There are millions of undocumented workers in this country who came here for nothing more than an opportunity to work hard and find security for themselves and their families.
American companies have a lot of responsibility here as they have profited from this and have turned a blind eye to the law.
The logistics and expense of repatriating the undocumented is prohibitive. The idea is unethical and cruel.
Many who do come here illegally have children who are considered naturalized American citizens. Would it be fair to these children to be uprooted or to be separated from their families?
Undocumented workers work hard and pay taxes and contribute to the economy. To repatriate the undocumented would take billions out of our economy and billions more to accomplish, reducing our tax base at the same time. There would be job vacancies that no one else wants to fill.
These undocumented workers, and we are talking about the Hispanic people coming across from Mexico, are hard working and family-oriented. I believe that as a population they exhibit very low crime rates; they are too busy working and have little incentive to commit crime, the one exception to this is coming to this country illegally in the first place.
This is a very difficult issue, not so black and white. I strongly believe that we are a nation of laws and that we should abide by the law. Since we (i.e. government and industry) have some culpability here I feel that a pragmatic response is appropriate.
I think a pathway to citizenship is a reasonable approach, but I also think that our first priority should be to secure our southern border as best we can.
The pathway to citizenship approach could also address a few more issues as part of the process. Tax surcharges and fines could be assessed on incomes and used to pay for the securing of our southern border and for the cost of processing the undocumented.
English tutoring and competency tests as well as instruction in American civics could also be required as a condition, perhaps conducted at a place of worship before or after Sunday services. This would enable Hispanics in general to better assimilate into this country and to participate in our democracy.
If you think "No, illegal immigrants should be sent back to their place of origin", I'd like to know what remedies you might suggest.
How would you proceed with implementing those remedies?
How would you suggest we pay for it?
Is the deportation of millions of people good for our economy? Our country? Our image abroad?
Does deportation make any sense at all until we secure our border with Mexico?
Is securing the border even possible or affordable?
How would this reflect on our national psyche?
How would deportation affect the relationship between our legal Hispanic citizens and the rest of us?
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Comments: 55 ( 111 removed by Mike W. )
I agree with you, by the way--it's both impossible to deport this many people and it would be disruptive to the economy, to local communities, and it would create a lot of dysfunctional young American citizens--those who were born here and whose family members are deported. (They're not "naturalized" citizens, by the way--that's someone who becomes a citizen as an adult by applying, taking a test, oath, etc. Anyone who's born in the US is a citizen by birth, or the phrase we've been hearing recently, a "natural-born citizen".
It is sad that a great many Americans have chosen to point to illegal immigrants as the cause of America's current woes, when it is so far from the truth.
As you have pointed out, most illegal immigrants carry low paying, highly undesirable jobs, that Americans do not want anyway. I know a few illegals, and I know they PAY taxes. They MUST pay taxes if they desire a remote chance of becoming a naturalized citizen. And if they OVERPAY on their taxes, they have NO chance of getting any refunds! Tell me that is fair!! My experience with illegals is that as a group, they are as honest and hard working as are American citizens.
While it is true that illegals are breaking the law, it is a law which to this point has not been enforced. For example, almost everybody goes about 5 miles per hour over the speed limit, because almost everybody knows that cops will not pull you over for only 5 MPH over, so long as they do not have some other reason for stopping you. As such, everyone in America breaks the law while driving - - should we fine everybody who does this. There are many laws on the books which are not enforced. To suddenly decide to enforce illegal immigration poses an undue stress to those who are already here, and have made America their home.
To enforce illegal immigration, we must first secure the borders. Don't ask me how we can do that successfully, because I do not have an answer. If we were able to secure the borders, then we must give our current illegal residents a reasonable path to naturalization. Illegals who have committed serious crimes or cannot prove they paid taxes over a number of years should be evaluated on a case by case basis, and the worst offenders should be deported. All others should be given a reasonable chance at a path to citizenship.
We all have ancestors who were immigrants, except for the natives.
