The past several weeks, ever since twenty little kids became dead little kids, I’ve been watching various and sundry folks casually insulting and dismissing anyone who suggests that guns themselves might be part of the problem when gu
n violence occurs. The constant drumbeat from these yammerheads is that we are all *sneer* lib’ruls, and consequently incapable of critical thought. Said one, “I believe in the constitution and the bill of rights,†as if that answered all. But it doesn’t, you know… not really. What I’ve seen and heard, explicitly and implicitly amounts to, “Kids be damned. Don’t even think of interfering with my ability to buy any gun I want in any configuration I want. And anything you do to try to keep guns out of the bad guys’ hands will affect my gun-buying, and the constitution says you can’t.†Really? It says America can’t do anything to control guns in risky hands because it might make you wait three extra days to get your gun? It says that? Well, we’ll see.
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Y'know what? We liberals believe in things too (although I'm not sure what "believe in" the constitution means). We believe in data, and we believe in the obvious. And when data starts coming together, and the obvious rears its loud and obnoxious visage, we begin to notice things. We notice, f’rinstance, that in the USA there are more guns in private hands (310 million) than there are private hands in which to have guns (fewer than 200 million pairs of adult/older teen hands). In fact, the FBI says that in 1960, there were 190 million guns in private hands. We’ve increased the total by more than 50% in 50 years.
We also notice that thousands of people every year die by gunshot, several groups of them while we debated what to do about guns in the wake of the dead little kids. Somebody did a bit of basic addition with his handy dandy little abacus, and discovered that between 1960 and 2010, more American civilian citizens died of gunshots than died of all causes in all the wars we’ve fought since the inception of the country. And when we look at those two things together, we notice that by golly if there are hundreds of millions of guns out there and hundreds of thousands of people are dying from gunshots, then the guns themselves are a significant part of the problem, notwithstanding asinine slogans about whether the carnage is done by guns or people. The carnage is obviously done by people with guns, and there would unquestionably be a helluva lot less of it if the people committing it didn't have guns. We need to find a way to make that happen, gutless politicians notwithstanding.
It is also self-evident that gun ownership by all and sundry, most of whom have had not a whit of training or the first hint of background check or evaluation of fitness to own a death-dealing weapon, exacerbates the problem. They do not make life safer in general. Someone wrote that the FBI has another statistic that people are (mis)using a lot lately. Violent crime, expressed on a per capita basis, has been reduced by 49% in the last 50 years. Gun fetishists would have us believe that happened simply because the number of guns in private hands increased by a third during that same period. It didn’t, of course. There are a lot of reasons crime waxes and wanes (the median age has increased by 10 years in that same span, for instance), but fear that every house has an armed and ready gun-owner probably doesn’t have a lot to do with that. Besides, guns are involved in a substantial percentage of the crimes that are committed. I'll accept those statistics for now, but this is the only source article I could find, and it really doesn't say that.
Finally, we’re back to our friends the gun fetishists who, when they say they "believe in" the bill of rights, mean the second amendment, and only that part of it that lets them have a gun. As I said in the introduction to this piece, they’re really saying, "Damn your children, and all that you love. If you can't protect them from gun-toting people without making me feel infringed upon, then let 'em die. I wants me guns, of every type, and as many of each as I can afford, without questions, checks or evaluations. Th' Constitution sez I can haz gunz and I wants gunz!"
Yes indeedy, so you say. But I have yet to hear one of you give a cogent reason why gun management has to stop at fully automatic weapons and weapons that fire explosive devices. It seems to me that our regulation of machine guns, bazookas, ack-acks and such argues that we can all have guns, but regulation of those guns is allowed. If I'm wrong, you need to be in court fighting for my right to own a fully operational M-60 (only machine gun I ever fired in anger… and boy was I angry).
