Why Dems rule the city -- Republicans, the outer ring: Do your politics reflect your location?

I'm guessing that people in the city like the bus and people in the suburbs don't. It all boils down to that !!!!

ha ha

Haven't people always convened to people of their liking? Isn't this included in the bill of rights?

What's the issue with redistricting? Do the social engineering types say we should have equal types of all types of people in each district? Forced "diversity"? If so, why?

Yes, people will always try to redraw the boundries to gain politcal advantage, so what's new?

It seems the closer you get to tall buildings the more "social engineering" types you get and the more they want someone else to pay for their lifestyle and values.

I think people are attracted to like-minded people. Honestly, it's much more pleasant to socialize and be surrounded by people who tend to agree with your views and values.

City dwellers are more sophisticated than those in the 'burbs. They're not content with boring chain restaurants and big box stores. They appreciate beauty, diversity, history, and culture. They embrace things and people that are different. Democrats are city dwellers, hence, Democrats are more sophisticated than Republicans. 'Nuff said.

And I'm a Republican who lives in the urban city. I dislike box chain stores and chain restaurants. I like old stucco homes with high ceilings and nice woodwork, trees that form a canopy over the street. I love the diversity of people, including people who don't think politically like me(I don't think that the leftward thinking folks can say that about rightward thinking folks).

But I don't think of myself as being more refined or superior or that I need to make a society reflect my values except that of personal liberty.

I was tweaking yer nose, Winston.

You wrote: "the closer you get to tall buildings, the more 'social engineering' types you get and the more they want someone else to pay for their lifestyle and values." Huh? Can you expound on that?

Busing kids out of their neighborhood instead of attending their neighborhood school.

Most heavy/light rail transit in less dense urban communites are heavily subsidized and only add few new riders are added than what was previously handled in the bus line.

Winston Smith said-
Most heavy/light rail transit in less dense urban communites are heavily subsidized and only add few new riders are added than what was previously handled in the bus line.

You just made this up.
And as far as Social Engineering goes- Women's right to choose and make decisions about their own bodies? What do you call that.
Demanding that everyone pay for new roads and more lanes to make your decision to move away from people with dark skin easier to live with? What do you call that.
It is intersting how you always want to pound your Republican Right Wing Chest, but then always says "that's not me" when certain Republican traits are mentioned (like the addiction to corporate chains).

Busing kids out of their neighborhood instead of attending their neighborhood school.

I didn't realize this is happening.

Minnesota DOES have open enrollment. Any kid can go to any school of their choosing provided that school accepts them.

So far as my politics are concerned, I am a semi-recent transplant to the city from the 'burbs. I described my political stances in *another political forum and was deemed an "orthodox centrist".

I tend to vote for Dems mainly because most Democratic candidates ARE centrist - true "Liberal" Democrats are few and far between no matter what anyone tells you.

I have voted for 3 different political parties throughout my voting career. If a candidate has what I think is a "like-minded" stance on a topic I deem worthy, I'll vote for them. The political letter after their name doesn't really matter to me.

As an aside, while I have spent most of my life in the 'burbs, I find living in the "big city" is MUCH more enjoyable than living in the outlying areas. The architecture, the small restaurants and shops and the lakes make Minneapolis a GREAT place to live (St. Paul is cool too). I found SO many people out in the 'burbs who area actually deathly afraid of coming to the "big city". When I told them I was moving to Minneapolis proper, they were puzzled and afraid for my safety.

Give me a break.

http://www.publicpurpose.com/

Some people think its a baby.

The people I know that live far out like to have a big lawn, a newer house, and be spread out, not side by side bungelows like where I live. I know "people of color" that live far out of the city too. They do it for the same reasons. So you think it's a good idea to force people to live with people of another race/religion/gender? The roads also allow goods and services to come in and out of the city. Commerce is good.

I never said I liked corporate chains. That's one of the reasons I live in the city. I prefer my local hardware store, my local restaurant, and go to my local independant gas station for my car repairs. I do some of my convenience shopping at a local supermarket because they have their own butcher shop, but do admit I shop at the bullseye store for most my groceries.

John, you are the one pounding your chest.

That's one of the reasons I live in the city.

You seem to one of the few "Republicans" living in the city. You are the exception, not the rule. you see that, don't you?

I know "people of color" that live far out of the city too. They do it for the same reasons.