It is sad that we now say, "Well, I'm here, yay for me, too bad for you."
Perhaps, according to the general attitude of the American public toward immigrants, we should tear down the Statue of Liberty, and blow up Ellis Island.
P.S. Mike - - I am sorry to see that you have chosen to limit the discussion on this topic. I have always felt that we liberals and progressives possessed the quality of letting everyone speak, no matter how much disregard we have for their comments. When I read over discussions, I recognize those people who have little to offer to the discussion, and I summarily skip over their comments. I honestly do not think it distracts from the topic at hand, because people are pretty good at picking the valuable content and disregarding useless content. I notice many article authors police their threads, and suggest people get back on topic. I really think you are doing yourself a disservice by removing or limiting comments. People immediately get the feeling that you are unfair, when in fact, you are not. I mean, I'm just sayin'.
Yep, many people do not understand why I've taken this drastic measure, and I am pained to once again distract from the issues in order to explain it or to defend myself here in the comment section. But for you, my friend, I feel I should.
Some assume I have taken this action to limit the discussion to support only my views or to trample free speech or who-knows-what. I think if one looks around at the other articles and responses on my page they will see that these assumptions are ridiculous.
You cannot believe what I've been through the past 24 hours. I would describe the experience as abusive and harrassing. I won't tolerate it, no matter what people may construe from their limited knowledge about the situation.
I disagree with you that the actions by certain others has not been distracting, and that is a judgement call that I am willing to defend and for which I take responsibility. I will publish my response in an article at the appropriate time, probably tomorrow on Independence Day - as I consider myself to be a person of an independent nature.
Until then the following will serve as a notice to others who may want to message or comment and will serve as my last word on the subject:
If you want to comment on the article, no matter what your position is, do so and you will most likely have no problem getting it accepted.
Be yourself, express away, but if you feel you need to post 10 times in order to get your point across don't be suprise if I delete them!
If you want to comment on me personally or the actions I've taken or the way I manage my page, by all means do so, but as a private message and not a comment.
In the meantime, I will just have to accept the derision and assumptions from others who might not yet understand and will at all times remain true to my purpose.
Explain to me how they become naturalized citizens.
I have lived in both FL and TX, and in both areas, people were chagrined at the jobs that the hispanics stole from the community. In days gone by, teens and employed persons picked oranges. It's how they survived. Picking oranges was something that FL youth knew they "had" to do as a right of passage into adulthood. It was expected of them. Now, of course, we coddle our kids and they work in fast food where they can spit in our foods if they don't like our attitudes.
Your article said, "Undocumented workers work hard and pay taxes and contribute to the economy. " Do you know how they do that? Pay taxes, I mean? They have to have a real Social Security number if they're paying taxes. Have you ever come into contact with anyone whose SS# was stolen and used by illegal immigrants? I have. One lady tried getting disability, but was turned down because she had worked a 40 hour a week job, according to SS records. She had not worked in 3 years, but her record said she had. It also said she had a home in another state. Turned out that 2 hispanic men were using her SS#. Getting that fixed cost her a bunch - in time and money - and she had to beg for a new SS# - something Social Security doesn't like to do. Then she had to show that part of her earnings were on one SS# and part on another. Her nightmare will probably continue on into retirement age, when SS will try to claim she doesn't have enough credits to get retirement SS.
It costs us way too much money now to support the illegal immigrants. I would certainly prefer spending that money to send them back with instructions about how to enter the lawful way. I'd support spending lots of money to secure our borders. I don't worry just about hispanic illegal immigrants getting through. We all know that if they can get through, so can anyone else - people who would like to do us harm.
We can still be a melting pot, but we have to draw the line at letting anyone sneak into our country. I am one of those "deport 'em" folks. You bet.
Other countries would not have stood for this as long as we have. What kind of reputation would we get if we sent everyone back? The world would realize we're still a strong nation, and not a bunch of weaklings.
Thank you for your comments.
I am not Hispanic. The Hispanic population is less here in Minnesota than in Texas and Florida. But that is all beside the point.