Then there’s the argument that goes, “If only one trained person had been there with a gun.†Yeah… about that. I call shenanigans. There was "one trained person" with a gun at Gabby Giffords' shooting. He stood back and watched the guy with the gun keep shooting people because he was afraid he "might" shoot someone. People were being shot deliberately, yet he wouldn’t shoot because he “might.†How many people were shot after he got in position to take a shot, but didn’t? Yessir, having "one trained person" was a big help to Gabby and her constituents. And Colorado is a concealed carry state. I do not believe there was no one in that whole theater crowd in Aurora who was packing. In fact, I’d bet actual money that there was more than one “trained person†in that crowd. But we’ll never prove it because no one took the shot.
In one post, in response to one of my comments, one of the gun guys said, “What Chuck doesn’t get is that criminals don’t obey laws. They won’t get background checks, so having those laws is useless.†Well, as for what "Chuck does not get..." Oh, Chuck gets it, all right. Chuck gets that there is no more specious, asinine and absurd argument against gun regulations than that small bit of dreck. Bad guys will still be bad guys after laws are passed. Well, duh! Yup, they will, but oddly enough, and despite the NRA's apparent advice against any criminal laws whatsoever, we still have laws against murder, rape, robbery, burglary, drivin' off without payin' for gas and frammin' in th' jim-jam. It gives us a specific reason to confiscate stuff and put their skinny butts in th’ pokey. They know goin’ in that they’re in the wrong, and that there are specific charges and punishments that apply.
We also have laws against owning or using a fully automatic weapon, and y'know what? Damned few of the crimes mentioned are committed with fully automatic weapons. As much as you hear about converting semi-autos to full, it just doesn't happen that often. Laws do work. It just takes time when the number of illegal sales and guns is as great as it now is. It’s the classic “Every journey begins with a single step.†We need to take that step. We don’t need semi-automatic combat clones with 30 to 60 round magazines. And we don’t need school halls full of people with guns, be they teachers, private security, volunteer civilians or fully trained cops. What we do need is a lot fewer guns in the hands of a lot fewer nutballs.
Make no mistake... it's past time we stopped pretending the guns are no part of the problem of gun violence. They damned well are… a big part of it. Guns exacerbate violence. In a domestic violence situation, a woman is five times more likely to die if there are guns in the house. Multiple shootings are made much more likely by extended magazines and short, stubby military style semi-automatic rifles and carbines. Past time we took those away... again. Past time we stopped allowing gun dealers to sell the majority of their weapons in non-background venues. Well past time we stopped letting the power drunk dolts running the NRA set national gun policy. And wa-a-a-ay past time we stopped pretending gun violence isn't about our national obsession with guns... because it damned well is.
























Comments: 62
Oooh, and I got to learn a new phrase--frammin' in th' jim-jam! I'm not sure how I'll manage to use it believably in normal conversation without looking like a complete idiot, but I'm certainly gonna try. ;-)
I'm wondering what all of the stupidity is about.."
Case in point...
Did you know that Wayne La whatever never served in the military? You'd think someone with his attitude would have enlisted long before the draft got to him.
It never fails to amaze me that so many of the uber gun rights Americans deck themselves out in Nazi regalia. What is that all about?
260000000000 human souls murdered by government. 1.3 million Newtowns.
Why do the domestic government agencies need hollowpoints? 750 million?
Don't worry, you can count on this gang to act in a legal, ethical and wise manner.
I'm not sure what "believe in" the constitution means
To some, it would mean the conversation begins with the man who swore an oath to uphold it proposing an amendment as per the formula of the founders, rather than squealing about dead children while adding one more facet of the document to the others he's circumvented.
Or it means you think a lawmaker is burdened with the expectation they aren't immune to the laws they make.
Just stop asking questions. For the children. Easier that way.
The Second is just the People and the government with a grip on each others package, saying, " Let's all be careful, now." There's some very unsatisfactory consequences, none solved by only one party removing their hand, much less having it removed.
There isn't enough earned trust for movement on this.
The more the need of guns is evident, the bigger the corruption is.
Where lies the corruption?
"The Second is just the People and the government with a grip on each others package, saying, " Let's all be careful, now."
