While President Bush and the congress ponder just what sort of stimulus package will be best, the Democratic presidential candidates are lining up with their own plans for fixing our faltering economy. Unfortunately, I haven't heard any of them talking about the root cause and subsequently the only solution to this problem. And that is the absolutely vital need to eliminate our debt.
You've heard that we've borrowed billions from China, Japan, and others. But the reality is that most of the debt our country has accumulated is from our countries own financial institutions. And that is where the problem is. The sub prime crisis is real and very worrisome, but it's the lack of liquid assets that has the finance industry against the wall. And the biggest reason for this lack of liquidity is that the Republicans tax cuts combined with the most out of control spending spree in our history has put us in the deepest level of debt we've ever seen.
"The best way to help our economy is to keep taxes low." This is what the Republican presidential candidates are saying about this alarming down turn. McCain is convinced the economy will just "bounce back." Unfortunately he doesn't say how that would happen. Thompson says we just need to wait and the market will correct itself. And Romney said that when he sees a down turn in the markets, he sees it as a possible buying opportunity. Wow, what a bunch of idiots. McCain seems to think if we rub a magic lamp, all will be well. And I wonder if Thompson realizes that he said the same thing Hoover said in 1929. And Romney sees a slumping market as an opportunity to screw people. No wonder 48% of Americans say they trust the Democrats more on the economy compared to 32% who are with the Republicans. (Reuters)
I'm not surprised the Republicans are trying to paint such a rosy picture. After all, this has happened on their watch. But the Democrats don't seem to be on point either. And this IS surprising because eliminating the debt was one of Bill Clinton's biggest issues back in 1992. Even that long winded dullard Bill Bradley knew this. All the stimulus packages and Republican tax cuts will amount to nothing but band aid fixes. We simply have to stop borrowing money to operate our government. Lowering taxes can't help if you're just going to borrow money and keep on spending as usual. That approach ends up being a double whammy because not only do you have to borrow the money keep going, you have to pay compounded interest on it as well.
The only answer is to raise taxes until the debt is eliminated and then pass a balanced budget amendment to the constitution. And if we want to send troops somewhere, congress will be required to raise taxes to pay for it. I'd like to see how many Republicans would be so willing to march off to war if they actually had to pay for it rather than deferring the bill to our grandchildren.
The bottom line here folks is that we HAVE to learn to live within our means. I know there are a lot of arguments for the practice. But I've never been able to see the logic in paying twice the amount for something or more just for the alleged convenience of being allowed to pay it off in payments. How else do you think the powers that be were able to price things like houses and automobiles so far beyond virtually anyone's ability to buy accept by financing it?
Paying off the debt is the only and absolutely vital answer to this crisis. Anything else is just whistling against the wind.
*************
Devin Barber, Politics Correspondent
Devin's column, "Left Of The Right" published weekly or more to Gather Essentials: Politics is a Blue Collar Democrats take on current political news.
Devin was raised by proud Roosevelt Democrats. Being the son of parents counted among the throng of Americans displaced by the Great Depression has given Devin a deep rooted passion for causes dealing with the poor and the working class.
You can find all of Devin's columns at http://gather.com/leftoftheright
You can keep up with Devin's postings and his Gather activity by joining his Gather network. Just click here: http://kiwina58.gather.com and then select the orange "Connect" button on the left-hand side of the page.
You can find Devin and other Political Correspondents, plus celebrity content and plenty of other politics experts at Politics.gather.com.
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Comments: 67
"And if we want to send troops somewhere, congress will be required to raise taxes to pay for it. I'd like to see how many Republicans would be so willing to march off to war if they actually had to pay for it rather than deferring the bill to our grandchildren."
Incidentally, Senator Obama voted against a recent effort to raise the national debt limit. He is in favor of more transparency when it comes to government spending. Furthermore, he is against all the no-bid contracts (many, if not most, of which have been granted to Bush cronies).
You're right, Devin. These points need to be discussed - and not just during debates - but on the campaign trail.
I fear that Romney's solution would be to layoff a bunch of Americans, in order to cut costs.
I don't think raising taxes is the right way to handle this.
Reducing taxes on the lowest earners, raising taxes on the highest earners, and getting rid of the $97k taxable income cap for social security will be a good start.