They, too, are the exception and not the rule. By and large the premise "like drawing like" seems to be in play here. My daughter currently attends a third ring suburban high school and there are very few "children of color" in the school with her. Virtually all of her peer's parents are white conservative Republicans. I was surrounded by white conservative Republicans where I lived.

Just take a look at the map at the top of this thread. What do you see? Blue in the soft, inner core and red in the crunchy outer shell (much like a Tootsie-pop).

A couple of interesting quotes from the Gilbert article:

Higher income folks tend to vote Republican.

And why is this? Because they "vote their pocketbook." They want what's theirs, and everyone else be damned. Who gives a rat's patootie about (fill in the blank... minorities, the poor, the homeless, immigrants, so-called welfare moms)? The Republican motto is "I GOT MINE."

Another quote from the article:

Mike Beyer, mayor of the outer ring western suburb of Rockford, says it's obvious why conservatives would prefer his town to Minneapolis.

"Because you have your space," Beyer says. "You're not part of an apartment complex, which is a communal area. Communal to me is social, and social goes to socialism. But here, it's your space, your time, your business, and that's generally conservative people."

Heavens! (*fans face with $100 bill) The very THOUGHT of touching the same DOOR HANDLE that someone ELSE has touched.. WELL! It makes me positively ill! THINK of what I might CATCH! My DEAR, I couldn't POSSIBLY live in an apartment complex with those (fill in the blank... minorities, poor people, so-called welfare moms, immigrants).

Mike Beyer, mayor of the outer ring western suburb of Rockford, says it's obvious why conservatives would prefer his town to Minneapolis.

"Because you have your space," Beyer says. "You're not part of an apartment complex, which is a communal area. Communal to me is social, and social goes to socialism. But here, it's your space, your time, your business, and that's generally conservative people."
Translated- we don't loke dark skinned people who don't follow NASCAR.

I must have done something awful in a past life, because I have Keith Ellison as my Congressman.

Urban areas are very different from agricultural areas. Life in cities, very different from rural life. It isn't much of a surprise, people living in different environments, are going to produce different ideas about what "life" and "living" are all about.

Highly dense population areas, produce liberal philosophies among the general population of citizens. Sparsely populated areas produce conservative philosophies among the general population. Rules of course, always have exceptions.

A look at any red/blue map will demonstrate quite clearly what I've said.

"your decision to move away from people with dark skin easier to live with?" Have you ever considered that maybe that they don't want to be chased by a car from Minneapolis to St. Paul and have a bottle of vodka thrown at their car by their pursuers? I don't think skin color had anything to do with that? BTW it was an old boss bragging about chasing this guy and throwing the bottle at him.
And why is it always that "you evil racist only move out of the cities to get away from the dark skinned people" seems to be the cookie cutter answer for some people like you when this kind of conversation comes up. You very comment "your decision to move away from people with dark skin easier to live with?" is racist and bigoted also.

"Because they "vote their pocketbook." They want what's theirs"

So is it wrong to have worked hard and want to have something to show for it or as an enlightened society are they suppose to work are and then give up what they earned to be given to the government to use as they see fit?

Is there a set amount that you can earn before you reach the title of being evil and selfish?

Selfish is selfish. There is something sad about the "I got mine and don't want to share, so keep your hands off of it" attitude I see more often in suburbanites. The refusal to consider giving anything for the public good if it does not benefit them personally makes me feel less optimistic for the future of the human race.

Several years ago Minneapolis held a referendum to raise taxes for both school funding and a new library. Both passed. The poor people of Minneapolis voted to raise their own taxes for the benefit of children and those who use the public library system as a means to educate themselves! One of the more affluent suburbs (I forget which one, but I could find it if I did some research) put forth a similar school referendum that same year, and it was voted down.

I think how boring and unadventurous it would be to live your life with the desire to be as untouched by others as possible, spending time amongst only those with similar skin color and financial resources in a rarefied bubble of xenophobic denial regarding how interdependent we are, and how much we need to be working together toward common beneficial goals.

In any case, Minneapolis is an unusually livable city, and I do very much enjoy living near the museums, theaters & neighborhood restaurants. I also enjoy feeling at home, surrounded by people with a similar intellectually curious and engaged mind set, which a much better a predictor of neighborly compatibility than skin color. Thankfully most of my friends are also city dwellers, so I only get the "I just don't understand why you would want to live there" once in a great while.

