I am a Canadian Conservative, & I worry that our Party has been infiltrated by the "bad aspects" of our Party, as seems to be obvious in the USA.
First of all, I am a Salesman & I am very "pro business". When I lived in Vancouver, I could not believe the people who had the attitude where "We have Mountains, Trees, Fresh Air & We don't Care" when it came to business. One of the biggest ports in North America they have & yet no friggin industry! Banking on fishing & trees... they have no diversive economy at all, except for Tourism & I personally find that insane.
When I operated with other Salesman in Vancouver, they took me aside "right away" & told me to loose the suit & the tie & the "Ontario Attitude", as in Vancouver they don't do that. They don't want that "go go go" attitude!
It took me 5 years of living there before I began to understand this attitude, which I thought of as insane. The people there would vote in the NDP (New Democratic Party which is Socialist, pro Union & more or less the Mob, in my mind), or the Liberals at best, which is another party that really is way too protectionist for my liking. The Liberals were the ones who came up with the "National Energy Policy" which basically put the economy of the West back 30 years, when the rest of the Country was already in a recession! They kicked out the American developers & put 100s of thousands out of work! For what? Just to scream "mine mine mine" when they could have given tax breaks as incentives for Canadian Companies, but still let the Americans develop?
Just as I see the protectionist ideas in the USA being really dumb, I think if the better person can make the mousetrap better... let him! If someone is willing to do a job that most people in your Country will not do, for less wages, from another Country... let him!
Therefore, you will find, that I am very much a Conservative thinker, until it comes to violence & war! That is where I draw the line. Not only do I know that you can get more bees with honey than vinegar, but I know you get nothing but "hate & resentment" from force. I know that those who have their minds changed against their will, are of the same opinion still, & in business when you do that, it gives your industry a black mark. Whether it be with the BBB, or just in the community. The most powerful advertising is "word of mouth"!
Therefore, I have a hard time with "Conservatives" who throw all of these things learned in Business "to the wind" when dealing with people, as they do in the Middle East. I don't find it a Republican stance to "force people into submission", nor do I find it Republican to judge morality or their personal religion, or beliefs. I draw the line there & find that too many Conservatives get painted with that same kind of brush, when that idea makes absolutely no sense in true Conservatism!
The people of the Middle East had Israel shoved down their throats already too many times & they have battled them for 2000 years. The UN recently judged that Saddam's torture techniques were not as bad as the ones employed by the USA & Israel both! Not hard to compare, as the USA is utilizing the same techniques as Israel has used for years.
You simply do not gain anything by making a population hate you! Nothing at all! The situation in Iraq is a total farce! The Government the USA has set up for them has been infiltrated by the exact same people that they are fighting against. The police (militias, backed up by Iran) simply now use their badges to enter homes, drag people to the street & murder them as they desire. That is the situation now, & it will be for centuries!
It should not be hard to understand either, if you go back to the USA Civil War & analyze what happened when the North took over the South. At first the Southerners were exploited for their land & treated badly by the North, but once the North withdrew & allowed the South to run themselves, total anarchy broke out!
The same people who were running the Government in the daytime, were putting on their KKK robes at night! Lynchings were regularly tolerated & segregation was the norm. It took well over a century to bring the South out of that kind of thinking, yet for some people today, they can see where that "even today" that still exists!
As with the Katrina disaster, if the city hit was New York or Boston, I doubt you would see such a slow response, as in New Orleans. Being Conservative in the USA has seemed to evolve into a "Black vs White" thing, as much as the "we are better than you are" attitude can be pushed by a party that are not thinking very hard with their "Conservative Hat's on", if they want to be pro-business, anti-big Government, & growth based on the economy. These same bad aspects of Conservatism (which I say is not) are employed in such places as Iraq. The ideas never have worked, never do work & do not make any sense anywhere for a party of business!
Therefore, when you ask if I am Conservative, I say I certainly am, but a "true Conservative" that does not like the "Bible Thumping, War Mongering, Prejudice" party that it has been developed to be. I find those aspects of the party to be obtuse to either party & something that should be shunned & minimized.
You should not have to be a Democrat, to want to get the Troops out of Iraq! You should only need to be sane! You should not need a piano to fall on your head to clue in either & see that Bush & his (axis of evil) Cheney, Rumsfeld & Rice, have lied to you just as any worst criminal would & they worse, have been successful in getting some people, even of their own party to swallow such crap!
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Comments: 110
most american conservatives don't consider canadians to be conservative at all, even if they are canadian conservatives. you're just not socially conservative enough. you know they think they want things a certain way because they think everyone will be better off. they just need to follow the rules.
my grandfather grew up in canada. we found out recently that he was born in the united states, but he always thought he was born in canada. and i learned something about the canadian point of view from him.
other than that, i just don't know how else to explain it. i'm a moderate republican, which means that i'm a dissident republican at this point. i don't agree with all of your points, but i think they are well-thought out and it would really be nice to have some discussion of them.
I might suggest that your Grandfather wanted to become Republican. To give you a little explanation as to what the Canadian Conservatives are all about, you might find them quite in tune with the USA.
They are called the "Tories" & they were the Conservative part of American Politics (for the most part) that escaped to Canada during your War of Independence. They were British Loyalists, believing in expanding business, along with the economy & better relations with the USA.
At the time, & pre WWII, Canada had more trade with Britain than the USA. 85% actually, the same amount we have now with the USA. Things have merely flipped, from being best friends with Britain, to being that with the USA.
Yet in the designing of Canada, we took two different roads after WWII. During the war, Canada had a larger Navy, Air force & Army than that of the USA. The USA had mainly turned over to industry while Canada was more into farming & agriculture, mining & fishing.
After WWII, we decided as a Nation, that we no longer wanted to be an aggressive force in any way. Instead we would turn more internally, looking after our own economy & civilizing our Country to that of one of more security.
The USA, on the other hand, took over the aggressive role & allowed prejudice & segregation to run rampant. Being "patriotic first" was more important than education & learning of other cultures. Both Countries became protectionist, although in the USA, the protectionist ideas were differently based.
When it came to development, Americans were willing to "take all they could" from their land, where Canada was a little more reformed. That is something I actually don't like. I personally find it insane for instance when the Federal Government refuses to allow British Columbia to sell fresh water to California! Water evaporates & will rain right back into Canada. I doubt you would change the whole ecosystem of the planet or even the Continent by selling water to California!
