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There are some misconceptions that the OWS movement:
1) that it is about people who are "angry at the system" (eg. corporate cronyism) and want accountability,
The Truth:
The Occupy Movement may have some "angry" people who only want accountability for Wall Street Bankers and corruption in the government (And this is in common with the Tea Party); However, the anti-Capitalist vein is the real meat and potatoes of this movement. Socialists, Communists (including Big Labor), Anarchists, and other radicals effectively hijacked the movement.
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2) that it is grassroots,
The Truth:
The Occupy Movement is a mess, but an organized mess. It was organized from the beginning.
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3) that it has been "mostly peaceful".
The Truth:
The Occupy Movement consisted of two different groups; those willing to commit violent acts, and those who were not willing to commit violent acts. Unfortunately, the ones who were non-violent never strongly denounced those that were violent, making them complicit in the violence, and there was plenty of violence.
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Misconception #1:
It is about people who are "angry at the system" (eg. corporate cronyism) and want accountability.
A poll from April showed that in the Occupy movement, 53% oppose "American-style capitalism," 71% believe in "massive redistribution of wealth," 85% want "dramatically higher taxes," and 79% want "greater government regulation and control over the economy."
The Occupy movement is made up of many ideologies, but there are consistent themes. One prevalent theme is the call for the destruction of capitalism. Â There is no denying this. Well, what do our progressive friends want to implement in it's place?
Labor is associated with Communism, Communism hates Capitalism, and Unions and Communist / Socialist Organizations have effectively taken hold of the Occupy movement.
One of the ways the Unions have infiltrated the movement is to donate money, organize protests and pretend it is "grassroots". Communists call for socialism. Â As much as people want to separate the two, one leads to the other - or else why would Communists fight for socialism?
Anti-Capitalist (In Their Words)
"Our desire to end global capitalism manifests itself locally, showing solidarity with similar tendencies across the world. Instead of building a party or advocating a specific ideology, we come together to act against our conditions here."
Consider:
Charles Gasparino, New York Post
"It’s not an overstatement to describe Zuccotti Park as New York’s Marxist epicenter."
"I went to another Occupy Charlotte meeting, and was admitted to the "demands working group."Â The facilitator - they don't admit to having "leaders" - said "I am a socialist. How many here are socialists?" About 10 people (of 15) raised their hands."
CPUSA "Solidarity with “Occupy Wall Streetâ€
"A big challenge for the CPUSA and left, progressive movements is to link these demonstrations with the labor led all-people’s coalition and help deepen understanding that the path to progress must be through electoral and political action including defeating Republican Tea Party reaction in 2012."
"Occupy's Communist Problem" Forbes
"But while many Occupiers would like to limit their focus to big banks and other entities they perceive as getting unwarranted special treatment in the economy, others are just opposed to capitalism altogether. For these protesters, small businesses are fair game."
A spokesperson for the national board of Communist Party USA speaks to Occupy Chicago:
"We’re the International Socialists Organization… Our goal is to raise political consciousness to build a revolutionary party and work for a revolution here in the United States. The problem is capitalism… We need a new system that’s going to put people first and put profit back to the wasteland of history. Socialism is the solution. We need a society where everything is produced to meet human needs and wants rather than to make money off of them."
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This is a Cached Site for CPUSA (Link no longer Active)
"The two Southern California communists at the heart of Occupy Los Angeles movement are veteran party leader Arturo Cambron and his comrade, Lincoln Heights Neighborhood Council member Mario Brito."
"Of primary importance is linking it with the burgeoning fight for jobs and especially passage of the American Jobs Act. We can also play a role in offering more advanced programmatic ideas like nationalizing the banks and socialism. To have a positive impact, the CPUSA and YCL must be a part of the “Occupy†movement, participating at every level and building greater local support for the actions among labor and progressive forces."
From "People's World"
Andy Diaz, a journalism major at East Los Angeles College said, "We were promised a change in this country and I haven't seen it thus far. If you look at the doctrine of capitalism, it's just 'get wealthy by all means.' I believe we should work collectively, for the wellbeing of humanity in general."
From "People's World"
"We share the anger and frustration of so many Americans who have seen the enormous toll that an unchecked Wall Street has taken on the overwhelming majority of Americans while benefiting the super-wealthy," reps. Raul Grijalva, D-Ariz., and Keith Ellison, D-Minn., said in a joint statement."
From "People's World"
"Many union leaders have embraced Occupy Wall Street. Yesterday, members of the AFL-CIO's executive council expressed unanimous support for the protest."
