Are American protests good for the country?

I agree, Michael. Let's hope that these protests will spark some higher than usual involvement.

Steve, a fine article for the group. Thanks.

Steve., Good article. Protest are the price we pay for living in a Democracy. When the day comes we do not have protest, then the fascist will be in power, or some other form of totalitarianism. Let's see how the protesters handle things and lets see how our Media handles the protest. Meanwhile lets promote constructive immigration solutions, we are dealing with people, not words. Thanks.

I wonder if any of you have seen these protests up close and personal.
I have. Although I think they are beneficial to a degree, most of the kids who walked out of my class had no idea what the reason was. They immediately blamed Bush, when it was Bush's bill that was more liberal than the House bill. They thought the law had passed. Only a few of the students even knew this much, most just saw an opportunity to scream and run out of class. Meanwhile the every school lost tens of thousands of dollars in attendance money. In my class we had a discussion. I invited the students to share their ideas. They did, but it is ironic that every group put on their poster a Mexican flag. A few years ago, a young chicana in my class told me in a horrified voice that the US soccer team was pelted with food and booed at the Rose Bowl when they played Mexico.
What you may not have seen, because the press took pictures from far away - was that almost all the flags in the protest in downtown LA were Mexican flags. There are illegal immigrants in Calif from Africa, Ireland, Russia, Armenia, India, and just about every other country.
Protest can be beneficial - but as a local DJ pleaded with kids walking out said: "If you abuse this -people won't take your seriously."
The other problem, as I see it, is that the radicalization of viewpoints does not promote careful discussion. Where do you go to protest if you are a moderate?

Nathan,

Thanks for your feedback. No, I have not seen these protests up close, but I appreciate your personal perspective. While I agree that not all protests bring about good, some do. Your quote from that DJ was very perspective...

Thanks!

Thanks for writing this Steve. I think that what The US needs is more protests and demostrations. Americans seem to forget that the politicians work for us and the only way they know what the population wants is when we tell them. most recently the upraor over the ports. Politicians will continue to do what they think is best unless told otherwise by thier constituants. This Administration and a republican Congress serve mostly big corprate interests(they do not look out for the people all the time.) They need money for campaigns and re-election so the corporations actively lobby and make thier interests known. The people need to do the same for things to change. France, Germany, England, the Netherlands among others are examples of western democracies that will not hesitate to step out and make sure thier govts know what the People want. Americans need to do much more of this. It is not wrong and is, in fact, right. Basic civil rights mean that evryone single person in a country has the right to step out and make thier voice heard something americans seem to have forgotten and are scared too often by what is just an exercise in expressing oneself.....

Two things strike me here.

1) I don't think a protest that doesn't carry with it at the potential for at least civil disobedience is much of a protest. Protests are frequently an indication that the proper channels are inadequately addressing the issue. If hundreds of thousands of people take to the street, that protest is an indication that there could indeed be public unrest, and it thus sends a message to the leaders that they'd better do something to address the concerns of the protesters.

2) I tend to think of a human as a human, regardless of their citizenship. But are those who migrate here without going through the proper channels entitled the same right to petition their government as full citizens? I don't know. I'm not saying they are not, but I would have to think about that a while before I came down on one side or another.

I think that peacefull protests on any issue are beneficial because they generate thought and discussion. They are certainly constitutional and are one of the finest American traditions. We should probably have more. I am, as usual, concerned about too much change too radiply. If we provide a way for the illegal aliens working and living in our country today to become legal without securing our borders, we will not have more people crossing without visas.? I saw one estimate that if we do not substantially improve border security we could have another 20 million people coming in during the next ten years. The are over 130 million people in Mexico and Latin America. When will immigration simply overwhem of educational and health systems?

I was encourgaed by a new report that the IRS has provided a way for undocumented workers to obtain a Tax ID number so they could pay their taxes. But what about the employers that pay worker in cash to avoid withholding Federal, State and social secutiry taxes. I suspect that this occurs alot more than we think. There has been a great deal of discussion on this subject in Congress, but cracking down on employers would require hiring and training large numbers of investigators to accomplish this goal. I am not optimistic about Congress coming up with any workable plan this year.