Yet there is a "vast difference" in the attitude of peoples all throughout the World when they see an American & a Canadian standing side by side. We both look the same, but one of us is judged as evil.
That is precisely the reason why many Americans travel, claiming to be Canadians & carrying Canadian flags. Canadians are thought of all over the World as "sane Peacemakers" where Americans are thought of as "Oppressive WarMongerers", as it is shown with the issue of Iraq.
Bush demanded that all Countries either be for him or against him when he went into Iraq, which certainly put Canada into a position (being their best friend & all).
Yet when we tabled the evidence on the WMD's & looked at the history of the USA & their dealings with Saddam, along with Vietnam, Cuba etc. , we were forced to say "Where's the Beef"?
No Beef? Then once again, we are not going to blindly follow the USA into this insane war, just so they can flex their muscle again! 911 affected us too, as now we all have to live under higher security. Now the USA is pushing for passports! That certainly throws most of "free trade" out of the window, now doesn't it?
The GOP in the USA clearly lied to the American people to get them into Iraq. They do it to their own people, as they do with people from other Countries. The GOP of the USA cannot be trusted by any Country of the World, but Canada still has a pretty good running record for doing what we say.
The good aspects of the Americans are what we need & would like to exploit. Business, investment, good ol' American guts to try, are some of the things we see them as better on & we have hopes we can adopt.
Yet we will not sell our soul to the Devil. That is what happens, in my mind, when you back people like G.W. Bush.
Allen of course is filling us with his vast knowledge "as usual" & there is no need for a response to him.
Guess I don't sound like much of a conservative - but I am. I want people to have the freedoms guaranteed in our Constitution, and for the government to stay out of our lives except to do the things they are supposed to do, like build roads and protect us from criminals.
Agreed on Iraq. It's been a disaster! We were hoodwinked into that quagmire! Enough said on that subject........
You also said,
"Just as I see the protectionist ideas in the USA being really dumb, I think if the better person can make the mousetrap better... let him! If someone is willing to do a job that most people in your Country will not do, for less wages, from another Country... let him!"
I'm a conservative also -- and a traditional American conservative at that. However, I really don't claim to know very much about the Canadian brand of conservativism, but I can tell you that free global trade and totally open borders to undercut American workers are both policies that are beyond liberal and crossing the line into radicalism by American standards. Just because Bush, calls himself a conservative Republican doesn't make him conservative if he actually supports such things as open borders, free trade, huge deficits, reckless spending, irresponsible tax cuts, a North American Union, etc.,..
Another thing about free trade:
Of course you realize that America fought a Civil War, circa 1861-65. We might have freed the slaves in the process but it wasn't a humanitarian war. It was all about economics. The northern states were having trouble competing with southern industries who were undercutting the north by using slave labor. Result? Civil war resulting in an end to slavery. Now, fast forward to America circa 2006........
For nearly 20 years America has been shifting it's industrial base overseas, mainly to China. Unfortunately China is a communist country and, by definition as well as in practice, all Chinese workers are slaves. The irony of the situation is that we fought a war to end slavery during the 1860's only to allow ourselves to become totally dependent on China, a slave empire, for all of our manufactured goods, while destroying the financial lives of millions of American workers in the process.
Where's the morality in that? Does that seem conservative to you?
In the Fedaralist Papers, Alexander Hamilton forced a system of high tariffs on our economy in order to insure that America never became dependant on hostile foreign nations to supply us with basic necessities! FDR was the first to attempt to reverse our protectionist Hamiltonian trade policy, and post WWII globalism totally destroyed our tariff protections..........
Hamiltonianism! Now, that's real conservatism! However stupid America circa 2006 continues to trade bombs for Barbie Dolls and, in the process, we run up a yearly $800+ trade deficite; much of it with a country who's openly planning a war against us! A financial collapse is a certainty when China finally stops sending us hard goods in exchange for our rapidly depreciating and valueless paper dollars. It's just a matter of time before the free trade Ponzi Scheme finally blows up in our faces!
That's why protectionism and nationalism are both conservative and smart, fair, policy!
You said
"The UN recently judged that Saddam's torture techniques were not as bad as the ones employed by the USA & Israel both! Not hard to compare, as the USA is utilizing the same techniques as Israel has used for years."
So, in your estimation the U.S. uses torture techniques which are worse than Saddam's? Even our worst enemies know that to be a gigantic, bald-faced lie, so far from the truth to be laughable. But a Canadian who wants us all to respect his ability to reason?
WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Best regards, Ben
Author "Leading People to be Highly Motivated and Committed"
Best regards, Ben
Author "Leading People to be Highly Motivated and Committed"
Good post.
Now Denver;
I certainly appreciate your fear of China & have to agree with you on most of it. When I speak of "Free Trade" I am speaking of on this Continent. To be competitive, we have to combat the EU.
The EU's system is very popular, & many Countries are bidding to become part of it. It makes a lot of sense too, to be able to travel to any Country in the EU, work, live & pay taxes to that Country. It even puts up a little competition between Countries, which I think is healthy.
It also gives the individual lot's more freedom. Freedom to travel where you are comfortable in the region & not forced to be a part of where you were simply born. It sure makes travel & vacationing easier too.
As far as security goes, it sure would cost a lot less & be way more secure if all 3 Countries in this Continent only had 1 border to protect. The bottom part of Mexico. It seems to be well proven that you cannot stop the Immigration of people anyway, & the cost of even trying is outrageous! You can no more seal up such a large border with Mexico than get a vast amount of Americans to get to move there! Never mind Canada, as that is simply impossible & ludicrous to even think of!
As for being protectionist, when Free Trade came into being, a lot of large Companies moved to Mexico, to take advantage of the cheap labor. However when faced with the working skills & education of the populace, they were mostly forced to move back.
No matter what product you make, 2/3 of your cost is transportation. Therefore having a business or factory centered in the USA just makes more sense.
Now I know that one of our biggest companies in Canada (The Hudsons Bay Company) moved it's head office to Hong Kong. When asked, they said that the Chinese market made more sense, as here in Canada, they were selling mostly replacement items, & parts, where in China, they could sell brand new goods!