Reducing corporate welfare would help; as would getting rid of tax breaks to corporations for hiring imported employees, tax breaks for moving factories overseas, and tax breaks for outsourcing jobs off of our shores, would all help too.
Bringing manufacturing and tele-service industry jobs back to our shores will help; and the economic stimulation by Edwards idea of stimulating massive growth in "Green" sector jobs will also help significantly.
If the economy grows, the amount of taxes taken in grows without actually having to raise any tax rates.
Raise taxes on those earning over $250 K. Fix AMT so it doesn't hit the middle class. Eliminate corporate loopholes. Raise the cap on Social Security. Get out of Iraq! Find a way to help people in foreclosure renegotiate the terms of their loans. Put a Democrat in charge. Keep the estate tax for estates in excess of $2 million.
Rather than give a rebate to taxpayers, what would happen if the states got money to fix up the infrastructure? Jobs for Americans using American equipment fixing roads and bridges for Americans to use.
Besides, Devin, you still haven't read my book so you still don't understand the root cause of problems such as these and most of our other problems. Once you understand the basic causes, not just the symptoms, you can uinderstand what changes are necessary to eliminate the problems.
I beg you to read "Invisible Hand" published here on Gather. It will take some time and it will make you think and give you a new perspective that you have never been exposed to before but if you have the courage you can do it.
Good perspective, Devin. Thanks, as always!
The Concord Coalition echoed your opinion today: http://www.concordcoalition.org/press/2008/080123release-cbo-budget-economic-outlook.htm
I have supported their organization on and off over the years. They were co-founded by the late MA Senator Paul Tsongas. Sen. Tsongas gained traction in the Democratic nomination fight in 1992 primarily by focusing on the need to eliminate the budget deficit. Gov. Clinton was NOT focusing on that during the campaign. It was AFTER he was elected that he faced the reality of the situation, realized that a lot of Tsongas' ideas were wise, and took on the deficit, with great results. (Remember, the Republicans said the Clinton plan was going to be an economic disaster.)
I remember this because deficit reduction was the issue that got me working - hard - on the Tsongas campaign. I again believe that deficit reduction requires our attention and action!
"Paying off the debt suddenly would greatly constrict the money supply thus driving us even deeper into recession."
With all due respect, you're just plain wrong here. Paying off the debt will free up trillions in lendable cash. This would have a much more substantial effect on the economy than a rebate to consumers. You're always hearing about the 800 pound gorilla in the room? Well, having a nation the size of the United States borrowing money to operate is like having a 800 scrillion pound gorilla in the room. It just dort of sucks the air out of everything.
Excellent! It's long past time for us to learn that tax breaks are ridiculous when we are mired in nine trillion dollars of long term indebtedness! We are in the process of passing this on to our grandkids rather than paying for it ourselves.
Is this so different from the over indulgent parent who pays for all their child's mistakes and misdeeds rather than letting them pony up and learn? It looks quite the same to me but Republicans don't go for "tough love" on this one!
I too would rather see lower U.S. debt but is it such an emergency? Or just an excuse for you to bash Bush!
I think it the latter! ;-)
I found this great little primer on the debt and deficit, now its a little dated and the graphics are poor but it was produced for 9-12 graders so even the college proffessors and reformed civil servants should be able to understand it.
http://ecedweb.unomaha.edu/ve/library/DEBT.PDF
Another great tool is this chart that shows the debt and it's percentage of the GDP since before WW2
http://www.cedarcomm.com/~stevelm1/debt_gdp.png
Another interesting chart that shows the rise in debt and who was President at the time,
http://www.cedarcomm.com/~stevelm1/us_debt_log.png
Just thought I'd throw this stuff in.
Every economic decision made by the conservative Congress and White House has been targeted at aiding the largest corporations at the expense of small business. Bush says he is supporting business, gives lip service to small business operators, and actually institutes policy that gives the big corporation advantages over the small, and the tiny businesses in the country. The hardest hit are the start ups, like Indian.
First thing we do, we pay off the debt and pass an amendment requiring a balanced budget. (it stands repeating)
Then we outlaw earmarks and enact a line-item veto.
