Are Our Troops Committed To The Iraq Effort

Semper Fi to Gunny Burghardt and all the other Marines over there...

"Democrat pols like Kerry, Kennedy, Durbin, Murtha and Pelosi call [military personnel] murderers, rapists and terrorists."

Not your words, Ben Simonton, I assume, although you did not mark the end of the quote.

I missed hearing those words by the five people. Durbin spoke against torture tactics at Gitmo that have now been outlawed by a revision in the new Army manual--was that the reference for him? Would you please provide links to all the statements, so I can review them. Thanks!

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14696296/

Dave, those were my words, not from the article. Durbin called them Nazis as I recall. The words attributed to Dems were ones I heard them say on TV. Kerry's words, used for years ever since his Vietnam experience, have been quoted all over the internet so his will be easy to find if you are looking for a source.

Best regards, Ben
Author "Leading People to be Highly Motivated and Committed"

"These are the kind of people who are protecting us and taking the fight to the terrorists."

That is undoubtedly true, however Iraq had nothing whatsoever to do with 9/11 or al qaeda, and even now, only a tiny minority of what our soldiers face are foreign fighters or considered to be "terrorists." Somewhere between 2%-8% or so, seems to be the percentage of total foreign fighters believed to be there, and most of them are not "terrorists."



"These are the people most Democrat pols like Kerry, Kennedy, Durbin, Murtha and Pelosi call murderers, rapists and terrorists. "

Some of our soldiers HAVE murdered, raped, and terrorized the innocent population of Iraq. That is a known fact. War does horrific things to people's minds, which is yet another reason why Bush and his illegal band of murderous thugs in office must be put on trial.



"Durbin called them Nazis as I recall. "

The soldiers at Gitmo and Abu Ghraib DID behave like the gestapo. There was absolutely nothing respectful, respectable, decent, worthy, patriotic, American, Christian, or even human about what those soldiers did to those mostly innocent men, women, and children.

Not to mention how much damage they caused to our efforts there, and how much more at risk they made their fellow soldiers by their their horrific and cruel actions.

Imagine, for a moment, if it were not Bush/CheneyCorp., Inc. that was condoning and supporting these dispicable crimes against humanity, but Kerry, Kennedy, or Durbin. Imagine, if you will, that instead of condemning these anti-American actions, these men had gone public to SUPPORT them, as have the Bushco crime family members.

What kind of outrage (and this time, rightfully so) would hypocrites like Ben here have towards that? You'd never hear the end of it. In fact, they'd probably have been thrown out of office by their collegues, let alone the public demanding floggings.

Instead, it is Bushco, inc., that openly supports and encourages torture, rape, and abuse, and any democrat who "dares" speak out against what is clearly wrong on many levels, is condemned.

Whatever happened to our nation's soul? When did right become wrong and wrong become right? When did people like Ben become so immersed in falsehoods and wrongful ideals that they literally turned their backs on everything that's ever made America great, and began villifying those who stood to defend those ideals? When did we become a nation of sniveling, whining cowards who will condone and support ANYTHING, lawful or not, American or not, right or wrong, just so that they can pathetically cling to some false, frail rhetoric of "national security?"

What the hell is wrong with this country that people even exist who think like Ben? What foul, evil disease has crept amongst us and captured the minds, hearts, and souls of what otherwise might be perfectly fine individuals, and twisted them into utter bastions of hatred, intolerance, and contempt for all that is morally, ethically, and spiritually right?

I weep for my country when I see comments like this from people like Ben, frankly. These people have lost all sense of right and wrong, because nothing on earth matters to them except blind, unwavering devotion to their failed ideology. It's really, really sad, and terribly frightening as well.




"Kerry's words, used for years ever since his Vietnam experience, have been quoted all over the internet so his will be easy to find if you are looking for a source.
"

Thank God, Kerry stepped forth to denounce what was another WRONG war at the WRONG time. God only knows how many brave American soldier's lives he saved by bringing an end to that disastrous war long before it may have been ended without his words.

What were Bush's words while he was AWOL during Vietnam, at the same time that Kerry was being shot at and serving heroically?

