Marriage For Two, Please?
Marriage. Yes, marriage, not a civil union - marriage. What is a marriage really? It's two people that love and trust each other and want to celebrate that love by getting married.
Another way of looking at it is trying to say:
"Will you marry me?"
as opposed to,
"Will you enter into a civil union with me?"
Yes, I'm talking about marriage for all - whether they're gay, lesbian or straight and we can throw out those labels while we're at it too. Throw out the bigots too. While we're at it, throw out "don't ask, don't tell" too, as well as the illegal descrimination in workplaces for gays/lesbians and those they love.
For the record, I'm straight and have been married for over 20 years, but who am I to judge who ought to marry who? Nobody, that's who. Those who judge and those who support the state or government that prohibits a couple from marrying, shame on you! Those of you who'll probably start quoting the Bible ought to remember that one of the most important things in the Bible (yes, I read it too), is that we aren't to judge others. That's not up to us.
In fact, God made us all, (my beliefs only) and in that sense, he also made people that love others of the same sex, so how wrong could that be? To me, it's not.
We have friends that are straight, gay and lesbian and not one is better suited than the other, nor any nicer or kinder than the other. Stop the predjudice - that's all this is.
Remember - we don't "choose" who we fall in love with, or want to build a life with, it happens and that's a fact. To deny certain people marriage because of the sex of who they fall in love with, is to deny people's feelings and rights. We've lost enough rights in this country (and gained some too), over the years, to reject this one as downright stupid. And bigoted.
PEOPLE get married. PEOPLE fall in love and build families, and have good lives together, so think about that before you judge. And yes, I also believe that a stable married couple ought to be able to have children, but that's a whole other article.
This one is in support of gay/lesbian/ or people-in-love's marriages. Period.
Marilyn
mn - 2007
recommend this
email
print
link to this page
Comments: 150
My definition of marriage is one that's between two consenting adults who love and trust each other. NOT someone who's sick enough to rape their kids. Geez, Jeff, that's just nuts!
For the record, many of us don't find the idea of gay marriage "distasteful". Again, who are you to judge?
Sound familiar? marriage for ALL? If you say marriage is supposed to be for people who love each other who are you to judge incest or polygamists?
If you re-read my sentence of marriage for all, you'll see that I defined who ALL is. I don't think that I was the one who mentioned polygamists and incest, that was you. And it has nothing to do with the article at all - which anyone ought to be able to see. If you'd like to stick to the original article, where all means (and I said that) gay, lesbian and straight PEOPLE, go for it. Don't make this into something it's not.
Being disappointed in me is judging me and my opinions - something the Bible is very against. So in that sense, of course part of my opinion is Biblically based.
You could have also (though you didn't) cite the Biblical verse that says, "Be fruitful and Multiply", which applies, I suppose, also to married couples that cannot bear children for one reason or the other. That said, by the Bible, that's not grounds for divorce but they're not "being fruitful and multiplying".
I also thought that a Christian is to be tolerant of others opinions, as long as in this case, me - isn't saying anything to hurt you, which I'm not. Nor am I lieing to you about my opinion - I'm being upfront and honest about it.
I'm disappointed that you feel the way you do, but I'm NOT disappointed in you, as you have a right to your opinion as well.
Marilyn
Ivy, thank-you.
I have never understood the prejudices of people like Dale and Jeff...they pretend that they are Christians and yet they are so unChristian in their thinking. Doesn't make sense, does it!
God will judge us based on how we live our lives, not who we fall in love with or marry.
Anyone of a different faith will believe and rightly so, that theirs is the "only" faith that's correct - which includes so many it's even hard to count.
Not to mention that when you believe in Christianity, and you visit different churches that also do, you'll find totally different interpretations of the Bible in every one of them, as I did that for years - there's not a church around here in several towns that I haven't been to at least once.
We have to make our own judgements for ourselves, not for everyone else!
I'm all for it - just for others.
Marilyn,
We do know what standards God will judge us by because they are set down in the Bible and homosexuality is a practice described as unacceptable in the Bible.
People have the right to believe anything they want, to practice any type of christianity they choose but there is a big difference in how christianity is practiced today and the Christianity that is taught in the Bible.
Divorce is also unacceptable in the Bible, unless one or the other person is unfaithful.
