I didn't really think about it much at the time, but after reading one of Steve's recent comments, I was reminded that while the Tragedy of the Commons isn't universal. Some societies manage communal resources quite well. Steve said:
Let's take your example of overgrazing first. The issues that characterize the "tragedy" occur precisely because of the fact that private property rights are absent from the equation. Note that "overgrazing" is a non-issue where privately-owned farmlands are concerned. This is because the farmer is the private owner of the land being grazed, and stands to profit from its upkeep. He has a guiding incentive to keep the land sufficiently seeded; the value, profitability, and utility of his land are all dependent upon it.And that reminded me of a study (Sserunkuuma and Olson, 2001) of the Bahima people, in southwestern Uganda. Traditionally, they moved around and pastured their cattle throughout their tribal territory. Each herder grazed his cattle on commonly-owned land, but overgrazing wasn't a problem, because he was "subject to strong social controls on whose herds can graze and on how many animals can be grazed." In other words, there wasn't unrestricted demand for a finite resource. Tribal customs placed sufficient restrictions to ensure that the resource (pasture land) wasn't depleted.
So not only did traditional management of common resources allow for sustainable use of the land, it turns out that when that traditional system was replaced with one based on private ownership of land, then overgrazing became a problem. So much for Steve's assertion that overgrazing is a non-issue where privately-owned farmlands are concerned.
Later in the discussion, the issues of clear-cutting forests and strip-mining land for mineral resources came up, and again Steve offered a common libertarian perspective:
Private owners of forests, whose livelihoods depend on the continued utility and value of their property, are stupid enough to "clearcut and stripmine them."I responded with a comment about people choosing gains in the short-term over the long-term (discounting the future, a very common human behavior), but Steve's comments made me curious to learn more about the views of some libertarians with regard to environmental issues. And that led me to discover some fairly disturbing aspects of libertarian thought.
I was hopeful; that, at least, I could get you to admit to the very common sense principle that private owners of scarce resources -- such as forests, fisheries, and mines -- take care to insure the continued productivity and value of their investment, if for nothing else than their own sheer economic self-interest... but apparently your collectivist brainwashing is so thorough that you aren't even able to recognize something as plainly common sense and obvious as this.
For example, in "The Environmentalist Threat" by Lew Rockwell (founder of the Mises Institute, VP of the Center for Libertarian Studies, etc.), I came across this:
Like socialism, environmentalism combines an atheistic religion with virulent statism. But it ups the ante. Marxism was at least professed a concern with human beings; environmentalism harks back to a godless and manless Garden of Eden.And this:
The normal attitude for most of human history was expressed by the Pilgrims, who feared a "vast and desolate wilderness, full of savage beasts and men." Only a free society, which has tamed nature over many generations, enables us to have a different view....Few of us could survive in the wilderness of, say, Yellowstone Park for any length of time (even though the environmentalists let it burn down because fire is natural). Nature is not friendly to man; it must be tempered.And this, with regard to the Exxon Valdez oil spill:
From all the hysteria, and the criminal indictment, one might think Exxon deliberately spilled the oil, rather than being the victim of an accident that has already cost its stockholders $2 billion dollars. Who is supposedly the casualty in the Justice Department's "criminal act"? Oiled sand?He goes on to bitch and moan about attempts to stop ridiculously excessive waste ("we must privatize the entire garbage system"), global warming ("even if it were to take place, many scientists say the effect would be good"), ozone depletion ("the scientific evidence is far from convincing"), acid rain (one problem is "the assumption that nature has the right to rainwater at a certain pH"), killing dolphins in tuna nets ("[environmentalists] want an end, in effect, to the organized tuna industry"), species extinction ("The only environmental impact that counts is that on humans").
If I may use the environmentalists own language: oil is natural, it's organic, and it's biodegradable. It will go away. (Although if it didn't, it wouldn't exactly be the end of the world.)