Such an astonishingly stupid assessment. Do you really believe the American Military would fear American citizens, semi-automatic assault weapons clones notwithstanding?
There isn't enough earned trust for movement on this.
So the only thing to do is plan for regular massacres of children and the murder of several thousand adults every year? That's it? That's your recommendation?
Again. bullshit! If we can regulate, even ban, private ownership of any weapon (e.g., submachine and machine guns, weapons that fire explosive rounds, etc.), we can regulate all weapons. That's not what we're suggesting. But we are suggesting that enough is enough. Time to re-regulate assault clones and extended clips and mebbe Saturday Night Specials.
Such an astonishingly stupid assessment. Do you really believe the American Military would fear American citizens, semi-automatic assault weapons clones notwithstanding?
I don't believe American citizens should have to fear the military, Chuck. More, I don't believe they need to. I have every reason in the world to trust their fidelity. You're the one projecting some moronic wargame fantasy. But I'll indulge you. After a decade plus of being pinned down, in conjunction with the second best army on earth, against a population and in an area a tenth of our own, with no armor, airforce or navy, you're suggesting a popular insurrection wouldn't break the Union. Bullshit yourself.
So the only thing to do is plan for regular massacres of children and the murder of several thousand adults every year? That's it? That's your recommendation?
I didn't make one. But this is yours? re-regulate assault clones and extended clips and mebbe Saturday Night Specials.
At the current level of proliferation, you can't regulate anything, just say you are, spend money. Make some imaginary "children not killed" stat to go next to "jobs saved". You won't disarm crazies to be, any quantification of their carnage is theoretical. Two guns are no harder to get than two clips.
Here's my suggestion. Take a real look at the obvious data, and make like the "lib'ruls" you claim to be. Sandy Hooks and Columbine are hideous aberrations. But you could see the murder rate drop in half by removing the reason for them-turf and money. End the drug war. You want to ban something, ban banning. Leave people to do what they want with their bodies, stop making murder Inc.02 millionaires. 15000 murders/annum avoided. 750 Sandy Hooks. Entire generations of children spared being hunted down by tens of thousands of Federal agents with big guns and thrown in a cage for a bit of pot. If it matters beyond partisanship, there you go. So, are you serious about this?
"Such a sad and sneering commentary"-Chuck, 5:01
Do you REALLY want to look that ignorant? -Chuck, above that, to Joanns' contribution.
You don't think you set the tone, Chuck? I had every reason to think you'd respond to dissent with name calling, and at that, at least, you didn't disappoint.
Gun-control advocates conveniently ignore the fact that the countries with the highest homicide rates have gun bans, says researcher John R. Lott Jr. The three worst public shootings in the past year all occurred in Europe, which has enacted everything American gun-control proponents favor.
Around the world, from Australia to England, countries that have recently strengthened gun-control laws with the promise of lowering crime have instead seen violent crime soar.
In the four years after the United Kingdom banned handguns in 1996, gun crime rose by an astounding 40 percent.
Since Australia's 1996 laws banning most guns and making it a crime to use a gun defensively, armed robberies rose by 51 percent, unarmed robberies by 37 percent, assaults by 24 percent and kidnappings by 43 percent.
read more @ http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=6740
I'll just say that I agree we need to take a single first step and, in my opinion, that first step is to enforce the laws we now have.
Thanks for sharing with The Triple Name Club and I'll feature it to see if we can get other opinions.
There is only one question bothering me, you know that things bother me at times. Hunting guns are available; hunting or military knives are available; sharp swords are available; even six-shooter revolvers are available; even sling shots are available if you have a valid pictured ID.
How come that those involved in massacres, always, without exception used automatic weapons, instead of the cheap ones I mentioned above?
I don't intend to drag you in this debate, just a short answer to my precise question would be more than enough.
Most of the shooters do use the cheap weapons: pistols, revolvers, shotguns, and hunting rifles. And, yes, some of those hunting rifles are semi-automatic.