Thanks for contributing your normal, Clark. What would we do without it?

Osama states that Iraq is the central battleground of his war against us, but we know that Democrats and Clark don't agree. Anyone who votes for Democrats is approving that kind of flawed vision, the kind of vision that claims our armed forces are terrorizing women and children in Iraq.

Thanks again, Clark.

Best regards, Ben
Author "Leading People to be Highly Motivated and Committed"

"Osama states that Iraq is the central battleground of his war against us"

A) Iraq had NOTHING to do with either 9/11 or al qaeda prior to Bush's illegal invasion and occupation

B) Only a tiny percentage of the insurgency is comprised of foreign fighters, and an even smaller percentage of those are considered to be tied to terror groups.

C) Nothing that Bush's best friend, Osama, says justifies our soldiers raping, torturing, and abusing innocent Iraqi's, nor any citizen in this country excusing such abhorent, unAmerican behavior.

D) Where is Bush's best pal, btw?




"Anyone who votes for Democrats is approving that kind of flawed vision, the kind of vision that claims our armed forces are terrorizing women and children in Iraq."

It is GOP flawed vision that misled this nation into a costly, endless, meaningless, unnecessary, illegal war for profit in Iraq in the first place, and it is GOP failed policy there that continues to make things worse, both for our soldiers and for innocent Iraqis. Want more needless death and suffering of American soldiers and Iraqi's? Vote for "more of the same." Want a change for the better, and REAL national security? Vote democratic. Simple.

Thanks, Ben. You never fail to display for all just how wrong and dangerous the failed GOP agenda of death, destruction, disease, and deficit has become.

Clark: Loosen the turban!

He has become absolutely brain dead Ben. I swear he sleeps with headphones hard-wired to Al-Jazeera.

The Gop has saved your sorry whinning self so you can denigrate everything right about this nation and you are so lost it is almost pitiful, but instead you sit in your mothers basement tying away like a moral, high priest of humanity; pity for you fails to describe the result of your tripe. On and On with the same lies and Soros crapola citing borderline sanity cesspool blogs for authority. Fail to see anything except the black you choose to grow in like a mushroom, with all the environmental benefits to boot.

Clark, you fail all tests of rationality with this last post. Osama is buried under a pile of rocks from a bomb, or the earthquake. If not, he is buried in a pile of s**t, much like yourself, because the US is on his ass.

You are so ignorant of any facts to believe like Dr. Dean and ilk, to think for a minute that capturing that beast is an end to the evil he has set in force. But, al-Jazeera told you so.

You really are a comic book character, the 40 year old virgin role.

You never fail to point out the lost parrots of the Soros wing and lunatics of the Chomsky-ites. You all should just call yourself's 'deadheads'.

You are the failed agenda, but you're all safe to spout your tiresome loathing of this great nation because you do not have to take any responsibilit., And STILL fail to offer any concrete evidence of anything coherent.

I can hear Lincoln now. "I'll get with you all after the elections to present my plan to get us out of this civil war." (0ver 600,000 lost).

Would not fly then, should not fly now.

A lot easier to play a sniper on the internet, right big guy? And so self-rightous. A simple little wind-up internet troll is what you have as a claim to fame Clarky.

I support the troops that serve our country. I honor those who have served, regardless of the conflict and regardless of whether I support the decisions that created or shaped the conflict in the first place. I know that many who served in Viet Nam were treated shabbily when they returned to the states. I believe today that veteran's benefits should be strengthened. Medical care and disability are tantamount to a huge embarrassment in many cases right now.

Those who do not serve honorably should not be seen as representing those who do. I do not see them that way. There should be no confusion about this.

Grate, even for you that post was, well, weak at best. Even in its role as ad hominem attack it lacked the panache I usually look for in your posts.

"[Y]ou can denigrate everything right about this nation." I cannot find, in Clark's comments, attacks on what is right in the country. I'm (almost) sure that you do not mean rape or murder by uniformed US military.