There are many things that are worded so as to be taken more than one way, and also dependant on which Bible you're reading. There are many kinds.
What you're saying is anyone who isn't "straight" should either pretend they are (which is a sin) or be alone for their whole lives. God is good, or my God is and I just don't buy into that.
While it may be your sincere desire to be the Gather Spiritual Adviser you just can't make it a self proclamation and expect others to allow you to take the position. God is the only one who is in control and you need to let go of the reigns that do not belong in your hands when dealing with His people and understand WE HEAR FROM GOD TOO as I have told you before.
Your heart is in the right place and your intentions are good Dale, but like the old saying goes - The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.
Take Responsibility For Your Own Salvation - and allow others to be responsible for theirs Dale.
My cousin is gay and he and his partner have been together many years; I don't see any reason why they should not be allowed to marry.
"What you're saying is anyone who isn't "straight" should either pretend they are (which is a sin) or be alone for their whole lives."
Sin is an action, it would be possible for a person with homosexual tendencies to be a Christian as long as their tendencies did not lead to a sinful act. A practicing homosexual can not be a Christian according to the teachings of the bible.
"God is good, or my God is and I just don't buy into that."
Is there more than one God? And you are welcome to practice your faith any way you choose.
There are many denominations because so many interpret the Bible differently but the basics remain the same.
How can one choose to ignore a sin when scripture is so clear on the subject of homosexuality?
How can one be so judgemental when God is the only one who judges? That is very clear in the Bible too.
To those who sit in judgement, let me say this. Judge not, lest ye be judged. Clean up your own back yards, folks, and let everyone else tend to theirs.
I've not heard of these NEW eugenic laws you speak of...but, as a rule I am opposed to anything 'eugenics'. I'm not judging anyone, yet, I'm being judged judgmental. This is good.
The question here is legal or illegal. Gay and Lesbian marriages are illegal in almost all the states. Bigamy, incest and marriage between brother and sister are illegal in all states.
I believe that gay and lesbians who want to spend their lives together should be granted some sort of legal right, (which they can do - that is legal in all states). I believe that MARRIAGE constitutes the religious and legal joining of a man and woman. Why? Because, in America, this is a union that is considered religious. Even the Justice of the Peace uses a Bible when performing the marriage ceremony.
Some cultures consider "jumping the broom" to be a legal way of marriage. That is not recognized as legal by America. Opening the can of worms brings a whole bunch of new issues to the forefront. Why is bigamy illegal? If two, three or fifteen women want to be married to the same man, why not?
You see, Marilyn, this article opens up a whole new set of issues, not just gay/lesbian marriage. These other activities are illegal, as is same sex marriages.
No, they do not. (and I was married by one)
I do however disagree with anyone who would mistreat another over their personal free will choices such as choice of lifestyle or differing opinion regardless of who it is.
However you posted the above then turn around to show what disqualifies you as being anyones Spiritual Adviser and send this sad attempt of an insult to my e mail:
Dale Coparanis (dalecop) (block sender)
Tags:
Add your own tags, separated by commas, to help you find and organize your messages.
To: Debra H. (debh)
Subject: Private vs. Public
Date: Jun 09, 2007 08:11 PM
Message: Debra -
It's very interesting that I took issue with you in private and you did so in public. Again, very unpastorlike. I'd like to chalk it up to your being with child and the issues surrounding that, but then I would not be fair to all those women who handle pregnancy so well.
No, I think the issue is that you have issues. Don't know what they are, don't care to speculate. Not really my business at all.
I will continue to pray for you.
Dale
FYI Dale I have no issues with you, I told you what I felt before when I had to finally tell you to butt out because you couldn't accept it when I asked many times nicely for you to let God be God and deal with what was at hand and yes my pregnancy is more important than you getting your own way especially on trivial issues.
If you consider it to be unpastorlike all I can say is that is your opinion and you are entitled to it - chalk it up to whatever you like - it isn't as if it matters so you may as well get over it.
FYI I am handling my pregnancy quite well and things are back on course so stop trying to use my child as an excuse to make yourself look better and you are right it is none of your business.
I would appreciate it if you would have your little temper tantrums somewhere besides my e mail and if you don't want it made public then don't send it.
I'm coming from a different position than you when it comes to organized religion and prayer, but I have a question for you. It's actually a serious one and I would not ask a lot of people here because I'm pretty sure they would make a comment about my ring being satanic (which is always worth a laugh) and not answer. You, on the other hand, are remarkably reasonable so I ask...