From "People's World"
"I'm here because I see an injustice in this country; the middle class has been dying for 30 years. And now I hear from the Republicans we have to protect the 'job creators,'" said Nathaniel Costa a Brooklyn Law School student.
"Well I feel no pity for the top 1 percent. I see the top 1 percent making a fortune in the last several decades and people are suffering more than ever," he continued. "This is democracy in action. If the majority of people voted in this country a Republican would never be elected again."
From "People's World"
"At the press conference today in support of Occupy Wall Street and the coming week of action for jobs, Trumka was joined by a jobless 22-year veteran electrician and Electrical Workers member, Tom Rutherford. Rutherford has a college degree and is taking a course now to further upgrade his skills. "I'm doing my part to get back to work but Congress is doing nothing," he said, to create jobs."
From "People's World"
"Jenny said she hopes the end result will be a repeal of "corporate personhood" and "we'll tax the hell out of the rich, and that compassion and love will be injected back into the world, that's been missing."
"We struggle for socialism because it offers young people a future. Under capitalism it is possible to win small victories, but only under socialism will they be lasting. Socialism has real solutions to the problems of capitalism. But it won’t come by itself. It will come through the struggles of the people and those who consciously work for it."
CAPITALISM
"What do you call a system that promotes selfishness, exploitation, racism and police brutality, sexism, and homophobia? A system that wages unjust wars for profit, that robs young people of jobs and education, devastates our communities with drugs and poverty and destroys our environment?"
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Networks Ignore Occupy Demands for 'Socialist' Revolution
"Socialists, communists and Marxists roam the Occupy Wall Street rallies, yet zero network news stories since the protests began used any of those three words to label protesters or their goals. Network reporters won't even explain that protesters are calling for a revolutionary-style change."
"In the 19th and early 20th centuries, the ideology was socialism and the force was organised labour. Socialism failed as a way of running economies. It did, however, succeed in establishing welfare states."
The Occupy DOJ website has videos with Rapper Talib Kweeli and Actor Danny Glover encouraging people to come to the rally on April 24. They list the "endorsers" as being the ANSWER Coalition, whose steering committee is run by socialists, communists and others, and socialist group "Washington Peace Center." Also sponsoring the event were individuals such as Cornel West and Francis Fox Piven, two prominent members of the Democratic Socialists of America (DSA), in addition to various Free Mumia Abu-Jamal groups, and several "Occupy" groups.
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Labor Unions and Communism
Labor leader Andy Stern, former president of the Service Employees International Union (SEIU) has stated,
“The conservative-preferred, free-market fundamentalist, shareholder-only model - so successful in the 20th century - is being thrown onto the trash heap of history in the 21st century. In an era when countries need to become economic teams, Team USA’s results - a jobless decade, 30 years of flat median wages, a trade deficit, a shrinking middle class and phenomenal gains in wealth but only for the top 1 percent - are pathetic. This should motivate leaders to rethink, rather than double down on an empirically failing free-market extremism.â€
In the Wall Street Journal, Andy Stern Praises Communist China in an article titled, "China's Superior Economic Model", after returning from a trip organized by the China-United States Exchange Foundation and the Center for American Progress.
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Occupy Leader Admits Goal to Overthrow Capitalism, Build Communism (Video)
Former union president Mike Golash, was caught on tape Sunday revealing his political goals of overthrowing capitalism in the United States and instituting a communist government. Golash also called the progressive labor movement "a revolutionary communist organization," during an Occupy DC "People's Assembly" on August 19.
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A Sample of Occupy Signs Encouraging Class War and Anti-Capitalist Messages
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Misconception #2:
The Occupy Movement is "Grassroots"
"The individual most responsible for launching OWS was Kalle Lasn, a longtime documentary producer, radical environmentalist, and, by his own telling, lifelong “student of revolution.†Denouncing American consumerism as an “ecologically unsustainable†and “psychologically corrosive†phenomenon, Lasn has long derided “the dog-eat-dog world of capitalism†as “a destructive system†that has caused “a terrible degradation of our mental environment.†He especially detests capitalism's handmaiden, consumerism, which he blames for having spawned many disastrous “environmental, psychological, and political consequences.†In an effort to “wreck this world†of consumerism, Lasn in 1989 co-founded the Adbusters Media Foundation."
ACORN and its Reincarnations, Newer ACORN offshoots are likewise deeply involved with OWS. Fox News reports that NYCC hired approximately 100 former ACORN-affiliated staffers and paid some of them $100 per day to attend and support OWS demonstrations.