The point is if it is a problem we need to fix it, and we all agree that illegal immigration is a problem.
You made two concrete suggestions on how to fix it:
1 - Stop providing social services to illegal immigrants and use that money to deport them. As part of the deportation they would be provided with instructions on how they may enter the country legally.
2 – Spend what we need to spend in order to secure our borders.
It's okay, Marilyn, if you are of the "deport them all" camp. That was not my issue with what went on here. You are entitled to your opinion, and you should feel free to express it here or anywhere. I support you in that.
It didn't take you 30 posts to get your point across, it took just one. And your point could have been made in one or two sentences, such as:
Illegal immigration is a problem in America and we can start to fix it by securing our borders. We could also suspend social services and redirect that money to deport those people we have denied services to.
That about covers it, two sentences. Why did it take you five paragraphs to say the same thing? Why did it take others 120 posts to say less than what I did in two sentences? That is my point, Marilyn. That is the problem I have with what went on here in the past couple of days.
It's like someone at a party who won't shut up and no one else can get a word in edgewise. It's dominating the rap, Jack, and when that happens it stifles the conversation. It suppresses the freedom of others to speak.
Those who were doing the stifling had the nerve to say that it was me who was suppressing free speech by deleting a pile of crap. And then I get to hear whatshername call me a liar and offer nothing to support her claim thus ensuring no defense.
Did anybody realize that I deleted my own comments as well?
No, I'm not against free speech, I'm against free character assassination. This is right out of the Karl Rove handbook.
You controllling fool.
You make my point for me, thank you.
You are no longer welcome here. You add nothing but hate to the debate, and what use is that?
You certainly are not a wise woman in my book.
Best of luck, and bye-bye!
She will correct the spelling on some articles, she acts as if she is better than most on here...
I have been called all kinds of names on here because of who I am friends with... If they noticed I am still friends with her...But would you believe that one of Sharons friends tried to tell me who to be friends with???? This very same person also, deleted someones comments on one of his articles, but yet he fussed about someone deleting him....
Sharon, is not the only nasty on here,,, there are some more.. One accused me of being afraid of a black man, because I dont support Obamas views, but yet this woman was on another article saying, how stupid it was for anyone to call someone racist because they wouldnt vote for him...???
Another idiot on here considers herself a fashion designer and made fun of me for wearing a certain outfit that I wrote about and how I messed it up really bad at the ballpark... But yet this one wrote an article about crashing the grocery carts into things, when no one was around... And this thing calls herself an adult... She wrote an article about me and they made fun of me... Then, I had some that wanted me to connect... Yea, right.... These kind of people call themselves educated... LOL.... Mature,,,,, LOL.... They are two faced too, they will go to another article and act as if they are saints.... why, because you have to agree with what they say... Its all about them.... They crave attention, they slur you , insult you and the whole time, they are showing how little they are. I think most of them were rejects in school, not very popular, cowards, who would not dare say this to any ones face....
Keep right on deleting them... they deserve it....
Now , as for your article.. I dont know what the solution is to this problem... But I dont agree that they should be allowed to have children in this country , then the kids become citizens... I dont buy into the arguement that some politians are saying, they are doing jobs that Americans wont do.. Lets give these jobs to welfare people, to earn a check... We are then saying taxpayers money all the way around... If they want to stay here then by all means, they can do it the legal way...
Good article...
Thanks, hon, for the words of encouragement and sharing your experience. You know you are siding with a liberal, don't you?
It shows your independent nature and I applaud you for the strength and courage of your convictions.
I don't think it's a bad thing to be liberal or conservative. It is a bad thing to be mean spirited, and that comes in all kinds of people.
You just be true to yourself. There are a lot of people on the Internet who are hate-mongers and love nothing more than to push other people's buttons.
You cannot argue with unreasonable people, so I think it best not to give them any attention.
I'm sorry you were subjected to similar abuse. No one should have to be exposed to that kind of controlling behavior.