Based on these statements, it seems clear to me that for libertarians like Rockwell, the liberty they so desperately crave includes the freedom to do whatever they like with their property, even if that means destroying it. Rockwell sums up his position very nicely with this comment:
Chicken or chickory, elephant or endive, the natural order is valuable only in so far as it serves human needs and purposes. Our very existence is based on our dominion over nature; it was created for that end, and it is to that end that it must be used--through a private-property, free-market order, of course.It's stuff like this that, for me anyway, blows apart the libertarian claims that their views are all based on reason and "natural law".
But the references to clear-cutting and strip-mining reminded me of another libertarian, Walter Block, another anarcho-capitalist libertarian who Lew Rockwell says was the logical successor to the title of "Mr. Libertarian" when Murray Rothbard died. In Defending the Indensible, Block specifically mentions "The Stripminer":
What of the other argument against the strip miner: that stripping spoils the natural beauty of the landscape? This is a shaky objection at best because, when it comes to beauty or aesthetics, there are no objective standards. What is beautiful to one person may be ugly to another and vice versa. It is true that strip mining removes the vegetation, grass and trees from the landscape. It can turn a lush, fertile landscape into a veritable desert. But some people prefer the desolation and emptiness of the desert!And:
But...the issue is not really about beauty, though it is phrased as if it were. The real objection seems to be that strip mining is an intrusion upon nature by an offensive industrial society. The notion that land areas should be left in their "natural state" seems to be the operative one. But if the lovers and protectors of "nature as-is" have the right to prevent strip miners from operating, then they also have the right to prevent farmers from clearing virgin soil and planting upon it, and to prevent builders from erecting buildings, bridges, factories, airports and hospitals. The "argument from nature" is really an argument against civilization and against the use of human intelligence.I think many of these arguments indicate how disingenuous many libertarians are when they claim that pollution and environmental degradation wouldn't be problems in a "private-property, free-market order". In such a system, property owners would have every right to destroy their property (and every living thing on it) if they wish. If doing so somehow causes harm to you or your property, they say you can sue. I guess it's just too damned bad if the judge or the jury agrees that the oil on your personal bit of coastline is natural, organic, biodegradable, and will eventually go away, so it's just too bad if you don't like it. Or it's just too bad that you can't prove that the toxic chemicals in your lungs came from their smokestack, and not from the smokestack of one of the other thousands of chemical plants that also pollute the air.
Actually, many among those who condemn strip mining as "unnatural" would themselves object vigorously if other conditions--homosexuality or miscegentation, for example--were objected to on those grounds. They would point out that very little is "natural" to man, and that sometimes what is natural--murderous rage, for example--is not what is best. Civilization depends to a great extent on our being able to transcend nature.
I don't think many people would deny that there are problems with the way most of our political and social systems work (or don't work). And I enjoy examining those problems from a number of perspectives (including many of the various libertarian perspectives). But I don't want to just swap one bunch of problems for another, and I don't buy into the promises of Libertopia.


Comments: 35
Like your article Wil B. thanks
This has gone on, on this land, for nearly a hundred years. In all that time, there has been no negative impact on either the surrounding properties, or the wildlife habitat contained within the property.
Your arguments, that humans think only in the near-term seems to stem from someone who's livelihood does not come from owning lands. It also appears you have a limited knowledge of land management from an owner's perspective.
These two things lead me to discount a great deal of your piece, but I have an inside track. Not everyone does.
Private property is just that - private property and it needs to remain that way.
I guess that's the opposite extreme, and it also failed to create a suitable outcome (suitable for those people, in that place, at that time). And I suppose it's also an example of the problems that can result when there's an abrupt switch from one system to another. Just as there no doubt would be many problems if the US switched to a radical libertarian system of complete private ownership.
Thanks for your comment, Jack. You raise a very good point when you mention the power of eminent domain -- enshrined in the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution. There has never been an absolute right to own private property in the United States. Presumably that's why many radical libertarians would prefer to do away with the Constitution, and with the United States, and with government in general.
These two things lead me to discount a great deal of your piece, but I have an inside track. Not everyone does."
But I didn't argue that humans think only in the near term, or that it's impossible for any private property owner to manage their land in a way that isn't harmful. Some do, some don't.
