SCHOOLS SHOULD BE LIKE THIS: an opinion piece.

I like it.

Thank you, Dorothy.

A very interesting proposal.

With teachers picking their own teaching materials, will that mean the education a student receives could vary widely between different teachers or classrooms in the same school or between schools in a city/state or between schools in rich states and poor states?

Also, if people other than the teachers are grading the students, wouldn't this require the "tests" (in whatever form) be simply quantitative? In other words, how do the insights gained between the interaction of teachers and students get incorporated into the grading/evaluation? Or is that important?

Since education is both an incredibly important component of the success of any society and one of the most ignored component of that success, I'm deeply interested in how to improve our educational system.

David,

Yes, the education a student receives could vary widely. That's true today but would be much more likely in the system I propose. Thus, the education would be able to match the student. The parents can change teachers at any time if the student is not progressing. Thus, the student is not trapped in a bad teaching situation.

The graders are completely responsible as individuals for evaluating / testing the students just as the teachers are individually responsible for their instruction. The graders should have no access to "insights gained between the interaction of students and teachers. The graders must be unbiased by the teachers' perceptions of the students. It's up to the grader to find ways to properly evaluate the student. That also will vary widely from student to student.

Yes, the education a student receives could vary widely. That's true today but would be much more likely in the system I propose. Thus, the education would be able to match the student. The parents can change teachers at any time if the student is not progressing. Thus, the student is not trapped in a bad teaching situation.

You seem to suggest considerably more autonomy than I believe is currently the case. You also seem to suggest more opportunity for choice than is currently the case. For example, while there may be several choices at the grade school level there may be very few options for switching teachers at the high school level giving the greater specialization. Obviously this would be especially true in smaller school systems where there may only be one or two teachers who teach higher math or science versus larger school systems where they may be multiple schools with many math and science (or English or Spanish) teachers. I wonder just how much opportunity there really is for changing teachers if a student is not progressing.

The graders are completely responsible as individuals for evaluating / testing the students just as the teachers are individually responsible for their instruction. The graders should have no access to "insights gained between the interaction of students and teachers. The graders must be unbiased by the teachers' perceptions of the students. It's up to the grader to find ways to properly evaluate the student. That also will vary widely from student to student.

I suppose the key issue here is how to define "properly evaluate." How does one define "progressing?" As I noted in my first comment it would seem that the graders would be limited to quantitative type metrics akin to scores on a standardized exam, which I believe is one of the major critiques of No Child Left Behind by actual teachers in the classroom.

In rereading your comment "The graders must be unbiased by the teachers' perceptions of the students" it again strikes me that the grading must by definition focus entirely on tangible metrics (e.g., A,B,C,D,F; Wrong/Right) and must ignore less tangible metrics like a teacher's sense that a child needs a particular style of teaching to best bring out their abilities, whether they be in math/science/English or art/music/creativity.

This is definitely a discussion worth having on a broad national basis. A friend who is a teacher recently posted the following on another venue:

Want to understand how a car works - ask a mechanic.
Want to understand your taxes - ask an accountant.
Want to understand an illness -ask a doctor.
Want to understand your legal rights - ask a lawyer.

Makes sense. Right?

So why is it that when there are questions about public education no one thinks to ask a TEACHER ! ?

Instead they ask politicians who haven't set foot in a classroom since graduate school -unless they are looking for a photo op. It's time politicians stopped making decisions about education. I'll start listening to them when they spend a week in my classroom- planning, designing and implementing a comprehensive, standards based, developmentally appropriate curriculum.

Thanks for putting up this post, Larry. It's an important topic and one that needs much more attention, especially given the desire by one political party to regress education so we have more money to fund wars.

David,

Once past the lower grades, most students require far less from the teacher. Thus, the specialization of the high school teachers is far less a limitation. My acquaintance with home schooling families indicates that such courses as science and math require relatively little from face to face input from a teacher. This has two advantages: 1) a poor personality fit between teacher and pupil is far less important and 2) a junior college instructor or private tutor can supply the needed instruction.

The proper evaluation need not be done in a paper and pencil test, especially a standardized test. For some subjects, conversation will do (like history). For some subjects, demonstration of skills will do (like reading). For some subjects a variety of activities will do (like English). There is absolutely no need for standardized tests though they can be used.

The teacher's knowledge and sense that a child needs a particular style of teaching to best bring out their abilities has nothing to do with determining to what degree those abilities have been brought out. Listening to a child read will tell you quite a lot about what the child has learned about reading and almost nothing about the child's best learning style (visual, aural, tactile).

If you want to understand how a car works -- ask an engineer.
If you want to understand your taxes -- ask a lawyer.
If you want to understand an illness -- ask a biologist.
If you want to understand your legal rights -- ask a judge.

If you want to understand public education -- ask a sociologist.
(Very little of public education has to do with children learning. That's what I'm trying to change.)

Teachers (as a profession) know and practice little about education of children. Their minds are trapped in the same prison / factory model as the administrators and policy makers.

Interesting perspectives, Larry. I will definitely have to think about this more.

Thanks for all your input and feedback. :)

Ha, ha, ha. Larry, I am so glad that you posted this! Of course I am am a supporter of a different opinion, not because I want to aggravate you, but I had experience with two schooling systems and I am talking from experience.

Under my part of Europe, school was not a Democracy. As a matter of fact that Democracy stopped in school and it was an accepted reality.

The schools were not created to accommodate students. The schools existed for a very well determined purpose: to make up for what parents could not supply to their kids. For my first twelve years in school, I did not really enjoy any minute of being there. It was not a choice, it was compulsory, and we had to be there. Not only were we supposed to be there, but we were suppose to accumulate certain knowledge.

