LM commented on my poetry blog saying, "this is what confuses me about poetry. [Your poem] “Learning” looked like nothing more than a short story that was broken up into short lines. No rhyming (and I realize that not all poetry has to rhyme), the blocks were all different sizes, and there was no beat or meter to it."
Here's what Poetry.org has to say about poetry in contrast to prose: Poetry can be differentiated most of the time from prose, which is language meant to convey meaning in a more expansive and less condensed way, frequently using more complete logical or narrative structures than poetry does.
Additionally, this same site tells us that poetry is an art form that utilizes language for its intrinsic beauty rather than, or in addition to, its functional and pragmatic properties.
I believe, as I'm sure many of you do, that well-written prose contains poetic, lyrical language. The defining line between the two is blurred and subjective. So what is it that confuses LM? His sense of what "should" be considered prose is called poetry to me.
Why do I think "Learning" is poetry? Because it's not logical and easily connected by a linear line. Because in fact it links very dissociative events (Arabic, ordinary day-to-day events, and death) into a cohesive story. Repetition is a literary device especially in poetry and I use it as I return to Arabic words throughout the piece. And because it contains snapshots of thoughts--therefore it is condensed--that all lead up to the central idea, which is fate.
I appreciate LM's comments; I asked for them specifically. His questions help me to chose my own words more intentionally. His befuddlement drives home, for me, the dire need of at least some poetry to be very accessible.
I also understand LM's poetic trouble. I experience the same thing regarding dance. I love to dance. I really do! But when I have attended dance presented on stage and written a review, I must rely on observation without interpretation because I do not understand dance. It's a mystery to me. But I love to see a dancer's body create an emotion with movement alone. I leave the hall in admiration.
This week's WWE prompts:
- use an outlandish interjection
- include a quote from another literary source (and be sure to cite the source at the end of your piece or via a hot link)
- use the word "dance"
- convey at least two emotions
I add Tirariwen above to share that what many of us might think of musicians can be very conventional in comparison to this band from the Sahara desert.
And I add Dobet Gnahoré from the Ivory Coast because she's a stunning dancer who danced with the dance company Tché Tché before launching her career as a musician.
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Comments: 48
And I forgot to remind you to tag your submissions with WWE. I click on that tag throughout the week so that I can find your piece and comment on it.
I've wondered about deadlines Susan. I've finished (subjective term...) a few of your prompts in the wee hours of the following morning and decided to just have enjoyed the process, rather than submit late.
Your writing prompts have been wonderful. Hope to tackle this one in a more timely fashion. Thank you for all of your effort.
tag it and I'll get to it eventually. :-) And if the next Wednesday comes around and I haven't commented on a prior submission, let me know. I must have missed it.
Learning,changing a flat and penny caught...I love all of them,Susan.Thanks for the link.A special comment can create such informative article.Your emphasis on constructive comments is good.You responded LM well...!
LM sounds like the School Teachers I went to school with. So stick in the mud about properties they miss the basic beauty of poetry; the Words.
I'm afraid if that's what you took from my post, Dan, I've misrepresented LM. I only quoted a small piece of what he said to me. Personally, I was and am honored that he took the time and interest to carefully read my work and that he also made the effort to get back to me about it.
I have nothing but respect for his opinion and response.
Then maybe I misread what you have said.
I'm glad, Dan, that we both are quick to jump in and reconsider our words. I admit that I was concerned that LM would feel I'd slighted him because of what I wrote. I *did not* intend any slight, but I can see how that might have been implied.
I really should have been clearer and I appreciate your comment in the first place. It helps me to see how my words are interpreted. Careful writing is so important.
Speaking as a fellow "stick in the mud" (and I took no offense lol), we appreciate the basic beauty of poems. We do not understand the properties of what makes a peom. Am learning. Not there yet. lol
I am like "LM" in that I have a total lack of understanding of poetry. I've written three poems in my life and the only one that I'd ever share with anyone is one which I wrote as a joke after stepping in... uh, something in the back yard one October.
Winter is winter and spring is spring.
Summer is summer, but autumn is fall.
Why?