My argument is that having all resources under private ownership doesn't guarantee (as many libertarians argue) that they will be managed in a rational way. Many of these radical libertarians think the world would be a better place if everything were privately-owned. I disagree.
I understand what you're saying, Andrea. And I'm not advocating that those peoples' private property be taken away from them. I'm saying that I don't believe property rights are absolute, or that all property should be privately-owned.
If all land were privately owned, how would a person go about leaving their property if their neighboring land-owners refused to allow them access to their land? Under the current mixed system of ownership, I can leave my privately-owned property by using publicly-owned property such as roads, sidewalks, etc. If those things become privately-owned, what do I do if the owner forbids me to use them? I become a prisoner on my own property.
Another issue is whether people have some sort of natural right to do whatever they want with their privately-owned property. If Bob wants to clear-cut the forest on his land and grow crops on it, that's his business, right? And if he wants to force his children to work themselves to death (literally) in the fields, that's his business too, right? That's what libertarians such as Murray "Mr. Libertarian" Rothbard say.
I know that is not what he is actually saying, however that is the message that he seems to project based on Socialist values.
Any fringe, of any movement, is going to have their wacky ideas. If you're trying to argue against the ramblings of a fringe member, you are wasting your time.
However, if you are arguing that lands privately held should somehow be confiscated for the greater good...then you are espousing socialist ideals, and I would put you in the aforementioned fringe element.
I know that is not what he is actually saying, however that is the message that he seems to project based on Socialist values. "
No Tim, I wouldn't prefer that the government own everything. I don't think that would be a good thing. I also don't think it would be a good thing for you to own everything. Or for me to own everything. And I don't think it would be a good thing if everything was privately-owned. I prefer that there be a mix. Some private property. Some public property. Not socialism. Not communism. Not capitalism. A mix.
CA, I haven't argued that the government doesn't have the right to create national parks. And I agree that individuals have the right to turn their lands into a park, or sorts, if they wish. And further, I agree that the government then has the right (it says so right there in the Constitution) to take that individual's land against their will and turn it into a national park (or something else), as long as the individual receives "just compensation."
"Any fringe, of any movement, is going to have their wacky ideas. If you're trying to argue against the ramblings of a fringe member, you are wasting your time."
I guess I'm trying to work out exactly where I stand on some of these issues, more than I'm trying to argue against anybody in particular. I don't consider that a waste of time.
"However, if you are arguing that lands privately held should somehow be confiscated for the greater good...then you are espousing socialist ideals, and I would put you in the aforementioned fringe element. "
But I'm not arguing that privately-held lands should be confiscated for the greater good, and if you think that what I've said espouses socialist ideals then I would say you don't know much about me or about socialist ideals.
No offense meant.
The libertarian argument uses the tragedy of commons as a soundbite, but doesn't actually get (or doesn't want to get) the mechanism behind it.
Unfortunately, not only does private ownership (without proper regulation) not prevent environmental problems, it's the perfect "tragedy of the commons" situation. If you're thinking only about overgrazing or deforestation, this might not be clear, but our biggest problems today are air pollution (greenhouse gases, etc.), water pollution, and drought (we're using water faster than it can replenish itself through the natural cycle). And air and water (as it takes part in the water cycle) cannot be directly owned, and they do not stay on your property. The effect of your actions on air and water are not borne by you only, but by everyone, so it makes no (economic) sense to put yourself at a disadvantage and pollute less or use less water than your competitors.
This is an exact parallel, if you think about it, of the situation of the owner of the sheep on the commons: why should he use less than the others? Even is he spares the grass/water, his neighbors won't, and the common resource will be destroyed anyway--so he might as well get his while there's any to be had.
This is the modern tragedy of the commons. The "commons" is the parts of our environment--most of it--that is a common resource and cannot be privately owned and controlled. The privately owned property (whether it's land or a factory), corresponds to the privately owned sheep of the English villager.
There is room for debate clearly, but the current depletion path is not sustainable.
Neither public nor private ownership is inherently sustainable or unsustainable.