Be all that as it may, the point of my post is that no matter the proposal, whether to ban certain weapons, or to better control who gets to have guns... the NRA and its puppets will have instant reasons to not do that... whatever "that" may be. And the pretense that guns themselves play no part in the problem will be constantly reinforced by the same organization and its rote repeaters.
So the guy in Colorado used a pistol, or revolver, or a hunting gun? He must have been a really good performer to be able to reload so many times to kill that many people. How about the guy in the kindergarten? How about the one that they are hunting right now? How about the girl killed in Chicago a few days ago while she was with her friends in the park? Even the guy who went nuts with the kidnaped kid, had an automatic pistol, not a cheap revolver; I don't even speak about the Virginia Tech, or the Gifford incident. Of course, it happened long time ago, and most of the people in the discussions right now don't remember it, because they were young, if they were at all, but Reagan was shut at with an automatic pistol also...
The truth is that we have a runaway train in our hands right now. We have laws in the books, however the laws don't address the right issues and that is why we are having problems.
I think that every one should be allowed to have bazookas if they want. However, to compensate for the eventual damages, they should pay a tax which should be used to pay for the damages.
The Colorado guy right now costs the tax payers a lot of money for the trial. The prosecution has blank check to what they can spend, and his defense unless is private, paid by the same taxpayers that he hurt.
I wonder how much the man hunt will be costing the public? And we don't even know the reality with that guy. We judged him and convicted him to death, but we don't really know what happened. The sad part is that we are never going to find out, are we?
I was a firm supporter of the argument for allowing guns to the population to organize a Militia to fight the tyranny, until I saw the 1966 production of "The Russians are coming". It is probably the best exemplification of how the US population can organize a Militia to fight a sub armed with a gun pointed at them... It is true that the bad guys were the Russians, not the US government, but the "defenders" will still be the ones so vividly represented in the movie, with their complete arsenal...
Chuck, I am really sorry for the emotional investment you made on this posting, however, I think that you are talking to the wrong crowd. For now, America is caught in this mass psychosis of guns, and it will take more time for the public to wake up with a clear mind.
Point is, if a disgruntled, disenfranchised individual wants to spread havoc and death, a gun is secondary. We have to address the problems before the symptoms.
True, but irrelevant. No law covers every contingency.
Forget all the excuses now given by the NRA and the 'gun nuts'. They claim it's Americans access to violent movies and violent video games yet people in Canada and the rest of civilized Western society watch the same movies and play the same video games without the deady consequences.
The newest excuse is to blame it on mental illness. Yet when a Black shoots someone they are conveniently describes as being a thug; being an animal. 'Black on Black' crimes roll off the tongues of the mouths of those wanting to justify the irresponsible widespread distribution of any kind of gun or ammunition. Yet we never hear about 'White on White' crimes being committed. All of a sudden the NRA cares about crimes committed in Black neighborhoods; neighborhoods they've never set foot in.
The NRA and the 'gun nuts' both have the blood of those killed on college campuses, high-school campuses, movie theaters, shopping malls and elementary schools on their hands. Now is the time to stand up to these bullies; bullies whom could care less about all the mass killings that Americans have so become accustomed too. A small percentage of extremist Americans now hold the majority of Americans hostage because they are irresponsible as they play with their so-called assault weapon toys. It's not a toy. It's a weapon of mass destruction and carnage.
It's time for all good Americans to stand up to the NRA and the 'gun nuts'. We've tried it their way and it's been an abject failure. Now it's time to try it our way. Our way is to ban assault weapons. Our way is to have universal background checks. Our way to close the gun show loopholes. I think this is the way forward; a way that will reduce the death, destruction and carnage associated with all the guns and ammunition so widely distributed in our nation.
And wa-a-a-ay past time we stopped pretending gun violence isn't about our national obsession with guns... because it damned well is.
Yep.
Said one, “I believe in the constitution and the bill of rights,” as if that answered all.
And here is the crux of the problem. Reciting mindless platitudes is far easier than actually coming up with a rational need for assault weapons and 30- and 50-round ammunition clips whose sole purpose is the mass annihilation of life. Which is why so many offer nothing that requires actually taking responsibility.
