Ever write something you're really proud of and everyone is off bitching at some wingnut instead of reading real writing?

You know, Ron, those of us who came here for quality writing are in the minority now, and we are vilified. Today I saw this phrase used: "Literary Gestapo" - This obviously refers to anyone who points out a flaw in another's writing. Many of the best writers have left or are soon to leave. It's sad. I used to love this site. Too bad there cannot be two Gathers, one for writers, and one for people who just want to blog.
(I'll go read your other article now.)

It is sad the way the attention gets diverted to controversial subjects. Last week I wrote an article about the "hit lists" followed by "witch hunts" when I was flooded by forwarded emails. Neither article was great work, but I got hundreds of comments because I hit a nerve. I deleted both articles because people were flaming and fighting out of control. I deleted them because I think in hindsight people would not want the comments they made to be there forever. I've taken a lot of criticism both ways. I got criticized for writing the articles, then slammed for deleting them. Oh well, you've got to do whatever you think is right! So I can live with my decisions.

As for your work Ron, I've only read a few but liked them. I will check out more of them. I am trying to steer clear of controversy and stick to enjoying myself here on Gather from now on.

Ron,
Bravo!!!! I will merely echo Nancy, and apologize for missing your last piece.

Apologies, Ron -- I haven't been paying attention to any wingnuts, but I haven't paid attention to your new articles either, and I know that means I've missed some good stuff. I'll go read now.

Thank you all. Thank you much.

I don't know how I missed that article. I usually make a point of reading what you write. Well, I've read it now, and I'm glad. Maybe I missed it because I've been getting into Gather less and less often, and so much stuff gets posted that articles vanish into the depths very quickly.

I couldn't agree with you more, Ron. I'm sick of writing article after article that gets only a couple of comments, or maybe none, while garbage gets zillions of comments. I could write controversial slop too, but why bother? So I've been posting less and less often.

Does anyone know of a similar site for mature grownups who want to read thoughtful writing, maybe even with literary value? If so, please let the rest of us know! Gather started off with such promise, by being careful who I chose as connections I could find good things to read, but there seems to have been a drastic change and I've been thinking of leaving too.

Ron, I agree with you. There are many great writers on Gather who are constantly overlooked. This will continue until Gather makes some changes and sets up genres. Thank you for speaking out.

It does seem like the attention is often misplaced here. I try to keep a balance and read some of the good writers here. I've read some of your work and it is very good, Ron Hall. I also read the sensational articles and contribute to the point whoring. So, I wouldn't want you to think that I am pure of heart here but I will pay more attention to your work on Gather.

I checked out your piece, Ron. You clearly put a lot of thought and effort into it and it sets out some useful info for people who don't know it and are interested. But that's a small universe. Those folks should comment to thank you for your work, but beyond that, what else can they say?

Obviously the way gather is set up means that the "wingnut" gets more comments. (As a matter of principle I don't comment on that kind of rant.) And it is a small injustice that they get more points therefore more goodies than folks like you.

But I can't believe you're here for those goodies.

The (admittedly few) comments on your article not only express gratitude, but a few say specifically what it was you did right. That's gold for any writer. Plus you have at least three people there who you now know share your love of Jazz. Aren't these the real gather goodies?

I only mention this because I'm tired of good folks leaving gather because of the kind of problems you legitimately point out. I'd hate to hear that you'd gone too.

Oh, by the way. I love Jazz, and still I learned stuff from that piece. Thanks. (But does the jazz scale really lower those tones a whole tone or only a half?)

"Is it a place where obnoxious, hateful people get all the attention in the world, while someone who really tries to put something out there with content and heart gets very few responses if any?"

Yes.

"Is this what we want for Gather?"

No, but it seems to be going that way.