A common manipulation technique foisted by aggressive ideological groups is to stir up trouble at your opponents gatherings so as to paint them as ugly extremists to the public, add chaos to the spreading of their words and impair their ability to effectively organize and swell their ranks .

Additionally, protests are indications that unrest already exists among the populace. They are spawned by unrest, not the creators of it. As someone else said, protests draw attention to issues. and they usually do so in a way that reflects both spirit and numbers backing or opposing issues. Admittedly they are designed to share or spread unrest over a certain issue. And that is usually a good thing because "unrest" motivates people not only to discourse, but to action as well.

Seems to me that Protests are the upgraded versions of impromptu emergency town meetings.

Great article and topic. The bigger question for me is why American citizens aren't allowed to protest anywhere withing seeing range of the Bush administration. If we want to protest him, we have to catch him in another country where people are allowed to protest.

What I notice about these recent protests is the 'assumption' of so many that those protesting are all illegal.

Thanks all for your thoughts so far.

I have read and enjoyed all of your comments. I especially enjoyed reading Bill S.'s comment, "Seems to me that Protests are the upgraded versions of impromptu emergency town meetings." That's an interesting way of looking at protests.

The value of protest comes after all the hoopla of the demonstrations dies down. In an age where it's hard to get people to care enough about anything enough to get them out of their chairs, whenever an issue does get them out of their chairs and into the streets attention gets paid to it.
This forces the issue to be dealt with. The " dealing with " is never perfect and it is never complete, but it's a heck of a lot better than doing nothing, or, worse yet, letting the stronger voice simply shout down the weaker voice. So yes, protest is good for America.

Good to come back for a visit to this article, Steve. Congrats on Editor's Pick. Protest is good, but as some have said, it is difficult to get people motivated to DO anything. The protests in California surrounding the illegal alien issue is a far cry from what we have here in Mass.

Steve
Great article and thought provoker.

Protests and the right to assemble is a basic tenant of our country. It would be un-American to not protest. "Dissent is the highest form of Patriotism" Thomas Jefferson. As others have said the problem is that almost no one can be bothered. I wrote the following as a response to another article:
The ACTUAL point I was making was that most Americans are sitting on their couches and ignoring everything that is happening. We have not held anyone accountable for an illegal war, lies to the American public on a daily basis, fascist leanings supported by Republican officials, the most corrupt administration in all of history, and wiretapping every phone in America via the AT&T switching network etc etc etc.
The point is very few of us are protesting! It's a job we don't want to do. We are lazy and not engaged hoping someone else will do it or it will just go away /take care of itself.
I was lamenting the fact that I have tried to motivate everyone I know but they are not taking these abuses of Democracy seriously. And the people that are demonstrating are illegal immigrants that have no standing yet their voices ARE being heard. We need American OUTRAGE at what this administration has done to our country. Where is it????
Where are the protests? Let's start a protest monday or Grass roots friday. Every monday (friday) for 1 hour after work; a different topic - there's plenty of reasons. Let's show those current protestors that we too can take to the streets and have our voices heard. Let's show the rest of the world we do not support this war mongering, fascist, totalitarian administration.
And then we can all go and have a latte ( whatever that is). A tea drinker!

"Grass roots friday" ... Great idea, Shari!

The hypocrisy that has led to a "negative connotation" attached to protesting is saddening. I have heard far too many people claiming that protesting against American policies is un-American; but what can be more American than exercising the freedoms for which our nation was founded?

May 1st should be an interesting day of "protest" - unless other states, like California, consider having the day declared a "holiday."

Regarding the recent protests, one thing that seems to be forgetten is that most of us would not be in this country had it not been taken over by illigal immigrants centuries ago. If we are going to lable certain immigrants "legal" and others" illegal", perhaps we need to let the true natives decide which of us should be allowed to stay, and which should be deported to the land of our ancestors.

