an overview of the rules and entry instructions. . .It was made very clear to me that the entry requirements were wholly defined by Simon & Schuster, as they are the sponsors for the competition and the resultant publishing contract. This is reflected in the First Chapters documentation.
Therefore, the fight, if there is to be one, is with Simon & Schuster and not Gather.
Kevin (guides.gather.com) V., Sep 15, 2007, 8:49am EDT
we (the members) created this site, we support the sponsors, we attract more members, we should all be included in the contests.
and as i've been reminded by a fellow gatherer: straight people read gay fiction and gay people read straight fiction and bi's read both and most men wouldn't put down a juicy lesbian romance any day of the week... just because i'm not a man living in 18th century england doesn't mean i don't find it enjoyable to read about.
liz - you made the points so much better than i ever could have. i love you, too.
uh oh, hope no one thinks we're gay...
The contest is OPEN TO ALL, no one is keeping you from submitting a story that fits the listed criteria. The gendre, as defined, is what they are looking for. My political novel would not by allowed either.
You are correct, people read different romance novels. However, what you do not know is the final marketing and sponsors, and this isnt an anti gay wanting story. Just because you perfer open romance doesnt mean the publisher does and I think they know what sells more then you or myself.
THE POINT here is clear, its not about your rights, its about the profits the company hopes to make based on studies and past sales...
The POINT also is you are basicly being asked to do a job, since this leads to a contract. You are an employee..you are expected to write for them. You can be gay, black, or have 3 horns coming out..no problem...just author the novel under the terms of the agreement.
I am again for equal rights but this is about employment, business, and contracts..
K I S S ... I'll finish this scenario in my bunk. ;-)
Donald C. - By golly you are right. Gather can do whatever they want.
They could run a contest about the positive attributes of human slave trading if they were to choose.
Then the membership can respond as they choose.
When it comes right down to it, if I don't like the way Gather does things I can delete all my articles, images and comments, stop publishing and visiting here, and stop referring people to read the stuff I've posted here.
I could also stop telling everyone I meet how much I Love Gather and Gathering, and instead fill their heads and ears with only the negative things I see and what I think about it.
As can any number of the other members participating in Gather's social networking web site.
As for you, if you don't like what I have to say you don't have to read it or comment on it either; but here you are challenging my exercision of free speech by exercising your free speech.
I have not disrespected the rules of the contest. The only way to do that would be to submit a same-sex romance story to the contest; and I haven't done that.
Nor have I told TeamGather what it should do.
I merely sought to express my surprise, shock and displeasure over something they have done.
That's free speech, and that is being an active and involved member.
If Team Gather doesn't like what I have to say, or my activity on the site, they can ban me; as they've done to other people that have P'd them off.
Why don't you write them a letter and tell them they should get rid of free speechers like me and only keep free speechers like you.
I'm sure their membership (and their cash flow) would go through the roof as a result.
and we are not being asked to do a job, we are not employees of gather, and we do have power because if we all take a powder, gather dies. i've been here for about 2 years and this is one of the few things that has stuck in my craw enough to yell about. it also may be the one thing that makes me consider leaving. and i'll take people with me.
and what the hell would be the point of submitting something that would be tossed? if i want to waste my time, i can think of more enjoyable ways...
you know something, i hate the way this discussion has made me sound. i am not a bitch and i am not unreasonable. i just dislike injustice, especially when it comes from a source that i have become fond of.
mature, bill, real mature... ;^)
This is an employment chance based of your ability to write a selected gendre. I would think someone such as yourself would be happy at the chance.
Bill, your mixing free speech and capitalism here...which might be a great story.. but not with people yelling gather is anti gay.
I think the issue here is people want to submit gay romance and can not comprehend it doesnt fit the set story line they wish to publish.
Mona- Not sure, but if you research the issue mentioned here, it is basicly depends on the PUBLISHING FIRMS gendre, which some include gay relationship, some include it as a subgendre, and others DO NOT accept it in the gendre. Doesnt mean they do not published it, its how they define there published works.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romance_novel
The above link will even explain how the publishing firms and writers often disagree. There is no injustice here that I can see. Just people who want to bend the rules for thier personal benefit.
What kind of person would I be if I compromised my ideals for money?
Cash Richer, perhaps; Spirit Poor, definitely.
Jesus told me that I should choose Ideals over Money every time.
I have not yelled that Gather is Anti-Gay.
I have yelled and pointed at the fact that Gather is sponsoring a contest which made a "specific point" of disallowing Gay love stories.
As you have so eloquently pointed out, Gay folk have not been excluded from the contest, only their love stories are denied exposure.
Perhaps this would mean something to you if they had said;
"for this competition, romance as a genre is defined as follows: "A story, focusing on the relationship between a man and a woman under the age of fifty, which captures the joy of falling in love."