I rake the leaves and watch more FALL.
I bag the leaves and watch more FALL.
I rake more leaves and still they FALL.
The dog squats and I see something else FALL.
I smell the musty aroma of rotting leaves.
I step in something and have a souvenier of FALL.
Now I know why it's called FALL.
So, does that qualify as poetry?
It's been a while, Len, since I've read my How To Talk So Kids Will Listen and Listen So Kids Will Talk by Adele Faber and Elaine Mazlish, but it's a bible of a book when it comes to parenting.
In it, I learned about giving praise to kids and helping them to develop their own self-praising techniques. So when a child comes to me holding up artwork and exclaiming, "Look what I did!" my response isn't "What a beautiful picture of a bird!" but rather, "Wow. You are glowing! Did you work hard on that project?"
The child then thinks to self, "Yeah, I am glowing. I'm proud of this picture of a submarine. Yeah! I did work hard on it!" Or conversely, "Huh? I'm glowing? Well, I just ran all over the house looking for mom, so maybe I'm sweaty. And nah, I didn't work hard on this picture."
Either way, the parent only gave observation, not a value statement and the child make his or her own interpretations based on the information from the parent.
I'm being long-winded, I know. :-) So to your piece above, Len, I say, Hey! You used repetition and a sort of rhyme. You included sensory language. Was this piece something sudden for you or did you write and revise for a long time?
You get to determine what it is. Poetry? Prose? Your piece, your choice.
Others can have opinions and even state them out loud, but no one can determine *for you* what you've written. When people do that, they're carping and I've no time for that.
Art is subjective. Art is personal. Until you seek publication.
Upon thinking this over, I sincerely hope you didn't feel that I was equating my response to you as if you were a child. No, no, no. :-) I think that value statements belong attached to non-subjective, non-artsy things "Does your dog bite?" "Cujo, here? He's a sweetie, never bit off more than he could chew. Sweetest dog you'll ever meet."
I just read your poem, Learning. What an incredible poem.
Sometimes the subtleties of poetry, even poetry within a prose form are very subtle and more difficult to describe the difference than to perceive that they are different, and beautifully so.
Featured in the Triple Name Club.
This is a helpful post. Thanks.
I'll give it a try (I'm very used to revision, lol!) and this one sounds so interesting. Thanks again, Susan, for another great writing prompt.
When I was learning, if it did not rhyme every other line, my teachers claimed it was not poetry.
Today were are much freer to express meanings.
Sharon, you don't look 300 years old! :-) Walt Whitman is considered one of the earliest of poets to ditch the rhyme and formalities of poetry. He lived from 1819 - 1892, well before you or your teacher were even humming. Here's one of his non-rhyming poems.
True, but I'm not sure about those two teachers. They insisted that only rhymes were poetry. How I felt stifled till I left their English classes behind. I'm only 68. Your right there.
Change is very difficult as I'm sure you know, Sharon. How many times I've heard expressed, "My four-year-old coulda done better!" when looking at a piece of modern art.
This is an endless topic: the parameters of what is considered art/poetry/"good". All material for another column. :-)
I first learned that there were other poetry methods at my local library. How free I felt.
Like a bird, I spread my wings
I flew out over a brand new world
Wondrous sights I now did see
A map made by eagles lay before my eyes
Wish I knew how to post pictures within comments. I'd send you a big smile. :-)
Thanks, I think you just did. good enough for me.
I'm printing a copy of this for my own reference. Thank you, Susan!
Susan,
reading your post got me thinking about something I considered during the month of April over at Music Road: the connections, and not, between writing poetry and writing lyrics. Here's a link to the last in a series of four posts, links to earlier ones if you scroll to the bottom.
Kerry, thanks for this link. I will return to it within the next few days.
I love how your prompts bring such a flood of pictures, of memories, of tidbits in life. Always hard to cut it down to just one. (My choice, not your rules.) You're also teaching me how to do "short" - The Walk
Thanks, Lynn. I like short at this time in my life. Everything happens in spurts for me. Maybe when my youngest is 16--in another 7 years--then I'll dig more deeply into long.
