THE FUTURE OF ISRAEL/PALESTINE

better if Israel gives back the Palestinian land they have stolen and stop being party and judge at the same time. Isarel should abide by the UN resolutions

Pipe dream. Nobody gives up land, just because the U.N. says to. And they have the power so it won't be taken from them by the Palestinians, either. It doesn't sound nice, but politics and nation building ain't nice.

The solution lies in the realization that we are all one people, under the one God, with a common destiny. The age of competition and rivalry are over; the age of reason and cooperation is upon us.

You are right Greg... It always amazes me too, that Israel is always told to stand back, cease fire... etc... I feel that Israel has a right to live in peace... I can see the US standing down and allowing missles to be fired in our country..

Debunking the Palestine Lie

What stolen land are you referring to, Howard? The land granted to Israel by the international community after WWII? Or the land Israel conquered AFTER being attacked multiple times by its Arab neighbors? The last time Israel traded land for peace (Gaza), they got non-stop rocket fire in return.

That is lies. Israel's wars since 1948 were planned and created to gain land. The only war initiated by Arabs was the 1973 war which Egypt did not expect to win . It was make the US restrain Israel, which it did. There would have no 1967 war if Israel had not attacked the Arabs. I was there and had access that year to our daily intelligence including the CIA's . The consensus was if the Arabs attacked a war would last two weeks , if Israel attacked one week. The Arabs weren't going to. Israel has deceived its people about its policy of perpetual war from the beginning . It wants more land. The Palestinians are a victim of Israel's ambition to gain much more land in the region. After the US, Israel is the most militarized nation in the world.

"The Arabs weren't going to" So say you. This is what the Arabs said and did:

1 - Nasser ordered the UN Emergency Force (UNEF), stationed in the Sinai since 1956 as a buffer between Israeli and Egyptian forces after Israel’s withdrawal following the Sinai Campaign, to withdraw on May 16. Secretary-General U Thant complied with the demand. After the withdrawal of the UNEF, the Voice of the Arabs radio station proclaimed on May 18, 1967

"Our forces are now entirely ready not only to repulse the aggression, but to initiate the act of liberation itself, and to explode the Zionist presence in the Arab homeland. The Syrian army, with its finger on the trigger, is united....I, as a military man, believe that the time has come to enter into a battle of annihilation."

2 - Syrian Defense Minister Hafez Assad said :


"Our forces are now entirely ready not only to repulse the aggression, but to initiate the act of liberation itself, and to explode the Zionist presence in the Arab homeland. The Syrian army, with its finger on the trigger, is united....I, as a military man, believe that the time has come to enter into a battle of annihilation."

3 - Nasser challenged Israel to fight almost daily.

"Our basic objective will be the destruction of Israel. The Arab people want to fight," he said on May 27." The following day, he added: "We will not accept any...coexistence with Israel...Today the issue is not the establishment of peace between the Arab states and Israel....The war with Israel is in effect since 1948."

4 - King Hussein of Jordan signed a defense pact with Egypt on May 30. Nasser then announced:


"The armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon are poised on the borders of Israel...to face the challenge, while standing behind us are the armies of Iraq, Algeria, Kuwait, Sudan and the whole Arab nation. This act will astound the world. Today they will know that the Arabs are arranged for battle, the critical hour has arrived. We have reached the stage of serious action and not declarations."

5 - Iraq joined the military alliance with Egypt, Jordan and Syria. President Abdur Rahman Aref of Iraq said:

"The existence of Israel is an error which must be rectified. This is our opportunity to wipe out the ignominy which has been with us since 1948. Our goal is clear -- to wipe Israel off the map."



But you, in your infinite wisdon know beyond a shadow of a doubt tht the Arabs were just talking. Egypt ordered theUN forces out and massed trops on the border, Syria massed its troops on its border, Iraq joined the military alliance with Egypt, Jordan and Syria, approximately 465,000 troops, more than 2,800 tanks, and 800 aircraft ringed Israel. Bur not to worry; it's all a publicity stunt.

I guess the U.S. Department of State’s historian is lying Clarke. That office’s web site says:

“The Arab-Israeli War of 1948 broke out when five Arab nations invaded territory in the former Palestinian mandate immediately following the announcement of the independence of the state of Israel on May 14, 1948.”
>>>>
That is manufactured history, sorry you seem to buy it... or do you lie, too?

But you, in your infinite wisdon know beyond a shadow of a doubt tht the Arabs were just talking. Egypt ordered theUN forces out and massed trops on the border, Syria massed its troops on its border, Iraq joined the military alliance with Egypt, Jordan and Syria, approximately 465,000 troops, more than 2,800 tanks, and 800 aircraft ringed Israel. Bur not to worry; it's all a publicity stunt.