The other issue that troubles me is we don't seem to have too many problems when we benifit from the low prices we pay for goods produced by cheap labor when these "illegals" legaly stay in their own countries to produce cheap products for low pay. But should they decide they want to escape the poverty these systems we benifit from create, we decide to build more oneway fences to allow "us" to profit, and "them" to pay and stay.

The true power of protests comes when the participants are willing not only to march in unison for one day, but when the individuals that participate are willing to make a lifetime committment to non-violence in their whole life. There is also a need for us all to lose the "us" versus "them" way of looking at each other. Unfortunately until those awakings come, crowds will turn out, but the root causes of why the protest occurred are not likely to really change. But hopefully, these gatherings may be the beginning of the awakinging that we all are desparately in need of, if the human race is to survive to the next millenium.

Shari and Sandy I'm with you on this issue.

I also think there comes a time when "peaceful protests" don't work. We learned that in Vietnam (Kent State anybody?). Before Bushy and his henchmen pushed us into this insane, illegal war, hundreds of thousands of Americans, on a bitter cold February day, DID get on buses headed to Washington and DID protest Peacefully and Did march down Pennsylvania Avenue. The next day the press barely covered it. That same day MILLIONS of people protested peacefully in cities around the world against what they knew this administration was about to do and they had NO AFFECT! So I say there is a time when civil disobedience is necessary. When the rage against a totally corrupt system has to be expressed. This may happen if the next elections are as degraded as the last, if we do not have voting machines that will give us a paper receipt, and if the war mongers remain in office.

The one thing that seems missed in this discussion is the fact that these protests are carefully staged (and HEAVILY funded) media events. Their purpose has nothing to do with democracy -- it has to do with getting publicity. You have to ask yourself, who's funding all this, and why?

Furthermore, it is interesting, the amount of publicity these pro-illegal immigrant rallies have received while a recent rally in Boston, attended by thousands of people, which expressed the other side when COMPLETELY uncovered by the media. This creates the illusion that there is a spontaneous groundswell of popular support for pro-"immigrant' policies, with no one protesting it, when in fact, what we have is a heavily funded, tightly organized, media campaign by one side and a media boycott of the other side.

I'm not a conservative groupie by any stretch of the imagination. I am a former journalist myself, and I can tell you, the signs of "advocacy journalism" masquerading as "objectivity" is all over this issue. I'm concerned that these rallies are actually going to backfire on thier organizers. I know that, prior to the rallies, I was sort of middle-of-the-road, leaning more towards compassion for illegal aliens, but after hearing some of the things that have been said in this debate, I'm finding myself feeling less and less sympathy toward their point of view.

In truly "Brave New World" fashion, people are trying to argue an illegal immigrant is somehow no different from an immigrant who has entered this country legally. No, one has broken the law and one has not. Now, we can choose what to do about that (and I guess I personally prefer some sort of "don't ask don't tell" amnesty, AFTER the borders are secured), but if we can't get clear on that simple fact, then we are doomed as a nation, if we aren't already.

But this whole issue points to the culture of entitlement that we seem to have developed in this country over the past 50 years of government programs like welfare, etc. We have created an entire underclass of citizens who seem to feel that they are entitled to being taken care of.

You know, I used to work with a woman who had spent 20 years on welfare, who had moved on to a state job in our office. She was still living in subsidized housing, paying 250 for an apartment in Boston which, even back then, would have gone for about 600 on the open market. Her rent went up 10 bucks and she bitched about it. She bitched about the fact that, when she was on welfare, she had to take her kid to SEARS to have her picture taken, couldn't go to the more expensive Olin Mills. The other secretaries were outraged, not because they wanted to deny this woman something, but, as one woman put it, "WE can't afford to go to other than Sears; why should we be paying for YOU to go someplace other than Sears? Where's the justice there?"

And that's the bottom line in this debate for a lot of people -- there's no justice there. There's no justice in expecting one class of people to spend as long as five years trying to get into this country legally (having been married to an immigrant, I can vouch for the craziness of the system) and then say to another group, "You get a free pass." There's no justice in expecting already-overburdened schools to create special programs for people who can't/won't speak English. There's no justice in telling taxpayers (not asking them, not requesting assistance, but TELLING them) that they MUST pay for health care for anyone who wants it (as long as they've snuck over the border), while they are struggling to make ends meet themselves.