There was a lot of anger in the posts by Clark. I have not looked into your souls, Ben or Grate, and so I cannot speak to Clark's evaluation of you personally. On the outrage over torture and other unspeakable acts done in the name of the US, I stand with Clark.

On the documented support for torture emanating from Alberto Gonzales and Dick Cheney, the implicit support provided by George Bush through his promotion of Gonzales and refusal to disavow the statements by Cheney, and sponsoring of the raft of procedures newly outlawed in the Army manual, I share Clark's contempt and grief over what our nation has lost.

Flame away, boys. I don't expect you to provide support for your "position," since there is none.

I wonder if Clark believes half the stuff he puts out there.
According to Clark:

9/11 -Caused by Bush (not Al Qaeda)
Terrorist in the Middle East – American Soldiers
2004 election- Stolen by Bush
Yesterday when he stubbed his toe – Caused by Bush

Mickey b. -

I don't find these statements by Clark in this thread:

9/11 -Caused by Bush (not Al Qaeda)
2004 election- Stolen by Bush
Yesterday when he stubbed his toe – Caused by Bush

On the remaining "charge," you have quoted Clark out of context, which makes whatever "point" you were attempting misleading and essentially meaningless:

Terrorist in the Middle East – American Soldiers

I understand Clark's anger as expressed in this thread. I don't sign on to everything he says, and I will, of course let him speak for himself. But is this really the best YOU can do?

Dave,

You say that you are outraged by torture and unspeakable acts. That means that you are outraged at our troops.

I am not outraged at our troops. I am not because in any group of humans there are always a few who commit unspeakable acts. But the acts of a very few do not in any way tarnish the good done by the other members. I do not believe that you are justified in being outraged at our troops or to characterize them as murderers and as terrorizing women and children as Senator Kerry and other Dems have done.

I would be outraged at the bosses if they were not doing their best to investigate ancase and court-martial those suspected of crimes. But the military has not been unwilling to do so and have not run coverups. Their actions have been as good as any very large bureaucracy in ferreting out their bad actors, possibly better but never perfect and always somewhat slower than we would like. Adequate.

So I am not outraged in any way about Abu Gharib or Gtmo or Haditha or others. If you call what we did at Abu Gharib or GTMO torture or unspeakable acts, I do not believe that you know what torture is. There was never infliction of intense pain (as from burning, crushing, or wounding) Webster's. There was certainly some humiliation and tactics short of physical damage designed to cause the prisoners to provide information which would save American lives. These prisoners are real killers and torturers.

If you want to know what torture is I have a few classmates who spent time in North Vietnam and one friend who had command of PUEBLO and was entertained by the North Koreans. They related to me their experiences such as being beaten by 2x4s on a daily basis. That is torture. Being nude and forced into odd poses is not torture. It may be considered demeaning, but it is certainly not torture.

I am outraged by the torture routinely used by Saddam against his people. I am outraged by the terrorists blowing up women and children. I see nothing to justify being outraged at our troops. Any politician who calls us Nazis for what we are doing in GTMO is either mentally deranged or just telling lies to further a personal agenda.

I am outraged by those who call our troops or the their bosses terrorists, murderers, torturers and terrorists of women and children.

I don't know what your agenda is Dave, but I will assume for the time being that you speak from a position of ignorance and are not a politician.

Best regards, Ben
Author "Leading People to be Highly Motivated and Committed"

Well Ben, you have gone over the hill here. I have respect for your intelligence (at least I did) and I can excuse senility, but there is no excuse for such selective short sighted thinking where a man of your experience, supposed-intelligence, and purported standing as a 'leader', gets 'behind' the GOP falsification's of, and creating out of context portions of real news stories ... then using such in the name of 'your' truth. Just a perfect example of the no spin SPIN of the favorite leader of you all ... FOX.

People like Clark and others come up with true and damning evidence, and you folks denigrate and deny, accusing him of what you all are so infamous for ... how dense can you get to call the other side the nasty things that apply only to your type. You all may be fooling yourselves that accusing others of your worst faults is working ... but real people can see the truth of it.

I have had a theory that given enough rope, idiots will eventually hang themselves ... it appears that you folks are nearing the end of your rope.