Fair enough.
"No offense meant.
None taken.
This paragraph seems to rest on the assumptions that (a) owners of property actually tend toward destruction and degradation of it, and (b) that potential judges and jurors of property rights violation cases (odds are a few of whom would be property owners themselves) would be so ignorant or vindictive to ever take such an approach as you envision ("the oil on your personal bit of coastline is natural, organic, biodegradable, and will eventually go away, so it's just too bad if you don't like it"), considering the inherent invasion of property as the case entails.
In any case, if that's the best argument you can present as to why property should not be owned by individuals (who actually exist, and can thus act rationally to see to the care and management of it) instead of by "the public" (who does not exist, and thus "the public" cannot act rationally, or act at all, for that matter); then I have to say I still feel pretty secure in my position.
Thanks for the publicity, by the way. I probably would have asked you if you minded me using direct quotes from you as subject matter for one of my articles; but oh well.
It's not as if I was wronged, or anything. Just my innate sense of fairness. ;-}
It's a revolutionary method, it's called DON'T BUY THEIR PRODUCTS.
Private property and land management is a concept many don't understand, if they've not had the opportunity. Those who have had farms in their family, understand the blessings of utilization. And, when it is your livelihood, you learn very soon what works, what doesn't, and if you don't take care, it would become unproductive and useless. Public land control would become a bureaucracy, much dozens of other government controlled programs.
Pastures are divided; before one is over used, they are moved on to another section, then moved back. So cattle rotation...
Crops used to be planted in rotation as what one crop took out of the ground, the other put back in. The rotation = COW - Corn, Oats, and Wheat. Today, because of the control of/and hybrid seeds (GM or Genetic Modified), this rotation has been abandoned, thus the land has become dependent on side dressings (weed killers & strong fertilizer). NOT a good thing for the crop. Minerals in the soil are depleted thus today's corn has poisonous content and very little nutrition.
And, we don't actually truly own property - just try not paying the taxes - so we have use of it...
Now, this reminds me of an article, "USE and ABUSE of Blessings", By Brigham Young. This talk is in a book from "The Primer" by Rick Koerber of The Free Capitalist (freecapitalist.com). The article stresses the utilization of land and it's production. If we have more than we need, we should allow others to utilize and reap additional benefits.
"Have these people been blessed too much? I will not positively say, but I think that they have, inasmuch as their blessings in some instances have been to their injury. Why? Because they have not known what to do with their blessings." ...be prudent and let nothing go to waste. ...and what you get more than you can take care of yourselves, ask your neighbors to help you. ...That is what I recommend you do with your blessings, when you have more than you can take care of yourselves. I say, hand it over and let your neighbors take care of it for you."
What I've found, that most people don't understand, is the more you give, the more you get back. But people live in scarcity because that is the way they were raised, taught, and educated by those who lived through the last Great Depression. Fear of not having enough, of outliving your money, and being just plain selfish.
Now, we can be selfish, with not only our blessings of land or money, we can be selfish with our time and our knowledge.
Rick readily talks about the BOC - Brain off Conspiracy and I see it every day. His descriptions and explanations in "The Primer" are thought provoking and enlightening. I WAS a Brain Off but had a paradigm shift and understand we must continue to read and study and share.
Steve Bachman is an excellent resource as it is obvious he not only reads, but retains what he's read (one of my problems), and he unselfishly shares that blessing here on Gather, with very little appreciation, I might add. WHY? The BOC is rampant on Gather. What I've also found here is that many times, the poster of an article is defensive and not willing to learn from other's perspectives.
Steve is right too - we should vote with our dollars - that will have the biggest impact. Will also sustain quality products over cheap sudo products. If we all buy cheap, what will happen to quality? They will disappear, as many have.
I'm not in favor of others controlling my land "for the good of everyone" ALWAYS turns out to be for the good of Corporatists. The thousands of family farms have disappeared because of government controls, intervention and push to large corporate farms. Thus, total control of our food supply. There's what has already happened to your desire for public land control!