Does it bug you when people who think you are wrong (about whatever) say they will pray for you?
This always seems like amazing presumption on their part (dear god, would you make so-and-so think like me, please?) but maybe I am missing something. Does it feel different if you are part of the same faith (at least in general, like both Christian or Muslim) or...?
Debra Absolutely not, everyone needs to get in some practice to improve their skills so they can grow and mature in the Spirit in time it causes them to develop character - but that is from my side of the fence.
However, Mage, you have to also look at the context it is used in and consider the source or person who says it as well. Some say it with a sincere heart but in some situations I find most people mean it as one of two or both things.
1. To try and make themselves feel and look righteous and holy - and normally I would refer someone to my article on The Whitewashed Church but knowing this is not where you come from I won't link it but it all boils down to the person fooling themselves.
2. To be sarcastic and is normally used as a last defense when they have failed to gain the upper hand.
When someone comes at you in this manner or says (also in a sarcastic manner) God Bless You, what they are actually doing is taking the name of God in Vain.
To take ones name in vain is to use it without that persons express consent or authority and God never authorizes His holy name to be used in such a manner or for the purpose to strike at someone's self esteem, well being or attempt to bring disappointment to their intended victim. They have committed a sin against God and not the person they have directed this at.
Take comfort in the fact that every time someone does this to you that when they stand at the White Throne Judgment before God they will answer for this and pay the price for this sin.
"Dan,
How can one be so judgemental when God is the only one who judges? That is very clear in the Bible too."
To recognize an act as sinful because it is taught as sinful in the Bible is not being Judgemental.
Dale, you are entitled to your opinion. That doesn't make you right in any way, I'm just acknowledging that you have a right to have an opinon, just like gays and lesbians have a right to be recognized as having feelings, including love. I don't believe that gays and lesbians CHOOSE to be gay any more than I believe that they can decide NOT to be gay just as easily. Do you really think that they just wake up one day and say "I think I'm going to be gay from now on." ?
Don't you remember the passage that says "Judge not, lest ye be judged."
The way I see it is that means it isn't for you to make decisions for God, that's His job. He judges all, sees all, knows all. He is also all-forgiving. Wasn't it also in the bible that man was made in God's image? I would think that would include gays too. Because as far as I can remember there wasn't any mention in there that 'Men are in God's image EXCEPT for gays.'
The real question is why do queers want to change the definition of a word instead of support legislation that includes them? Do they want equal rights or is this all about a fight with Christians who liberals make no bones about hating? Its about loud irritating liberals wanting a reason to be loud and annoying as they always are.
The truth is that we are talking about a document, a license granted by the government. Right now it is called a marriage license. What is so deplorable about a civil union licence? They can go and have their ceremony and call their union whatever they want. Call it marriage! Who cares???
The sad thing is that the angry left is so hell bent on attacking religious tradition in this country that they can't bring themselves to agree to a compromise that would give them all the things they claim to want. But no. They would rather keep this issue in presidential politics when there is a whole world of real issues that need to be addressed.
Queers and your supporters.....GET OVER YOURSELVES!!! You aren't victims and you are acting like a bunch of sniveling little babies that will hold their breath until they get their way.
Again Marilyn, I applaud you for bringing this topic to light. I am fascinated by all the comments (even Jeff, I don't mean to pick on you - yours was the last comment I read). I am glad we are in an environment where we are allowed to state our views and opinions.
"Dan, I believe in God and the power of prayer, but not the Bible."
Just curious, what do you use as a guide for your faith?
"Using the Bible to pass personal judgement is certainly judgemental."
Stating the fact that in the Bible certain acts are seen as sinful is not judgmental, it is simply stating the fact.
"However, truth is subjective"
But facts are not. It is both the truth and a fact that homosexuality is considered to be a sin by the Christian faith as it is written in the Bible.
This is what disturbs me. There is a solution. But first this article was about gay marriage as opposed to civil unions. I get called names if I don't completely agree with Marilyn and the others. I am bigoted, prejudice, hateful, unchristian, xenophobic (?) etc. Funny thing as that all these people who call me names always give the disclaimer that they aren't gay. They feel that it makes them even more superior to have the compassion and understanding of yet another "victim class". We all saw this superficial compassion with African Americans and look where that got them.