Surefire ways to get readers and points, if that's why you're here:

1. Amass 150 pages of connections.

2. Write an article about (or containing):

--abortion
--religion
--politics
--Gather ("glitches", "wars", thinly veiled accounts about people you don't like; the possibilities are endless!)
--leaving Gather
--returning to Gather
--your illness
--***GAMES***
--freebies!!!!
--a "poem" or "haiku" (what's with all the shitty haiku that's not even really haiku lately?)
--email forwards, especially glurge or urban myths. Elicit more sympathy and comments by passing it off as your very own.
--plagiarism (Who cares if it's someone's copyrighted material...I can't write so I'll steal from someone else and call it my own! My readers are too stupid to notice anyway!)
--something that doesn't make any sense at all, under the guise of "satire"
--jokes
--cut and paste recipes ("I haven't made it but it sounds good")
--Amber alerts
--GOOD MORNING!!!!

I add a solemn amen, so long as I never have to see (don't read anyway) any more threats to "leave Gather because...." I will promise to read every word you write, Ron...well, mebbe not EVERY word... but I keep trying. I may not comment but I am a drive by reader.

I have only been on Gather for a month and I agree with you. Sorry I have'nt checked out any of your other writing but I am getting ready too.

( )

Meryl, there are still places on Gather where civility and quality are valued. If I may direct you to the No Fighting, Whining and Putting Things Down group, I make a point of booting articles that invite fights, regardless of whether I agree with the subject matter or not. I'm hoping that can be a Gather within Gather. I'm sure there are plenty of other groups that ( )s would never bother to join.

Bongo, I too posted some controversial pieces, but I hope they all took some time to work out before just sitting down and typing.

June, I think the group idea was intended to separate folks into different areas of interest, but unless the group owner wants to moderate and reject articles (which is no fun at all) it becomes just another repository for whatever.

Joe, I'm hardly pure of heart either. But those who prentend to be pure of heart: 1) fail, and 2) miss 80% of the fun life has to offer.

Charles, oops. I do mean the blues scale lowers those notes one fret on the guitar, which if I am to understand you correctly, is a half tone. No, you're right I am not in it for the 12 cents per hour I've earned in points. Actually, if someone is looking for benefit in comments, it's in distracting us all into drivel, so that no real thinking goes on. I value Gather as a place where I can share what I know, and learn things, like a tone is two frets, not one : )

Janna, you've got the makings of an excellent post there. I purposely did not threaten to leave Gather, because: 1) it would have been a lie, and 2) it would have been classic point whoring. Is this post point whoring. Maybe.

Faith, there's nothing wrong with drive by readers. It is encouraging though to see even the smallest comment, like "Nice." Don't let me discourage you or pressure you. Heck, knowing you may have read something with no comments makes me feel better already.

Ron, unfortunately finding quality content here is becoming increasingly difficult. I am thinning my connections because a lot of them don't read my work and, worse, I don't like what they are posting. I've decided to concentrate on those who write with originality, creativity and aim to post a literate piece with proper use of language. I apologize for not leaving you more comments. Now that I am aware of your plight, I will pay more attention. Frankly, I've wasted too much of my time clicking on connections who are copying and pasting nonsense or plagiarizing. It's time for me to concentrate on quality. Thanks for waking me up!

Donna, I have two suggestions if you're looking for quality content:

1) When someone emails you and says "read this", do read it. You may be surprised. I believe there are a lot of writers that send those emails only when they feel they've done good.

2) Go to a writer's articles, and sort them by "Most ratings". If the most-rated articles tend to be in the 8.5 range and up, I think the writer deserves a closer look. If the typer's most rated articles are in the 4, 5 and 6 range, I believe the odds of finding slop there are pretty good. I will be posting on this hypothesis at some point . . .

Ron, I came here to Gather to write about music and travel and both of those articles have received very little attention or comments. I enjoyed your article and am usually searching for anything Music. I also read some of the ones that are full of comments and they are good, but I think Gather needs to find a way to seperate the blogs etc.., from the ones who are here to write and rate articles about difference subjects. Who knows maybe the Gather Correspondents will help that in some way. Thanks for mentioning me in your article and I can't wait to read more....