Have you ever considered that maybe that they don't want to be chased by a car from Minneapolis to St. Paul and have a bottle of vodka thrown at their car by their pursuers? I don't think skin color had anything to do with that? BTW it was an old boss bragging about chasing this guy and throwing the bottle at him.

I see. One anecdotal incident that ostensibly occurred in a city, and now all cities are tarred with one brush as criminal, anarchistic pits of brimstone-spewing Hades. Suburbs = White = Good. City = Black = Bad. It's exactly this kind of black and white thinking that we are talking about!

Seriously, do you really think drunken idiots and road rage doesn't exist outside of the inner city? Because if that's the case you need to occasionally step outside of your panic room once in a while. You see, most criminals know how to drive.

Well auntie I visit the cities often and for the most part I've never seen a crime happening and just like the earlier comment you also want to label people who live in the burbs as being white racist. Again i say that that comment is racist as well. There is no lock on crime by any one race no matter where they live, but there are many who still want to label being white as an automatic racist.
And while I shouldn't have to justify myself to you and anyone else you taking my anecdote on a reason some don't want to live in a city other than geting away from as it was put the "dark skinned people" as a blanket statement of fact just shows how narrow minded you are. And how you arrived at my anecdote as City=Black=Bad i'll never know because I don't think that I said or implied anywhere in my comment what race my boss was. You placed your own label on my comments to justify your comments. My former bosses race or sex have absolutely nothing to do with what they did. Which is why I never said if they were black white yellow or purple. Because it doesn't matter, their behavior was shitty no matter who they were. And I also never said if they were drunk or not so again you are making assumptions about my comments to make your case.


Anyway lighten up this is suppose to be a conversation not a battle

But Auntie is it the governments job to decide who should give what? I think that most perople are generous without haveing to have the government come in and take your money? Shouldn't your first obligation be to your family? Shouldn't they get your money first? Why is taking care of your family first selfish? And alot of these "suburbanites" (boy you're right that does make them sound elitist) are familes.

BTW I'm at the low end of the financial totem pole.
So I guess I'm a financially challenged SUBURBANITE DUM! DUM! DUM DUM! DA! DA! DUM!!!!!!

Selfish is selfish. - Auntie Smedley

Obviously Auntie, you need a basic education in Minnesota politics.

Minneapolis and Saint Paul are HEAVILY subsidied by the suburbs under a wide array of programs such as the Local Grants and Aid Fund. Minneapolis recieves approx. $80 million a year in suburban money, Saint Paul $60 million.

The Minneapolis and Saint Paul school districts receive heavy subsidies in addition to their normal state hand-out. For instance, the state gave Minneapolis $500 million (half a billion) in aid to raise the test scores of minority children -- the district subsequently "lost" the money.

The district also "lost" $1 Billion in pension funds by splurging at the height of Clinton's NASDAQ bubble and not adjusting when the bubble burst.

But then that sort of petty corruption and waste is what defines city politics --- how many former council members have been jailed -- three?

But let's just talk about competance.

The suburbs have banded together to form LOGIS, a consortium of back-office functions to cut their administrative costs. The cities have stubbornly clung to expensive business processes that even their long-term civil servants cannot understand or effectively administer.

It is not a matter of suburbanittes being selfish, it is more a matter of city dwellers being utterly clueless --- and ungrateful.

In any case, Minneapolis is an unusually livable city, and I do very much enjoy living near the museums, theaters & neighborhood restaurants. I also enjoy feeling at home, surrounded by people with a similar intellectually curious and engaged mind set, which a much better a predictor of neighborly compatibility than skin color.

Minneapolis is NOT an integrated city. It's neighborhoods are sharply defined by race. Blacks are mostly relegated to neighborhoods in North and Phillips.

The inner-ring suburbs of Brooklyn Park and Brooklyn Center are far more integrated than Minneapolis.

But the REAL tragedy of Minneapolis (defacto) segregation is the role that government has played and continues to play in shuffling black folks around.

The latest trend is to use urban renewal funds to shunt people of color off to cheap housing in the inner-ring suburbs so rich smug liberals can make a killing by investing in and fixing up older classic neighborhoods.

You don't see to many black folks hanging around the now chi-chi Selby-Dale neighborhood of Saint Paul, a neighborhood that once was completely black.

Guess how many hundreds of millions in suburban tax money it took to move them?