That misrepresents the reality. Nasser had no intention of getting into a war he knew would be a disaster. The West and Israel knew this but they wanted the war for their own gain.

In the 20th century the worst manifestations of human behavior were experienced. Israel's behavior since it became a state in 1948 has matched some of the worst in the last century . It is a danger to world peace and itself if it fails to change.

Gaza is a recent example of Israel's worst behavior.

Making an internment camp of Gaza and refusing to accept Hamas as a legitimate elected party or honoring many ceasefires or failing to engage in negotiations to reach a settlement- which Hamas, with the support of other nations, made fair proposals to do. Israel is guilty of war crimes.
Hamas accepted the reality of Israel as a basis for reaching normal relations. Israel calls Hamas a terrorist organization (as does the US): this claim is not supported by many other nations, international law or reality. It also violates the principles of US policy regarding the status of other political groups and countries.

I don't believe anyone. I verify. I have limited knowledge as does everyone: objectivity and impartiality depends on the intelligence, discrimination and effort of the individual applied to information acquired.
There is always more to learn. Our knowledge of ancient history has radically changed in just the last decade.
To claim the State Department as an authority is laughable. All governments and agencies lie. Their priority is to serve the furtherance of policies that are considered desirable.
Israel is one example where the people were deceived about the policy of its leaders from the start. This has become known in much detail thanks to the work of Israeli historians and the access to more records from the past.
The same is true in varying degrees for other nations. Records are not made available and often were destroyed.
There has been a division in the US government and inside the Beltway since WWII on US policy and it persists today. The factions involved in the election and the shakeup of the generals, including CIA's Petraeus reflect the political divisions involved. Petraeus was viewed as a neocon , nicknamed General Betrayus. He sided with the faction that backed Romney, as did others in the military. They needed to be purged.

You embarrass yourself by citing statistics and ignoring the history. Hamas controlled extremist groups for 2 years after it was elected . Israel has supported them against Hamas by every means besides refusing to deal with Hamas as a legitimate party.

Hamas gains stature by resisting the Israeli attack, but violence is tragic for Israelis and Gazans. Gaza is a relatively a small part of Israel's self-destructive strategies and actions.-

When you can verify the accuracy of "the State Department historian", you may have credibility.

To Clarke M:
You compalin that israel refuses 'to deal with Hamas as a legitimate party."

Is it true that Hamas has as it's stated goal the complete destruction of Israel ? And if that is true I am curious as to what type of dealings Israel should have with Hamas?

Greg Reeson Nov 21, 2012, 12:06am EST
Funny, I don't feel embarrassed at all.
You are just talking bs for your masters. Did Petraeus authorize the killing of our ambassador? That would be not be unusual behavior the way governments operate . The disinformation you try to sell is typical in covering up as governments do.

Is it true that Hamas has as it's stated goal the complete destruction of Israel ? And if that is true I am curious as to what type of dealings Israel should have with Hamas?

That is not correct. Learn the history since Hamas was elected.
You refer to rhetorical talk not reality. Has Iran ever threatened to destroy or attack Israel? No.
President Carter wrote about Hamas several years ago and much was accurate.

The Hamas' "founding charter commits the group to the destruction of Israel, the replacement of the PA with an Islamist state on the West Bank and Gaza, and to raising 'the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine. " should not be seen as an obstacle and the demand that Israel be "recognized" can not be taken seriously as a condition of working toward and implementing a settlement. The reality is there are reasonable people on both sides, and have common interests to work with. Hamas and Israel have worked together and reached agreements before.

The CFR adds,"Some analysts contend that Hamas remains reluctant to give up violence and compromise on territory, but others note that some Hamas leaders have stated a qualified willingness to accept peace with Israel and a Palestinian state that does not include all of historic Palestine."

The record of Hamas is not gone into. And Israel's statements and their actions regarding Hamas are not mentioned. They are be examined together, with an analysis offered. The question is how can a settlement be reached that serves the common interests of both.

Israel can earn its "recognition" by working out a primary settlement , applying that with the Palestinians in stages, and adding other necessary matters to be settled as part of the process. Hamas has accepted the reality of Israel and can, as it has before, guaranteed Israel's security by treaties, specifying terms, duration and so on.


I am not considering the legality of the UN charter for Israel and the conditions in it that Israel has not met, such as having a constitution. Perhaps they are matters that will be included in negotiating a settlement. I think the previous peace agreements reached,which were not signed, in which there was little disagreement among the Palestinians and Israelis, covered any matters related to the charter.