Twyla, welcome back. You made my day. Of course I'd want to honor that.

Ron, my method for finding content has actually evolved since I began on Gather. When I started here the best content was on the highest rated list. Now, I pass on the top 25 and look below and often find the best content there. I've found the same to be true with ratings. The majority of the "10" articles that I view are nothing more than jokes or copy/pasted things. Anything under that is generally the better reading. My other technique has been to follow the comments of an author I admire because it generally led me to better content. Unfortunately, most of the authors I followed have left the site and this in harder to do now.

Donna, I really like that idea of following the comments of a good writer. It reminds me of looking up works listed in the bibliography of a good book. I've certainly had good luck with that . . .

Okay, follow Faith's lead. It can't hurt to try, Kathleen. Thank you. Thanks for warning me about the American Idol thing, though.

Hey! Jake S. led me down that posey path... and I picked Taylor Hicks. so neener neener. (p.s. I'd never watched A.I. before and will likely never again)

Jake S. Taylor Hicks. Okay. I'm familiar with Jake. Taylor not so much.

Gee , now I can't remember how I got here , because you are not one of my connections . Maybe I will subsribe for a bit until I have time to figure out if I would enjoy your reading your stuff . I think it has been all said before, but Gather is a big place , room for all of us, although I wish the insulters would just stay away . I just tend to sift through all that is on here. And every month that passes I find some more that I like , and pass on the stuff that I don't . It is like the daily paper , I scan the headlines, and read what interests me . And oh I like to read new stuff once in awhile too, stretches my mind, and I make a few new friends along the way . Oh I just went over and read your article on Jazz , and thanks for the rave here. I learned something new over there .

Wendy, I've organized my first 12 months of Gather posts by topic, to make it easier for you to see if you like what I write. Go to this link, and scroll down to the index. Thank you again for your nice comments.

Good point, Ron. I have noticed that I expend far more energy on Gather Drama than I do seeking out quality writing. That is not a good thing, and I thank you for making me aware of the contradiction between my philosophy and my reality.

I apologize for not reading your jazz article, and I realize that this will out me as the philistine I am, but I simply cannot stand jazz. Even the word makes me cringe. Sorry.

I agree with Parke's first paragraph. I also have to admit to being guilty of the same ploy Bongo uses. If I can get some followers by publishing tripe, maybe they'll read some of my serious stuff. I also try to comment as much as I can so people will recognize me and maybe read me.

I apologize for not reading your article. I'll go there after I watch Ellen Degeneres.

Parke, if it's any consolation, most chocolate makes me gag. This too makes me a philistine : )

Both of you - no apologies are needed. I'm just another community member and I hardly expect all my connections to follow everything I write. My point is more that we (including I) get sidetracked by rewarding someone's offensive blather and thus miss out on things that might actually make the world a better place.

Ron, what everyone else said is correct. We are not connected, but I have enjoyed your work. The only thing around here you can change is your own reaction. Sadly.

Janna,

Better drop "politics" out of your list. I've written three articles, all about politics since that is a subject of interest and passion to me. The first article got three comments, the other two apparently weren't read! I just decided I must have forgotten my virtual underarm deodorant!

I too was looking to improve my writing and logic skills and I enjoy a good debate but I won't try to offend or insult just to get response!

Ron,
This is proof that substance does not garner attention. Only insults and whining will make the mundane come out and put their two cents in. It seems that it is too much trouble to enlighten but it is a pleasure to vomit words on a page.
Of course I mean no harm in this rant of mine. I just want Ron to gather more points.
I hope this helps.

I try to comment on everything except the hateful stuff, I just won't read it.

but it is impossible to comment on everything, so I concentrate more on the connections that are faithful to reading my work,

just the nature of the beast I guess

Joanne, thank you.