Then we double the earnings cap on Social Security taxes.
Then we set the estate tax floor at 2 million.
Then we burn at the stake the next pinhead who says that tax cuts to the wealthy are good for the economy!
And, if you give the president a line item veto you have just transferred a massive amount of power from the legislative to the executive branch of government. A president would look at each bill as a smorgasbord and the budget would be crafted, not along lines defined by the people through their elected legislators, but just what the president wanted.
The framers of the Constitution debated about giving the line item veto to the president and decided against it for good reason. Again, they knew how efficient government worked and didn't want that much efficiency as that becomes closer to totalitarian
Outlawing earmarks would be OK. That would not address the problem but would prevent legislators from "earmarking" some portion of a line item to serve at that legislator's home district. It would not cut the line item, only the control of where it is spent.
I'd favor removing the earnings limitation on payment of Social Security tax!
And I'd go with that figure of two million for the floor of estate taxes.
And I'd burn at the stake anyone who was proposing tax cuts while we still don't have the money to pay for our annual costs plus something on the National Debt!
"Oh, yeah, Dan it's all about bashing Bush. Yeah, right."
Jeannie,
If its Devin posting it is ALL about bashing Bush!
Karl,
The vast majority of small businesses are sole propritorships or partnerships, the Presidents tax cuts enacted at the beginning of his term were directed at them, to help small business owners keep more of their money and thereby enabling them to grow and hire more workers.
One company's "best sales month" doesn't say much, how were the preceding 10?
Dan,
I wouldn't agree that EVERYTHING I write amounts to Bush bashing, but in this case you are absolutely correct. And I am completely UNapologetic about too. I don't care who was behind them; Bush 43', Reagan, or even back when JFK did it, huge tax cuts for the wealthy is a scam and it always ends up in an economic crisis that in turn ends up in taxes being raised so that revenues are more in line with spending. But BUsh is a special case. This guy has taken incompetence to a new, lower level. His obtuse arrogance defies reason and his ideolgy has thrown our nations international reputation into the toilet. In my judgement we have never seen a president MORE deserving of being bashed.
After the current hack job by Mr and Mrs Clinton, she will look too sleezy to get elected by the mainstream public.
So, John McCain, Republican-lite gets elected, and we spend even more.
Tell me what the economic crisis is?
Low unemployment?
Dropping housing market after record growth for years?
Sure we should be working on balancing the U.S. budget but that hasn't happened since 6 freshmen republicans forced it to happen during Clinton's reign.
Bush, daddy Bush, Reagan, JFK, Woodrow Wilson. All cut taxes and all brought about greater revenue to the government coffers.
Your problem is that you don't think it is "fair" it doesn't matter if it works or not its just NOT fair.
It's your continued crusade against the evil rich and evil corporations.
But wait a minute, raise taxes on those you think are evil and you also hurt a lot of small business owners and small businesses account for almost half of employment in our country.
Oh well as long as you get an avenue for your hate.
All those who cut taxes and brought more money to the government did not once bring in as much more as the tax cuts took out! Fair, not fair, or whatever, there should be no general tax cuts until we have sufficient tax revenue to cover the year's expenses and pay a little at least, on the national long term indebtedness! To do otherwise is dishonest, pandering, buying votes with others money and just plain irresponsible! Any person advocating that is not to be trusted because of a character flaw!
How about making your pay go farther by reducing it? That's sure to work! I don't doubt that some of the difference can be from cutting outgo but not enough to be significant or it would have been done years ago! Both Democrat and Republican has tried their best but people don't agree on what they want to cut.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/editorials/2006-02-20-debate-oppose_x.htm
"Ever since the Senate approved the last major tax relief bill, in 2003, revenues have increased every year. In 2004, they went up 5.5%. Last year, they rose 14.5%, the largest increase in nearly 25 years."
"In 2000 and 2001, the end of the dot-com bubble, the 9/11 attacks and a series of corporate scandals sent the economy into a tailspin. During the downturn, high taxes limited economic growth and kept receipts down. Although Americans were making some of the largest per-household tax payments in our nation's history, revenues plummeted in 2002 and 2003."