Americans are extraordinarily generous, but to tell them that you have an inalienable right to their resources, and they just better pony up -- well, it's just going to cheese people off.

And as for Vincente Fox -- arrgghhhh!!!!!!!!!!!! When did we start letting corrupt political leaders determine our immigration policies? Why is it that a country as resource-rich as Mexico somehow "can't manage" to take care of its poor? We're being played for saps.

BTW, "town meetings" are a notoriously horrible way of running a town or a country. I know, I know, it's all romanticized as the purest form of democracy, but as a citizen of a town which is still run on the town meeting system, I can tell you that democracy is an illusion in town meeting. What happens in town meetings is that interest groups pack the meetings to forward their own agendas, and if you're lucky and the moderator likes your side, you MIGHT get called on, but if not, you can kiss your "democracy" good-bye. Lots of crazies get up and yak endlessly, and people who give thoughtful, intelligent analyses of situations are usually ignored.

For almost my entire life, I self-identified as liberal, radical, progressive, what you will. But over the past few years, I have really taken a hard look at my friends and the way that they view the world, their fellow citizens, the world around them, and frankly, I am appalled. Compassion has hardened into self-righteousness, and this is what has caused the death of liberalism, not talk radio or any other convenient enemy. Anyone who disagrees with them on this issue is a "racist." This effectively destroys any chance at civil discourse, but my friends are not particularly interested in having a civil discourse or even making a difference -- they are interested in being right and looking good.

A protest rally is a chance to be right and look good and not much else.

While protesting might be seen to some as a fruitless and traffic blocking nuisence, I believe that "wide-spread" protest rallies are one of the few true ways to get our elected representatives attention in todays world. While I might not like the subject of any particular protest group, the fact is that they can have an impact on policy decisions.

Several weeks ago you were seeing statements from both houses saying that immigration reform wouldn't likely come to a conclusion this year. Now with half-million person rallies in LA and the like it's THE hot-button issue and both houses are working hard and fast to come up with some reforms.

I believe that the current immigration issues will come to bite the Republican establishment in the rear quarters and they will lose much of the ground they have gained in the last 6 years with hispanic voters. That could highly alter house races and eventually the presidential race in '08.

Louis,

That incident you mentioned is unfortunate. If people want to protest, they must respect the rights of others to do the same.

Steve

Go Wendy!
Why is everyone afraid to use the word illegal immigrant. And Tom, the illegal immigrants to what became the U.S. rebelled and formed a new government for the true practical reasons. . . economic, and decade after decade kept pushing for reform and change and franchisement of all citizens, remember slaves and non voting women, etc, etc. I keep wondering why our Mexican immigrants, illegal, some made legal by law a few years ago, Say "I am Mexican, I demand U.S. rights, I love Mexico", but none go home and work for change there? ? ? ?, and yes I love these people, they are "american" in every essential meaning of the word, but you cannot deny they are being used by the current business and political leaders as cheap slave labor and you are paying for this now and will pay more later.
Wendy,
PS, I say if we are to be responsible for the welfare of the Mexican people we should annex Mexico. We can send their current elite off to Switzerland with their current cash. Mexico is a resource rich nation, farmland, minerals, seacoasts, oil. . . . and wonderful people yearning to be free and prosperous.

Protest is as American as Apple Pie. When the government does something loony or dangerouus (think Vietnam, Iraq, the proposed nuking of Iran), we need to take to the streets. We also need to develop other forms of net-based protest (like organizing a nationwide boycott of Walmart's until they understand the moral difference betwen free trade and fair trade).

And of course, protests are media events. Do you think the Boston Tea Partiers dressed up as Indians just so they wouldn't get recognized? Nah, naked play for coverage in the British News Sheets. Karl Rove woulda been proud.