Right now, it is cheaper to use their labor, as starving people are willing to do almost anything to eat. Yet as they get food, the next thing they want is TV's & cars etc. Who will supply the technology? Who will supply the Natural Resources?
Now that is one thing that North Americans do not quite understand. Most of the reason why we are the richest, is that we are also richest in Natural Resources & superior for the most part in Education. That is something I doubt will change. I have no problem competing with someone from China in business as a Canadian Salesman, as I am for the most part, better educated than most of them, or Mexicans etc. I also know that we have what they don't. Oil & coal that they desperately wish to buy to get their infrastructure up & running.
Now when you really think about it, if you are selling mousetraps, would you rather sell them at a higher price to 300,000,000 people or at a lower price to Billions? Which would be more profitable? Any good economist would pick the latter.
I think we should be expanding on Free Trade in this Continent, if only to make life easier for all, even if you take out being competitive with the EU. Just transportation costs alone & consumer demand will keep our Continent up & running, but the more isolationist we become, the smaller we become, as they will grow in China, with or without us.
What happened in China is that they opened up to the free market "all of a sudden". They see now how much a better lifestyle they can have doing that will make them. They will continue, with or without us.
Now I agree with an extra tax for China to get our goods & natural resources, as until they trade fairly, they should not get the same kinds of breaks we give to Countries on our own Continent. Yet we cannot be isolationist. That will not work.
Certainly we have everything we need here in North America. There is nothing we are in need of, from food, to oil, to minerals, to educated people. I simply think we have a better team.
You can change with the times, or you can become insignificant. We will always have enough to look after ourselves, but if we want to compete against the EU, & China, we had better get all our ducks lined up! Our ducks include the wealth of all 3 Countries being Canada, USA & Mexico. Eventually everyone will settle & pay taxes in the Country they feel comfortable in.
I really think you have no worries of all Canadians moving to the USA or even all Mexicans doing that. I think you might even find an equal amount of moving from all 3 Countries to each others, as we set different standards & laws & compete against one another. It can only make us stronger & safer too!
If not, why would you quote something you didn't believe?
Best regards, Ben
Author "Leading People to be Highly Motivated and Committed"
During WWII, the Germans fought to the last man quite more often when fighting against Russia, but surrendered quickly to to the Allies. Why? Simply because they knew they would be treated with respect.
Therefore that alone should show a fighting force to be smarter to not use torture tactics. It allows you to get masses to surrender when faced with insurmountable odds.
Countries who use torture are simply Barbaric & I don't really care who uses the worst! Anyone that does is wrong! The UN says the USA is worse. That just shows the World that the USA is worse than what they are supposed to be fighting against.
Best regards
Author "Leading People to be Highly Motivated and Committed"
If you don't believe the UN on that, then you should not believe the UN should have put sanctions on Saddam either, nor should they have given the USA the right to kick him out of Kuwait. You can't have your cake & eat it too. Yet like I said... I don't care... Torture is wrong!
Thanks for clearing that whole 'Conservative' question up for me. Now I see a bigger picture.
Here in America we'd call you a social Liberal, business Conservative, foreign policy isolationist.
With 2 Leftist parties and only one Centrist party, I can see how you'd think the way you obviously do. I ran into some of that when I lived in Vancouver. The 'tree hugger' mentality was amusing, and I chuckled at their Global Political naivete frequently...........but stayed quiet.
We here in Canada concentrate on just North America normally & we have gernerally a better lifestyle than that of the USA. I therefore do not think it is a bad idea. Possibly Americans could learn from us.
Oh I learned plenty when I lived in Vancouver. It's a gorgeous town with lots to do. I lived right in Coal Harbor overlooking Stanley Park, so I was right in the middle of everything.
One thing I did not like was the attitude of "Oh, let the Americans handle that"..............which I also encountered when I lived in Mexico City. I guess when you have a powerful neighbor like us, you can have that kind of behavior.
When we don't cause crap outside of our Country & basically leave other Countries alone, we don't get terrorists smashing planes into buildings!
But great response and a great article.
I know I will be proved right in the end, & 6 months from now they can come back & read what they said & what I said & I won't be so pompass to say "see"... yet they will simply fade away. I am only trying to make sense for those who are not so sure.
You have an attitude like that because we make life easier. Not just for Canada, but for lots of countries around the world. We're great because we're not afraid to do the heavy lifting...........even if everyone else stands around and watches us.
My grandfather used to say that if you aren't upsetting a few folks now and then, you're just another sheep doing nothing.
We do great things, James, because we shake things up. Why do you think everyone in the world wants to come here?
Even a few of the terrorists wanted to stay and live here.
That's a pretty strong endorsement for America when your enemy doesn't want to go back to his home, but instead wants to live in the land of the Great Satan....lol.
It must be very comforting to Canadian's to have America as a neighbor. It's very easy to say you don't crap outside of your country - you simply leave others to their own will. Just pretend for a moment that America was not around and Western democracies 'minded their own biz'. Imagine a world filled with Saddam's and like minded 'leaders'. Imaging the nuclear proliferation. I wonder what Kuwait would be like if we minded our own biz. Anyways, it's laughable and I think you can imagine all that would happen if it were not for America keeping the truely savage dictators at bay.
Regarding the topic at hand, I don't know if I qualify as a real conservative, but I did vote for Bush twice, and I did believe that going into Iraq and removing Saddam was a good idea. It has turned out to be far more difficult to transition the government than many had thought, but I think we need to stay and finish. We should increase the troops substantially. Right now we're playing wack-a-mole... we need to have overwhelming boots on the ground and stop the escalating violence.
Exactly!
If it wasn't for the USA, I could live in Canada in security & not have do deal with such high security. There would have been no 911 & we would not have our troops dieing in Afghanistan. <=== A lost war, allowing the Taliban to restore the Government & admitting that it was a "dumb idea" in the first place!
I just saw a glowing report on CNN last night about the NATO handoff going on in Afghanistan. 3 big victories in recent weeks against large, heavily armed Taliban in Helmand province. Something like 2500 Taliban dead, and only 23 NATO dead. Over 100 to 1 ratio.
Sounds like the momentum has shifted back to us. At these numbers, the Taliban is going down fast.
..............and the U.S. just shifted 8000 troops directly over to the 'quarantining' of Baghdad during Ramadan. Should be interesting to see how that plays out, now that we have big numbers there.