"[T]he acts of a very few do not in any way tarnish the good done by the other members."

That is a reasonably good paraphrase of what I said earlier. Therefore your rhetorical leap to suggest that I do, indeed, blame all troops for the acts of a few does not hold water. Sorry, Ben, I'm not buying.

I find quiet satisfaction over the investigation of heinous crimes unseemly. Human nature would lead to outrage over acts like rape. Since you brought up the investigations, oh my God, Ben. Abu Gharib took almost half a year to "surface." I cannot speak to the adequacy of the investigations since then, Ben.

Defining torture: I am willing to accept definitions provided by authoritative independent bodies and the Army manual as now written for proscribed procedures. By those definitions, our sitting Vice President advocates torture. Ben, time does not allow me here to get into an extended pissing contest about what is torture. Read the manuals, ok?

"I am outraged by the torture routinely used by Saddam against his people. I am outraged by the terrorists blowing up women and children."

I agree with you 100%, Ben.

"I see nothing to justify being outraged at our troops."

There's that rhetorical leap, again, Ben. You have to watch those. There is a difference between those that serve honorably and those very few that commit crimes while in uniform. Oh, we both said that, didn't we?

Relative to Durbin's statement, for which he apologized, I don't defend Durbin for his choice of words. His constancy in seeking review of conditions at Gitmo, followed by the new regulations--his actions, in other words, speak louder than the words. Here's a quick review of what he said. I'm sure you'll find it enjoyable, as do many right-wing bloggers:

--------------
Durbin had prefaced his remarks, delivered June 14 on the Senate floor, by noting that for two years he had sought congressional hearings on the treatment of detainees. Then he cited an FBI account of how Guantanamo prisoners had been chained to their cells in extreme temperatures and deprived of food and water.

"If I read this to you and did not tell you that it was an FBI agent describing what Americans had done to prisoners in their control, you would most certainly believe this must have been done by Nazis, Soviets in their gulags, or some mad regime -- Pol Pot or others -- that had no concern for human beings," Durbin said. "Sadly, that is not the case. This was the action of Americans in the treatment of their prisoners."
---------------------
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/21/AR2005062101654.html

I sense the outrage he felt at these revelations after two years of trying to provide some of the leadership this country desperately needs. Did I mention that I do not defend his choice of words?

As far as the ad hominem attack, "ignorance," blah blah blah--when you run out of reason and arguments, best to close your remarks. Your "case" isn't any more attractive with that effluent running over it.

"I don't find these statements by Clark in this thread:

9/11 -Caused by Bush (not Al Qaeda)
2004 election- Stolen by Bush"

David,

Clark is a Prolific political contributor to gather. If you are familiar w/ his work you would recognized the above statements.

To use your quote:

"is this really the best YOU can do?"

Mickey b. - I just thought that maybe there was something on-topic, you know, IN THIS THREAD, that you might have wanted to comment on. No harm, no foul. Have a good day.

Only one comment in response, Dave, as most of your response provided nothing new.

The Army manual does not define what is not torture. It defines what methods are allowed.

The whole uproar was nothing more than an attempt to embarass the military for political gain. One minute the administration was in error to define what conduct should be considered acceptable under the Geneva Convention, how dare they change the Convention. The next minute everyone is accepting a set of rules doing exactly that. All a matter of politics, not substance.

The same was true of Abu Gharib.

Best regards, Ben
Author "Leading People to be Highly Motivated and Committed"

You're right, Ben. The leadership crisis is NOT limited only to the President and his cabinet.

The lack of substance from this Congress with its well-earned "do-nothing" reputation, is trumped only by its acquiescence in Constitutionally questionable, Bill of Rights-crushing legislation as a disappointment to millions of Americans. Thank goodness Americans are waking up to the mess that Clark so stridently illustrated in his posts.

"The whole uproar was nothing more than an attempt to embarass the military for political gain."

Could you explain this further? Are you equating the President, in his role as Commander in Chief, as "the military" in this statement?

SEMPER FI to the "Gunny," and to you as well, Ben. Thanks for this excellent post.