Would that have made you, or any Love story that might be dear to your heart, feel excluded, unwanted or dismissed as irrelevant?
Guess its people who tend to be uneducated about a subject that has the most complaining to do.
i also know that simon & schuster publish gay and lesbian fiction so this isn't about them being morally against it. this is what makes their rule so painfully nonsensical.
speaking of uneducated, what the hell is gendre? i know french the translation is "son-in-law". are you talking about publishers who only accept stories about sons-in-law?
what's funny is one of my favorite works of fiction is a love story about a woman and the narrator who is never identified by name or by gender. i wonder what they would do with something so dangerously ambiguous?
The real issue is that all members should be treated equally.
Jeesh. This site is getting more and more ridiculous.
I have a comment for Donald C. who said: "Guess its people who tend to be uneducated about a subject that has the most complaining to do."
Sir, I do not know how you determined who was the uneducated one but everyone has the right to their opinion. Because you don't agree with it makes you the ignorant one. I gained my education in the school of hard knocks. It does not make me uneducated just more open minded. Some day I hope you will be able to open you closed mind.
If this is true, I guess they missed the movie, Brokeback Mountain.
Tonia, what you feel is romance is valid. However, a Romance Novel does have some requirements beyond that of love. It has to do with how the company sells, distributes, and catagorizes the stories. If the company has Gay-Lesbain genre like this company does, they are simply providing classification not discrimination.
Eliz- It isnt deemed unacceptable, just not what a publisher desires for this contest.
I am all about gay rights, gay marriage, gays in the military, and gay authors, but also about freedom of choice, and if that choice is not to include a gay love story in a genre that is the choice of the company.
Chip- My statement was directed at people who assume hate and discrimination because they lack the education to and ability to tell the difference between a contest and what Romance Genre is and do not take the time to research it.
Mona- Glad your so educated and I tip my hat to your mother, but I would think someone with your education in English would comprehend genres and how the classification are more then just Love stories..they have basic requirements.
I see this as an employer asking a potential contracted author to write within certain guidelines. Can you do it? Thats the contest..period..
Views on being gay, gay love, gay rights are not even asked..
If you understood the market for Romance, in general, it would be clear that same sex romance is, at this time, too small to be of much interest to a large publishing house.
There are smaller houses and ebook publishers who serve this market. If you have a manuscript worth publishing stop whining about the rules of ONE contest and start sending queries. Queries are how most authors get published, not Gather contests.
Also best luck with your submission and future stories.
It is hard to read through this comment section as Gather Glitches have run the words into other boxes and top of each other. Infuriating, that.
So if anyone already said this, I apologize. But man... not every faction should be included in every single thing in life. The publisher was looking for something to hit a particular demographic in this contest. Period. As many things that are wrong with these type of contests, this perceived gay prejudice is not one of them.
wendy, no one is pointing a finger at or saying anything bad about those writers who entered. we are pissed at the rules. i wish you all the luck in the world...and at least you made donald happy.
and thanks magi for pointing out that anyone off american soil was excluded as well. this just keeps getting worse.
Mona-If you want to see discrimination in something, look hard enough, you will see what you want to see..just like the clouds..
It's a troublesome stipulation that could have been somewhat mitigated if the contest had been labeled and promoted as a contest for "Traditional Romance" stories. At least that way people could have had a forewarning.
I've never had any sense that Gather was anti-gay, and I did not say that anywhere in my article.
Although I think that is sad, there would seem to be nothing that can be done about it. I cannot and will not chastise Gather for something that seems to be beyond their ability to change.
If I'm wrong, somebody correct me.
Peace -
Simon & Schuster obviously weren't looking to fill a need in Gay/Lesbian manuscripts. Given the number of submissions they receive on a daily basis, I'm suprised they ran a Romance contest.
I was thinking of submitting a love true love story between a Moose and a Horse...but damn...the rules...
hey kids, how about we agree to disagree? (god, i hate that voice in my head.)
hey donald - when you write the moose & horse story, pass on the link...sounds interesting.
Everyone's Freedom Of Choice is key to this issue. No discrimination, either way. Perhaps that sounds cliche', but we'd all be in a better place if each of us practiced what we preached and respected the 'other guy' for doing it.
Bill, Gather is a site that has promoted itself as a world-wide community. Other USA based sites do NOT exclude non-USA residents from participating in competitions, as Gather expressly does in its competition rules.
Wendy, read the rules! The competition rules will tell you that you are wrong - non-USA residents are expressly excluded. Go and read the rules!
That you can post what want. However, if I were writing expressly for one type of contest or group, that would be different.
Magi- Gather is a world wide community however it still must follow laws of the land.