Communist Party USA
Bill Ayers
Rick Ayers
MoveOn.org
Fenton Communications
Labor Unions
National Lawyers Guild
Environmentalists
Muslim Groups
Islamists in the Middle East
Democratic Party Supporters of OWS:
President Barack Obama
Elizabeth Warren
Nancy Pelosi
Bill Clinton
Howard Dean
Al Gore
Keith Ellison
Russ Feingold
Raul Grijalva
Jan Schakowsky
New York city councilman (and former Black Panther) Charles Barron
Other Individual Supporters
The list of far-leftists who have stepped forth to support OWS is extremely
long. Among the more noteworthy names are: the infamous Marxist and cop-killer Mumia Abu Jamal, who says that OWS's “central focus†is simply “capitalism, greed writ largeâ€; the revolutionary communist and former Obama “green jobs czar†Van Jones, who calls OWS a “beautiful manifestation of moral clarityâ€; and the billionaire financier George Soros, who says “I can understand [the protesters'] sentiment.â€
Organizational Supporters
As for organizational support, OWS is backed by
The Communist Party USA
Socialist Party USA
Democratic Socialists of America
International Socialist Organization
The Socialist Peace and Freedom Party
American Nazi Party
The Revolutionary Communist Party
Freedom Road Socialist Organization
Party of Socialism and Liberation
Marxist Student Union.
Allies in the “Nonpartisan†Media
Several individuals working for the New York Times, National Public Radio, and NBC News have been caught quietly promoting the very same OWS movement which those outlets have largely portrayed as a spontaneous uprising, independent of any powerful, organized, or well-financed influences.
For instance, New York Times freelancer Natasha Lennard, who according to Politico.com “played a pivotal role in the media narrative of Occupy Wall
Street,†participated in a panel of radicals discussing the theory, strategy and tactics of the OWS protests.
National Public Radio host Lisa Simeone worked as a spokeswoman for “Occupy DCâ€â€”a chapter of the OWS-affiliated October 2011 movement—in violation of the network’s ethics rules which forbid employees from “engag[ing] in public relations work, paid or unpaid.†When questioned by reporters about the matter, Simeone said that because she was a “freelancer†for NPR, she was not obligated to abide by the restrictions, adding: “Our main focus is that we are against corporatism and militarism.... [W]e are not going to stop acts of civil disobedience...†Upon learning of Simeone's involvement with the movement, NPR fired her.
In one of many emails contained on a private listserv which was leaked to
BigGovernment.com, MSNBC's Dylan Ratigan advised OWS protesters on how they ought to craft their press statements. “I love what you're doing,†he said, noting that “we have an opportunity to convert the energy that you have already harnessed … where we can push collectively for a Constitutional Amendment to get the money out [of politics].â€
In yet another leaked email, Rolling Stone’s Matt Taibbi transmitted a distilled version of his article, “My Advice to the Wall Street Protesters,†wherein he expressed his “love†and “support†for the movement, and condemned the “unparalleled thievery and corruption†of Wall Street.
Another media figure, the infamous racist and MSNBC host Al Sharpton, made a very public appearance at an OWS rally, where he shouted: “It's time for us to occupy Wall Street, occupy Washington, occupy Alabama. We've come to take our country back to the people.â€
Many professors and Universities have been very supportive of the movement, teaching classes on the Occupy movement and even conducting "fieldwork" at Occupy Rallies. Several Socialist professors were recently invited to an Occupy Conference in Tehran, where they were interviewed for Iranian News Outlet, PressTV. The name of the story, "Experts: Occupy Wall Street likely to topple US administration."
One University in Massachusetts is having a day long "teach-in" about OWS, with one of the topics being "May Day and Occupy." The site explains the origins of the movement, as it "was initiated by the Canadian activist group Adbusters with the objective of expressing deep-rooted dissatisfaction amongst Americans with the way the country has been run and the resulting debt and economic hardship inflicted on ordinary people."
"This is Our DC as a part of the secret network of SEIU front groups, intended to create the appearance of a grassroots movement while pushing the leftist agenda and helping Democrats. This includes infiltrating Occupy Wall Street groups and bend their resources to Union ends."
SEIU Co-Opting Occupy Wall Street for Anti-Romney Campaign
SEIU donated $1,158,790 for “Our DC†to create supposedly spontaneous “flashmobs†of anti-romney protesters:
Safia Albaiti from the International Socialist Organization
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Some "Grassroots" Signs at Occupy:
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Misconception #3:
The Occupy Movement has been "mostly peaceful".
There have been well over 7,000 arrests, loosely documented here, with links to the news stories. There seems to be very little tallies on injured police officers, but there were many. A poll from April showed that the percentage of the protesters had become even more radical, and 13% have admitted that they have already engaged in violence, not just "civil disobedience." Is this a "fringe" amount? In the meantime, the movement never loudly denounced the violence.