I hope you have reported it to customer support and that you will consistently report abuse each and every time it happens. I know I will.
I heard of an article that was written about this situation and apparently a non-deleter group was started. I suppose I can't join. Darn. Here's the link:
http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.jsp?articleId=281474977390743
I've posted my response to the article, which I'll post separately after this one.
We have certainly lost the momentum on this discussion about immigration to these hijackers, and we are still talking about the distracting controversy. Evidently this is a problem for those who are sincere about a constructive debate, no matter what the point of view.
HEY EVERYBODY, MYSTERY SOLVED! I'M THE DELETER!
I'm new to all of this and am still trying to find my way. I stated on my profile since day one "To the point gathers: I am simply not interested."
Perhaps you can tell me if someone gets points for leaving comments and should those comments be deleted are their points then subtracted?
Some people seem more than interested in point gathering, it seems to be the whole reason they are here. So it is to their advantage to send as many comments as possible, which means they are probably not all that interested in the content of their comments, just the quantity.
Hmmmm. I'm starting to see the bigger picture here. Point gatherers descend upon a hapless soul such as my self and spend the whole day typing away and posting an inordinate amount of messages that contain virtually nothing of interest, and when those messages are deleted their points go away and they've wasted all that time. They get very upset and angry.
And then, to discourage deletions in the future they launch a personal attack via comments, messages and articles and begin a character assassination complete with unsubstantiated accusations and then go on to claim that it has something to do with free speech!
Nobody mentions the fact that I deleted all of my comments as well!
Well, I feel totally justified now in the actions I've taken, and I'm giving notice to others who would think to use me in that way that I have no compunction about deleting comments such as what I've received recently. I can smell a point gatherer a mile away now, thanks to the education I've just received.
I suppose that if you are all so set against the deletion of comments that mine will remain here as long as anybody's? Right? I'll check back and see.
I've been called a coward by some who are posting here, but I'm not the one hiding behind some icon with a false name. If you are so open and truthful and feel that what you are doing is so justifiably right and good and correct, why don't you show yourselves and tell us who you are?
There is no fear when truth is on your side. I've spent too much time on this nonsense already, so you all have your fun as long as it isn't on my page.
When you post a thread on this subject, all heck is going to break loose and you should know that in advance.
I am all for illegals being sent home. I have neighbors who are working with bought and paid for social security cards, their kids are going to college with a stolen social security card, they are all receiving medical care with their stolen I.D.'s. The husband works in his own body shop and charges tax but pays no taxes for the work he does. He buys and sells cars and pays no taxes. His wife works two jobs and pays taxes but does not file income tax returns and yet receive earned income credit checks every year somehow, someway.(for the past three years now and in the amount of over $1200 each year ~ I saw them) The son who just graduated from high school works with another social security card that they bought. They are also receiving food stamps, and the list goes on and on. How I know this you might ask?? Because she (the woman) told me herself. I was even told who the person was that they bought their illegal documentation from. Her family receives medical care for whatever ails them through Parkland Hospital which is for people who don't earn enough of an income. She never lists that her husband works or that her son works or that she works two jobs thus ~ free health care at our expense. hmpf!
You say that these people are here to earn an honest living and are family oriented. On whose dollar and in whose name may I ask?? They are working to get all of the rest of their 599 other relatives here and now. Well they have to work three or four jobs per household because they have to have the money to pay "coyotes" to get them across the border illegally so they too can be living in the Land of the Home of the Brave. And then you say that who is going to do the jobs that these people do?? There are plenty of auto mechanics that are American citizens who can't find a job because there are those who will work for less because after all they don't have to pay taxes so what the heck? Then the one working at the Mall, what person wouldn't want a cushy job at the department stores in one of the finest malls that this city or state has to offer?? And then those clothes discounts?? My, my what luck illegals have.
Who says they are doing jobs that no one else will do? Thats the one that I really want to hear. With our economy the way it is right now, I know that there are plenty of us Americans here that would do anything to be able to put gas in their cars and to be able to feed their kids.