Waiting for someone to complain the submissions must be in english...bias, discrimination...why can't I submit it in Apache...damn
The prize may be taxed, but it's up to me to pay the tax, not Gather. Since mid-2006 Gather has periodically said that it is working to solve the issue of taxation regarding non-USA members, and has cited overseas taxation jurisdictions as the problem.
Ditto with the points - these, too, cannot be used by members outside of the USA.
Gather is a world-wide community in name only if its non-USA resident members are denied equality in rights and treatment - such is obvious discrimination. Gather has USA members enjoying all benefits, and second class citizens of the world who are denied the benefits. Your explanation doesn't wash!
Magi- Gather is a US company, thus has to follow US law. You want the rights of a US Citizen I suggest you apply at your local embassy.
Magi-Guess it sucks to be an Aussi on Gather...eh... A dingo eat your baby?
Donald C. - Your ugly caustic side is showing. Has that state bird of Maine pecked the manners out of you?
Gather is an online website..period..
Magi need further clarification http://usembassy-australia.state.gov
What Magi is complaining about is the fact that Gather does not provide the same rights and opportunities to non-Americans as other social networking web sites that are based in America. In this way, Gather is not as global friendly as other sites, or as much as it could be; regardless of the reasons.
It's analogous to an American that might belong to a foreign based web site which gave its country of residence members certain rewards but did not give those rewards to non-country of residence members.
Magi is not attacking our Americanism; nor is she demanding to be treated like an American. She would simply like to be treated equally as a Gather member.
i think i'll continue my background hovering...just assume i agree with everything my man bill says.
Resorting now to "TEACHER" of economics-
Magi- Please read your TERMS OF SERVICE
c. Gather Points. Users may be eligible to receive Gather Points directly from Gather for use of the Service over time and/or from certain advertisers. Gather Points may be redeemed by registered users ("Members") to purchase products and services from Gather or from other participating merchants. Gather reserves the right, at its sole discretion, to delete points from a user's account if Gather determines that any Gather Points have been awarded inappropriately or if a user violates this TOS or any other Gather policy or agreement. Users should be aware that Gather may issue Form 1099s to users who receive Gather Points that equate to greater than six hundred dollars ($600) in value. You should consult a tax expert for any tax related questions regarding your membership or Gather Points and Gather hereby, specifically, declines to offer any tax advice.
Magi- have you contacted your tax expert? Doubt it, or you would comprehend the issue of American Taxes and the old IRS.
Magi-Please provide the links to the social networks which you speak of..be interesting to check out this claim.
I passionately believe in the equality of all, and in the Aussie ethos of a fair go for all; thus I rail against some Gather members being treated unequally. I also believe that the commitment to equality by Americans should be reflected in what actually happens on Gather ... surely a showcase for American culture?
Overall, I very much like Gather as a site and value the friendships that I have made here, including many Americans. What I would like is for Gather to give priority in addressing the issue raised - as they have repeatedly promised to do.
I am awfully sorry, but truth be told, were this my company I would be yanking this contest and informing all those effected that the guidelines for submissions were terribly and very mistaken, explain what those guidelines are, and tell Simon and Schuster FORGET IT?
I know business is not always honest in order to "succeed" by American standards, but this is gaudy and full of holes.
Magi- Problem is, what you want can not be accomplished without Gather breaking laws.
Magi- Okay, just to get this right, you would rather see all gather points eliminated, no contests, and then you would feel better. Just to make it "FAIR" you want a level playing field. OH my, aren't you a selfish person...you want to ruin a chance for others to be published because you can not enter?
Magi-Okay, lets remove the Miss Black America contest, because damn it I'am white, or should it be removed because it also requires you to be American...and to make it truely unjustified..no males?
Magi- I again request these websites you make claims of.
Jennifer-American Business in this case did not step on any liberties. They are not saying you can not write about gay love, or erotica, they gave a guideline for what they desired. If they were asking for a GAY ROMANCE Story, then I guess it be okay and hetrosexuals would be the ones discriminated against? LOL
Listen, you can be gay, hetrosexual, asexual, what ever, its the story they desire in a certain catagory, they specified it openly.
To some degree, business decisions have to enter into it. The publishers are putting up money for a book that they hope will appeal to certain readers. So far, I haven't read a great crossover gay romance, one that appeals to both types of readers, although Brokeback Mountain MAY have been an exception.
The reality is that certain stories appeal to certain readers. As a writer and bookseller, I rarely have anyone who isn't gay ask for that type of fiction or love story.
If you create the venue then its your party and if its your party then you can make the rules and if you do not agree then make your own place and your own rules- isn't that what freedom means?
Nigel for President in 2008
" A Chicken in every Pot"