James, here's to you for keeping it above low blather.

Patrick, what you say about insults and whining getting comments. This article of mine is something of a whine. Another method people use is emailing their connections, asking for feedback. This gets varied feedback, mostly positive, about 10% vitriol, but some of the most respected Gather writers do it.

Carol, we can't read and comment on everything. You're not alone at all : )

Ron-we are not connected (yet) so I haven't read your article. I found this one because I try to read the "most read" articles sometime during the day. It is always hard to predict what will garner the most attention. It seems that the articles I work the hardest one, no one reads-and the easy ones generally get the attention. I don't try to figure it out.

Ya know.. I feel the same way.. I try not to put anyone down, I try to stay away from the games and the email forwards... I get enough of them in my email to read them here. I try to use Gather as it was meant to be used for. I have written mostly about my life experiences and a few rants myself. But I try to do it all in writing form the way it should be.

You've posted a lot of great articles in your time here. Thanks for taking the time to do so.

Sue - I should take my own advice here - when you put a lot of work into something, I suppose you need to satisfy yourself first. I can't deny support matters, and thus this post.

Trish, email forwards aren't very interesting to me either. I'd prefer something original. Games are remarkably successful, and as much as I avoid them, I respect others right to have some simple fun. It's the negativity and fighting words that get me.

Jenny, it's very nice for you to say that.

I'm not a jazz fan, so I may have just passed on it, I don't remember. All I can say is that if people used groups and connections better, that might not happen.
Going to "highest" "most" "etc." is not the way to find what you want in here folks, unless of course that is your thing.
There are groups that stay on topic and people should use them if looking for something special. There are also groups that everything is welcome and sometimes they are fun for hunt and peck searches. Articles that may be controversial, such as this one, seem to just reel people in; a by product of our current "Reality TV" mentality???? Beats me, but I know what you mean.
Perhaps the new format in here will help Ron. Thanks.

I might have mentioned that I found this by going through "Building a Better Gather" to see what was new.

James C. wrote: "Janna, Better drop "politics" out of your list. I've written three articles, all about politics since that is a subject of interest and passion to me. The first article got three comments, the other two apparently weren't read! I just decided I must have forgotten my virtual underarm deodorant!"

That's because you need to do Step 1 first ("Amass 150 pages of connections.").

"I too was looking to improve my writing and logic skills and I enjoy a good debate but I won't try to offend or insult just to get response."

There's your other problem.

Seriously--stick with it, read and comment on other intelligently-written pieces and you'll eventually build up a readership (unless all the intelligent people give up and leave).

Wow, John. An article of mine was accepted by the Building a Better Gather group? Interesting . . .

I don't know if this drew comments so much because it was controversial as much as I was sitting in the corner whining through a megaphone and people came to cheer me up.

Janna, I echo the "Amass 150 pages of connections" advice. As much as some may find that a bit calculating, I've started accepting every connection request and making a lot more than I used to. In short, I'll connect to just about anyone, and every now an then someone will get squirrelly and I'll disconnect. The more connections, the merrier.

I like the title, that's what drew me. Even if you write good stuff, you don't need a hundred people to tell you it is good for it to be good. So don't worry.

Ron, I understand your frustration because I experience it myself. I generally spend considerable time on what I post because I'm not a fast writer and I have often encountered problems doing the post process, such as losing material. It's frustrating, but I keep on because I think I have something to offer, and I enjoy the thinking I do while I write.

Why I may not comment on a good article.
-The topic isn't of interest to me.
-I don't have anything to say about the article or I don't have anything to add to what's been said.
-I'm too busy with other aspects of my life. When I get to my email, I'm faced with more articles than I have time for. I'm likely to select those of people who comment on my content.
-I'm writing an article and won't make progress if I spend time commenting.
-Recently, something apparently became garbled in my Gather settings, and for two weeks I was not receiving Gather email notifications. I had to change my email address. I spent a lot of time trying to figure out what was happening.