The NRA loves people like that because it is great for gun sales.
I lived in Oregon for a few years, where they have a grave problem with Methamphetamine. Their solution was to remove all products containing any of the list of ingredients in meth, from store shelves. Currently, you can't buy over-the-counter cough medicine in the state or treat a wound with iodine (among other things). There has been no observable effect on the amount of meth cooked in the state.
There are many people who don't want to be treated like children, who need to have matches kept out of their reach to keep them from burning themselves. Children eventually grow up and can be trusted with matches, with the exception of a damaged few who will always be firebugs.
There will always be a damaged few who want to hurt others, does this mean we must all be treated like them?
I'm sure, given the tone of your comment, that I'm wasting time typing the question, but do you have any real ideas on how we might reduce the carnage?
Poison has been in American even before white people came and took the land from the native peoples. Poison has always been used by people to kill others. Once in a while you hear of someone being poisoned. What you don't hear about is poison massacres or frequent poisonings. We have no problems regulating, controlling the sale of, and tracking who buys poison. Yet, somehow, someway, doing the same for guns would have no effect on violent deaths?
What nonsense... what industrial strength, unadulterated nonsense.
You obviously don't like guns and you are completely within your rights to feel that way, but supporting your opinions with incorrect statistics doesn't convey anything meaningful.
If you could drop the name-calling and other abuse, I would find that helpful. It's difficult to sift through the obfuscation looking for actual points of information.
And, by the way, the perpetrator of the Connecticut shootings didn't own any guns. A more rigid background check of his mother, the actual owner, wouldn't have prevented that tragedy.
In no way do I feel that nothing should be done, but I can't see hysterics and panic accomplishing anything other than more government opression.
Joann, I guess you just consider all those shot on college campuses, shopping malls and elementary schools just collateral damage.
This has nothing to do with government oppression. It's all about providing a safe environment free from the widespread distribution of guns and ammunition that will allow children in kindergarten to make it to first-grade.
Joann, want to see pictures of children shot multiple times? Want to see pictures of child blood spattered across the classroom? Want to see the open caskets as opposed to the closed ones? Or do you just want to stick your head in the sand as if nothing ever happened?
Now, I'd like to know what those two things have to do with anything I wrote in the post.
Carol, what is your fascination with guns? How has the widespread distribution of guns and ammunition made our nation safer? What is the purpose of military assault weapons in the hands of civilians? Why must we, whom don't want these weapons on the streets put up with the death, destruction and carnage that they cause?
But here's the real news... Including suicides, about 31,000 Americans a year die from being shot. That's eighty-five (85) people a day... a DAY, every day of every week of every year.
Sorry folks, but that's not just "a few crazies." That's definitive evidence that guns per se truly are part of the problem, and we need to get control of that. There is no chance in the world that eighty-five people a day would die of knife wounds, smothering, clubbings, automobile run-downs and fists. It's time to stop pretending that guns don't contribute to gun violence.
Whether or not this shows as a correct link, it is featured.
Marilyn
Deaths by rifle in 2011- 323...
Deaths by already illegal guns in the hands of criminals...8-10,000
You just can't get around those figures...
And, of course, you always forget the other side of the equation...
"What is the cost, in lives, of being disarmed as a society???"
Nazi Germany...about 100,000,000 all tolled...
Ask the good folks that live on the Southside of Chicago (in the baddest part of town) what it is like being disarmed in a "war zone"...
Don't be intentionally obtuse...I can't distinguish you from your "useful idiots" friends and their emotional hyperbole...
If you are going to support something...how about a ban on pistols in the hands of gang-bangers, thugs and druggies...(wait...that is already illegal but the criminals aren't cooperating...and, besides, Jo Jo, you are a racist pig to blame it on those poor minority kids)...
HMMMM what to do ... What...to...do...???) Got it...ban guns in the hands of law abiding folks...!!! Yeah...it won't do any actual good but at least we can say we did something...
For a scientist, your math and logic suck...