"Republicans' decision to reduce taxes on capital gains and dividends provides a good case study in effective tax policy. When we enacted these measures in 2003, the Congressional Budget Office estimated that revenues would decline by $27 billion over the next two years. Instead, it turned out that the tax cut stimulated investment and increased revenues by $26 billion — a $53 billion difference."
"Dan it seems like you and the other Bush defenders are the ones steeped in hate. Chill."
You base this on what?
Most Americans are oblivious as to what the "FED" is. Let me bring you up to speed on it. In 1913, when most of Congress was on Christmas vacation. Woodrow Wilson rammed through the Federal Reserve Act. A 100% unConstitutional act that gave the money supply control to the PRIVATE Federal Reserve Bankers! This was the Rothchilds of England, the Rockefellers..etc..of the USA.
That single act destroyed our monetary system forever! Prior to 1913, where did our dollars come from? The came from notes printed by our treasury, and backed by gold. As the economy expanded, they would print more money to supply the need for it in a growing country. The cost to Americans to do this? Zero!! Or possibly very low inflation as the money supply grew.
After the Federal Reserve Act...where did our Government get it's money? They now had to borrow it at interest from the private Federal Reserve Bankers! See a problem with this? Now, the American public had to pay interest on our OWN money supply! An ingenuis and devilish idea! The overwhelming majority of our country's debt is FALSE ILLEGAL debt to an illegal banking system run by the world bank. Even The Bank of England has no government ties...all 100% owned and operated by private bankers!
Picture your credit card company telling you that you are maxed out, but in order to STIMULATE you, and your buying power, they will give you $10,000 more credit, and lower the rate 1/4 percent. You are broke, and owe 30k in debt...but you need money to spend...so you spend it at the slightly lower rate...you stimulate the economy a bit by buying, but now you are 40k in debt!!!
We could simply eliminate the Federal Reserve Bank once and for all, and end OUR DEBT system we operate under here once and for all! Unfortunately, they now own the majority of politicians, the majority of ALL media, and the majority of Banks! Has anyone even heard ONE followup news broadcast on the 8 or 10 BILLION in cash we shipped to Iraq, and then it just disappeared? As far as I'm concerned, any American who wastes even 10 minutes watching ANY mainstream media each day is braindead!
The massive private army we support in Iraq is a complete debacle...the more money they spend, the more profit they make! and massive amount of this money come back to lawmakers in the end. So, war is profitable for our politicians!
Bush and Cheney, and Rice, and a multitude of others should be on trial for war crimes against humanity at this moment! Why are they not? Because the World Bank controls every aspect of our lives now. The news we get, the congress, lobbyists, campaigns, and even elections now that we have electronic voting machines!
Every time the FED lowers the interest rate in order to "Stimulate" the economy...our US dollar is worth less in world markets! Inflation does not exist! Inflation is actually devaluation of our dollars! This is really bad for consumers since we import a massive amount of goods...the main one being oil. The US public actually OWNS the largest oil reserve on the planet! Huh? Yes, we do...it is on the north slope of Alaska...the largest oil reserve EVER discovered on this planet! WE ALL OWN IT!!! It is on Federal Property!
Why are we not tapping it? Because the government is in cahoots with big oil, and they want to save it until we are paying 5$ a gallon! For oil we own!!! The amount of corruption in state, local, and federal governments is at an all time high at the moment, and the amount of dissention is at an all time low! Every single American should have skipped work the day they passed the unPatriotic ACT!!!, and said..NOOOO!!! WE will not accept it!!!
The Average American has no idea of what massive laws we now have AGAINST us and our freedom in this country! For example..drug laws! Our government has zero right to enforce any laws against any one of us using any drug we please! We spend hundreds of billions on the war on drugs, and for nothing! It is a war without end!
Vote me into office, and the budget will be balanced in 6 months. Most federal departments will vanish forever! The Federal Reserve would be declared unConstitutional once and for all, and the bankers would lose ALL fake loans made to the US. The military will be scaled way back, and all foreign occupations ended! The borders will be secured. Illegal immigrants will have one year to leave the country, or be deported, and apply for citizenship the right way. Federal income taxes will be phased out eventually. Tariffs will be reinstated on imported goods. Formal apologies would be sent to all countries that our CIA fucked up in the past! US companies would receive a massive influx of aid to revive our LOST manufacturing. We would be making computers, new energy devices!!! ETC!