I have far more to say but will leave it at this lest I have a breakdown out of anger over this topic.
I know that these documents have fooled companies that are asociated with my company or maybe hey aren't fooled but really just choose to look the other way because that labor they are getting is much cheaper than what they would get otherwise. Funny thing is Mike that my company has a branch in the Twin cities and I represent that branch in my job. I have had discussions about that with people that work there and they have told me that they only have one Mexican working there so they do not understand theproblem. Maybe since you also live in that area and do not have to deal with a lot of that particular issue yourself you have a slightly different view of it than others do.
I am all for anyone at all making a living in this country and taking advantage of all of the great things that are offered by this country. That is if they do it the right way, the legal way and in a way that does not hurt others that are trying to do it the right way and have been citizens of this great country all of their lives. Or even came here from other countries but did it the right way just like my grandparents did.
It was announced today also that the local branch of the National Guard from Delaware has been removed from the mexican border and are standing down along with all other branches. This program has stopped over 170,000 illegal aliens since it started (or maybe the same ones over and over again) and also stopped drugs fro coming into the country. The bush administration has rdered it to be disbanded because of the cost involved. We are spending billions in Iraq "protecting us by stopping them from being terrorists over here by keeping them there' yet we just dropped off a program with proven results that will definitely lead to more hardships on the American people with its disbanding. Somehow I think that money was being better spend than the billions we are spending on the sham and fiasco that is Iraq!
I'm sorry, I'm not an anarchist. I am not here to promote "freedom of harassment".
I am here to discuss the issues with intelligent people of any stripe, persuation or point of view.
If I weren't I would have deleted all of Winston's comments in all the other articles. It is Winston who has been the most prolific commentator to my articles.
Even Winston doesn't need to post 30 comments to get his point across, when there actually is a point.
So take a look around and open your eyes and get yourself "edumacted" on the situation before you open your mouth here on my page.
You should really get rid of the Uncle Sam avatar. Perhaps you should replace it with a Joseph Goebbels icon.
Waving a flag does not make you a patriot, and neither does suppressing other's right to free speech.
You make valid points and we all agree that this is a huge problem for America. I am not trying to be an apologist for those that are taking advantage of the situation and acting illegally in order to survive and to make things better for their families. If we were in similar situations as they, I think we would do nothing different.
Esther, please forgive the obvious frustration in my tone, it is not meant for you. So many comments are triggering in me a need to vent, so do not take it personally. I really appreciate your comments and supporting me in my right to delete anything on my page that I choose.
We are getting so bogged down in this discussion making a point over and over again to which we already agree: illegal immigration is a huge problem for America. Since we all agree on this point there is no reason to clog the comment space in making this same point yet again.
I would like to move on to Phase II and focus on what we could do about it. What are the PRACTICAL things we might do to address the situation?
If one starts to think seriously about solutions I think it becomes pretty clear that repatriating (deporting) illegal immigrants is not a workable solution. As much as it feels right to say it or is the principled thing to do, it is simply not practical.
Let's take deportation off the table for now; I think it is wishful thinking to think of that as an option. So what's to be done?
We can't just wish the problem away folks or hope it can be achieved by sending 100 comments suggesting nothing practical. Let's get real here. Let's get creative. Let's address viable ideas, practical things we can do to better the situation.
Some things to keep in mind:
· It's going to cost us to do something. Where is the money going to come from?
· What are the responsibilities for those American employers who hire illegal immigrants.
· What are the responsibilities of the countries of origin who have not been able to provide adequate opportunities for their citizens?
· What are the responsibilities of our government for their failure to systematically address this issue and for inadequate enforcement as well as their failure to secure our borders?
I would like to suggest something similar to a Truth and Reconciliation Commission in which illegal immigrants exchange truth for citizenship, and as part of the process of citizenship are identified, finger printed, issued valid photo ID's and assessed a reconciliation surtax on income for offsetting the cost of processing. English proficiency could also be assessed and education mandated for those who need it. It is vital that all immigrants become fairly proficient in the English language.