The requirement to be in school was made official by written law, as well as old tradition handed down for a generation to the next.

A crucial time for schools in Romania was around 1848 when they started to have some sort of public schools. In 1867 they passed an instruction law which was still active by the time I left the country in 1979.

Going to school was horrible, and it had always been, however we had to go. The schools, primary system, which started with four grades, then eight, then twelve was meant to give each child the minimum base of knowledge to carry them through life and to be useful members of the society.

For me the real fun started when I went to college, although I did not like the propaganda that was fed to us. I liked the college system in the States though and I enjoyed it. Yet, even I thought that college in Romania was great, I really realized that we were still in prison during my first day of class in an American college...

I hated all the way through high school, but I can say for sure that it was a useful experience for the rest of my life.

One think I learned during that time was that society is based on some rules, even crazy at times, but one has to live by some sort of rules in order to function. Did I like them? No, I try to avoid them as much as I could. Sometimes it worked sometimes it did not, but I learned to respect them and to accept them as long as there was no choice.

Schools are meant to give children "useless information" that the parents don't have or are not train to pass it on. That is why going to school is very unpopular through the twelve grade.

College was called something that is translated to "optional". Children were supposed to have basic knowledge before they went to higher learning institution.

The reason for having the problems we are having today, is that schools are mostly Democracies, and kids are sent there to accomplish more of a social function, having fun, rather then learning discipline and useful things for life...
l

educators taught FRAUDULENT information for decades here's my personal favorite ' Christopher Columbus ' discovered America, no, he didn't in fact the creator of the Universe did discover all things, make all things, all knowing all powerful all good, or you may reference it as follows:

omnipresent (everywhere),
omniscient (all knowing),
omnipotent (all powerful),
omnibenevolent (all good),

see what I mean?

It all depends how you define "fraudulent"...

For thousands of years we believed that the "atom" was the smallest part anything organic and inorganic can be divided to. In the past forty years we actually were able to see that there is a whole Universe contained in the sub atomic world...

The fact that Columbus was the first to discover America is just an accepted legend, and no one takes it seriously any longer. During the time we did, there was no other proof to support any other theory...

Oops, you managed to get me into your little joke deeper than I wanted to get...

Larry M., right now they have a quote ' NEW ' education model in place I'm including the link as well, K-12.com where ALL education below 12th grade is completed on-line free to public.

Notice here the ' isolation ' of social interactions with others? There's more to it than that though.

Students who are learning challenged won't get personal interactions with teachers or anyone else for that matter. We still fail in mathematics and sciences. LOL

http://www.k12.com/

Personally I don't think that America, at least, is ready for on line education yet. However we must not discount the idea, just a dream right now, that one day we will fly to the stars. A couple of generations may be born on the way there. They have to be educated to carry on the mission.

Then again, we might discover beyond light speeds, and the distance will be withing our life span to hope from star to star...

By 1900s, scientists, and they were no joking, thought that the fantastic speed reached by automobiles, 35 m/p was the end of the human race. Humans were not made to go that fast...

O yeah, try to convince those driving over 35 m/h in areas where this speed is the only way to save lives...

I'm glad my Great Grandkids are being home schooled.

Home schooling is best if you can do it.

Larry, when you were a college professor did you have any students who were homeschooled? How did they do?

Sandi,

I don't know. I left college teaching in 1976 and there were far fewer home schooled kids in those days. But from the statistics I have received, home schooled kids do quite well in college.

Very well thought out. There are many good points and some I'm not sure off. An excellent post.

Thank you, William. I hope it gave you a different perspective on may aspects of our schools.

our educational system is a disaster,.....no wonder home schooling is becoming more and more the norm.....

i recently read about the educational system in finland......there, basically, it is about the child actually learning, they are flexible and nutruting, and it is the teacher who must find a way to reach the child....

finland has one of the top educational systems in the world, at the present time...

blessings

Perhaps some empirical support for my suggestion. :-)

Ah, a breath of fresh air, Wendy!

So the separation of teaching and grading is done to some extent already with standardized state tests and such.

I think that graders should also be regarded as a high profession in such a system.

esteban,

You will notice that the standardized state tests fit right in with the prison / factory model of education. Every student in grade X will take exactly the same kind of test under the same kind of conditions just as if they were identical products coming off the assembly line.

Yes, the graders should be a profession with credentials and high standards. That's why I started their section of the essay with "The grading profession...".

concur.


just interested in the politics and between teachers and graders and
somewhat depressed about the farming out of tests to committees of committees.

teaching and grading both thrive from personal give and take.

esteban,

There should be no politics between teachers and graders. They should have little or nothing to do with each other.

No committees on grading. Each grader is independent and evaluated independently. Each is completely responsible for the grades (evaluations) they make. There is never an excuse for blaming any group for making a bad evaluation. How they evaluate is completely up to each individual.

Yes, both do thrive on personal give and take. But separately.

I need to review how you propose curriculum guidelines/standards. Is that a third entity?

I think I am missing something crucial here.

In the present system in the US, the standards folks are difficult.

esteban,

That's what I'm telling you. I don't propose curriculum guidelines / standards. That's top down, hierarchical, prison / factory education. I use natural selection to evolve both teaching techniques / methods and evaluation / testing methods.

In other words, the system is self regulating and self correcting. The feedback loops keep it stable and moving toward meeting whatever needs exist and adapting to whatever new circumstances come along.