The ultra wealthy would pay a one time tax on all assets of about 75% of their assets to cover unfair tax laws in the past! Okay, so Bill Gates loses about 75 billion! 25 billion should tide him over! Lobbying would be outlawed once and for all! Pork spending would be 100% outlawed, and a new citizens commitee would be voted in local elections to have 100% control over congress for checks and balances.
100% public news channels would be established to crush the existing fake news channels we have, and these channels would be watched over by the citizens commitee also. Federal Government would be shrunk to at least 1/10th the size it is now..maybe more. Drug laws would be removed...jails would be emptied of drug offenders....psychiatric hospitals would be opened for folks with drug, and mental problems.
ALL Constitutional rights would be reinstated with a clause that NO future government can change them! The FREE media would show documentaries on how we let banks take over our government in the past! They would sho wdocumentaries on how the government was willing to kill Americans in order to fight illegal wars. The truth would be shown to all Americans to absorb.
Sure, it's an impossible dream, but we are all controlled 100% by the ultrawealthy bankers of the world right now. It does not matter who you vote for. They know they will be killed if they oppose the World Bankers. JFK spoke out against these evil doers, and it got him very dead very quickly, and his brother Bobby was right behind him! I'm not saying the Kennedys were perfect...they had lots of skeletons in their closet, but I do believe that JFK wanted to distance our government from bankers control.
You wonder why England is our closest ally? It is because the Rothchilds own the Bank of England, and a huge portion of our Federral Reserve Bank! Banks control the world...not politicians. They are just puppets to the banks now. Think about it..who has the most power over most of us? The ones who hold the mortgage on our house!
Debt creates massive power! A country in debt is a slave to the debtor! 'The land of the Free, and the Home of the Brave" is now a joke!!! We are the land of the debt ridden slaves, and the home of the oppressed"! You can thank Woodrow wilson for this! he even stated towards the end of his presidency..."I fear I have destroyed my country's freedom forever!" He did! The federal income tax was unConstitutionally voted in to pay the new interest we had on our new debt...a debt we never needed ever!!!!
We presently have THE most corrupt government on this planet by a long shot. We enter into false wars on a massive scale. We spend massive amounts on 100% unecessary NATIONAL DEFENSE against nobody! No country on this planet will attack us! We hardly even need a Navy or Walking army! We have nukes!!!!
Yes, we need a strong NATIONAL DEFENSE to make MASSIVE amounts of money for defense contractors, and ZERO for our soldiers!!!! I could balance our budget in one day! Cut all military defense spending except for our soldier's needs! We could have them all living a good life then!!! We need zero soldiers in any foreign country right now! Let Iraq have their country back, and fix it themselves. we have already killed about 600k innocent, and not so innocent folks there. I call that murder! The murderers include George Bush, Collin Powel, Rice, Rumsfeld, Cheney, and all the underlings who faked the war....
You can't tax yourself out of a recession.
http://www.investopedia.com/terms/l/laffercurve.asp
It's the spending. Whether you are a Democrat or a Republican. Increased government supported health care, increasing who can get "S Chip", government supported subscription drug programs, Social Security, the list goes on.
Everyone wants more governement and wants someone else to pay for it or wants to pay a little while someone else pays a lot.
I swear I don't know where these Republicans want things to go. Do they think a government can operate with zero revenue. Or is it that they actually think society can go on without any government at all.
Bush and the Republicans shoved this tax cut down our throats and now our econmy is the toilet. And now without exception, all the Repub candidates say the way to fix the economy is to lower taxes. Really? That's like saying that after you punch a hole in the roof and it starts leaking, that the way to fix the leak is to knock another hole in the roof. See Winston, this is why you Repubs don't make any sense to us Dems.
"Bush and the Republicans shoved this tax cut down our throats and now our econmy is the toilet."
Can you prove your point that the tax cuts are the reason for our problems with any other than anecdotal evidence.
Or any of your previous examples of tax cuts?
I have posted facts that show that tax cuts can indeed raise revenue.
Can any of you liberals provide any facts to dispute what I have posted (beyond you opinion that is)?
