Dear God, WTF?

Majorly confrontation, with God to-boot. I hope hope you survive this one John....Chuckle.

Thanks for posting in Gather Spirituality Essentials.

Ha! I hope so too! I've survived so far!

Now featured at Gather Spirituality Essentials, at the risk that Vaughan will now kill me, or at least dismiss me from the group!

You express what I'm sure occurs to most of us at one time or another. I would hazard a guess if everyone's life was rosy and exactly the way we wanted and anything we desired we could have without the ensuing regrets, no one would give a rat's ass bout God at all. Not one thought or well-wish would go his way. Totally forgotten or ignored. So, hence...the choice. He allows the Devil to play Devil's advocate and vex us, so we turn to God for a bailout package. And...when he does, that fills us with an appreciation that just grows and grows with time.
Of course..we could just not believe in Him,...find some obscure reason to believe we are just one more species of bovine with a better dress code, but does that make sense...really?

Terrific write, John. You address the questions...one must dig deeper to get the answers.

Thank you submitting to Gathers Luminous Writers and Artists. Now Featured.

I don't have a problem believing in God. I just don't agree with His ideas at times...according to the prescribed version of Him through Evangelical lens.

I watch my mother suffer through hardships and still remain faithful to God, but everyone has a breaking point. So I wonder how much suffering does God need to see from his devout and faithful followers before He responds??

This is where the dividing line of FAITH separates those who believe and those who do not. The gift of Faith brings with it great responsibilities, as evidenced by what you see in your mother. those of us who have been influenced by seeing that Faith lived hurt because we see our FAITHFUL hurt and it makes no sense to us as humans, that one who lives deeply in Faith should still suffer so....But your Mother's FAITH gives her the strength to LIVE it to a degree she does. YOUR love for her is important, your suffering in her name and in your own frustration is not having to do with Satin, that is a completely separate situation, BUT it does have to do with the great power of the LOVE that come in and with FAITH, a love so overpowering and giving that you just watching her, affords you the realization that, indeed FAITH IS REAL and that REALITY makes the ONE to whom we give FAITH remain, AND be alive and possible for all.
The love of God becomes so deeply ingrained that it works invisibly, and though we humans see the picture with our own powers of understanding, the REAL gift of FAITH keeps LIFTING those faithful even when it seems they are at the lowest point.
We do not write letters to Satin because we know of the evil and there is no argument that it is indeed there, but why then do we constantly question God, even when there are those who disbelieve. How can he answer when we say he is not?
Why would we not look more deeply into the faith of OUR loved ones FOR the LOVED one?

Hmmm. I respect and appreciate your explanation, Barbara! I like that perspective;)

I just worry about faith crossing over into denial of reality. But maybe I just haven't reached the full understanding of faith. Often, I envy my mother's faith and wish that was satisfying for me. I admit I have much to learn and understand in that department.

And I should definitely write a letter to Satan as well!

I find that deep faith deals solidly with reality. As in the recent death of my own husband who I thought would make it throughout his chemo treatments and be healthy and safe and continue to live, BUT the PEACE that I felt within myself, was not an assurance from God that Bill would live, but instead a gift of strength provided me as his partner in getting through what he faced. (This realization came to me following my husband's death)
With that peace within me, I was able to help Bill make decisions based on all the newest technologies in medications and at the same time regulate how they would be used in his treatment. (Without the faith in my center I would not have had that capability and i know that because even in the FAITH one can falter, BUT be lifted up time and again.
Bill led his own last weeks and in addition to having the best medical care,
which I and all members of the family benefitted from, I had FAITH. I told Bill the truth of that FAITH in my life. He wanted me to assure him there is a HEAVEN, and I could because I BELIEVE there is and that is what we discussed up until the night he died. (the week before he died he discussed everything else in the world that concerned him and continued to give opinion.)
MY part in our lives lasted twenty years and I found that at the end, when I could truthfully answer him with the TRUTH (my lifelong belief) that turned out to be the most uplifting gift for him and the six adult children he shared with me. Assurance that a very deep and abiding love is there when we are at our very lowest.
I have come through my second widowhood stronger, because I continued to feel at least and important part of something I had no power over and filled with more love than one person deserves. THAT STATE of heart, soul and mind is what it is about.
Now, that love and faith continues.
Of all ten of our adult children, there are those who question, stating exactly what you have stated in your post, others who have an abiding faith and those who actually have decided they no longer believe, but the discussion remains ever evolving and the fact that we are all in it together within the spirit of peace and love IS most important.
Looking around todays world I see many of Satans answers to letters we may not remember writing.
I always enjoy your posts and consider you a real talent in expression.

Thanks for the incredible insight! I'm terribly sorry about your late husband. But I'm happy we can have these conversations. It means a great deal;)

this was a great post!.....i totally love your thought processes!

i myself have had many of these similar thoughts, until some things started to make more sense to me (over many years of studying and seeking...)