The truth part of this process is to require from those who are engaged in this process toward citizenship to give as much information as possible about former employers.
Employers could also come to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission for Immigration and come clean in exchange for leniency for their illegal actions. They too would be required to give as much information as possible about the illegal immigrants they have hired.
Those employers that have not confessed their crimes to the commission and are found to be in violation may face possible jail time, fines and a transfer of their entire business operations and assets to former illegal immigrants who have satisfied the requirements of the Commission and have been granted legal status, all this under the oversight of or in partnership with the Federal government.
These ideas are off the cuff and perhaps not well fleshed out, but it seems to me a viable path for getting back to the rule of law for this country.
More dumbness from the Decider. Don't get me started. January 2009 can't come quick enough for me. Bush is a lame dunce president in my book.
Obviously we need something more practical than most of the suggestions so far offered.
I agree. Perhaps the first discussion we should be having on this topic is the securing of our border.
How effectively and by what methods could this be done?
What would it cost?
What are the social, environmental and economical consequences?
How can we even assess these questions?
Is there any data to support feasibility of the idea?
I would like to hear your views on this George.
I have a personal friend who is an illegal alien.
What I speak here is first hand from her experience, this is no BS!
Illegal immigrants can pay taxes by going to the IRS and asking for a special Taxpayer Identification Number (TIN) which is assigned to a person who is an illegal alien status. It is absolutely NOT necessary for an illegal to steal another person's SSN to pay taxes. This special TIN allows them to file a tax return, in spite of their illegal status. They must pay taxes, Social Security and Medicare taxes, EVEN THOUGH they do not have an actual SSN to credit their Social Security and Medicare payments to. Additionally, if they overpay their taxes, they are not allowed to get a refund of that overpayment.
My illegal alien friend has taken night classes at a local Community College, which she paid for herself, to learn English properly. She speaks very good English now, albeit with a Spanish accent.
She applied for her Green Card, which took 6 years and over $15,000 in legal expenses and gov't fees before she finally acquired it. In 5 years she will able to take her citizenship test, and become a naturalized citizen. She will again take night classes to study for that test, paying for it with her own money. She has her own business cleaning houses herself, with nobody also working for her. She works 6 days a week, 8 hours a day. She is so good that she has a waiting list of people who want to use her services. She pays an accountant to do her taxes.
I really do not appreciate those people here who think that illegals have everything handed to them on a silver platter. In my friend's case, nothing could be further from the truth. It is hard to imagine that things could have been made any more difficult for her than they already are.
I believe a LOT of misinformation is being disseminated about illegal aliens, to produce a general attitude that they are all no good. I am just trying to set the record straight here.
I still do not have an answer to your problem Mike.
I did want to take this chance to reinforce the positive comments you made in your article about illegal aliens, because many have challenged you in this thread, on those comments.
I can't tell you how much I appreciate your support, and most important for providing such valuable first-hand information. What a breath of fresh air to this converstaion.
Misinformation and character assassination is so in style these days. That is exactly how Bush got elected twice (well, really only once).
Oops, I'm off-topic now. Sorry.
What do you think about a Truth and Reconciliation approach as I've previously suggested?
I use to have a girlfriend, a caucasian gal who's dad was in the State Department, and she lived in Ecuador and Guatemala for many years and spoke fluent Spanish.
I've learned a little, mostly things like "dame un beso".
Tango buen dias!
Where is it that you work? Do you have any suggestions for addressing the problem of illegal immigration?
What do you think of a Truth and Reconciliation approach?
Thanks for participating.