As to Devin's article - These repugs are completely nutso. Tell me please everyone, would you borrow money to pay your credit card debt down?
Of course you wouldn't! Doing that would only increase your debt. No one in their right mind would ever consider borrowing money to pay down debt because it only increases your total debt owed. It's completely insane thinking. And ever since Reagan, and especially dureing Bushco this is what the repubs keep doing to our country. Now they've got us in a financial hole that we will never be able to crawl out of.
These repugs keep repeating that tax cuts are good, but tell me, if that's the case, then why is our infrastructure failing? why are jobs fleeing? why are our major corporations going off-shore?
Taxes go to pay for the things the American people need! Repairing our infrastructure, supporting health care for everyone, a free education where teachers are paid what they should be earning, a government that works for its people. Without taxes we would have no money to pay for anything! Why can't these nutty repugs get this?
Hmmm, as I look at a chart of U.S. revenues including when he took office,
http://www.heritage.org/research/features/budgetchartbook/charts_R/r2.cfm
it shows a drastic dip starting in 2000, before George W. Bush took office.
This drop was fueled by the "dot com" bust and continued with 9-11, then in 2003 President Bush's tax cuts kick in and the revenues begin to climb back to and beyond the previous level.
BTW I didn't find any references that the "great depression" was caused by tax cuts.
Do you have any?
Regan Tax cuts,
http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=1120&full=1
"On 8 of the 10 key economic variables examined, the American economy performed better during the Reagan years than during the pre- and post-Reagan years.
Real economic growth averaged 3.2 percent during the Reagan years versus 2.8 percent during the Ford-Carter years and 2.1 percent during the Bush-Clinton years.
Real median family income grew by $4,000 during the Reagan period after experiencing no growth in the pre-Reagan years; it experienced a loss of almost $1,500 in the post-Reagan years.
Interest rates, inflation, and unemployment fell faster under Reagan than they did immediately before or after his presidency.
The only economic variable that was worse in the Reagan period than in both the pre- and post-Reagan years was the savings rate, which fell rapidly in the 1980s. The productivity rate was higher in the pre-Reagan years but much lower in the post-Reagan years."
Yes, revenues went up and removed part of what was lost by the tax cuts. Growth added in was the factor bringing revenues up more. To determine the actual increase from the stimulus alone one must factor out the growth as that would have been there without the tax cuts.
Think logically, if tax cuts always increased revenues, all we need to do is remove all taxes and we'll be rolling in the largess or what the government can do with all the excess money. And I'll bet when your own budget gets tight you go to your employer and ask for a pay cut!
This idea that we can substantially increase revenue with tax cuts is a myth that has been perpetrated by persons who have used selective information in an attempt to substantiate their push for tax cuts.
Like I've said before, if we have more money coming in to the government than we need to cover the budget and something on the long term indebtedness, then it's time for a general tax cut! Until then, any politician pushing for a tax cut is simply pander to a select constituency or trying to buy votes at the expense of th nation.
Money spent to service the national debt now goes to people and places out of this country and is lost to our economy! Are you comfortable with us borrowing from red China? I'm not!
"This idea that we can substantially increase revenue with tax cuts is a myth that has been perpetrated by persons who have used selective information in an attempt to substantiate their push for tax cuts."
Do you have any facts that refute what I have posted?
Do your own research or just use a little common sense on that one. Like I said, in that mythical world we could flood ourselves with money by eliminating all taxes. Does that sound logical to you?
As I suspected nothing to refute my FACTS!
No matter your repeating "tax cuts don't work" over and over, evidence over rules your opinion!
Yours is NOT common sense rather delusion in not willing to accept fact.
First, you cited no FACTS if that must be capitalized. You gave me an opinion, held by you and certain others and which they try hard to sell. Sure, tax cuts stimulate and increase revenues but the also reduce revenues from the lost taxes. And the loss is always greater than the increase. It's simple economics!
If you repeat the mantra over and over "tax cuts raise total revenue" you'll actually start to believe it! I have to repeat, if we eliminate all taxes the government would be drowning in excess revenue by that standard. You're plenty smart enough to know that is absurd! But if you want to believe it I apologize for bursting your bubble. Go look it up.