If you don't like government telling you what to do, you'll like this system. If you don't like taking God out of the schools, you'll like this system. If you don't like teachers preaching religion to your kids, you'll like this system. If you want your child to learn rapidly and happily, you'll like this system. If you're a teacher, you'll LOVE this system. If you want lots of really sharp, well educated, innovative, creative students available to hire when they graduate, you'll like this system.

If you want to control how your neighbors' kids are taught you will NOT like this system. If you want to sell lots of new textbooks to a state full of schools by bribing a single state board you will NOT like this system.

gotcha

kinda like a voucher system except separate vouchers for teachers/schools and graders.

Perhaps an analogy might be to have the accreditors be paid by the
students rather than the teachers.

esteban,

As things are arranged now most places, each school is allocated a certain amount of money per student enrolled. The school system (a number of schools at various levels) receives this money and allocates it for various purposes with each school getting some say in how that money is spent.

I propose that the money allocated to the school be divided into money for instruction (teacher salaries and educational supplies) and infrastructure and staff (lights, furniture, non-teaching staff, maintenance, security, etc). All the instruction funds should be controlled by the teaching staff of the school. The other funds can be controlled by the principal.

The graders are paid from a separate budget. So long as the money is allocated to these three groups separately it should work.

Vouchers are a different concept. That would be money issued to the parents.

This is very interesting article Larry. I know you realize many of your ideas have current applications, magnet schools, special Ed, phasing, etc. I wanted to let you know, I am delighted to tell you that a Florida school has won a prestigious award for urban education. They did it in a mostly minority area. Here is where the story came out today. I found it interesting that the 4 finalists included 3 RTW states, but most of our schools here in FL have chosen to be represented.

http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/HISD-loses-out-on-top-education-prize-3975068.php

I realize I wrote that wrong. It was 3 schools, in 2 RTW states. :). We must be doing something right here, because 2 of 4 finalists in the National competition were in FL!

Char,

Can you name one school in which the teaching and grading functions are completely separate with no teachers assigning grades and a different cadre of professionals does the grading?

Can you name one school in which the teachers are in control and allocate all the money for educational materials?

Can you name one school in which the teachers outrank and control the principal?

If the answer is "no" to all of these questions, then it isn't my system at all.

I don't see how a teacher can effectively teach students who vary so much, without the feedback from the "grading", and how much they are actually learning. I see what you are going for, with them self directing but to cover the minimum essential material I happen to believe some amount of structure is required. as a practical matter, there also need to be group learning experiences. I guess I was Akers, but all through my education, instructors allowed a lot of decision making by students, so long as certain goals were met.

I don't know how the iPad got Akers, but the word was lucky.

Char,

Can a teacher ask students questions? In writing? Can a teacher ask students to explain things or describe things? If so, there's plenty of scope for feedback. Grading is a labeling, a categorization. This paper gets a "B" grade rather than these answers are correct and these answers are wrong and these answers are incomplete or misleading. In other words, the student needs feedback also. But the student does not need to be graded. The student and teacher can explore what the student has learned and not learned without any grading.

For example, let's say a teacher in today's schools gives several tests over the course of the fall term. Those test scores are averaged and form the basis for the student's grade at the end of the term. That was a common procedure during my years in school. But you will notice that it does not indicate the student's state of knowledge and skills at the end of the term. Things missed on the first test may have been learned by the end of the term. Yet the student gets no credit for that later acquisition of knowledge. That's really bad methodology on the part of the teacher in grading. Or a grade may be marked down for a paper turned in after the deadline (but well before the end of the term). Again, bad grading methodology. The intermediate tests can be quite useful in providing feedback for both teacher and student. But that is all they should be used for, not for grading.

The structure should be determined by the teacher for each student. Not by the principle or the school board or the state. The teacher knows the student and is being held responsible for the student.

People learn as individuals. They may learn about groups. They may learn in a group context. They may learn by interacting in groups. (In fact, all of these should be employed for most students.)

Were you allowed lots of decision making in grade school? If so you were far luckier than most.

Larry,

Thank you for a very deeply thought-through post which I presume was many years in the making and which I also assume must have a lot of overlap with your work in devising a more rational monetary system. I assume because I still haven't found time to read or listen to it. But anyhow..

I'm in general agreement with you and especially intrigued with your idea of putting a firewall between teachers and graders. This could have some very interesting and positive ramifications but I suspect that it may also be the weak link in the whole process you envision. I don't think science in general points us in the direction of being able to split and isolate things into separate categories. If those graders never see students, how could they stay up at the high level of inspiration needed to do that hard work well?

I suspect that you might agree that the desire to transmit information between people, to be part of teaching and learning, is profoundly held in humans. That flow creates amazing inspiration when it happens. Perhaps there is something rotten about the whole idea of grading and measurement, so if I toss that back to you, I think you'll have a field day with it, if you'll pardon the thin educational pun!

Gerry,

The graders do see the students, face to face, up close and personal, one on one. They have time to get to know the student as an individual. But they may never, or at least for several months, not see that student again. It is important that they not know who the teacher of that student is.

Grading is good. Evaluation is good. Testing is good. What's bad is failure. The grading is intended to evaluate what the student has learned and what skills the student has acquired. You will notice that the schools' sports teams are tested, evaluated, measured by playing games. That is good for the players and the teams.

When a student has learned enough the student is "classified" at the next highest grade level. That does not mean that the student changes classes or leaves the teacher. It merely means that the graders recognize the student's success. Some students take longer than others. Because there is no time deadline for achieving the next grade level, there is no failure.

(Do you give my response a passing grade? :-) )

For the most part, yes, Larry, and I sure would like to see what real experience reveals should this system come to life somewhere. I am not at all sure that grading is good or that testing is either. Inside the current system, they are mostly not at all good, which is why I minimize this practice which so takes away from learning time. Thank you for your response!