And re the immigrant debate --- one of the principal points of the "protests" was to make the point publicly and clearly that our "illegal" immigrant population is here -- real honest to god people, not an ijnvisible underground work force. Here by the millions, oing jobs that we won't do at wages we won't take.

And what, one might ask, are we afraid of in these protests? Of people who come here to work???? Hell, open the borders. Immigrants are our strength, our lifeblood. And --- news flash -- we have absorbed every major wave of immigration in this country's history by wealth creation. I suggest, quite seriously, that if we just opened our borders up to Mexico we'd increase our own GDP by a minimum of 10% inside five years.

And if we adopted fair tade policies a required China to correctly value the Yuan, we'd cut our trade deficits in half in two.

Our rights as guranteed under the Bill of Rights allow us to protest peaceably as we feel the need. In someplaces depending upon the local statutes & laws a permit mybe required but we have the right to assemble in a peceaful amnner to vent our complaints.

Peter, re your initial question, I've just posted an article that tries to answwer that question in statistical context.

hey pete , thats good stuff but what about the millions of "illegals" that are serial killers, gang bangers, and just pond scum...bad people...with no language, sense of family , religion , education or any real want for these values.....do we let them stay...or assimilate as you say ...the word here is "illegal", that denotes law breaker...if Mexico cannot deal with the animals .,why does the US have to absorb the garbage, as if we are niether savage nor wise because half measures are the curse of it...and this country has a bag full of home less , predators, Mexican crime cartels, and everything in between.....When our grand parents wanted change and migrated, it was not for a better life in the states because life here was hard...the reality...it was survival... family values and religion barely held people together but still the rackets and organized crime overwhelmed the face if immigrant communities ......does Kennedy live in an urban jungle? Just because you have command of the english language does not entitle you to anything as a foreigner during time of war and a high state of national security.....funny how some of these people marched in protest for citizen ship in the US waving Mexican flags! ....now thats how you win sympathy....just because burned out liberals like Kennedy missed it or don't want to admit seeing it , doesn't mean as a tax payer and son of a world war ll vet, that i have to swallow this crap!.....I have dear friends from other countries that settled in the states to raised famlies and quietly maintain their tradition and culture in the home, pay taxes, do honest work, and live with the hope that better days are in the future for their children with no intention of going back to oppressive political and high cost of living climates that are now choking the life out of this country too!

WENDY, WENDY, WENDY great comment.
Please post that comment as an article...let folks comment on THAT!

Ever hear the phrase "the wandering Jew"? It comes, in part, from the search of a people for the land they want to call home. Ever wonder why rights of emigration (the right to leave one's nation) are as important as the rights of immigration (the right to go into another)? Mexico's constitution specifically protects the rights of Mexican citizens to leave Mexico in search of a different or better life where they please.

Think of these facts in light of the hyperbolic emotionalism, usually by the fanatically right wing, about our "broken borders." Borders are made to delineate countries and to give a sense of organization around the main space a culture might call home. When walls, bars and fences are constructed to keep people inside a place, it becomes a prison and the "border" becomes a commanding force of a totally different kind.

It is not an accident that Europe has tried to integrate into a union of countries where social justice and human rights are more important that crossing gates. America needs to fundamentally re-think its idea of what it means to be the greater part of a whole without assuming that barriers serve useful purposes.

Wander on Americans, in protest or otherwise!

America's borders will never be broken if we remember why they are there instead of seeking ways to make them more of a fortress to keep others out and ourselves trapped within.

Allan

You're very perspective, Allan. I'm sure that we a debate about what "border" actually means could last years. Or it could follow the path of ancient philosophy; at the end of the lenghty debate we'll all say, "We don't know."

Well we do know that most of the world is not going in the direction of the good-old USofA. As we all recognize that this is but one planet we live upon, it would be comforting to realize that there may indeed be wisdom in the crowd the marches in a different direction.

Allan

Allen
Social Justice and Political Freedom is an important part of being in the EU and is why Turkey is having so much trouble getting admitted, and why it took so long for Portugal and Spain to get in not so many years ago.