I don't have link to where someone said it and those prove nothing. I lived through every tax cut from Kennedy on. And I know what it did to the federal budget each time and that was a reduction in total revenue. But go ahead and tell people what you know is absurd, that less money coming in means more money on hand. Many will believe you.
up debt, to as Grover Norquist says, make government
so broke and weak that it can be drowned in a bathtub.
They ain't kidding.
To that end when the crisis comes only the rich will be
able to survive intact, the rest of you might as well be
illegal aliens, except illegal aliens will have the advantage
that they will not have DNA IDs and chips inside them.
America is rushing towards a controlled reckoning
that is really going to be ugly, and for good.
tax yield ... a theoretical curve that says at 0 taxes people
make lots of money and business prospers. At 100% no
one wants to do anything because there's no incentive,
and somewhere in the middle is an optimum. There is
a lot of talk to say what that is, but I think Devin is right,
that is not the question anymore, can the US sustain an
economy and a government with the debt and interest
payments along with oil imports and foreign products?
The answer is not forever, and the reckoning is going to
fall on the American taxpayer. Somewhere somehow
someday Americans are going to have no choice but
to look at each others are fellow sufferers and stand
up and take back the country. Then, we either pay off
the huge burden of the debt, or we default and the
world stops selling to us, or hates us or maybe
attacks us.
A balanced budget amendment is not going to be possible.
Bil Clinton cut the deficit, we just need more of that, and
we need to be aware that in the next 20 years, just as
a lot of social costs in Medicare, Social Security are going to
come due the Republicans are at some point going to say
we are broke, and someone need to get defaulted on.
This is the most irrepsonsible of actions, and to avoid
WWIII it is going to end up being the American people,
and all these social programs are going to go away.
I don't know what this country is going to look like
at that point but it won't be anything I recognize as
America.
Excuse me James,
You are welcome to post numbers that contradict what I have posted, and that is what you need to do to prove my position in error.
All of your postulating won't prove my FACTS in error.
You don't have any evidence either than your own rantings. If you throw a lit match on a pile of dry straw and the straw catches on fire, I think it's pretty safe to say the match caused the fire. The fact that major tax cuts are inevitably followed several years later by a fawltering economy IS evidence Danny Boy. I know you THINK revenues are up, but that's just Republicans lying to you. But I forgot, only Democrats lie and Republicans are all annointed saints. HA!!!
Bruce,
You paint a pretty bleak picture of our future. Luckily you're completely wrong. I've been hearin how Social Security and Medicare are going to somehow fail and go away all my life. I remember back in the 1970's listening to Republican pronounce how these programs were doomed and would be gone by the year 2000. Well, here we are in 2008 and gee, seems like they were wrong. Bottom line Bruce is that the future is what we decide it will be, barring a giant meteor striking the planet. I predict that in the future these programs will be better.
No, No, No Devin you are ranting because you can not back up your own position.
I simply let the facts I post speak for themselves.
You on the other hand can not provide facts to back up your opinions so you rant!
"The fact that major tax cuts are inevitably followed several years later by a fawltering economy IS evidence Danny Boy."
Damn those pesky charts, graphs and figures, they show your feeble theory is only valid in your mind and not a reality.
Earmarks are a major problem, in general, but there are rare occasions where one is used to conver an inequity. How about requiring that legislation be "one subject"? No more olive farms on a defense bill ...
> Bruce,
> You paint a pretty bleak picture of our future.
> Luckily you're completely wrong.
Great news Devin. Now I can forget about the whole thing.
But seriously, I also have heard about the impending doom
of social programs. My point is not that the right has tried
to gut them, but the right does not go away and their
strategies change and adapt ... apparently unlike the
left.
It is a recent strategy, since Reagan to build up a deficit.
Old style fiscal conservative Republicans even tried to stop
it and alarm people about it, and it has gone up and down
since. Now Republicans are very clear about their strategy,
and there is not talk of a counter-strategy by the Democrats.
The latest I have heard is that Democrats are now unwilling
to go out on a limb to balance the budget either because
what we see happening is the Republicans spend and implement
their agenda while Democrats put their agendas on hold to
do the right thing and balance the budget.