Gerry,

If you think of this kind of grading as certification or providing a credential rather than a judgement upon the student the most, if not all, of the ills of grading are eliminated. It's a way of saying "this person can do these things and knows these things." It isn't a way of saying "You're no good." or "You're better than everyone else."

Testing in the sense of "finding out about" is just fine. The students really need to know what they have learned and what they have misunderstood. As feedback, testing is valuable. It's like when one practices shooting a basketball. One cannot improve unless one can see whether one missed or not. Success takes a lot of misses.

So are you saying that this grading is essentially pass/fail and go back to work on it some more? That I might be able to get on board with.

Gerry,

It can be either (you are promoted / not there yet or you are 87% of the way there, keep trying). Just exactly what the graders evaluate so far as the students are concerned is flexible. But so far as assigning grades in whatever sense it should be the graders judgement that goes on the "permanent record" of the student.

Larry,

I have a few tenets that seem to be in conflict with your approach to education.

Where you see school as a ‘prison’ that kids are in against their will, I see as a means to assure them of an opportunity to learn and become better prepared for their future. As we see many kids are dropping out once the reach that age od choice. I attribute that to the environment they live. Which in many cases is based on history rather then future. If school is not required I believe that many kids would never make it to school and at best wouldn’t learn such basic skills of reading, writing, and arithmetic until adulthood when they would have to apply those skills.

Where you see school as a factory because it groups kids by physical age and not academic skills (within a range), I see a consideration of the emotional and social maturity and even a physical maturity being factors accommodated by the current system.

Where you see grading of students both judgmental and a means of threatening, I see grading as a means of feedback on what the students is gaining from their efforts and how effective the methods of teaching are. I see this also being true for the ‘’grading ‘ of teachers, administrator and the whole school. I feel that feel back is critical for people to better understand what they are doing and what adjustments they will need to make to reach their goals. You are concerned about whether the methods used are appropriate and yet without grading how would that be known?

You seem focused on the academic education as it relates to a student’s intellectual future and to how it will allow them to sue technology. That is important and yet it seems it there needs to be more, personal responsibility, decision making, mundane daily living skills, learning how the context of things are important, learning risk assessment, for a term I will call it learning about being a whole person and the necessary skills living day-to-day. I do believe behavior is something that is critical to the individual’s education and those around them.

Where you want the teachers to have authority, I believe with authority there must be accountability.

Where you lean more to the teacher controlling the system, such as hiring other teachers, I see the value of a system administration that includes teacher input(even veto power) that is more long-term and system sensitive. Many times individuals like to stay with what they know and the systems of the past, while an administrator has the responsibility to look long-term and ensure that the system is changing to meet changing needs.

Duane,

You wrote:
"Where you see school as a ‘prison’ that kids are in against their will, I see as a means to assure them of an opportunity to learn and become better prepared for their future."

Are the children in the school voluntarily or by force of law?

In grade school are the children given any choice in the subjects they are to learn?

Are the children punished for not doing as they are told?

Libertarians would call that the application of force. If you compare the school room with a prison cell you will find more freedom in the cell.

The intent of the persons who send these children to the prison / factory is irrelevant. It's still a prison / factory.

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The current system accommodates almost nothing. Talk to parents who have tried to get accommodations for their unusual children.

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You wrote:
"Where you see grading of students both judgmental and a means of threatening, I see grading as a means of feedback on what the students is gaining from their efforts and how effective the methods of teaching are."

How does the student see the grades? What does a D or an F mean to the student who gets such a grade? What does a student hear when a teacher says "if you don't do what I tell you to do I will give you an F."

How often does a teacher change teaching methods when students fail? Are they permitted to change methods?

Feedback is a good thing and grading by the teachers is a bad thing. They are not the same thing at all.

Grading tells us nothing at all about the teaching methods. The students are always blamed, never the teacher. (I exaggerate but only a little.)

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You wrote:
"That is important and yet it seems it there needs to be more, personal responsibility, decision making, mundane daily living skills, learning how the context of things are important, learning risk assessment, for a term I will call it learning about being a whole person and the necessary skills living day-to-day."

These are all part of learning to be a good citizen, an effective and self sufficient adult. They are good things and I approve of them. But they are not what schools should specialize in unless you want to have the schools doing all the child rearing and families none of the child rearing. Schools emphasis is academic subjects. Are you going to grade schools on children learning to tie their shoes? I don't think so. But I suggest to you that the system I propose will do far, far better at teaching all these things than a prison / factory institution.

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You wrote:
"Where you want the teachers to have authority, I believe with authority there must be accountability."

The independent graders are the meaningful source of accountability. They constitute the check on the teachers that provides the most meaningful feedback to the individual teachers. It allows the society to reinforce success. To reward accomplishment. To give more power to those who are using it best. In other words, my system does exactly what you demand unlike our current system.

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On what basis would you have a system administrator reward / punish / promote / demote / hire / fire teachers? What more meaningful measure could they use than independent measures of the improvement in their students? What's more important than the progress of the students? What is the most important function of the schools supposed to be?

Teachers who's student improvement is low have every motive to change and that feedback is steady and persistent. They have rewards to gain by changing and pay and power to lose by staying with inadequate methods. In other words, the system does what you would have an administrator do and it does it without favoritism by any administrator, without other factors than student accomplishment coming into play. In other words, it's better at achieving your aims.