I've been watching and listening, and there is no one saying the Taliban will be brought back. Karzai's government would never allow that.
General David Richards, NATO commander of Eastern Afghanistan certainly doesn't seem to like the Taliban "Nobody, be it Taliban or a drug lord will appreciate very much if he sees forces coming in and chasing him out and reprieving him of his very lucrative whatever activity he might be engaged in."
NATO should be considerably more effective than Coalition Forces, which were playing a defensive role. NATO forces are actively engaging the Taliban and other militias inside Southern Afghanistan. With 3 recent huge wins lately, they are definitely defeating the Taliban on their home turf.
Just to validate the logic here -
If the Taliban were being courted by anyone - NATO, Karzai, the Coalition, or whomever - then why would NATO forces be concentrating on rooting out the Taliban in their home bases of Helmand and Kandahar?
If you wanted them to join you, wouldn't you leave them alone?
Gen. David Richards is the biggest anti-Taliban guy in Afghanistan. He's the one who came up with the idea to lead the troops into Taliban-rich Southern Afghanistan. He has said nothing like what you're reporting. He just said on BBC radio yesterday that the Taliban are weak and will be defeated before the end of the year, by NATO combined troops.
Bret;
The war is lost in the Middle East & the biggest thing they are playing out is the Millions of Dollars they have set up for a Victory Party, taken out of the Defence Budget, although no Victory is in sight!
We earmark money for that kinda stuff in every war. Just another morale booster, that most of us think our troops deserve.
In the liberal mindset, America can't win ever. Nothing is good enough.
No, you're not a liar. You simply don't know anything about history - especially American military history.
I've been watching CNN all day............nothing about a NATO general.
However, I saw a great article about Vets for Freedom. Ex-Iraq war veterans who are in favor of helping the Iraqis get on their feet before we leave. Good article.
http://www.vetsforfreedom.org/
I was mislead by Bret. I started with saying "The Head General of NATO said..." & Bret threw out a name & I went along with it. That's all that happened, as Bret is on a constant move to try to trap me & make me look silly, yet the premise remains the same. The War is lost in Afghanistan & it already is lost in Iraq, but bullheaded people will not admit it yet.
Col. Brett Boudreau was asking for 2000 more troops. That was what you were referring to.
As for Iraq, we are in the middle of a war... it's not over yet, and it won't be over till we put a stop to the insurgents and Iraq can take handle the security of their nation.
If you were in charge of the Studebaker Car, & someone asked you how sales were going, would you not say... "We think we might need to make some changes, but overall we believe in our Company"?
If you were the President of Cuba & about to die, would you not say "Cuba has made many successful triumphs in the face of Oppression"?
If you were Hitler, would you not say "They can take our Country, but they will not change our minds"!?
If someone is getting paid to say the right things & they say that "There is No Military Solution to this Conflict in Afghanistan... only a Political one"... do you not think he is already admitting failure?
If not... keep your head in the sand Don... because you will be shown to be mislead.
I am not intending to trap you.
You just constantly stick your foot in your mouth.
You don't check your facts, and you don't know boo about history. When I say something you don't like, or you think isn't accurate, just Google it. You'll see that I have backup.
In fact, I want you to check on my facts.
You might learn a little history as we talk.
If there was a General from NATO who said "let's give up, its hopeless", do you think that General would be leading NATO for very long?
Your premise is defeatism. It just doesn't fly with the noble goals that NATO has in Afghanistan. Especially now, in the wake of 3 victorious offensives lately in Kandahar and Helmand provinces.
To you, Saddam in power is better than what we have now. To hell with Iraqis - let them live under the brutal dicatorship with mass graves. Let Saddam do with his billions as he sees fit.
I hear you. The Loud Left is purporting to support the troops, but not the mission. A really lame premise.
Meanwhile, NATO is kicking the Taliban's ass.
Now these very same Lefties want us to withdraw from Iraq and re-deploy to freakin' Darfur. The hypocrisy and shamelessness of the Left has no boundaries.
Iraq & Afghanistan are a waist of time & money & we could be dealing with other things like "Global Warming" than killing innocent people to get to the ones that might be responsible for 911!
"This idea of failure is coming from the left."?
When did the left become in control of the inept prosecution of the war in Iraq? The idea of failure comes from the failure, nowhere else. Read the news, watch the TV, read the blogs, We just abandoned Anbar province, a whole province!, to the insurgents so we could shift our troops to the capital. The military says it needs 13 billion dollars, just to repair vital hardware. Shortages of equipment are determining mission selection and execution. We are now taking felons and gang members, 40 year olds, etc. to meet recruiting goals, and the left is the reason for the appearance of failure? You guys are really out there on that one. No one has to try to promote the appearance of failure, for a bonafide failure. Obviously the White House isn't the only bastion of denial.
Good Post! WTF were you when I was battleing them before? Sheesh! Yep another nail on the head from my friend Ron!
As for Bret and his friend, WWI & II had a meaning. We were attacked by other countries. in this situation, we were not. It was a group not a country. can you not tell the difference.
Even though Hussein done what he done to his own people, it had nothing to do with us. Afghanistan is a different story. Bin Laden was hiding there. I don't know why this is so hard to figure out.
When did the left become in control of the inept prosecution of the war in Iraq? The idea of failure comes from the failure, nowhere else. Read the news, watch the TV, read the blogs, We just abandoned Anbar province, a whole province!, to the insurgents so we could shift our troops to the capital. The military says it needs 13 billion dollars, just to repair vital hardware. Shortages of equipment are determining mission selection and execution. We are now taking felons and gang members, 40 year olds, etc. to meet recruiting goals, and the left is the reason for the appearance of failure? You guys are really out there on that one. No one has to try to promote the appearance of failure, for a bonafide failure. Obviously the White House isn't the only bastion of denial.
Ron –
That was the funniest post you've put up yet.
The "failure" you speak of, only exists in the minds of the Left. Undermining absolutely everything Mr. Bush has tried to do is definitely the "cause celebre" lately.
I knew we were having trouble in al-Anbar, but I think I'd need to see a link from you about us 'giving up' an entire province.
The military needs funding? Nothing new there. It costs money to run a war.