I will tell you a story here of something that recently happened at my place. There was a young Mexican man in his early to mid twenties that everyone really liked. He was a "truck driver's helper" on our early morning shift. One night at around 3:00 AM he was leaving his apartment to come to work. He saw three men outside the apartment who approached him as he walked to his car. Hedidn't like the looks of it, so he walked back to the apartment and tried to "outwait" them. He had a young wife and three very young children in that apartment with him. After a few minutes of waiting he said to his wife, "What can I do, I have to get to work and I need to leave now. Hopefully they are gone." He went back out to his car and this time took a hammer with him to protect himself. Well, he was wrong about these guys being gone. They had hidden near his car and waited for him to get very close to it, this time around. They approached him as he tried to get in the car and what happened next is really based only on what his young wife saw from a distance. As they approached him, he pulled the hammer out of the inside of his jacket. One of the three pulled a gun and shot him twice in the head in cold blood. After taking his backpack and the lunch and sweatshirt that he had in it they ran off and left him there.
His wife than called 911 and ran out to help him. He taken to the hospital where heng on with life support for four days. When he meh decision to take him off of it, he died within a 1/2 hour. So his life was taking as he was headed to a lower paying job in the middle of the night to support three kids and a wife. Even worse than that his life was taken by people that wanted to take off of him the very little that he had and that he had worked for!
Over a next few days, many collections were taken up at my place of employment and also with some of our vendors and customers. We also held a two day fund raising "basket raffle" and some other things that all proceeds were to be given to his family. Between all of the fund raising efforts we raised about $6500.00 for his family. His wife came to my work the following Monday to pick up the money and also his "last" paycheck. She brought a friend with her and also her three young children. I saw her and also looked into the eyes of the youngest one as they went past and were thanking everyone for what they did. In tose eyes I didn't see a child of an "illegal Mexican worker" but just a child that had just lost his father and was very sad and scared. His wife's eyes and her overall look also showed such great sadness that I don't think it crossed anyone's mind whether she was an "illegal" or not.
Truth is though that she was an "illegal" and so was he. The children fit into that category of being "born here in America" so they get that exception. Last I had heard the government was working to deport the mother and there was a child advocacy group and a migrant workers group working to keep her here with her children, and start her on the path to citizenship!
This is just one situation of many that we have ourselves created in this country. We need to work together to find an answer that is humane, fair and permanent for all of the people involved and that includes those that are already here illegally and also the citizens of this country who want something done about those that are already here and to stem the tide of "illegal" workers that continue to come into the country.
Finding them all and booting them out is nearly impossible and at best very costly and not totally civilized in any way that it would be carried out.
I do like the "Truth and Reconciliation " approach and think that would be a very good starting point. I think there is room for improvement in that overall process, but am just not sure of how it would be modified to be fair to all involved. It is tough to say who is really the more guilty party, the workers who mostly come here and work hard to support their families or the employers who are doing it to raise their profit margins.
I'll tell you one thing though that I think is very true. If something was managed to be carried out and all of these workers were found and deported, the employers would have to hire citizens at a higher wage. In turn they would raise prices to make up their lost margins. When that happened the same people who are now screaming "kick them all out", would then be screaming "why are these prices so high, something needs to be done about this"!! As it is always true, there are no "perfect answers" to any problem and someone is not going to be happy with the actions that are taken!
Thanks for sharing your stories with us here. I agree with everything you've said.
I don't get it, this us and them mentality of so many Americans. We are all in this world together whether we like it or not, and what is bad for one is bad for all.
You can deal with the world the way it is or the way you imagine it to be. One way makes for a better world, and the other the does not..
It's a heart-wrenching story. What are we here in America. Are we a people of hate or compassion? I would like to think the latter.
Just got your 2:44 pm post.
You're right, no perfect answers and we might not be able to be completely fair. We have to do something, and soon, however imperfectly.
I think the government and businesses have the greater share of the blame than the immigrants.
We must be careful of unintended consequences from whatever action we take. Nothing is ever done in America where everybody is satisfied. Sometimes a good compromise is only achieved when NOBODY is satisfied!
Sharon wasn't originally on my short list, but her behavior has earned her a place.
If you look around my page and read the articles I've posted, it should be obvious that my whole underlining principle for being here is to engage others in a healthy debate, the qualifier being "healthy".