In the 06' elections, I conducted an experiment. I placed policy positions of Democratic party members Hillary Clinton and Amy Klobuchar, with positions of Independence party candidate, Tammy Lee. No one could match the rhetoric with the person, which is what I was intending to show, their positions were identical.

Voters from Mpls came to the polls without having done their homework. They saw a "D" next to Ellisons name, and that was that.

The thrill we all share by Ellisons ability in Congress, will only be surpassed by a President Obama.

At least we still have Amy.

Well, I'm in the suburbs-- LOVE the bus, since I don't drive. I also tend to vote Democrat. Those who just don't want to pay taxes are selfish. There are so many factors that make a person more or less capable financially; assuming that it all comes down to laziness is being destructively ignorant. At the same time, wanting to keep the money you earn certainly does not make someone "evil." The haves need to help out the have nots, but the have nots need to be held accountable for where that money is going.

However, once my kids are out of school there is a good chance I will land in the city

To get back on track, do you think "Like draws like" or do "values" determine where we live?

I am of the opinion that "like draws like".

And Greg, I am guessing you can cite all you have been saying, right?

And Greg, I am guessing you can cite all you have been saying, right?

You can too, just use Google.

As for "like drawing like", explain how an African-American dominated neighborhood like Selby-Dale turns lily-white in 20 years --- that is explain it without accounting for government "renewal" programs.

If "like draws like" one would think it would become more African-American.

Interesting huh?

There is someone here who is missed. The Latinos.

Head to Chaska, Shakopee, Northfield and make a note not to focus on the Northern Europeans....all of a sudden the "suburbs" look kinda different.

You can too, just use Google.

Ah, I see...I didn't think you had anything.

Clue: When referring to specific allegations, especially in a politically charged thread, have a some actual information ready to back up those allegations and don't just say "Just Google it". We are not your research assistants.

Ah, I see...I didn't think you had anything.

If you have a question, ask it. If you simply want to be rude, you can do that too.

I am guessing you can cite all you have been saying, right?

Huh...looks like a question to me.

I wouldn't call Selby-Dale "lily white," Greg. It's definitely a mix (yes, fewer people of color than in the 1970s, but not completely gone). When's the last time you actually hung out around that area?

Onan, Yes, I can cite everything I said, and you can too. You can use google to do it. If you have a specific question regarding a specific fact, ask it.

South of Selby is lily-white. Sure, you may be able to find a person of color, but you can do that in North Oaks and Bearpath too.

Onan, Yes, I can cite everything I said, and you can too. You can use google to do it. If you have a specific question regarding a specific fact, ask it.

As stated before, we are not your research assistants.

And I'll ask yet again - please cite some corroborating evidence for what you have stated.

The topics you hit:

Heavily subsidized cities.

Additional "hand-outs" to Minneapolis and St. Paul schools.

The "splurging" of the pension funds?

The "sharply" defined racial neighborhoods as opposed to the suburbs.

The "shuffling of black folks".

The urban renewal by the "smug liberals" forcing "black folks" into new cheap housing.

I think that about covers it. And remember, just because you believe it, doesn't make it so.

Greg, we do have one thing in common. I saw your story on watching "It Happened One Night" with your wife, and your comments on how heart warming the scene is when everyone sings on the bus. To most people nowadays it probably seems corny and forced, but I'm sure it wasn't corny to people back then. Singing can bring people together, and I have wonderful memories of singing for hours on family car trips. My parents have lovely voices (tenor and alto), and they know hundreds of songs, so I grew up singing tunes from the teens through the 50s (lots of old musical songs, for the most part). We still sing when we're together, and Dad and I harmonize pretty well, I must say!

(Sorry this is off-topic.)

Dad and I harmonize pretty well, I must say!

I'll need to see some proof of that. Just because you believe it, doesn't make it so.

[starts to sing off-key]

"Heavily subsidized cities"

Cite Minneapolis City Budget Note: 24% of the general fund is state aid.

"The "splurging" of pension funds" Federal Reserve Report

Yes, most likely, but you wouldn't know it if you looked at their pension piggy bank. That's because the Minneapolis Teachers' Retirement Fund (MTRF) is seriously underfunded, to the tune of almost $1 billion (yes, with a "b").