Tim, I don't have a problem with Marxists or any other kind of communist, if that's what they want to be. I just don't want them to try to force me to be one.
And that goes for socialists and capitalists and Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons and Baptists and the Amish and Republicans, too.
And many of the libertarian arguments seem to rest on the assumptions that (a) owners of property never tend toward destruction and degradation of it because they're all perfectly rational actors who value the environment, and somehow aren't affected by the very natural human tendency to discount the future, and (b) the potential judges and jurors in an anarcho-capitalist libertarian society wouldn't be anarcho-capitalist libertarians with views similar to those expressed by Lew Rockwell, one of the most prominent anarcho-capitalist libertarians around today.
"In any case, if that's the best argument you can present as to why property should not be owned by individuals (who actually exist, and can thus act rationally to see to the care and management of it) instead of by "the public" (who does not exist, and thus "the public" cannot act rationally, or act at all, for that matter); then I have to say I still feel pretty secure in my position."
Since I'm not arguing that property shouldn't be owned by individuals, I still feel pretty secure in my position, too. I'm arguing that not all property should be owned by individuals.
"Thanks for the publicity, by the way."
You're welcome. I don't agree with your views, Steve, but I think they're important and should be discussed, rather than ignored.
"I probably would have asked you if you minded me using direct quotes from you as subject matter for one of my articles; but oh well."
I can't imagine why, but if that's the way you roll, it's no skin off my back.
"It's not as if I was wronged, or anything. Just my innate sense of fairness."
No, it's not as if you were wronged, or in any way treated unfairly. Maybe in Libertopia people have absolute ownership of their words, maybe even their ideas too, and other people have to ask permission before they can use them in any way, but not here in the real world, Steve. I quoted you and attributed the quote to you. I did the same when I quoted Lew Rockwell and Walter Block, and when I discussed the study done by Sserunkuuma and Olson. How silly to think that I should asked if any of those people minded before I included any of their words, ideas, and knowledge in this discussion.
It's a revolutionary method, it's called DON'T BUY THEIR PRODUCTS."
I'm sure that would work just fine in Libertopia, Steve. But here in the real world, we're not all rational agents with perfect information.
I'm with you all the way considering all of those!
The libertarian argument uses the tragedy of commons as a soundbite, but doesn't actually get (or doesn't want to get) the mechanism behind it."
Thanks, Aniko.
I think some Libertopians honestly do believe that private ownership of the entire planet really would benefit the environment. But guys like Lew Rockwell and Walter Block show nothing but contempt for both the natural environment and for those who care about it.
"The libertarian argument uses the tragedy of commons as a soundbite, but doesn't actually get (or doesn't want to get) the mechanism behind it.
Unfortunately, not only does private ownership (without proper regulation) not prevent environmental problems, it's the perfect "tragedy of the commons" situation. If you're thinking only about overgrazing or deforestation, this might not be clear, but our biggest problems today are air pollution (greenhouse gases, etc.), water pollution, and drought (we're using water faster than it can replenish itself through the natural cycle). And air and water (as it takes part in the water cycle) cannot be directly owned, and they do not stay on your property. The effect of your actions on air and water are not borne by you only, but by everyone, so it makes no (economic) sense to put yourself at a disadvantage and pollute less or use less water than your competitors. "
As I understand it, the hard-core libertarians want to own the air and the water, too. Apparently one libertarian academic, back in the early 70s, declared that it would be best if the Mississippi River were in the hands of a company like General Motors. I can only imagine how well that would've worked out.
I am in 100% agreement, Dudley. I don't think there's a one-size-fits-all solution. Just as I don't advocate for total private ownership of the entire planet, I don't advocate for total government ownership of the entire planet, either.
Private property and land management is a concept many don't understand, if they've not had the opportunity. Those who have had farms in their family, understand the blessings of utilization. And, when it is your livelihood, you learn very soon what works, what doesn't, and if you don't take care, it would become unproductive and useless."