I have begged for others to share their differing opinions. It's great to preach to the choir, but that is not my intent.
I have joined and posted on conservative groups, I have invited Muslims to enter into the discussions. I have shown incredible patience (IMHO, of course) with all who have cared to engage me on any topic regardless of point of view.
But I understand, Bob, that you do not know the full story, and it is a shame to have this issue come up between people whose opinion you respect. But whether they agree with me or not, I have issues concerning their behavior here, the personal attacks they have made, and these issues are not resolved and I won't give them the time of day until I have some satisfaction in the matter.
I'm sure you can sense how outraged and frustrating this has been for me; I don't want you to think any of this is directed toward you.
I've got to go and play some music with some friends at the club and unwind.
Perhaps you are willing to act as a liason and arbiter between the parties, however I want to hear from Gather customer support before I do anything else. I should have been holding my tongue until then, but I wasn't raised that way.
Again, thanks for all your input.
Bob, considering this along with your explanation (word of mouth, bragging, sometimes second hand info), I think it is probably not a good idea to use your co-worker as an example. There's too much room for error in that story and you see how people read a story like that, take it as gospel, spread it to the next guy or the next thread . . . and soon we have half the country believing that every person who even looks "foreign" is illegal and doing all the things you think your co-worker might be doing.
Mike, you're absolutely about one thing. I'm always too verbose. :-)
Another thing: you mention ITIN's (it's Individual Taxpayer Identification Number) issued by the IRS. You are right, but I don't want people to go away from this thinking only illegal immigrants use them. They're issued to anyone who is required to file a tax return or can be claimed as a dependent by a taxpayer in the US, but does not quality for an SSN. This includes non-resident foreigners who earn money here (a visiting foreign professor giving a lecture might need one), non-citizen spouses of US citizens or permanent residents while their applications for a green card are pending, as well spouses/dependents of people on work/academic visas. All perfectly legal. The perception that use of an ITIN is strongly linked to illegal status has recently resulted in not only countless legal immigrants but a number of overseas military families being denied economic stimulus payments.
I didn't open my mouth, I wrote a comment.
"You should really get rid of the Uncle Sam avatar. Perhaps you should replace it with a Joseph Goebbels icon."
You know what, I'm a citizen of the United States of America...that's my icon and if you don't like it...well that's just too bad.
"Waving a flag does not make you a patriot, and neither does suppressing other's right to free speech. "
OK....again...I'm a citizen of the United States of America....that's my flag and I respect it. Maybe if you don't like that flag, or my icon, or the United States of America...this is a free country and you are free to leave any time you wish.
With Americans like you blabbering such idiocy as you did in your response to my simple comment, our future isn't looking too bright.
I invite you to come on over and comment. I never delete comments, so feel free to leave as many stupid Anti-American comments as you wish!
You make all my points for me.
Your tone is one of self-righteous talk-radio hate-mongering rooted in ignorance, all image and no substance.
What do your comments have to do with the issue of illegal immigration exactly?
You are easily dismissed. Thanks for the points!
It would be helpful to always cite your sources of information. Facts can be misleading without context.
Over what period of time has this 25% repatriation occurred, a month, a year? Is this a data spike or a trend? How do we know if it will continue until all are repatriated?
That still leaves 75% of millions of illegal immigrants, still a big problem.
Do I understand your position correctly as taking a wait-and-see/hands-off approach?
If that doesn't work, do you have any suggestions on how to deal with this problem either now or in the future?
Not a problem. Spend them wisely! LOL!!
Closer to tyranny? It has been achieved, however temporary it may be.
I'm not sure what your OMG comment is about, perhaps the recent controversy concerning my deletion of posts (including my own). If so, I suggest you know the whole story before making judgment.
Timothy V -
I just wanted to repeat my apology to you here for my condescending reply to your provocative comment.
I have certainly been on the defensive lately due to recent events, and I am sure that that had something to do with the tone of my response. This is not an excuse but an explanation.
I thought I had you pegged and I apologize for my prejudice.