Party like it's 1999
Rising unfunded liabilities is a recent reversal of fortune. Just a short half-decade ago, public pensions were flush, thanks to the bull stock market of the 1990s. By 2001, actuarial funding ratios (liabilities divided by assets) for 103 of the nation's largest local and state pensions, including 16 in the district, averaged 101 percent—fully funded, plus change, according to NASRA. Many of the largest public pensions in the district showed a similar healthy glow.

Then came the stock market crash, and pensions started sinking. By 2004, the big pensions saw their funding ratios decline to 88 percent. Roughly three in 10 had a funding ratio below 80 percent, a level many view as the actuarial line in the sand

Hand-out to Minneapolis and St. Paul Schools.

The late Gary Suddeth of the Minneapolis Urban League wrote an impassioned editorial in the Minneapolis StarTribune titled Show Me The Money. Suddeth asked for an accounting of the $500 million allocated to Minneapolis school to raise the test scores of minority youth. Despite lengthy subsequent investigations -- no one could.

"The urban renewal by the "smug liberals" forcing "black folks" into new cheap housing."

Walk over to Selby-Dale. Stand on the corner. Look around. Now walk 10 blocks north and look around.

Need I continue?

The urban renewal by the "smug liberals" forcing "black folks" into new cheap housing.

The word "new" was yours not mine. People of color are mostly moved into cheaper OLDER housing.

I'm guessin' there are just as many "smug" conservatives as there are liberals. Hmmm, perhaps more. Smugness may lie in the eye of the beholder.

I lived on Dayton and Selby for 5 years in the late 90's – early 00's and the area has definitely been gentrified. They've built condos, refurbished houses, torn down houses, moved/built new ones and especially when the housing boom was in play back then, the prices for these places were such that they weren't amenable to lower income families, regardless of race. Heck, even we couldn't afford to have bought a house there at that time. It's not as totally as "Lily-White" as one may think, but there has been a definite sea change.

I'm guessin' there are just as many "smug" conservatives as there are liberals. - Zeldapie

Will not argue with you there, but there is a smugness among the affluent inner-city gentry that is ___ well, it just is.

David Brook described it so well in BoBos in Paradise

Cool, thanks for these links.

The late Gary Suddeth of the Minneapolis Urban League wrote an impassioned editorial in the Minneapolis StarTribune titled Show Me The Money.

What was the date of this editorial? I'd like to read it and the subsequent investigation articles. I don't generally read the StarTribune.

"The "splurging" of pension funds" Federal Reserve Report

While I agree with the premise of not playing fast and loose with someone's pension funds, from the article you linked, it appears that there were many factors that contributed to this pension fund deficit, not necessarily any "splurging". It also states that many of these funds lost value during the stock market crisis.

Note: 24% of the general fund is state aid.

I'd like to know what percentage of income is sent to the state from each city.

Will not argue with you there, but there is a smugness among the affluent inner-city gentry that is ___ well, it just is.

Agreed.

/Not "affluent" by any stretch of the imagination.

I am not sure about the date of the editorial. You could phone the Strib. They are generally pretty good about that.

there were many factors that contributed to this pension fund deficit, not necessarily any "splurging". It also states that many of these funds lost value during the stock market crisis.

Read the section "Party like it's 1999" carefully. You will notice a number of funds increased their disbursements as the market peaked and failed to recind those increases when the market contracted.

Minneapolis School Budget 2008

Let's take a look at Minneapolis Schools 2007 Budget

There are 34,570 students in the district. The budget is a whooping $637 million.

Let's do the math.... $637,000,000 / 34,570 = $18426.39 of spending per student per year. I am sorry, but that is "splurging". The best private K-12 schools in the state cost only a grand more.

Where does the money come from?

I was able to account for the source of $619,221,086 but could find no source for the Transportation Budget. I think most of this is state and federal but I cannot say.

So here is the break down of what I could account for

Local Funds $162,458,229
State Funds $383,200,253
Federal Funds $73,562,604

As you can plainly see the rest of the state pays the lions share of the Minneapolis School Budget. True, the state funds MOST schools, but no where to the tune of $18426.39 per kid.

The 2008 budget allocates $18,931.26 per child.

In summary, Minneapolis resident pay for less than 26% of the total cost of educating their kids and the Minneapolis System is the most expensive in the state.

It is also the poorest performing school district in the state.

More on Show Me The Money

The speech refered to below was submitted to the Strib as an editorial.