Larry,

You seem to want to treat children and free and capable adults, giving them free choice of whether to attend school or not. First the law sees children as that when under 18. The current laws about school attendance are the responsibility of the parents. I believe it have been shown that children’s brains are growing until they are into their 20s. That growth does affect their ability to reason. I believe children are children and have to learn everything include process of thinking problems through. One step is giving them boundaries in which they can learn, as they grow the boundaries will be lowered. I don’t believe a child at 5 to 6, Michigan want to extend education to 2 year olds. I simply don’t believe a child at that age has the ability to reason and to chose to attend school or not. If they do not attend school, not learning to read or write or do arithmetic that will be assured of being dependent on others all their lives.

“How does the student see the grades?” It depends on what is measured and how it is measured, and how it is presented. It can be feedback on their understanding of the topic and indicating how and what adjustment need to be made to the students practices and how the information is presented. As an example if the grade includes the homework a student does then it can help them assess what they can do to improve, it also can reinforce what they are doing if they have demonstrated they have a good grasp of the material. As I say kids like games with scores so they can get feedback on how they are doing and what they may have to change.

“How often does a teacher change teaching methods when students fail?” That depends on the individual and the purpose of the system. Once of my concerns is that when we talk about the teacher and even the system supporting the teacher that the role of the child and the parent is at best ignore and most commonly avoided for fear of placing responsibilities on them.


“Grading tells us nothing at all about the teaching methods.” That isn’t necessarily so, it depends on how the grading system was developed, purpose, metrics, performance expectations, etc. My experience in our community, in our state, the efforts underway all of the discussion ( at least what we see in public from the MEA) is challenging the ability to hold the teachers accountable and never has there been any comments about the students responsibilities. Do you believe the students and even their parents have any responsibilities in the education process?

“But they are not what schools should specialize in unless you want to have the schools doing all the child rearing and families none of the child rearing.” Why not in the schools? One of the purposes of schools seems to be to provide students with an education of things they are unlikely to learn elsewhere and that facilitate a functioning society. Why don’t you believe these lessons will not help “… to educate for the high technology in all respects economy and society of the future…”?

“Schools emphasis is academic subjects.” That sounds so much like teaching them facts and never teaching them how to apply those facts. What is so important about the wars across Europe if they don’t learn the context of the history and then how it becomes a lesson for today?

“The independent graders are the meaningful source of accountability.” This won’t work, simply look at our regulatory system, the Compliance Officers (graders) look at only the letter of what is written because they are ‘graders’ and aren’t participants in the teaching/learning process. ‘Graders’ by the nature of their role are looking for conformance not for creativity because that is their purpose. It is best to have ‘graders’ who are participants in the process and guided by the purpose of the process being graded.

“But I suggest to you that the system I propose will do far, far better at teaching all these things than a prison / factory institution.”
This sounds a lot like what I am hearing on TV in this campaign, trust me I will make it better, but don’t look for any description or even principles of how you will verify what I said would happen or be done actually occurs.

“They constitute the check on the teachers that provides the most meaningful feedback to the individual teachers.” No, the best ‘graders’ are the ones that will make the changes and when the ‘graders’ are independent of the process they can not change anything. I would offer with well defined expectations, proper preparation people in the process (staff, teacher, parents, students, and heaven forbid people from the community who are paying the taxes) can be the most effective ‘graders’. The benefit of ‘graders’ who are part of the system is that they have ownership of the process and the results, they have a knowledge of how the system can work, they can give practical feedback (how others maybe doing something, even who may be contacted for added information) more than a grade, they can be a means of sharing what they find to others with in their personal network. When grading is seen only as a means to assess what has happened there is so much more that is lost, finding and sharing the practical side of success, the practical ways to improve practices, the learning by others such as the ‘graders’ themselves, etc.

“In other words, my system does exactly what you demand unlike our current system.” You say that but if I were to be a ‘grader’ I would have no means of verifying that, you may understand how but I don’t.

“On what basis would you have a system administrator reward / punish / promote / demote / hire / fire teachers?” Every system involving people needs those elements, but they should not be the drivers of the system. I thought teachers were rewarded by the success of their students, I thought punishment was something that the law meted out, promotion would seemed to have to do with the roles available and skills and knowledge of the applicants, hiring would seem to be similar to promotion. Demotion and firing could be consider part of punishment or maybe whether the person fit the role and that seem to be very individual driven.

“In other words, it's better at achieving your aims.” But who knows what those aims are, who keeps the system on track to those aims, who is the gate keeper, who is looking for changes for improvement to the system, who receives the feedback on the system?

Duane,

In most contexts I do want to treat children as free and capable adults, giving them free choices in as many situations as it is appropriate. That's how they become responsible adults. Make decisions and experience the consequences. Of course there are many situations in which giving a child a free choice would be stupid or even insane. But most of the time it's appropriate.

Children (normal ones) are quite capable of reason at age two. By age three most are good scientists. That doesn't mean their brains are ready to learn just anything at all but within their limitations they do quite well. The main thing is to let them follow their interests and give them a great variety of things to choose among.

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In answer to my question "How does the student see the grades?" your response is not to the grades but to the things they got wrong or right, to the things they did well or poorly on. How does a student respond to being informed "you got a 'B' on this test"? If you got back a paper or an examination and all it had on it was a letter grade, no indication of what was good or bad about your answers, what would you get from that? That letter grade is the grade.

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You did not dispute my contention that teachers (in the main) don't change methods on the basis of how their students do on the tests they administer.

You wrote:
"One of my concerns is that when we talk about the teacher and even the system supporting the teacher that the role of the child and the parent is at best ignored and most commonly avoided for fear of placing responsibilities on them."

The school has no control over the parents. But the parents' treatment of the student is of considerable concern. That is one of the variables the teacher must take into account.