I just took a look at Learning. It does look to me like prose with eccentric typography. I don't have any objection to free verse. Heaven knows it was part of my high school English curriculum back when Kennedy was president. It's been around for a lot longer than I've been alive.
I think that Learning lacks something I can't quite put my finger on that would move it from prose to poetry. There's not a clear dividing line between the two. On the positive side it's devoid of the cliches and ineptly constructed images that litter Gather Poetry™. I like the tone. I'd call it decent writing that's not quite poetry.
I agree with Nippy on this.
I'm no poetry expert, so my perceptions and impressions are simple. I see the piece "Learning" as time-framed musings that were crafted in ways quite nimble. I thoroughly enjoyed the processing of events through individual sieves of symbols; but arguing prose or poetical structure just seems like picking at pimples.
I loved the perceptions which had me reflecting on the loved ones I've lost to cancer.
The prose poked less at the emotional mess; so to me, it was the right answer.
Thanks, Bill's Spirit.
And I have three teenagers so of course I know what happens to picked pimples!! :-0
You also pointed out exactly how I think Learning works *as a poem*. I feel the pacing of the piece creates a mood beyond the pragmatic words themselves and the pacing is achieved through line breaks.
Poetry uses line breaks. Except for prose poetry, which this (Learning) is not.
I think poetry is not for the poetry challenged. And....I deifinitely fit into this catagory. I've read many poems here on Gather, some are undersandable (to me) and some are just a bunch of words stuck together that make no sense whatsoever (to me). I tend to agree with LM some are just stories written in short sentences which makes me think the writer is writing his or her thoughts while heavily medicated. I'm trying to learn and understand, it's difficult when the words at the end of the sentence do not rhyme. It's no wonder that people think of poets as being morose individuals, sometimes their words do not make any sense. Now I shall click over and read a few of your poems and I shall leave a comment hopefully showing how brilliant I am as opposed to how poetry challenged I am.
Hey, how many times a day does one get the oppotunity to use the word morose?
I am hopelessly happy. Now I fear my poetry will suffer as I'm not morose.
I guess I'm lucky; I used morose twice in one comment!
Woo Hoo. What a lucky day.
Your blog wouldnt let me comment, so here are my comments.
The ones I read were the brilliant works of a really great poet (that must be you since you wrote them).....except "Learning" and it was a very interesting short story. But what do I know? I'm a poetry challenged human being and my name is not Bubba either.
I had to look up the term, interjection, I had forgot what it meant. So, thanks very much for providing the link, Susan.
I will work on this piece. And, hopefully finish it very soon.
That word could be misread in a number of way so I like to be clear. :-)
Looking forward to your submission. Tag it with wwe and I'll find it no matter how late in the week you submit. :-)
Uh, when you put out a call for submissions such as this, are you looking for prose, poetry, or either? This whole thread deals with poetry and I ain't gonna go there. Prose, maybe.
I usually write to the prompt using prose. I welcome either and both. It's all good in my book.
I was going to write a bit of a short story, using only 500 words, using the prompt. Is this going to be fine? Or do you really prefer poetry or prose on this one?
I would consider a 500-word story to be prose. That's a nice word-limit. It's a common length for flash fiction contests so it's good practice if you're ever interested in flash-fiction contests. :-)
I have been doing even 100 word stories lately. It is fun trying to convey so little in such a confined space.
And, 500 words is definitely good editing practice for longer stories. To have the smallest amount of info convey what you need is truly best.
Susan, I don't quite understand. Do you want our work here somewhere or on our site with WWE on it?
That was my exact question, Richard, the first time I encountered submission requests here on Gather. What you do is to write a new article and post it. In the part that says "who may view this post" (or something like that), you include Gather Writing Essentials as one of the groups to whom you are publishing.
Let me know if that doesn't clear up the questions. I'll pm you.
You're on the money, Susan, with this analysis of poetry, methinks.
Okay, I finally got the piece done.
I was so wiped out this week!
Here's the link, in case you come back to this post.
GatherWritingEssentials,Wednesday.TheBallet
Finally had a moment to give this a try. Hope you like it: Lost