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in the end, i have come to the conclusion that we choose our realities, prior to each incarnation.....we choose what we wish to deal with, the issues we want to work on, etc....that is is untimate in freedom of choice and freedom of action.....

that is wahat i believe, and will believe, until something better comes along...

=========================
blessings

Thanks Wendy! So does that mean people born with disabilities chose that reality before incarnation into this world??

that is what we believe......it teaches patience, and understanding of others

blessings

“Man is condemned to be free; because once thrown into the world, he is responsible for everything he does. It is up to you to give life a meaning.”
~ Jean-Paul Sartre

Now featured on losing our religion

Unknowning God

Jack Haas says in his " The Way of Wonder."

Faith, absolute faith, is the acceptance of walking with eyes fully open into the infinite darkness; faith is without expectation, hope, petition, or piety, or it is not faith, it is merely belief. Belief is a characteristic of concept, faith is a characteristic of mystery; for 'belief' is the acceptance of something we do not know, whereas 'faith' is the acceptance that we do not know.

…For just as we can receive the knowable only by 'knowing', so it is that we can receive the Unknowable only by not-knowing.

If God is considered to be the One – infinite, omnipresent, without a second, all-pervading ultimate reality – then what is there to know, and who is there to know it?

Making God into an object redefines the supreme divinity into an entity like us: a thing, force, or person that exists within existence. This anthropomorphizing succeeds in making religion possible, for now God can be reached via a "path," just like the Eiffel Tower can.

Begin here. Do this. End up at God's doorstep.
Neat and tidy. All that's required is to believe in the rightness of the path. God no longer is unknown mystery, for both the way and the endpoint are tidily defined.
Only problem (and it's a big one): religion has converted Godliness into a concept that can be understood by the human mind. Wonder and Mystery have been collapsed into commandments, tenets, beliefs, theologies, and other attempts to force the unknown One into the cage of conceptual structures.

Genuine faith is a rejection of these graven images that humans have formed not out of stone, metal, or wood, but words. Genuine faith is an unreserved opening to what can't be known or described, because God isn't an object.

When we have given God back his or her rightful being – which is to say, his or her unknowability – then what happens is that we begin to also find out our own proper place in the cosmos; when the event (God) which is so important to our lives becomes impossible to understand, then we also become impossible to understand, after all we were 'created in his own image'. And if that image is beyond our imagination, then we must also be beyond our own imagination.

When God's attributes are gone, our own attributes are gone, and only then is it possible for the two mysteries to blend into One; before this absolute unknowing occurred – when we 'knew' God and ourselves – we saw them as distinct, different entities – for that was the only way to 'know' them (i.e. by separating them), but when we finally 'unknow' God and ourselves, only then, when the lines of division vanish, can the separate entities merge into One.

This sounds great in theory and I'll need to read the book and study it further. My only initial problem with this is that I feel when we place God so far into the unknowable, where does that take us? I totally agree that we can never completely know God and that there is so much mystery and wonder surrounding him/her. However, totally unleashing God from our human understanding just doesn't seem to take us anywhere or establish in any relevance. How does being unknowing help us? God put us on this reality plain, with all the limitations it has along with being human, so shouldn't there some definitive and verifiable way to communicate with "His children"?

It just feels like God would be irrelevant if he/she becomes so unknowable. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the concept. Unknowing on both ends as a way to merge the entities into One, is something I'm very curious and want to explore further, so I appreciate the insight;)

John,

Could you describe the closeness of your knowable knowledge of God? Nothing wrong with knowing God. So, tell me some stuff.

Ahhh. I see. My knowledge of "God" comes from Evangelical teaching, which is faulty, anyway. So I don't really know God, right? I mean, essentially none of us "know" God.

Therefore, the bible and anything written about God or His "Word" is unreliable or completely false?

I believe that I have moments of spiritual clarity but I always hesitate to claim a real closesness to God, cause through my entire childhood and youth I never actually loved God, I just feared Him based on everything I was taught to know about Him.

Hahaha! Wtf is text/social network speak for "what the f*ck?"

I don't have a definitive or verifiable knowledge of God. Sometimes I feel like there should be, but I have no idea what that would be like.

I call it spiritual clarity cause I don't know what else to call it, but its just moments where an understanding of some experience suddenly makes sense to me. That's the best way I can explain it.

I wasn't taught to hate God. I just didn't "love" God the way it seemed to be felt and practiced in the churches I grew up in; which seemed to be this overwhelming, exuberant, blissful, and outward expression of constant praise. Have you ever attended or been apart of an evangelical church? Just curious. The definitive and verifiable knowledge of God is believed to be found and understood in the bible; the perfect Word of God and through the holy spirit. I'm not speaking for every evangelical. My post came from my own perspective and how I interpreted the influence of my church experience.

I'm actually very fascinated by the book you referenced and will explore that concept further. You've given me much to think about and study. I always appreciate that kind of insight and challenge;)

Nothing wrong with your Evangelical teachings, which may or may not be faulty. However, from the Evangelical teachings, what is your "definitive and verifiable" knowledge of God?