School spending has received a great deal of attention recently from community leaders, the Minneapolis school district, and Governor Carlson. Much of this attention was sparked by a speech given by Gary Sudduth, president of the Minneapolis Urban League, to the Minneapolis School Board. In this speech, and a subsequent newspaper editorial, Sudduth demanded that Minneapolis school officials "Show [him] the money!" (Sudduth 1997). In particular, Sudduth complained that more than $500 million was spent in the last six years to improve the achievement of poor and minority students in Minneapolis. Sudduth pointed out that Minneapolis has received and spent $174 million to reduce the average class size, $228 million in funds for compensatory education, $66 million in Title I funds, and $114 million in desegregation funds. Despite this massive infusion of funds, the learning gap has not narrowed and disadvantaged students in Minneapolis are now worse off than they were six years ago. This was enough to give each failing child a private tutor for seven days a week, yet more than 90% of African American eighth graders in Minneapolis failed at least one of the state's basic standards test. Sudduth claimed that the money designated for students of color and students suffering from low achievement instead went to general programming. In his editorial, Sudduth stated, "I am outraged because, once again, we have been betrayed by the very institution that holds out the promise of a better future for our children." (Sudduth 1997). Sudduth demanded that funding for compensatory education, Title I, desegregation and Special Education be used as intended and that the Minneapolis Public Schools document every dollar it receives and spends for poor and disadvantaged students

Now lets's talk about the suburbs.

Here is how to run cities See LOGIS

What is LOGIS?
Local Government Information Systems (LOGIS) is a consortium of Minnesota local government units. The purpose of LOGIS is to provide effective, reliable and adaptable technology solutions to Minnesota public agencies through the sharing of ideas, risks, resources and costs in a cooperative partnership that evolves with agencies' needs.

Members of LOGIS

Apple Valley
Metropolitan Airports Commission
Bloomington
Minnesota Valley Transit Authority
Brooklyn Center
Minnetonka
Burnsville
New Hope
Coon Rapids
Northwest Community Television
Crystal
Oak Grove
Dakota County
Orono
Dakota Communications Center
Pearl Street 911 Communication Center
Eagan
Plymouth
Eden Prairie
Ramsey
Edina
Richfield
Farmington
Robbinsdale
Golden Valley
Rosemount
Hutchinson
Shakopee
Inver Grove Heights
South St. Paul
Lakeville
St. Louis Park
Maple Grove
West St. Paul
Mendota Heights
White Bear Lake

So why did this become a thread about the Minneapolis school district?

Now let's talk about the suburbs.

OK...so you go off topic by ranting about ISD 1 and now where are you going?

So why did this become a thread about the Minneapolis school district? - Onan The Barbarian, Feb 21, 2008, 2:14pm EST

You asked for it here->

And I'll ask yet again - please cite some corroborating evidence for what you have stated.

Additional "hand-outs" to Minneapolis and St. Paul schools. - Onan The Barbarian, Feb 21, 2008, 11:15am EST

OK...so you go off topic by ranting about ISD 1 and now where are you going?

The cite of LOGIS was to demonstrate how the suburbs who receive little or no state aid are far more efficient and effective at governance.

It speaks directly to the incompetence of liberal whiners who waste other people's money then have the balls to complain about how people who do not waste money are being selfish.

Now do you get it?

Minneapolis residents pay for less than 26% of the total cost of educating their kids

Um, speaking for myself, I pay for educating other people's kids.

I have no children of my own, yet I have to pay for the education of others' children. I'm forking over a lot of money for something that, on the surface, has nothing to do with me.

It would be easy for me to be "liberal whiner" (or even a conversative whiner). After all, I don't HAVE children to send to school. Why should I give a sh*t about other people's kids and their education? Why should I give any of my hard-earned money to help out other people's rug rats? What does childhood education have to do with ME?!

As it is, I do pay these taxes happily and without resentment, and I vote yes for school referendums. I believe we all have an obligation to support the greater good. I could say that I don't care about the suburban schools, city schools, or any school, because I have no children... but that's short sighted at best and self-centered at worst.

I'd like to do some research on LOGIS to see how truly effective it is. Their self-congratulatory Web site doesn't really tell me much. When I get time, I'll look into LOGIS.

Zeldapie,

My kids are out of school. We lived in Chaska and Northfield when they went to school and now we live in Eagan. I have no problem paying taxes to educate children in Eagan. I really do not have a problem with helping people in Minneapolis out either.