My point: All you "I am not gay I have been married for (??) years..." Stop getting in the way of the Gays that need the benefits and equal rights granted by civil unions with you ridiculous moral superior crusade against establishment. Yes you all know gays...... GOOD FOR YOU!!! So do I and I am related to one. Rights are more important than your political stance that has no ramifications on your own selfish lives!
Are you really upset because I posted it or because it exposed what level of lowness you were willing to stoop to by making an insulting comment about my pregnancy? Not only that you did it (and this is not the first time) but you did it just five minutes after you made your post and we both know you did it in a spirit of hatefulness and feign phony concern. So what fruit of the Spirit do you need to be exorcising here Dale?
You keep going on about what I should be and do as a Pastor IN YOUR OPINION but Dale what part of YOUR OPINION means nothing don't you understand?
Show me in the Bible where it says you personally possess a heaven or hell to put me in and have a right to that decision - why can't you just let God be God? Trust me He doesn't need your help.
Again, your opinions do not change a thing in my life or where I stand in my relationship with God. As for your refusal to apologize - what makes you think I need one from someone who isn't important? Who is the equivalent of a lot of words in a little box on a computer screen? You think I am going to lose sleep over it like you will?
Sweet Dreams Dale
If two people...ANY TWO PEOPLE....feel that they needd a religious ceremony to celebrate the fact that they have joined their lives together formally, they should be able to have one.
Because I have seen so many heartbreaking times when someone's life and lifetime partner has been excluded emotionally, legally, and even physically from the medical decisions that must be made when the person is no longer able to speak for themselves and from the inevitable grief process that ensues and have fully explained their preferences only to that life partner, a civil union which spells out each partner's rights and responsibilities is essential. It's the only thing that is good, and decent, and right. However, for some it is not enough. Some people want and need the public validation of their love and connection with another person. My feeling is that, if they feel that it is necessary they should be able to have it just like everyone else. Some people don't need it, and that's fine. It certainly shouldn't be forced on them. However, for those who do, it should be freely available. And it shouldn't be political, it should be only common decency.
Oh, and BTW, the idea that women are ruled by their hormones went out many, many years ago, little man, get with the times! I really cannot believe you actually made a snide pregnancy remark. Good heavens, you really ARE behind times! Does your wife walk ten paces behind you too?
And last, but CERTAINLY not least, if you want to act badly and think you can do it from the sanctity of a private message or email, you need to wrap reality a whole lot tighter around you, my dear, and keep it there with something snug and all-encompassing. If you're going to act like an ass, you can and will be shown far and wide as the ass you are. And it's legal, so don't go sniveling about that, either.
Whether you want to believe it or not, the word Marriage means something to those who wish to be together and the word Civil Union only serves to separate us as people from one another. Jeff, I don't know if you're married or not or you either, Dan, but Dale, I know that you are and think for a moment how you'd feel if that right was denied to you.
God made man (and woman) in His image. It stands to reason that He also made gay/lesbians as well, in His image. I don't remember and and can't see all of the comments right now, but whoever said that people don't "choose" to be gay or wake up one morning and think - "I think I'll be gay from now on", was right on. It's not a choice - it's the way God made a person, and the way the person behaves is very telling as to what kind of person they are inside, whether they're gay or straight. Kindness comes from both sides.
I was the one who'd originally said in this article that I'm straight, and that was to make a point, not so anyone could bring it up and ridicule it - the point is that I haven't been discriminated against for my preference on who I love and marry, not that you could throw it up in mine or anyone else's face as if it was a bad thing. Many of us sympathize with the way gay/lesbian people have been treated - they're no worse or better than you or I. And with that said, they ought to have the same rights as we do.
Sorry if you have a problem with that, I believe it was Jeff who seems to, but I'm still not sure WHY he does. And I haven't called you any names.
Dale,
You can say whatever you wish, and quote whatever you wish as well, but when you stoop to sending a wonderful person like Debra an email that shows how bigoted you are, that's really sad.
Kitchen Mage - If someone tells you they'll pray for you, without your asking them to, they may be very sincere in just wanting to help and there's nothing mean-spirited about that. I'd try (if you can) to take it with a grain of salt and also consider the source. Don't let it bother you as if someone is trying to be sarcastic in saying that to you, they're just trying to see if they can hurt you or anger you.