We hold the teacher responsible for the child's performance and improvement because the teacher has the authority. Of course the child will have a huge role in that improvement. But we can blame the child for nothing. It's never, ever the child's fault. Just like we cannot blame the dog for being rabid. But we must deal with that dog recognizing that it is rabid. So we don't blame the child but we do deal with that child has he or she is.

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We wrote:
"“Grading tells us nothing at all about the teaching methods.” That isn’t necessarily so, it depends on how the grading system was developed, purpose, metrics, performance expectations, etc."

That is always so. It only tells us what the present state of the child is with respect to specified knowledge and skills. It tells us nothing at all about how that child acquired that knowledge and skills.

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You asked:
"Do you believe the students and even their parents have any responsibilities in the education process?"

The students and the parents are not responsible for the educational activities of the school. If the students do not learn to read or math, that is the fault of the school. The teachers are the only ones held responsible for the academic progress of the students. The teachers cannot escape their responsibilities by blaming anyone else. That's why they have complete authority in the education of their students. If they can escape the responsibility by blaming "rotten kids" or "rotten parents" then they will do so. They are only human.

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You wrote:
"Why not in the schools? One of the purposes of schools seems to be to provide students with an education of things they are unlikely to learn elsewhere and that facilitate a functioning society. "

Because we cannot hold the teacher responsible for the child's total development unless we give them complete control over the child's total environment. Do I want well behaved, responsible adults to come out of our schools? Of course. Do I want them to have good personal habits and behave ethically under all circumstances? Definitely. But to ask teachers to accomplish such miracles and to punish them for not accomplishing such things is not only unfair and unrealistic, it will destroy the effectiveness of the teachers completely.

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We wrote:
"'Schools' emphasis is academic subjects.' That sounds so much like teaching them facts and never teaching them how to apply those facts.'

It only sounds that way if you have a very narrow understanding of what "academic" means. If you are studying English, do you confine yourself to grammar, punctuation, and spelling? Do you omit composition, orderly presentation of ideas, emphasis, expression of meaning, poetry, means of persuasion, ...? If you are studying math, do you skip all math applications?

Education in academic subjects uses facts but is not composed of facts. Your example from history is an example.

You will also find that when students are pursuing their interests they not only learn fast, efficiently, and thoroughly but they learn to relate things like math and English to those interests.

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You wrote:
"This won’t work, simply look at our regulatory system, the Compliance Officers (graders) look at only the letter of what is written because they are ‘graders’ and aren’t participants in the teaching/learning process."

You are quite wrong on this point. Perhaps if I give an example from manufacturing. Those who test the products on theh assembly line for defects do not need to know why the buttonhole was improperly located to reject the shirt. They only need to be able to spot such defects and indicate them.

Your phrase "the letter of what is written" is revealing. Remember, the graders say when the students have met the requirements for the next grade or have sufficient knowledge / skills to get credit for a course. There is no "letter of what is written" for them to follow. Compliance Officers are nothing like graders. Their functions are entirely different. If you confuse the two you totally misunderstand the role of one or both. Measuring knowledge or skills is entirely different from detecting illegal acts.

The graders are NOT looking for conformance. They may be looking for creativity in some subject areas. The purpose of the subject matter is totally irrelevant. The means used to help the child learn are likewise irrelevant.

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We wrote concerning the graders:
'“They constitute the check on the teachers that provides the most meaningful feedback to the individual teachers.” No, the best ‘graders’ are the ones that will make the changes and when the ‘graders’ are independent of the process they can not change anything.'

So you would have the graders come into the classroom and grade the teachers and require that they do things as the graders order. You would have the greaders be all that is bad about our current school systems. Top down authority. Hierarchy. Bureaucracy. That isn't good for learning, education, or getting either teachers or students to succeed. In other words you would merely change the current role of "principal" by naming it "grader" instead. Otherwise you would leave it unchanged.

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We wrote:
'“In other words, my system does exactly what you demand unlike our current system.” You say that but if I were to be a ‘grader’ I would have no means of verifying that, you may understand how but I don’t.'

I was wrong. Your system is our current system. Let me rephrase that sentence.

My system would accomplish what you would like our current system to accomplish.

If you were a grader in my system your only job would be to determine whether the individual students you dealt with had the knowledge and skills appropriate to a particular grade or appropriate to one who had successfully passed a specific course of study.

In my system, it is not the grader's job to do anything else.

You wrote in your 9:46 comment:
"Where you want the teachers to have authority, I believe with authority there must be accountability."

In response to that I wrote:
"On what basis would you have a system administrator reward / punish / promote / demote / hire / fire teachers?"

I was asking what you would hold teachers accountable for. On what basis? Accountability is expressed by systems by such things as I listed. But those are not the basis for the things expressed. I was expecting you to say you would hold them accountable for the students' increase in knowledge and skills. But it seems that you want them to be responsible for all sorts of other things as well.

In my system teachers are held accountable for the students' increase in knowledge and skills. The graders' sole function is to measure that increase. With that knowledge, the knowledge of the change in knowledge and skills of the students, we have the basis for holding the teachers accountable. We can meaningfully compare the teachers with each other and with the teachers in other schools. We can assign pay and authority and budget monies on that basis. The teachers have that feedback on the effectiveness of their efforts. Of course, unless the teacher is a fool, the teacher will have a very good idea of the progress of each of the students so the results will come as no surprise. To rise in relative status, the teacher must improve. There's the motivation and the push to adapt and adopt methods that are more effective. It's the lure of the rewards that encourages experimentation and originality. It's these results that provides the natural selection to eliminate the weakest of the teachers.

Now is it more clear?