Thank you, Linda. I recognize that many farmers and other types of land-owners are deeply committed to taking care of their property, and that often, part of that commitment is about ensuring that the land remain productive. I've found that their approaches to stewardship is often much more pragmatic than those of other types of environmentally-conscious people.
"Now, this reminds me of an article, "USE and ABUSE of Blessings", By Brigham Young. This talk is in a book from "The Primer" by Rick Koerber of The Free Capitalist (freecapitalist.com). The article stresses the utilization of land and it's production. If we have more than we need, we should allow others to utilize and reap additional benefits. "
Thanks for the reference. I've downloaded a copy of Koerber's Primer and started skimming through it. And I've also skimmed through Young's "Blessings" speech. Your paraphrasing reminded me of the Marxist slogan, "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need", although I'm sure that neither Young nor the Free Capitalists would appreciate the connection.
"What I've found, that most people don't understand, is the more you give, the more you get back."
I agree.
"But people live in scarcity because that is the way they were raised, taught, and educated by those who lived through the last Great Depression. Fear of not having enough, of outliving your money, and being just plain selfish."
Not just by those who lived through the Great Depression. Capitalism is all about scarcity.
"Thus, total control of our food supply."
Who's got total control of our food supply? The large corporate farms? To some extent, sure. But not total control. And how would it be any different in an anarcho-capitalist libertarian society? Those who control the land (and the water, and if they can figure out how, even the air!) will still control the food supply, won't they?
I won't speak for anyone else -- "libertarian" or otherwise --, just the assumptions that inform my own views: It would be ridiculous for anyone to assert that all owners of property, particularly that which is utilized in economically in a productive capacity, either possess or could act perfectly rationally if they did possess perfect information, or that all owners of property manage it well and that none tend toward destruction.
However, in a system where private property rights were established and protected under the law, then the people who did tend toward the destruction of their own property would bear the full cost and the burden of that destruction themselves; it would not be passed on to the general public coercively by taxation. And if the destruction wrought were to surpass the boundaries of their own property and affect the property of others, then the full costs of compensation would be their responsibility as well.
If the owners of property that contain scarce economic resources fail to properly manage it and see to its continued utility, then they would be hurting themselves much more than they would be hurting anyone else. Assuming that their particular piece of property is not the sole source of the resource in question, then that persons inability to produce the materials for whatever demand that resource serves to supply -- in effect, their exit from the market -- will eventually result in opportunities for those who are better managers of the resource to expand their own operations.
In any case, I just can't imagine that many people, who had been such horrible managers of the resources they own, would be so stupid or stubborn as to have made an investment, ruin the profitability of that investment, and then insist on retaining the property to have it sit there desolate and barren (instead of selling it to someone else who may be able to revive and make further use of it).
"the potential judges and jurors in an anarcho-capitalist libertarian society wouldn't be anarcho-capitalist libertarians with views similar to those expressed by Lew Rockwell, one of the most prominent anarcho-capitalist libertarians around today. "
Kinda makes no sense, Wil. If the judges and jurors were people who held views anything like Lew Rockwell's, then they would be more likely than anyone to side with property owners in cases involving invasions of property rights.
I think Lew was just being facetious to make a point. I'm sure if Mr. Rockwell was a juror in a case concerning an oil company whose tanker dumped tons of oil onto privately-owned shoreline, then the oil company' attornies would do well to excuse Mr. Rockwell first during the preliminary jury selection process.
"I'm arguing that not all property should be owned by individuals."
Well, who gets to decide in what lands and resources do people have a right to own what they work to transform and make useful, and in what lands and resources they do not have that right?
If the government wants to preclude the utilization of particular land or resources for productive capacity, then fine; so long as the people realize that one of two outcomes are then going to result: 1) the people who manufacture the products that are derived from those particular resources will be pressured to step up production to fill the excess demand (meaning more stress on the same resources from other places), or if that's not possible, then 2) society will be made just that much poorer as a result; it would be precluding potential alleviation of scarcity; all the value that would have been produced otherwise is prevented from coming into existence; x amount of jobs, y amount of increased supply that would have resulted in a decrease of particular prices by a factor of z, will now not be allowed to happen.