Liz - I've left churches for the same reasons you have. It doesn't change my beliefs, but you have to do what's best for you and yours.
June - We all have a right to our opinions - thanks to you and others here for stating them nicely.
Felix - Good to see you here - unfortunately I wasn't online when you commented, nor when the majority of you commented.
Debra - You are in my humble opinion, a good Pastor and an amazing person. Thanks for your comments and caring.
Dee and Rob,
Excellent and easy to understand comments. Anne Marie, you too.
Marilyn
Yeah makes the anti-civil union nut jobs looks ridiculous when their "fight" is what is preventing the queers from getting what they want.
However, not every happy couple/marriage needs to have children.... If Matt and I had kids, we probably wouldn't be happy anymore.
"You are claiming to state facts instead of your impression of the Bible."
Are you claiming there are no scripture condemning homosexuality in the Bible?
I can post them if you are so unfamiliar with scripture that you believe they do not exist.
"What makes you think that I have a need for something or someone to guide my faith."
Ron I don't know that you need to be guided in your faith by someone or something but it is obvious by your posts that you are in need of a good English dictionary so you can come to a better understanding of the meaning of words like "facts" and "truth", the definition of words are NOT subjective.
Marylyn,
I made my first post in this thread in response to a comment of yours that indicated you thought you had some insight to the thoughts of GOD ie God will judge you on this not that, which is not a correct reflection of what is written in the Bible.
Again, anyone can practice their faith how ever they wish from discounting parts of the Bible to no need for the Bible at all to using some totally different religious text or even making up their own. For me it is important to study what is written in the Bible to get a better understanding of God's word.
There are many who claim to be Christian because they choose to follow what they believe to be the most important ideals of the teaching of the teachings of Jesus, Love and forgiveness but then they project their own ideals of what those terms mean without trying to learn what Jesus intended or meant. I have seen christians (notice the small c) use forgiveness almost as a weapon against people who disagree with them and as a way to bolster themselves as being better than them, ie. I forgive you that makes me better than you. Forgiveness to Jesus is serious important and of great impact not to be used in such a flippant manner. I could go on but I'll stop there.
I understand the arguments against same sex unions being classified as a "marriage" but it would not effect my faith if that reclassification came about and same sex marriages were to become the law.
I agree with you on un-requested prayer, I need all the help I can get.
Dan - Same sex marriage isn't harming the state - and I have no idea why the state is involved. Makes no sense to me either, which is what this article was/is about in the first place.
Marilyn
Dan E. - (the last post was to Dan M., sorry if that was confusing), I don't think I'm better than anyone, ever. I really haven't seen here that people are forgiving people to let them know or think they're better than they are and that's a good thing - maybe I missed something?
I would love to see gay/lesbian marriage become a law. It might just stop the predjudice we or actually they have to put up with (that we don't) on a daily basis. Bashing of them and their partners, some of it done by those who claim to be Christians - some not. Still mean and wrong.
It must be terrible to have to hide your life from your workplace, in fear of losing your job or going out to a restaurant together and having to put up with innane remarks by people who have no idea who you are, or your partner is inside. I could go on and on too, but this pretty much makes the point I was trying to.
Marilyn
Morning people!
The fact is that people who need the rights that are afforded to married people are held hostage by people like you who demand marriage and are opposed to civil unions. The American people are overwhelmingly in favor of civil unions and that could get done if the democrat congress put up a bill. They haven't and they wont. You have shown that you too want no compromise. How open minded of you...
Whether you want to believe it or not, the word Marriage means something to those who wish to be together and the word Civil Union only serves to separate us as people from one another."""
Once again the word civil union only would appear on a certificate that you need from the government to get married. You can call your bond what ever you want after you get hitched. That is how childish the "anti-civil union" people are behaving.
Second are we given the right to change definition of words in the English language every time it suits our political ideology? In school should children be able to give your definition of marriage and not fail the question or is the integrity of the established English language what determines a correct answer. Listen to yourself.....
The only thing that I take from any bible or any religious document is the Golden Rule, a basic tenet in so many religions, and it's the tenet by which I live my life.
That said, (do onto others as you would have them do onto you, or how ever you prefer to say it,) the lives of others should be left to others.