You : "We are now taking felons and gang members, 40 year olds, etc. to meet recruiting goals"
Me : Say what? That is hilarious.
Are you aware that the military has had a record number of re-ups this year?
35 is the highest age for recruits for Afghanistan and Iraq recruits. Felons? Nope, they aren't eligible.
Chris, I haven't killed anyone. However, I support the troops in Iraq that are killing terrorists.
As for Bret and his friend, WWI & II had a meaning. We were attacked by other countries. in this situation, we were not. It was a group not a country. can you not tell the difference.
Chris, America was not attacked in WWI, but we definitely helped get rid of a bunch of tyrants……………just like we're doing in the Middle East now.
The group you are referring to, Al-Qaeda, has had its ass kicked militarily, especially lately.
Even though Hussein done what he done to his own people, it had nothing to do with us. Afghanistan is a different story. Bin Laden was hiding there. I don't know why this is so hard to figure out.
Hussein did what he did to his own people, so we should just avert our eyes, right? That is the lamest BS I've heard yet.
I think your logic is not in keeping with the American way of helping countries who can't help themselves. Mr. Bush made a mistake about the WMDs in Iraq. But it did give us a chance to get rid of a guy who had tormented his own people for 35 years.
Think or check before you post. The military has seriously lowered standards to achieve recruitment numbers. Felons, Gang members, etc. ARE being taken, some right out of jail. Do a search, don't take my word for it. And the failure is obvious to anyone. It's certainly obvious to all but the most faithful Bush devotee. They went in without enough planning or people, and they're trying to stop a full blown civil war, at this point. Anbar was hoovered for troops to go to Baghdad. It's no wonder you don't see the failure, when you haven't even kept up with what's going on over there or over here.
Also, come off the high horse on the morality of Saddam. We created him, he was a bad man, he treated his people bad, but no worse than a steady line of tyrants we have supported. And like I said, we did support him, and I know you know that. Come back to ground. Quit flogging a dead horse and let's get our kids home while there are some to bring back. I'm not arguing with you here, but it's time your boys got a break. Time they were brought home, or at least pulled back to a less dangerous ready point. Right now they're in an impossible situation between Shiite and Sunni, and foreign jihadists, just serving as a target for them all. It's time to find a way to end this mess. At least to start toward that goal.
How can that be possible? Most people would ask if that was not a fallacy in itself! Smart does not equal Bush... even for people on his side! He was recently talking about his "No Child Left Behind" cause, which he cut all the funding for, & seeing it as some big accomplishment!
Any moron can watch the news & see that Iraq is a lost cause & Afghanistan has gone as far as to join the other side!
So smart "aren't ya" Bush!
His Daddy does not wanna read books that say stuff bad about his son. A "true Republican"... yep this is Conservative = Stupid!
This is not Republican or Conservative folks! Let's call a coin a coin shall we? Republican does not mean War & Conservative does not mean "Let those friggin ni**ers die in the floods of New Orleans" cause the Christian Right just wants everyone to know that Jesus died on the Cross for us & did not have drill holes going through his entire body including his brain!
Um rendition makes so much sense, cause we got so much info & stopped World Terrorism today, but nobody has figured out how to pay the Mexican Border Guards & bring in a Nuclear Bomb to the USA yet on the back of a "Flatbed Truck"!
If you do not think it is going to happen, then you are just as dumb as Bush!
Yet Len opened up my mind to what is really going on! This thing in Afghanistan is about a Pipeline of Oil to get to the Persian Gulf & the whole trip is "World Domination"!
If you control the Oil fields, you control the war when it comes to be as the West meets the East!
Has anybody ever thought of the "Leave Them Alone" scenario? Oh I bet they have!
The freaks will say... "If we let them win this time, they they will do as they have shown to do with the COLE & the other situations, that they will just keep doing it & if we do not eradicate them now... we will end up with more trouble in the future!"
Yet you don't seem to get it do you freaks? Those things like the USS COLE were just little pricks for the "drill holes" they will put into the body of the USA if you do not get out of their region!
Even Pipers could not help you now! You have pushed the "Cant come back from here" button & unless you withdraw from the region, you have "how many Troops"?
We are talking about MILLIONS of pissed off people here against a force of "HOW MANY"?
People so pissed that they bring insurgents from every surrounding Country to battle the mighty USA & they know they did not die in vain! They gave up their lives as suicide bombers to make a point & are going to ALLAH!
Virgins included!
Sure better than living under the thumb of some frigging Country over the seas that want to tell them how to run their culture & Christianize all of them! They would rather die first!
Can you understand that? I might die now for my children to survive? Maybe not if you have not got the trip on "Global Warming"... yet for them it makes a TON OF SENSE!
I'm surprised you missed the news on that pipeline. If I had known, I would have told you. It was in the papers. The rest of that, ummmm,....I'll pass on.
I took a different approach to the situation we face. I hope you won't mind if I leave a link to an article that attempts to part the veil that colors so much thinking.
Neosheep; The New Breed of Followers
I hope you don't mind but I would like to quote a piece of it here:
I hate to get mean about politics. It usually isn't necessary or productive, but things have gone too far in this country. We are drifting perilously close to the abyss of fascism, and it's time to take the gloves off.
There is a fantasy world. It lives in the minds of many Americans, planted there by propaganda from the current Administration. In this fantasy, "we" are saving the world, from itself, in spite of itself. "We" are the good guys, in a dark and dangerous Chaos. Yes,"we" are peaceful and helpful, and merely wish to spread our loving ways to the far-flung corners of this godforsaken globe. "We" are misunderstood champions of justice, unwavering in our determination to set all mankind free of the lies and hatred of bad guys.
"We" are so concerned with tranquility that we are willing to break many eggs to generate a great omelette of civilized democratic stability. It's going to be messy, even a bit revolting at times, but soon, maybe not real soon, the world will love us for it. And they will be sorry they ever doubted us. In that wonderful future world, America will stride as a giant among all those little nations, resplendent in it's cloak of many colors, and proud of the children she has reluctantly shown the error of their ways.
it is ignornt people like you who is trying to sugarcoat what is real. Buddy i am an american and don't you ever question it. this blasted war is wrong, what those troops are fighting for is wrong. Laws are being passed that we can't even walk down the damn street for godsakes. people, american people are being detained because the government thinks they are terrorist. that buddy i know first hand is true.