Why I comment on less-than-sparkling articles
-The poster has a problem or question and is genuinely looking for an answer for which I can offer insight.
-I see potential in the poster--not necessarily writing potential--and I want to encourage the person.
-I like the person.
-I like the photos in the article.

I feel a responsibility to check in on what my connections are doing if at all possible.

Ron Hall: "Janna, I echo the "Amass 150 pages of connections" advice. As much as some may find that a bit calculating, I've started accepting every connection request and making a lot more than I used to. In short, I'll connect to just about anyone, and every now an then someone will get squirrelly and I'll disconnect. The more connections, the merrier."

Actually, I was being sarcastic. How anyone could possibly keep up with the content of 3000 people is beyond me. If someone with that many connections requests to connect to me, I usually say "no thanks". A person with that many connections is not interested in "connecting" with and reading the content of that many people, they're interested in points and having a lot of people look at their stuff. I try to read most or all of the articles my connections publish (but I have less than one page of connections and maybe 4 pages of subscriptions and I've been here from the beginning!).

I'm here primarily to read and occasionally comment. Like Verie, I often read articles without leaving comments (in fact, I always read every article of Verie's and rarely comment or).

If I like someone's article or it's well written, I rate accordingly. I suppose if I had more time or thought I had something worthwhile to add (besides "Good job!"), I'd comment also. That's not always the case.

Sean, titles often draw me in, so I guess I've learned from others on that score.

Verie, I've always enjoyed your comments, and I fully respect your need to have a life : ) It could easily be observed I could do more commenting than I do; I think we all could, so I started the Recommending Other Gather Writers group.

I guess I did know you were being sarcastic, Janna. I don't have a tenth of those 3,000 - but I'm 10 away from that tenth and going strong. It's not my only way of networking but it's part of my mix. Balance, you know.

I'm happy you took the time to comment on my whiney rant, and I do thank you.

Ron, I was pulled away from my comment before I could complete it, so here's the rest of what I wanted to say.

The reasons I gave in my previous post for commenting and not commenting on articles-- especially loyalty, disinterest in the topic and lack of time--may partly explain why a "good" article isn't commented on and "bad" articles enjoy favor. Moreover, because good writers take their writing seriously, they may have less time to comment.

I troll for fresh content and incisive, creative writing outside the circle I know. Periodically, I look at new content and open articles on topics of interest to me. I also watch where people whose writing and intellect I benefit from are commenting and click on those articles. I never use a high rating as a guide because it is not a reliable indicator for what I'm interested in, but I sometimes peek in at an article with a very low rating, curious to see why it was rated so low.

I also have come to understand that most people wanting to connect to me are more interested in my comments on their material (aka their thoughts, their lives) than in what I write. Perhaps commenting is my greater strength.

Nevertheless, while I have author and content preferences, I find the disarray, the paradoxes, the slice of life that is Gather member interaction interesting, challenging, instructive and valuable to my understanding of people, life, culture. It also gives the snobbish viewpoints I may develop a reality check.

Verie, I really do appreciate the thought you've put into the topic. That single comment has more content than the original post, and for that I thank you.

One thing I don't do much is look for content by searching on tags related to my interests. I should do more of that.

As the owner of a dozen groups, it's an important goal to check out the articles posted there. I particularly want to find those who post quality to those groups and acknowledge it by featuring it within the group. This is much easier to do in the Colorado group or the No Fighting Whining or Putting Things Down group than for the Nonconformists Group (which gets a lot of traffic, some of it not so nice).

At the present time then, featuring content is a major way for me to show appreciation for others' work. I've been doing more commenting and less writing also.

It is indeed hard to find time to comment a lot because every comment assumes the article was read. I'm a slow and contemplative reader, so that really limits what I can read. I can read aloud at full conversation pace, but that doesn't mean I'm thinking about the words . . .