Let everyone live their lives in peace and harmony as I live mine.
Don't restrict anyones rights, legally, medically, spiritually; that would restrict their peace and harmony.
What would I care if ANYONE wants to get married?
That's between them!
Fur sur!
Those that truly love should be allowed to love ... yet that can be done in private without offending any in my opinion. It is and should be, a personal experience and need not the 'authorization' of 'officialdom' ... except for those within the 'box' of 'official' reality ... which is sadly, most people.
God is love and a true relationship of true love IS Godly ... that is known and experienced as such regardless whether it is 'authorized' by mankind officially ...
If you do not know this truth ... then you must deal in the facts of mankind which are contrived for the purpose of 'official' orthodoxy and participation with it's box.
When within the box, one must play by the rules of the box definer ... or change them. God and Love are never contained withIN ANY box.
Jerry, Thanks for your comments; I'm going to reread what you just said and think about it, as you always leave good ones.
Debi - Thanks for coming back and leaving a comment, one that made perfect sense to me and that I also agree with. (you just put it better than I did!)
Kathleen - You also brought up some great points, and they too make a lot of sense. Thanks for your comments.
Anne Marie - Good afternoon, now I guess it is - you've been very supportive and I appreciate it.
Jeff - I do appreciate your comments as well, though we don't agree and even though you seem to think that I feel I "know everything", I don't. I do stand by my opinions and try to back them up as best I can though. Maybe we can agree to disagree?
Dee - Good to see you too - you and many others "got" the point of this article right off the bat. Thanks for leaving the comments you did.
And yes, Debra, the Bible was written by MAN and inspired by GOD (borrowing your words as they're so true). I wish you were our Pastor here! Anyone that says you're UNpastor-like is just wrong. (my opinion again and I've been to enough different churches to be able to have a good idea of what I'm talking about)
"Many words have more than one meaning however, interpretation of almost everything is subjective since it happens between our ears."
Yes but when we group words together the intention is revealed. There are things in the Bible that are subject to interpretation but most of the deviation from the teachings of the Bible is due to choice.
Truth IS subjective and relative as it relates to other than God. Truth to God is God's and can only be something to think about rather than claim here on earth ... [except of course for my own definition of which I wrote a book about (Spirit Calls ...) :-) ... in that, I posit that absolute truth is a paradox and a Trinity, where God as Spirit IS INvolved right in the middle ... expressed as (+=-). I call that the BET, the Basic Equation of Truth.
Facts on the 'other' hand, are but those things that have been 'agreed' upon as being accepted as such by common agreement by those that consider them so ... nothing else, as another person may well hold different views and refuse to accept such as their own facts ... perfectly acceptable for those that are INdividuals and CAN live fine OUTside of 'orthodoxy's box'.
Another distinction of word meanings is that between 'judgment' and discernment'. The first usually carries with it the 'conviction' and subsequent 'sentencing' ... things that should be left for God. The latter is simply that of 'noticing' the differences ... purely harmless in and of itself to others ... depending upon what the discerner then 'may' do about their interpretation. Discernment is highly recommended over judgement.
"Facts on the 'other' hand, are but those things that have been 'agreed' upon as being accepted as such by common agreement by those that consider them so ... nothing else, as another person may well hold different views and refuse to accept such as their own facts ... perfectly acceptable for those that are INdividuals and CAN live fine OUTside of 'orthodoxy's box'."
Nonsense!
Fact
1. something that actually exists; reality; truth:
2. something known to exist or to have happened:
3. a truth known by actual experience or observation
Facts can be ignored but people who don't see facts for what they are, are delusional.
Congratulations, Marilyn, for posting your notes on the right to marry.
It is encouraging to read the thoughtful and loving messages of many comments, and to smile and shake one's head at the fear adn anger in the posts of the homophobes.
Appreciate very much the pastoral contribution of Debra in the conversation.
Will someone please tell Felix that "homophobia" is not, necessarily, the fear of Gay
people, but also describes the UNCONSCIOUS anxiety, unease, and dread that attends the subject.
(That phenomena really deserves another article).
Those who ascribe to the authenticity of that Book are routinely insulted and told they are immoral, because the insulter holds different views. How blatantly two faced to do so in the name of tolerance. It is you who are claiming your views are so absolutely correct, that it is perfectly reasonable for you to pass judgement on any that hold another view. Claiming that is OK because you feel Christians are slighting you in some way obscure way, for having the audacity to think their own conclusions are correct, is but the thinnest and most easily seen double talk if one thinks about it objectively for even a moment.