You keep thinking that this whole thing is for the greater good. When it happens to you, i don't want to see you on foxnews, or cnn saying i was treated wrong. it's not hard to figure out. back in the day, those countris were trying to take over the world. This is a group that is sick and tired of america getting in their business.
and i'm tired of you playing sides of the fence. One minute you say that we are liberating one country, and in the same sentence you say what goes on in another country is not our business.
next, gang members are being recruited. i don't know how many gang members would would cop a plea deal by enlisting in the military. Drug dealers also. So fella the laugh is on you. You sit back in your big business office reading the newspaper and talking to whomever and you don't have a clue what is going on in your own country.
My suggestion to you is, get out with your local local police officer and ride around around with them for awhile and you will see for yourself the chaos that is going on around you. you didn't realized because you you are in the bed sleeping while those guys are keeping you safe.......GGGRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!
I like what you have to say & I love it that you are backing me up! Yet can I make 2 suggestions on your future posts?
Everything you say is "right on the mark" but you need to do a "spellcheck" before you post & each sentence begins with a Capital Letter For instance:
next, gang members are being recruited. i don't know how many gang members would would cop a plea deal by enlisting in the military. Drug dealers also. So fella the laugh is on you. You sit back in your big business office reading the newspaper and talking to whomever and you don't have a clue what is going on in your own country.
Next needs a Capital letter. You are right on the money, but I want you to have creditability, so I tell you about this. Notice how I did a spellcheck & fixed the mistakes.
Your post is otherwise very relevant to the issue! Good Job!
Chris is "a Democrat or a Republican"? Possibly just sane?
Bret you cannot call yourself sane unless you put an "in" in frornt of it! These Wars in Iraq are only gaining less creditability for the US Government than the Billions that could be spent in other directions.
Chris;
No Problem bud. Just helping you along.
I back whoever is against the Saddams, the Talibans, the Osama bin-Ladens, the Al-Qaedas, and all the other vermin of the World. I'm glad we're taking them on in their own home countries, so that we in America don't have to deal with them. Weakening them there is a brilliant tactic that keeps us safe, here.
Ron – I already answered your absurd post about lowering military standards, on another thread. You have no proof, as there is none out there, anywhere. Just talk to any military recruiter and they'll straighten you right out.
James – listening to your rants about New Orleans and virgins and yet another Oil "Conspiracy", makes me truly think you're drinking that Kool-Aid Nancy Pelosi is dispensing to the masses. Do you ever sit back and read what you've written? Your oil pipeline Conspiracy has been debunked already, along with the whole ridiculous notion of "Oil for Blood". This sounds like how the Salem Witch Trials began………….with a bunch of nutty and stupid accusations that never held water.
i want to respond to Bret. Just because i don't support this war, does not mean i'm not an american. Who are you to question that.
First of all, try writing in complete sentences.
Second, I reviewed all my postings. I never called you un-American………you did, above.
it is ignornt people like you who is trying to sugarcoat what is real. Buddy i am an american and don't you ever question it. this blasted war is wrong, what those troops are fighting for is wrong. Laws are being passed that we can't even walk down the damn street for godsakes. people, american people are being detained because the government thinks they are terrorist. that buddy i know first hand is true.
What laws do not allow you to walk down the street, Chris?
What American citizens have been detained just on a whim?
You know people first hand that are terrorists? Or were you implying something else?
You keep thinking that this whole thing is for the greater good. When it happens to you, i don't want to see you on foxnews, or cnn saying i was treated wrong. it's not hard to figure out. back in the day, those countris were trying to take over the world. This is a group that is sick and tired of america getting in their business.
I do think our current wars are for the greater good. Do you think we should have Saddam back in Iraq? That would be the opposite view of what has happened there.
What countries were trying to take over the world "back in the day", Chris?
and i'm tired of you playing sides of the fence. One minute you say that we are liberating one country, and in the same sentence you say what goes on in another country is not our business.
I play only one side of the fence, as you put it. Our side. I'm for America, not for the terrorists. Can you say that? What you have written really doesn't make your position clear.
next, gang members are being recruited. i don't know how many gang members would would cop a plea deal by enlisting in the military. Drug dealers also. So fella the laugh is on you. You sit back in your big business office reading the newspaper and talking to whomever and you don't have a clue what is going on in your own country.
Send me a link to the source of your misguided belief that gang members or drug dealers are being RECRUITED into the U.S. military. I'd love to see any proof you can offer. I suspect you'll offer no proof.
My suggestion to you is, get out with your local local police officer and ride around around with them for awhile and you will see for yourself the chaos that is going on around you. you didn't realized because you you are in the bed sleeping while those guys are keeping you safe.......GGGRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!
Chris, my office is right across the street from the police station, and I am in the CPD reserve. I patrol at least once every couple of weeks. Do you?
Quit being an idiot for a second & stop pointing fingers when 3 fingers are pointed back right at you!
I can bring a nuclear weapon into the USA right friggin now if I had one! So friggin easy is it to do that! Through Mexico, or by simply sending a "container" into any port in the USA, or in a canoe from Canada just about anywhere!
The Kennedy's made all their money from "Rum Running" during Prohibition importing liquor from Canada to the USA! It is so easy to penetrate your borders with a friggin bomb!
Why has it not been done yet? I have no friggin idea, but if you keep pissing people off... all over the World... don't hold your breath, as it might be today!
James, these guys are are pathetic losers who are just pissed off because they can't diddle little boys.
Bret/Don and the other Macho Men, the Village People are no longer around. Instead of touching your sister, pick-up a magazine, newspaper or book and you'll find out that there is are "real" world out here outside of the one in your ass.
And guys, stop calling yourself Americans because you are embarrassing me in front of my Canadian friend here. Shouldn't you be shooting up a schoolhouse or your coworkers at the post office?
If you all have such a passion for your Fuhrer Heir Bush Jr., go fight for him and his corporate Fascists cause and but please leave this country so we can get back on track in leading the world community by example instead of like a bunch of rednecks.
How about getting serious about how easy it is to get a Nuclear Bomb into the USA if you don't stop prancing around saying you are so much better than everyone else & trying to control people huh?