If the government decides to take ownership of the land and the resources it contains, but to retain its use in productive capacity, then the eventual result will be the phenomena associated with the "Tragedy of the Commons." When the companies and contractors are not allowed property rights in the land and the resource itself, but only in what they are able to extract from it, then a bit of logical deduction would be sufficient to predict the results.
<<< "I probably would have asked you if you minded me using direct quotes from you as subject matter for one of my articles; but oh well." >>>
"I can't imagine why, but if that's the way you roll, it's no skin off my back."
I'm certainly glad the skin on your back is still intact, because I was kidding.
I mean, I would have asked you first, because that's just something I do before I remove a person's words from the context of the conversation they were placed in, and put them somewhere else; even though I do fully intend to make sure the full context of the conversation is accurately represented. Like you said; just the way I roll.
And you were perfectly honest in this article; I don't feel slighted in the least.
And I can't think of anyone who advocates what you call "Libertopia" (a place where everyone is free?) who believes anything as absurd as people "owning their words." I know Rothbard and Block both argued extensively against Trademark and Copyright laws, on the basis that people cannot truly have property rights over ideas.
But in fact there are endless examples of corporations who did exactly that...deforestation, hydraulic mining, strip mining, just to name a few.
The goal was SHORT TERM PROFITS, and they didn't care what happened to the land or adjoining neighbors or anybody else. They bought it cheap, ripped off their profits and thumbed their nose at everybody. I do not deny that this made perfect economic sense for them. In that sense, their actions are "responsible," I suppose, but clearly not in the long term interests of anyone, even including themselves. That does not stop the irrevocable damage, though.
And if the money they make through destroying their property makes it worth it for them, where exactly is the burden?
"And if the destruction wrought were to surpass the boundaries of their own property and affect the property of others, then the full costs of compensation would be their responsibility as well."
Right. In a Libertopian society where parents can't be held responsible for starving their own children to death, people will be held responsible for damaging other peoples' property. But exactly who's going to hold them responsible, and how?
"If the owners of property that contain scarce economic resources fail to properly manage it and see to its continued utility, then they would be hurting themselves much more than they would be hurting anyone else."
How do you know? If they use up the resources on one piece of property and move on to removing the resources from the next, while I (and the rest of the neighbors) are left living next to a contaminated moonscape that may well eventually kill us, who's to say the polluting land-owner is worse off than we are?
"In any case, I just can't imagine that many people, who had been such horrible managers of the resources they own, would be so stupid or stubborn as to have made an investment, ruin the profitability of that investment, and then insist on retaining the property to have it sit there desolate and barren (instead of selling it to someone else who may be able to revive and make further use of it)."
Because in Libertopia there aren't any stupid or stubborn people?
"I'm sure if Mr. Rockwell was a juror in a case concerning an oil company whose tanker dumped tons of oil onto privately-owned shoreline, then the oil company' attornies would do well to excuse Mr. Rockwell first during the preliminary jury selection process."
If the spill had happened in Libertopia, I can't even imagine why Exxon would've ever ended up in court over it, unless it was as a victim. According to Rockwell, the spill wasn't Exxon's fault, and they shouldn't have been held responsible in any way.
"Well, who gets to decide in what lands and resources do people have a right to own what they work to transform and make useful, and in what lands and resources they do not have that right?"
We do, Steve. We decide together. Just like back on our little island, you, Bob and I all agree that we'll all build our huts and our gardens on this side of the island, but we won't build or farm over there on that side of the island where the wetlands are. We'll hunt and fish, we'll harvest some of the naturally-growing plants, but we won't turn it into another farm.
Who, in Libertopia, gets to decide that 500 acres of forest isn't more "useful" than 2.7 trillion toothpicks? The owner of the land.
"I mean, I would have asked you first, because that's just something I do before I remove a person's words from the context of the conversation they were placed in, and put them somewhere else; even though I do fully intend to make sure the full context of the conversation is accurately represented. Like you said; just the way I roll."