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We wrote:
'“In other words, it's better at achieving your aims.” But who knows what those aims are, who keeps the system on track to those aims, who is the gate keeper, who is looking for changes for improvement to the system, who receives the feedback on the system?'

Presumably you know what aims you have for your children. This system gives you quite a lot of control since you get to choose the teacher(s) you like. So far as the economy is concerned, this is far more efficient at generating well educated young adults.

The system feedback (graders) keep the system on the tracks specified by the legislature (or the school board if allowed). If they want so many credits in English or history or math or foreign languages or ... then the graders' results will tell the teachers when each student has achieved the required credits. The folks on the top setting the policies can keep on muddling through as before and the system will make their product work.

As to who is looking for changes for improvement to the system, every single teacher in the system is doing so and they can put in place those improvements without permission of anyone else.

The teachers' grades can be public so everyone can know the feedback. The progress will be very obvious. If kids come out of the system incompetent, the graders will be the obvious cluprits because they should have not evaluated them as succeeding. In other words, the public will know just whom to blame / replace when anything goes wrong. There is accountability throughout the system because each participant has complete authority over their own job.

Larry,

What you want to believe doesn’t make it so.

“giving them free choices in as many situations as it is appropriate.” I have limited experience with children, but as best I can tell they have little knowledge of what all their choices are, what it will take to make those choices happen, little appreciation of what type of effort and sacrifice it will take, there is so little they know that are not sufficiently prepare to make uninformed choices. My analogy is choosing between broccoli and ice cream when you haven’t even tasted them.

“Children (normal ones) are quite capable of reason at age two.” Of what walking or talking or understanding quantum theory? My children my grand children would not have know what school was let alone chosen to go to school if their parents and that was when they were 5 or 6.

“How does a student respond to being informed "you got a 'B' on this test"?” There needs to be a description of what each grade entails, such as their maybe one that reflects the knowledge learned, one that has to do with the homework complete and skills demonstrated, another may be about class involvement such as team project, participation, etc. There can be a core of elements graded and them it have added details involving individual expectations. It becomes a simple index that the student is given with weighting. The compilation of the whole index can be their grade while each element of the index is specific feedback. If you need a more detail example, describe the subject (what is to be learned by the end for year, the grade level, and whatever other items you feel are pertinent and I wil try to create a grading index for it.

“You did not dispute my contention that teachers (in the main) don't change methods on the basis of how their students do on the tests they administer.” Since you didn’t give any more detail I didn’t know what constituted change. I recall teachers that would have a subject such as a particular math skill and if the class or part of the class didn’t get with one presentation they would use a different example and a different one and so on until they had as much of the class getting it as they felt would. I am not sure that this was changing methods because the core was using examples and all they did was keep changing them until they found the ones effective for each student.

“The students and the parents are not responsible for the educational activities of the school.” We disagree, if the child does not try to learn they will not learn, if a child is disruptive they will impede the learning of others in the class. If parents are not supportive of the education process the learning will be slowed. Learning is not something that can be spoon fed, it must have the child committed, the teacher committed, and even better the parents committed. I have had rotten teachers, and at least one daughter had rotten teachers.

“Because we cannot hold the teacher responsible for the child's total development unless we give them complete control over the child's total environment.” Not even the parents have control of the total environment so using your logic not one can teach these subjects.

“It only sounds that way if you have a very narrow understanding of what "academic" means.” By excluding these other topics you are narrowing what ‘academic’ means.

“when students are pursuing their interests they not only learn” And when their interest doesn’t include math what do they learn?

“Perhaps if I give an example from manufacturing.” Environmental, health and safety, the compliance officers only saw the letter of the law and never care about the performance. They could not relate to the nature of the operations the, the product mix, the culture, etc. One former employer was very aggressive of transferring authority over safety to the person closes to the risk, OSHA could not accept that a technician could make the decision to shutdown an operating process that maybe a few million in capital let alone one that was several hundred million. If they could accept the smartest practice then how could they effectively ‘grader’ the operation? This was experiences I had heard time and again. When the internal ‘graders’ made up of those from other plants using the same protocols did the grading the process was so much more respected and provided usable findings.

“is no "letter of what is written" for them to follow.” That is what you want, that is not what will happen for many reasons.

“They may be looking for creativity in some subject areas.” Not if it hasn’t be describe to them, otherwise you will have nothing but random results that will not tell anyone anything, for if two graders can provide the same finding of the same practices no one will trust the findings.

“…they do things as the graders order.” No.

“My system would accomplish what you would like our current system to accomplish.” You have given nothing to suggest that.

“Accountability is expressed by systems by such things as I listed.” That is where we differ, accountability is in their setting goals and achieving those goals. Punishment is about breaking rules/laws.

“In my system teachers are held accountable for the students' increase in knowledge and skills” It seems your approach is about blame not accountability.

“The graders' sole function is to measure that increase.” You don’t need graders for that well define demonstration of result will provide that information. Graders are about the means and methods and how they are used.


“Presumably you know what aims you have for your children.” Not unless told.

I would ask each participant in the process what they felt expectations should include and then develop the grading index to accommodate them.

Duane,

Perhaps you have limited experience with children but I have a lot of experience with children. I not only raised three of my own but I have been coaching other people's children for over 30 years in baseball, basketball, and football. Children of school age know far more than you appear to realize.

Children of age two are learning language. You can't do that without being able to reason. They are learning how to control the behavior of those around them. That requires reason. They are conducting experiments testing hypotheses about the physical world around them. Just watch a two year old at play. They are doing science.

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You wrote:
"There needs to be a description of what each grade entails, such as their maybe one that reflects the knowledge learned, one that has to do with the homework complete and skills demonstrated, another may be about class involvement such as team project, participation, etc."