First of all, the American military is tough. It's unfortunate that such a large number of American citizens are so weak and easily distracted. You know it, so do I. It's a damn shame we have to be the ones to take out the trash after no one else in the world has the guts to lead this War against the terrorists. I have family members over there in Iraq and I don't think they're there to "show their cocks", as you put it. There are a lot of us here who know their mission is an honorable one. If you hate Mr. Bush then just say it, but don't hate us because we know in our hearts that the mission is the correct one.
Your comments about diddling little boys, and calling Mr. Bush the Fuhrer shows how un-serious you really are. You're just another hater, coming on Gather to spew his venom in a drive-by hater attack.
So why has no one detonated a nuclear bomb in the U.S. yet? Could it be a lot tougher than you think?
I'm not inferring that we're "better" than any other country. I wouldn't do that because that's a very subjective point.
I'm just pointing out that we have a strong military, and a strong financial base, and a strong civic base. Stronger than most. And much more able to handle the criticisms that go along with all that power.
As I said... don't hold your breath because since the USA has got it's nose in everyone else's business... I guarantee you it is coming!
Not likely. This entire country has been holding its breath since 9/11 and nothing. Everyone is happy about that.
To be a xenophobe is not in our nature.
Dude, I can appreciate the fact that you have a deep love for the troops and that you can articulate a sentence, but one of the many factors to why we are in the mess today is because of a total incapability to understand the "World."
Our poor excuse for a President (I know you hate it, I'm sorry for "spewing" venom since you are the holder of what is venom or not) had never picked up a newspaper or has never stepped foot out of this country. Although this xenophobia not one makes, he and his crew are definitely closed-minded. But this administration has set the level of fear for his "terrorists" so high...what else would you call it? Pre-emptive reasoning? Just being careful? I need the votes? Give daddy the keys?
Bret, your illogic is laughable: "why haven't we had a nuclear bomb detonate here?" I guess if I was a sheep for Clinton I would have asked right before 9/11 "how come the Twin Towers haven't been attacked in the last four years."
The statements you make are as arrogant as mine and just as ridiculous as Bush Jr. telling the 'enemy' "bring it on."
Your arrogance and the rest of the neosheep here only point to one outcome that you might understand too if you read...that we following the footsteps of all great world powers and we are fading because of the kind of arrogance and ignorance that you are displaying.
I pray we get nuked, but that it cleans America out. Maybe I should be in that mix but I know that definitely your Texan-hillbilly mentality should definitely be on the schedule for immediate irradication.
Whatever they should be called, when are these guys going to grow a pair. They get on here and talk all tough but then they are hurt if anyone goes against their leader.
If I had any balls myself, I would offer online counseling for these sensitive types and make a fortune. But for now, Brett, if you'd like a hug...
Me: Try the Patriot Act, Bret. Wiretapping, Bret. What I know about the people being questioned, sorry I can't say.
Bret: Send me a link to the source of your misguided belief that gang members or drug dealers are being RECRUITED into the U.S. military. I'd love to see any proof you can offer. I suspect you'll offer no proof.
Crhis - here's several, Bret :
http://www.iowavoice.com/index.php?/archives/1956-Gangs-In-The-Military.html
http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,96056,00.html?ESRC=eb.nl
OH, Here is video for ya, Bret: http://www.kfoxtv.com/news/7978035/detail.html
Here is another video for ya, Bret. Make sure you take this one back to your Police Department, the real officers need to know this. This is what the real police is fighting, not some reservist:
http://www.militaryspot.com/videos/video72.htm
Sorry James, I had to put this one up.
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2004/08/30/soldiers_040830.html
http://www.army.com/news/item/1875
http://www.nbc17.com/military/4228063/detail.html
Do I need to go on about this. Oh yeah, I specialize in gang activity. Would you like to see my training credentials? Don't ever challenge me when it comes to law enforcement.
Bret: First of all, try writing in complete sentences.
Me: No comment on that. That's what happen when people like you piss me off. Especially when they don't know anyng about their own streets.
Bret: I do think our current wars are for the greater good. Do you think we should have Saddam back in Iraq?
Me: Only when you do it the right way. Didn't your department teach you about doing things to right? I'm sure they did or you would not have mentioned anything about being a reservist. That's probably a good thing.
Bret: I play only one side of the fence, as you put it. Our side. I'm for America, not for the terrorists.
Me: Your an american when it suits your personal gain. You're a big business man right? Rest my case.
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2004/08/30/soldiers_040830.html
But check this one out too.
http://www.militaryspot.com/videos/video72.htm
The world is definitely adapting at a fast pace………….but not in the Middle East or other seriously backward areas. Most of the Middle East hasn't developed beyond the 1700's, by their own choice. By the historical reckoning, we understand our world a lot better than the vast majority.
I am quite happy that our President is single-minded about Iraq. His single-mindedness makes the accusations of Mr. Bush lying incompatible with the known facts. He does not have the xenophobia that most of the Middle East has.
Pre-emptive reasoning…………about what?
I state only the humbling facts, whether you think they're arrogant or not doesn't change anything. You and the other Defeat-o-Crats should be thanking Mr. Bush for providing 5 attack-free years in the U.S. Apparently all the extra security in the country has worked.
We're far from fading……..lol.
You pray we get nuked? Are you sure you're an American?
Anyway, being a conservative means that we don't invade and we don't act like a bunch of women. Many have called Bush Jr. a cowboy or John Wayne. However, no American cowboy or John Wayne would ever do the cowardly acts that our "president" has committed.
You probably think you insulted me with the Defeat-o-Crat comment and I'm sure you think you are stating facts, but once again, you've proven that you are incredulous.
The Marines and the Army didn't want me, or at least in the field. The Air Force did but I chose to serve politically. I helped with the local campaign for Dana Rohrbacher, an outstanding Republican, and George Bush Sr. Bush Jr. would come around the office but he was a complete joke and you fell for it. We'd always ask ourselves how Sr. would hide his son during the campaign because he was a horrible man and unpresidential. He didn't change.
I am a Goldwater/Reagan Republican and none of these great men would ever condone the actions you are crowing about. This isn't a school playground and a school playground abhores a bully.
Instead of being a bunch of women and bitching about my friend in Canada, here. Listen to his point of view. He is not from this country and has a different and valid persepective. Not to mention, you have to understand how are neighboring countries feel about our arrogance. It's like me. I'm Republican and part of the United States, but I have a president and war-mongering followers who are draining my treasury and inflamming the world against us. It's like being in a car with a women who won't shut her mouth and then the guy gets beat up for it.