I am not considering the ongoing Palestinian initiatives to gain status in the UN and any effect they may have on reaching a settlement with the Palestinians.

The Cairo 2011 and Doha 2012 agreements signed by Fatah and Hamas have not been implemented. Hamas has stated before that it will support any Palestinian settlement reached with Israel by any political party or parties that is approved by a referendum that includes all Palestinians.

The scale of Israel's war crimes in its blockade of Gaza and killing of civilians is great and cannot be justified.

Greg Reeson Nov 21, 2012, 9:56am EST
"You are just talking bs for your masters."

Do you have any idea how ridiculous you sound? I remember you from the last time I was on Gather. The conspiracy theory angle is so passe...

That's silly. You put out disinformation. What do John McCain, John Bolton, Fox News , et al do ? That's not a conspiracy, it's in plain sight. It's following the party line. That's not serving masters?
Sorry you take it personally.

Both the Israelis and the Palestinians have hopes, desires and ambitions. And God has a plan. Which do you think will prevail?

Oh, by the way, I don't take anything personally and do not put out disinformation. Ignoring the text of Hamas' charter so you can repeat Hamas talking points is disinformation.
You make negative comments on the situation , misstate facts and ignore others that are part of whole history and what needs to be considered to work constructively for solutions. That is irresponsible and unintelligent at best.
Your petty little personal remarks suggesting I have suggested there is any justification for Hamas sending rockets etc are as credible as Rush Limbaugh's spiel about others.

The aim is to end this behavior. That requires the parties working together to achieve this. This situation can be improved, as worse ones have been throughout history. There are many similar ones today , in the Middle East and elsewhere.


I heard Kissinger yesterday stating common sense on Afghanistan, which was obvious before we invaded and no less so today. If the neighbors, as China,Russia,Iran, India, Pakistan et al are not actively involved in cooperating to make Afghanistan stable, it will be bad for all and Afghanistan. China and India have large development projects and investment already, as does Iran in the western Afghanistan -it has developed the infrastructure and economy and supplies electricity as it does to Iraq.

Kissinger also referred to the different states created by the great powers after WWI to divide and control . The attempts to foster Shia and Sunni conflict , supported by the West and especially states like Saudi Arabia are on wrong side of history.

My opinion is that in time (100 years?) Israel will gobble up all the land, still call it Israel, and the Palestinians will either fight it and be crushed or figure out how to work with it and profit by it.

God's will be done, not yours, not mine, not the Jews, not the Palestinians.

If they carry on like they are doing there will be nothing left in that area in a 100 years except rubble

Graham: You'd be surprised. God works in mysterious ways. Just look at the old Berlin Wall. Who would have guessed?

You're right Thomas. God is constantly aiming toward one destination. He is able! :)

Thomas, I think that you have confused Jerusalem with New Jerusalem. :-)

I am not confused.

Israel has a right to exist and to defend it's citizens from the onslaught of rockets that have been launched from Gaza into Israel. They are perfectly justified in defending themselves against the barbaric terrorists that have vowed to wipe them off the face of the earth. The Palestinians have no right to demand anything from a country they have continuously attacked for decades. As far as obeying the UN goes, Israel is a sovereign nation and does not have to bow to a foreign entity's dictates. They are not under UN rule.

If the people of the world realized that "the earth is but one country and mankind its citizens" then all fighting over a piece of dirt would stop and we would live as God intended.

The destiny of Israel/Palestine is to be a single nation, undivided. All the rest is mere rhetoric. Thank you for tuning in.

Haifa is an example of the possibilities that exist in our region. The Jewish, Christian, Muslim, and Druze citizens in this community live together with a great deal of respect and freedom.
Twenty per cent of all Israelis are Muslim, Christian or Druze. This is within the borders that existed prior to the 1967 war. Israel is a democracy with some flaws but we actually live together fairly well.
I am involved in activities to promote peace involving Israelis and Palestinians. Tens of thousands in both regions support these efforts. The Palestinians now control most of their land. Most Palestinians are not terrorists and support a just peace. Most Israelis want to live in peace. Hamas is a political entity which calls for the destruction of its neighbors. They do not speak for all Palestinians.

Earl: Yes, I have heard about the relative peaceful relationships among the various elements of the population in the Haifa area, an area I have personally visited some years ago. Let's hope and pray that this peaceful climate spreads to the entire region. I agree with your comments and I applaud your endeavors in the promotion of peace. Keep up the good work, and keep me posted on developments there.