Is it, or is it not, wrong to judge others by your own beliefs ? Why is it so right for you to do it ? Who else are you going to start picking at because they don't believe as you do ? To what other people are you going to dictate what is morally unacceptable to think. Who the hell made you worthy to proclaim other peoples thoughts degenerate ?
Who die and made you a god ?
"Those who ascribe to the authenticity of that Book are routinely insulted and told they are immoral, because the insulter holds different views."
In fact, dear John, it's far more often the vice versa. Those who DO NOT ascribe to the authensity.. etc., are routinely insulted and accused of immorality - in the most inpolite manner, to say the very least. I was accused in such a way myself, and many times - including here on Gather. Actually, the question is NOT as "black-and-white" as some people imagine. Some of the Biblical views are lofty and inspiring. Some are appropriate only for the period when they were written. Some are obsolete or downright offensive. Why, even the staunchest Biblical "literalists" can easily see it - only they're just not honest enough to recognize it!
IMO, the so-called "Golden Rule" is the only true ground for any true moral, equally appropriate for anybody, regardless of gender, sexual orientation or race. Behave toward others the way you would want for them to behave toward yourself. If one applies this rule, it's not so difficult to see why the same-sex marriages are not immoral, while rape and polygamy are.
Blessings-S.
I made no statement whatsoever about marriage or homosexuality.
But I declare my absolute right to believe as I choose, without the approval of any human being. I don't give a rodents behind about homosexuality, and I don't care in the slightest if someone elects to believe differently. I am not a part of any group of people that judge others, and I utterly reject any notion that it is proper for others to pass judgment on what I believe based on what I have experienced.
Who dares tell me they are my mental watchdog, that I should form my thoughts around what they happen to believe ? I am a free man, and yield to no one as my nanny.
Blessings and best wishes - S.
I am protesting the judgemental nature of this article that dares proclaim what is right for all to believe. It is an abomination.
If I were to do something so self righteous as to declare all who held a different belief than mine "immoral" or "judgmental" or "narrow minded", by default of my own perfection on the matter, I should hope someone would speak up and show me the hypocrisy I would have committed.
I didn't notice it. ;-) In fact, it doesn't say anything about people's BELIEFS at all. It says about people's ATTITUDE. And these two, o-h-h, are SO very different things...
Blessings - S.
Oh, so it is my "attitude" I must get approved by some person somewhere. No mam, I will not subject myself to the judgement of man.
I have but one Lord over me.
Just as gays are free to adopt the attitude they find most correct, and those that advocate for their right to marry, so to any who take the attitude it is wrong.
"Your freedom ends where the freedom of another one begins". :-)
Oh, so it is my "attitude" I must get approved by some person somewhere. No mam, I will not subject myself to the judgement of man.
I have but one Lord over me.
Just as gays are free to adopt the attitude they find most correct, and those that advocate for their right to marry, so too any who take the attitude it is wrong.
"Your freedom ends where the freedom of another one begins". :-)
For the record - in my country till 1993 any relationship between two men (sic!) was considered a criminal offence, being punished according to the law, and this law was often used by our authorities against dissidents of all sorts - who were sent to Siberia or to asylums. The idea was quite simple - if you accuse someone of being a free-thinker, he could easily find supporters and/or sympathizers, but if you accuse him of being a gay... in our pretty much conservative society... h-m-m. Heh. Clever, indeed. You remember, of course, that my country was called then Soviet Union, and that it was an ATHEISTIC country, of all countries of the world... another proof (if one ever needed any) that religion has very, very little to do with actual moral and actual "attitudes".
Blessings and best wishes - S.
What has that to do with me ?
What you are describing is an extension of the sort of thing this article is doing; selecting a "correct" attitude, and proclaiming those who have another are fair game for abuse. That is not freedom.
Each ought to advocate what they feel is right to advocate. When we begin down the path of ridiculing those who disagree with us, we begin down the path of discrimination, not freedom.
I'd also like to put in my vote as supporting Debra and her ministry. She is a kind, thoughtful person and in no way deserved that sniping, hateful e-mail from Dale, or as he is now known, Moving On.