I'm not saying you don't know God. I'm not saying esssentially none of us know God. Who told you, the bible and anything written about God is unrelable or completely false? I didn't say that. My initial comment is the opinion of the author, nothing more.

Could you describe what a moment of spiritual clarity is? I don't know what that means.

So, through the Evangelical teaching, you received, you were taught to fear God, that you have never known? You sure had one good teacher. And, this teacher could never provide a "definitive and verifiable" knowledge (knowing) of God?

Finally, what does "WTF" mean? I don't know much about stuff, and need to learn. Help me with this.......

Your experience is unique to you, this would be true. Your experience is subjective, and can be understood by you alone. This is why, in a moment, it suddenly makes sense to you and you alone. You engaged in a personal experience.

Sorry, I wrote hate, but meant to write fear. You stated, you fear God. Is this true?

Is the definitive and verifiable knowledge of God to be believed only? Why does one go to all the effort to obtain the definitive and verifiable, just to create a belief? Sounds kinda odd.

Can the perfect Word of God be verified? If you verified such, then why the WTF presentation? Nothing wrong with saying, WTF.........but why?

Within your church experience, how did you become influenced to interpret your understandings. You seem to have had no verifications? Is this correct? I'm not finding fault with you. You seem rather sincere and honest.

Wow! There's a lot to answer in that comment. Essentially, you're hitting on issues that I'm having now. Your questions are similar to mine. My wtf post is a slightly sarcastic rant toward all those things you mentioned in your comment about knowledge and verification of God as well as my background.

"Is the definitive and verifiable knowledge of God to be believed only? Why does one go to all the effort to obtain the definitive and verifiable, just to create a belief? Sounds kinda odd."

I guess the short answer is yes, which is a large part of my problem with it. So, I agree it sounds odd.

"Can the perfect Word of God be verified?"

I was raised to beleive so because the bible supposedly is verification. Over the past 10 years, I have become less certain and confident in that and more interested in ideas like yours. There's so many centuries of Christian doctrine that deal with more of this and I'm not capable of explaining all of it.

I was influenced through my parents involvement, church camps and youth programs, the large Christian community I lived in and strict teachings that the bible is inflatable; thereby whatever was taught from it is right at all times. There was no room for outside thought/doctrine. The church set the standard to living right and moral.

"You seem to have had no verifications? Is this correct?"

For me, no. At least not any that I felt was sufficient; and I recognize how subjective that is. I haven't found nor am I certain of what would be sufficient. I always had a nagging feeling that something was off while growing up in an evangelical environment, but I was young and afraid of doubting God or my elders/teachers in the church. I was afraid of a god that would punish me at any moment for disobeying His laws according the bible. High stakes were attached to every decision or thought I had...

Damn. You've got a lot of good questions and some of them are similar to mine. I hope I've given some sort of sufficient explanation of my experience/perspective. I totally admit I have much to learn;)

Thanks John,

You mentioned,

"I was influenced through my parents involvement, church camps and youth programs, the large Christian community I lived in and strict teachings that the bible is inflatable; thereby whatever was taught from it is right at all times. There was no room for outside thought/doctrine. The church set the standard to living right and moral."

and

"I always had a nagging feeling that something was off while growing up in an evangelical environment, but I was young and afraid of doubting God or my elders/teachers in the church. I was afraid of a god that would punish me at any moment for disobeying His laws according the bible. High stakes were attached to every decision or thought I had..."



---this would explain the statement,

"The definitive and verifiable knowledge of God is believed to be found and understood in the bible; the perfect Word of God and through the holy spirit."

---Well, imo, anything spoken and written down should be considered relative truth. Relative truth should be considered falsifiable. Through some examination and verification process, there are times when something taken as truth, can be found to be false. This falseness could be very small, and with a little tweeking could possibly be corrected. But, everything in the mind of us humans is or should be considered relative.

"IMO" hahaha! Nice touch!

"Through some examination and verification process, there are times when something taken as truth, can be found to be false. This falseness could be very small, and with a little tweeking could possibly be corrected. But, everything in the mind of us humans is or should be considered relative."

Yes, I agree;)

John-Arthur, how is your Mom doing now?

She's doing better, but I still worry about her. Thanks for asking!

When confronted with the such ideals it very amusing on paper but not so very funny in real life - either of those characters seems to be takers and one is left in the middle with egg on his/her chin. Daft stories really, for they both laugh in their very twisted ways both learning from each other..again, its the person stuck in a rutt that spurs them on. Forget 'em and let 'em fight out their own nutty experimental games and if you need anything then learn to know yourself a lot better. Very surreal indeed!

Thank you for sharing and submitting to
The Surreal Circus.

if what we believe doesn't make sense, then it might not be right as religion is man-made...God is the source creator...spirit..."he" leaves the rest to us...it's called responsibility for our own lives...as we chose to experience this "reality" for our own growth... Great write, John

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Yep. That's one of the reasons I've moved into agnosticism these days...

Thanks!

no nothing and do no harm...that's about it