And since you are so quick with the reasoning and the fact, then get it right, genius. I pray we are nuked to get rid of the Bushiites. That makes me the greatest American around.
The Patriot Act doesn't stop you from walking down the street – neither does the NSA wiretapping program………..unless you're talking to someone from Al-Qaeda overseas. Then you will be in trouble.
Chris, like I said a few posts ago, there are people of every type in the military. However, none of your sources said that there was any active recruiting of gang members or drug dealers. Doesn't that sound a little far-fetched to you? If not, you're not thinking clearly.
From the military.com article you sent me :
"We're looking at a million-plus people in the Army," he said. "Any suggestion that this is rampant, we just don't see that." Grey acknowledged that there are gang members in the military, but he said their presence has not become a problem.
Chris, if you're a cop, you're a loudmouthed cop. That will get you killed. I hope you know when to keep your pie-hole closed on the streets. I'll pray that you do.
Its not that our Liberal friends are ignorant, its just that they know so much that isn't so - Ronald Reagan
Unlike you, you hide behind a desk and the police department across the street. No wonder you feel the way you do. You rely on others to keep you safe. BTW, I don't need your prayers, save them for yourself.
As for for my pie-hole, it is force to be recogned with. Besides, you asked for proof and you got it. I can't help it you are nieve.
Back off! Now I am talking to you Chris & Diego too! We are not getting anywhere with "name calling"! Simply you are trying to make sense here & you bring up very valid points!
Yet when you resort to "Name Calling" you are showing your vulnerability! Let's just be smart shall we?
Now Bret is not the only person in America with this idea & at least the guy has a brain! I don't agree with him at all, as you don't, but we are not better because we can call someone a "Poopy Head" ok?
Now Bret... let us say you are having a fight with your wife & your neighbor comes in with a 45 Automatic & points it at your head. Would you be more concerned with finishing the fight with your wife? Or be more concerned with the gun at your head?
Simply, your fight with the Middle East is pissing off the entire World & it is coming to a point where someone is gonna shoot you in the head! You had better back off because you are not going to win this argument!
N. Korea just did a Nuclear Test & that fucker will sell the tech to the highest bidder, make no mistake about it! It might be the Taliban or Al Qaeda or someone else that is pissed at you, but do not feel secure because you have not been attacked yet "to your knowledge"!
Bush has control of the Media! Just like when Japan sent over Balloon Bombs to the USA that went off... the Government did not allow that shit to get published! Yet it happened!
Remember 3 Years ago the blackout of the Eastern Seaboard? What did they call that? A lightning strike?
Remember SARS? Like people from Hong Kong only travel to Toronto & not New York City right?
If a bus gets blown up in the town you are in, I can almost guarantee you that it will not be reported on CNN!
You cannot hide the "Twin Towers" though & your response is to make it worse? Whatever they were pissed off at in the beginning, you want to do more of?
You have a President sitting in a sandbox yelling "I am not talkin to you" & demanding the other boy leave his pail & shovel behind when he leaves & then he might talk to him later!
The guy is an idiot! Along with his (Axis of Evil) & they have pushed the envelope too far!
Who is going to launch the first Nuclear Strike Bret? Will it be them or us?
Now if I wanted to stop North Korea right now, I might just send a Nuclear Bomb into the center of that Country & kill everyone in it, including that dumb President! Yet that Nuclear cloud would fly all over the World & kill everyone in its wake!
In case you have not looked at a World Map lately, North Korea is on the same Latitude as the USA... so that bomb would kill you too!
So you want to make the first strike? Your dead. Continue pissing people off & they make the first strike? Your dead! Either way you are dead!
Now what I want to do, is to get you to get a clue about this without insulting you! Just think! If someone was killing all your friends & you knew somebody with a bomb that would take them all out... would you not use it?
Either way... they do it or you do it... your dead!
Now that is why Diego is saying he hopes they have a Nuclear Strike in the USA, because no matter what we say... you still cannot get it can you? One bomb! Your dead!
Now in case you did not know, there are 5 "suitcase sized" Nuclear Bombs missing from Russia right now & any one of them could take out all of New York! Nobody knows where they are, but I can bet you they are on the Black Market!
Now even if you do not want to believe that, then believe that North Korea will sell the tech to any one of those Muther Fu**ers because they just want the Money!
Now Bret, you cannot be dumb enough not to know that people are pissed at America & they can now get the weapon they want to use against the USA if they have the money.
Stop pissing people off!
YOU are the most un-policeman like alleged policeman I've ever heard. Sounds like another dubious claim.
I'm around police a lot.............and you sound like the guys they apprehend. LOL
Your Conspiracy Theories are becoming tiresome. Blackouts, SARS, the Twin Towers............James, are you really claiming that Mr. Bush controls all the media? How? What about foreign owned media? How would he control that? Do you ever look outside the comments that you make? No one person has that much control.............there are just too many people to have to control. It just isn't possible. I mean, as much as you hate Mr. Bush, he isn't exactly Doctor Evil.....LOL.
Mr. Bush is far from an idiot. There just isn't anyone else who will stand up to the terrorists. I don't know if you get to America often or not, but at least half the country still likes him, even though he is term-limited now.
James – nobody here is talking about a nuclear strike on North Korea………..in fact, I have seen nothing on TV suggesting anything close to that? Are you just hallucinating again?
In case you don't know, we've done nothing to North Korea. Are you going to make some outrageous claim that we have? The Korean war ended in 1953, and we really haven't had a lot of contact with them since. So why would we have anything to do with them except maybe negotiations over their new nukes? We're in 6 party talks with them already. Not much more to say on that issue.
Send me the link on the 5 suitcase sized nuclear bombs……….I'd like to read about it.
You're right, I don't understand why anyone would want to set off a nuclear device these days. No one has done that in years, so I question why Diego or anyone else would want that. It just doesn't make sense.
I suppose our existence probably pisses off a lot of people, James. Not much we can do about that, except keep on being successful. If some folks hate that – its their problem, not ours.
I hope you can appreciate the fact that I live in this country along with this current Macho way of thinking. And it really is not so Macho.
However, my retaliation does not help paint a better pic