That's what the teacher does in giving feedback to the student. That is not what the grader does. The grader just assigns the "B". (Not literally but in grade school it would be "we're done, back to your class now" to the student and the "grade" would be something like "needs better reading and arithmetic skills for third grade.") That "B" tells the student almost nothing. That's the grade. "You missed this question on the test." is giving feedback and that's done by the teacher. But it isn't grading in my system. That's instruction in my system. If you want to discuss my system then please deal with it as it is designed.

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Changing methods section.

What you described is not changing methods. It's using the same method again.

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You wrote:
" if the child does not try to learn they will not learn,"

The child can no more help learning than help breathing. Learning is involuntary. The brain remembers and makes associations and dreams. Now the child has some control over what to pay attention to. But even that does not mean the child can ignore anything at will.

But that's beside the point. The child and the parents can influence what the child learns but the teacher in my system is held responsible for the educational activities of the school. You do understand the concept of "responsibility." You do understand holding a person responsible for some task or duty. The system does not hold the child responsible because the teacher has all the authority, the power, the control. The teacher cannot blame the principal because the teacher is boss of the principal. The teacher cannot blame the janitors because the teacher out ranks the janitors. The teacher cannot blame the parents because the parents do not control the activities of the school. Only the teacher is in charge of the student at the school. Only the teacher decides what is to be done in the classroom and what resources will be used and how. The teacher has the non-teaching staff of the school as a resource for support. Therefore the teacher is held responsible for the educational activities of the school.

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You wrote:
"Not even the parents have control of the total environment so using your logic not one can teach these subjects."

I don't hold the parents responsible for the educational activities of the school so the child's gain in academic knowledge and skills are not the responsibility of the parent if they place the child in the school. I hold people responsible only for what they can control.

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You wrote:
"And when their interest doesn’t include math what do they learn?"

Everyone's interest includes math. It's the context that determines the interest level. If you are interested in money and you suspect someone is short changing you, you become interested in subtraction. If you are interested in engines, there are lots of things that involve math about engines. If you find dinosaurs interesting there's lots of math involving dinosaurs. No matter what you find interesting there's math involved. The same kind of thing applies to reading, obviously. With math and reading everything else is available, even art history.

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Your OSHA example is not about graders, it's about control. Graders in my system do not control, direct, order, manipulate, command, or otherwise tell any teacher how to teach or how to not teach. All they do is examine the product.

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You wrote:
"That is what you want, that is not what will happen for many reasons."

It is not what will happen if you are in charge, obviously. But you will need to give me some better reason than that. What motive would a grader have to want a "letter of what is written" to follow? Why should they want to be micro-managed? Other people don't like micro-management.

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If you are being micro-managed you are not allowed to look for creativity. See the state requirements for judging writing ability in student end of grade exams. If you are judging the quality of the writing on your own, with no narrow definitions, it's easy to note and appreciate originality. Same for art or science or even math. If one does not give control to the person doing the job one cannot hold them responsible. See your OSHA example. That was an attempt to control from above rather than allowing the technician who was the expert to make the decisions. The same thing applies with graders.

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We wrote:
'“In my system teachers are held accountable for the students' increase in knowledge and skills” It seems your approach is about blame not accountability.'

If the students of a teacher improve very little the teacher receives less pay and loses authority and control of budget resources and staff. That is holding the teacher accountable. Real consequences for the teacher based on the performance of the students is accountability. Why you use the word "blame" to cover both rewards and punishments I don't understand.

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We wrote:
'“The graders' sole function is to measure that increase.” You don’t need graders for that well define demonstration of result will provide that information.'

You do need graders for that. Well defined demonstration in many areas is almost impossible. Those standardized end of grade tests show that. Besides that, you get teachers teaching for the test rather than teaching the subject well. You are trying to keep all the worst aspects of our prison / factory model of education. You illustrate why we continue with a failed model of education and keep blaming the victims (students and parents) of that system for its failures.

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We wrote:
'“Presumably you know what aims you have for your children.” Not unless told.'

You totally ignored your children's educational needs when they were young? I don't believe that. I think you wanted them to learn to read and do math and learn history and so forth. I can't believe you had no expectations and hopes and dreams for your children's success.

Larry,

"Perhaps you have limited experience with children but I have a lot of experience with children." I will defer to your expertise.

Thank you, Duane. I appreciate discussing matters with a gentleman.

How did I miss this post? It is the first logical reform that I have read. It would be good if this is taken to the next level.

Kevin,

If you can tell me where and when and how I'll be happy to cooperate.

You do understand there are many vested interests in how things are done now. They won't like change. Perhaps you know of a small town or school board willing to look at new ideas?

I will look for a when and where sir.

If I did I would be applying to work for them. Sadly the district I work at is not proactive and not innovative.

My experience of school boards and education administration is that they are very resistant to change. I wish you well.

I really like your ideas. Teachers are professionals, and yet we are underpaid, bossed and bullied even by students, and the principal and school authorities often work against us instead of for us.
Great ideas.

Spread the word.

Underpaid how? In every part of the country, teachers make more than the average adult in the community.

Wow. Only in a lib/prog world would anyone think that a principle should be selected by teachers.

You've got this all wrong.

Parents, students and administrators should be grading teachers and unions should be totally abolished from schools.

Marilyn,

Did you read my suggestions above in the post? What do you think having the parents able to choose their children's teachers is? Isn't that letting the market "grade" the teachers? And who besides the parents should be doing the grading? On the basis of what? My system provides the data that is most meaningful for that grading.

Please read that post again. You seem to have missed almost everything I had to say.