The problem I have is when so much money is dumped into a city or school district that the feeling of "free-money" overcomes the concept of fiscal responsiblity.

When one sees three council members go to jail for shake-downs, you got to start thinking about how well a city like Minneapolis is really run and you have to question why we are dumping so much "free-money" into it.

Are we not fostering a culture of corruption?

You also have to question why it took a federal prosecutor to put all three Minneapolis City Council members behind bars. Where was the Hennipin Country Prosecutor, Amy Klobbuchar? Was she totally asleep at the switch or was she deliberately tolerating corruption because it was DFL and Green corruption?

Of course you have to understand Amy was a lobbyist for Global Crossing, the company whose bankruptcy was second only to that of ENRON. Maybe for Amy, corruption was just no big deal.

Greg can you guess what the states largest union is?

Education Minnesota, with a membership of 70,000 and despite their ads that say they are for the student in fact they represent the teachers and administrators not the students.
Have you ever tried to get a copy of your schools budget? Good luck. Most have a death grip on it.

While I consider myself a Liberal (in the classical sense of the word), I'm a transplant to the Twin Cities. Chiming in on a few of the subjects in this thread:

On city versus suburbs:
It's all about your priorities in the term quality fo life. I like the convenience of living close to where I work. The idea of a long, expensive commute (expensive in terms of time, money and costs captured or not) is something I willingly gave up when I chose to come here. I have co-workers who commute as much in a day as I do all week. That's 2 hours a day I get back. 10 hours a week, 1 2/3 days a month that is mine to do as I please. That adds up over a working life. I also like the choices a city offers. I can walk out my door and choose between a world class museum, libraries or other intellectually stimulating activities.

As a minority who lives in SW Minneapolis near the lakes, yes Minneapolis is quite a segregated town but show me any older that isn't. True, I don't see many people who look like me when I'm walking my dog or enjoying dinner in the neighborhood with my wife. Do I feel out of place, not at all. Guilty, not a chance but I also try and give back and help imrpove the lot of those less fortunate than I. I do lots of volunterering in teh city.

As far as Mpls Publix Schools. I'll make no illusions about this one. First off I'd like to dispell a notiona that the MPS system gets $18.4K/kid. That's a simplistic way of looking at it. Boy of they got to spend that much on each kid we'd have well paid teachers and be creating Einstein's left and right. More likely the inner city public schools are burdened with aging infrastucture, a shortage of teachers in certain disciplines (math & physical sciences) and have mroe burdens put on them than ANY public education system should have (baby sitter, social worker, nutritionist). Now don't get me wrong, I'm no apologist for the schools. There does need to be more accountability. They're failing magnificently but then again, no one seems to be able to fix that problem!

I think it is due -- in large part -- to the images (sometimes sterotypical) that different groups of voters have with the Democratic and Republican parties.

The Democratic Party is often associated with being the 'progressive' party, where as the Republicans are often associated with being the 'conservative party'. These ID are actually historically rather new.

Cities tend to be more diverse culturally, there is often a more public and organized gay community and a greater demand for city services; i.e. transist, health care, housing, etc.
Republicans can win in cities, but they need to be more socially liberal. Likewise in more rural communities, Democrats can win, but they need to be more socially conservative.

In the more rural parts of the state, an issue like civil rights because eaiser to ignore or put on the back burner when the majority of the voters are white, Christian and much less likely to be openly gay. Likewise, in urban cities voters probably do not show much interest in farm policy.

Another example would be gun policy. Voters in cities often associate guns with crime, while voters in more rural communities often assocaite guns with hunting and self-defense. The result is that the party and or candidates who favor gun control will probably do better in the cities then in the rural communities.

Apply this to politics outside the two-party system;

The modest success that the Green Party had had in some local city races, is largely a case of moblizing enough voters who want the government to do more in terms of civil rights and social justice issues. Likewise if the Libertarian Party has won local races, its probably been by getting enough voters who want the government to do much less.

Notice that idealogical based third parties -- Green, Constitution, Communist Socialist, Libertarian -- probably have never do too well in the state, beyond certain local or legislative races.

The Independence Party generally appeals to educated and profesisional voters who are socially moderate to liberal, but are more conservative, more anti-tax, more balance budgets when it comes to money matters. They also tend to have an interest in things such as Instant Runoff Voting.