This is how sick American politics have become, a grudge
match to the brink with the American people caught in the
middle. Who thinks the people are benefitting from this?
I know you don't Devin.
So while I appreciate that it is unimaginable to you
that social programs will go away, I think you need to
read up on military strategy a bit to realize that the
attacks that are the most devastating and demoralizing
and permanent usually come unexpected from a direction
no one ever though of.
When faced with a worldwide crisis of economic debt, the
lights going off nationally or war, I think Americans will
turn on the weaker of us, particularly if that is what we
have been psychologically primed to do and there is a
easy path to follow put in front of us and the Republicans
behind us kicking us from behind.
You've presented no facts that I've seen. Your opinion, which you are fully entitled to, is great, but it doesn't replace facts. I've seen the numbers, although not recently. I've read analysis's of the tax cuts. They remain like I said.
The links you offered certainly didn't support your claim that less is more. The first one pointed out that we raised taxes in 1993 and the economy rebounded and revenue climbed. The second Showed the Clinton years as increasing the debt slightly while Bush has radically increased it with tax cuts, and his own private war. The third simply reaffirmed what the second showed. If cutting taxes always makes revenue go up why didn't increasing them make revenues go down? Think about it!
Hoover, this is getting tedious and you'll continue to believe a myth if you wish, so please carry on! It's been fun.
And have a great day!
So the economy did not sink in the 1930's following Wilson's tax cuts, or sink in the late 1960's after JFK's tax cuts, or sink during Bush I's term after Reagan's tax cuts, and of course the current down turn isn't happening either after Bush II's tax cuts. You can read all the charts and listen to all the Republican lies you want, it doesn't change the FACTS. Stop acting like the facts are your side when they are NOT!!!
Here is a link to information about tax cuts including what the federal budget office, Allen Greenspan, and the current chairman of the Fed have to say.
www.senate.gov/~budget/democratic/charts/2006/
packet_DynamicScoring062006.pdf
This site concerns actual revenues over the years following tax cuts. Had to bread it in two.
Considering all that has been written concerning the "great depression" you should be able to find one professional who thinks it was caused by tax cuts. If indeed there is any who believes so.
James,
Your link didn't work.
To you facts can only qualify as facts if YOU say they are facts. I can only assume that you are incredibly wealthy and feel a great need to defend your right NOT to share the load in our society. The facts are that we have a country to run and that takes money. How much money depends on how much we want to do. The problem comes from elected officials who want to spend at a level that exceeds revenues. Which brings us to the point of this article, and that is the Federal debt. And we have that debt because big tax cuts are never followed by the spending cuts Modernday correctly calls for.
Look guys, the American people expect this country to be run at a certain level. That requires a certain amount of money. The problem with tax cut politicians is that they refuse to tell the truth about that and use the very attractive idea of "tax cuts" to get themselves elected. That's why I advocate a balanced budget amendment. That way any tax cuts would require spending mitigation. And when I say mitigation I mean that any spending cuts must not put an undue burden on those it will effect. It takes more than just cutting spending, it's going to take SMARTER spending. I happen to believe we could do as much or more than we're doing right now with current revenues if we would just use more sense in the way we do things. Like cost-plus government contracts are obscene wastes of money.
> But that is just a scary thought to socialists.
Now George W. is a socialist I guess.
I don't think we need the hassle of a balanced budged
amendment if we increased the progessitivity of taxes
when we are in deficit spending so that the rich pay
progressively more instead of making money off the
deal, everyone would be falling all over themselves to
balance the budget.
To you facts can only qualify as facts if YOU say they are facts."
Devin,
Here are some words and their definitions to help you understand better.
Fact,
Knowledge or information based on real occurrences:
Something demonstrated to exist or known to have existed.
Evidence,
To indicate clearly; exemplify or prove.
To support by testimony; attest.
It is NOT enough to believe something is real, many believe if bigfoot but that doesn't mean they really exist.
I had to post the link in two sections, add the bottom half to the first part. I just tried it and it does work.
I believe that that link addresses your call for professionals who say tax cuts won't increase revenues, as well as some documentation. That is, if you'll accept Allen Greenspan, the current head of the Fed, and the director of the Office of Management and Budget as professionals.