Do you really? Didn't that make it hard to write essays back in high school? What did you do when you wanted to quote dead people?
"And you were perfectly honest in this article; I don't feel slighted in the least."
Glad to hear it. :)
"And I can't think of anyone who advocates what you call "Libertopia" (a place where everyone is free?) who believes anything as absurd as people "owning their words." I know Rothbard and Block both argued extensively against Trademark and Copyright laws, on the basis that people cannot truly have property rights over ideas."
But apparently not all libertarians agree with everything guys like Rothbard and Block say. I think that's one of the reasons why they're always arguing about who are the real libertarians and who are the poser libertarians. I mean hell, some libertarians don't even believe private ownership of natural resources, right? I've got a feeling there are some libertarians out there somewhere who believe it's their natural right to maintain absolute ownership of their words and ideas. But I'm happy to know that you aren't one of them, Steve. :)
Letting criminals out of prison gives freedom to them but takes away freedom (to walk the streets safely/peacefully) from masses of people. Look at what deregulation of banking has done to "our' economic system.
I think of libertarians as basically Republicans who want to do drugs. Frankly, there are so many reasons to not turn everything over to private industry, it could be the subject of a book, with multiple volumes. Let's not forget that one of our Presidential candidates wanted to privatize Social Security.
Thanks.
"I have long opposed turning over quality of life to the whims of private industry."
Me too.
"Libertarians often like to espouse themselves as simply desiring freedom for everyone, but one freedom often results in the loss of one or another freedom."
I guess it depends on what kind of libertarians you're talking about, Robert. The kind I'm generally talking about, the anarcho-capitalist types, tend to define freedom (or liberty) very narrowly. Essentially, they bring everything down to a matter of property rights. So while one anarcho-capitalist libertarians freedom to own and control a particular bit of property might very well result in the loss of others' freedom to own and control that same particular bit of property, I wouldn't have thought you'd have a problem with that. You're pretty big on the notion of locking the door behind you and killing anybody who tries to come through it, aren't you?
"Letting criminals out of prison gives freedom to them but takes away freedom (to walk the streets safely/peacefully) from masses of people."
I'm not aware of any libertarians, anarcho-capitalist or otherwise, who advocate opening the prisons and turning out all the criminals.
"Look at what deregulation of banking has done to "our' economic system."
Yeah, it's a real mess. But the anarcho-capitalists don't think banking has been deregulated. But then, they've never met a regulation they didn't hate, so anything less than completely unbridled capitalism just doesn't cut it for them.
"I think of libertarians as basically Republicans who want to do drugs."
LOL! Really? That's weird, because I've thought a lot of things about libertarians, but I've never thought anything like that.
"Frankly, there are so many reasons to not turn everything over to private industry, it could be the subject of a book, with multiple volumes. Let's not forget that one of our Presidential candidates wanted to privatize Social Security."
Again, I don't think the privatization of Social Security has much to do with anarcho-capitalist libertarians, although I have no doubt they want to see the end of what Rothbard described as "the biggest single racket in the entire panoply of welfare-state measures that have been fastened upon us by the New Deal and its successors."
Them anarcho-capitalist libertarians are hatin' them some Social Security and all that other welfare-state crap. They're much more comfortable in Libertopia, where people who've lived sensibly and saved money for their retirement live happily ever after, and those who didn't drop dead as unobtrusively as possible.
Thanks for your comment, Robert F. Protectionist.
one problem I see with your example of communalist grazing is that this system relies on a static population and acceptance of social restrictions that depend on a static culture. This may work for a time but much seems to depend on a lack of change; socially/culturally/and number wise. Its hard to find that in the late 20th century or today.
I consider myself a libertarian but have seldom been a fan of Rockwell. For me he tends more towards the extremist side of libertarianism. One thing I do agree, at least to a certain point however, is that private ownership tends to trump communal in the long run. Its hard to dispute the communalist record as not being a poor long term custodian unless one cites the absolute denial of resource use in sectors as a success. That doesn't mean there is not a place for such a program in certain circumstances but its hard to argue it is a better way than private ownership in most cases.