A Minuscule Sample of Violence against Police:
- In Occupy Eureka, three Occupiers were violently fighting amongst themselves when a member of the Eureka Police Department tried to stop the fight, and ended up getting his nose broken in the process.
- The Occupy Wall Street movement descended on the International Monetary Fund convention in April, resulting in three arrests, one for assault of a police officer.
- Mob of Anarchists Attack a Starbucks, Injure Two Police Officers.
- On New Year's Eve, 28-year-old Zachary Miller, an Occupy Wall Street activist, allegedly sliced a police officer's hand with scissors as he was trying to retake Zuccotti Park. The scuffle occurred as the defendant was trying to push a barricade into a police van. Incidentally, Mr. Miller was arrested twice before for protest-related charges.
- Occupy Oakland was not happy about the protest held by 35 members of the South Africa Project, a group protesting violence by blacks against whites in South Africa at the state capitol in Sacramento. So, they counter-protested, resulting in violence. Two police officers were injured and had to be taken to the hospital.
A Small Sample of Violence:
On April 30, the Black Bloc trashed the Mission District in San Francisco. They defaced property, smashed windows, vandalized vehicles and basically destroyed everything in their path. They posted themselves causing the destruction online, where one can hear them scream, "F**k the Police" and "Occupy will not be stopped, especially by some f**king cop!" and "What do we want? Dead Cops!" As much as the Occupy movement seeks to distance themselves from violence, many of the Black Bloc group are active in the Occupy Movement.
Watch the video here (graphic language):
A report on the Occupy Wall Street movement takeover of a property was being covered by the local news in San Francisco. Just as the reporter said (twice) that the protestors were "relatively peaceful" and explains that anarchist infiltrators and the Black Bloc movement are the ones who "cause trouble," the news camera caught a crazy fool throwing bricks at police.
Right outside of Eric Holder's Office, Rapper Jay Sun told the crowd that since he does "a lot of political work in Washington D.C.," and "this type of work, it's dangerous work" and he would ask, if he was "locked-up," he said, "Please don't march for me, please don't do no rallies for me," instead, he would want everyone to start "killing motherf**kers!"
Once the speaker calls for the crowd to start "killing motherf**kers" if he was arrested... they don't stand and stare. They start laughing. After the crowd laughs (yes, it is hysterical to call for murder, right?), Jay Sun continues, "You think it is funny, but that is the only thing a government would listen to." He continues, "I would want people to effectively get the task at hand, done."
Occupy DC, along with the anti-capitalist "Anarchist Alliance D.C. Network," pulled down barricades and stormed several hotels where delegates were staying. Their Facebook page advertised the "event" by declaring, "On April 19th through 22nd, a broad coalition of activist groups will take the streets to protest the International Monetary Fund (IMF) and the economic, social and environmental harm caused by the global capitalist system."
One man was charged with crossing a police line just before 3 a.m. Saturday. Another man was charged with blocking passage, and a third person, a woman, was charged with assault on a police officer. No further details regarding the assault were released.
Occupy Portland (OR) attempted to re-Occupy two parks in the city. When they remained past closing times, police began to arrive. Occupiers were warned that there would be no "cite and release" if they were to stay, but would be taken to jail. Most of the protesters remained on the sidewalk, where their obscenity-laden discussion included talk of getting guns, racially charged remarks aimed at the police, mocked the police in general, and joked about committing crimes.
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In April, the Occupy Wall Street movement added to its extensive list of crimes on Saturday. After an Anarchist Book Fair, a mob of about 25 people left the event in the mood for some anarchy, tipping over trash cans and spraying anarchy symbols on local businesses. Police arrived to a mob using eight-foot-long metal pipes in an attempt to smash the thick plexiglass window at a Starbucks and needed to call in reinforcements to subdue the thugs. The group was unable to smash the glass, but did manage to terrify some of the 99%, who dove under tables during the attack.
When a sergeant attempted to make an arrest, he was allegedly attacked by two men with pipes. The men fled and the officer was taken to the hospital, where he sustained minor injuries to his hands and knees.
Later, police responded to a call regarding bottles and other items being thrown from a roof, where they were able to capture Alexander Penley, 41, and Nicholas Thommen, 30, who face multiple charges, including "assaulting a police officer, menacing, criminal possession of a weapon, resisting arrest, and inciting a riot." Penley, an attorney, is a high-profile Occupy member and has been quoted in several mainstream media outlets, such as USA Today and the Guardian. Apparantly, Penley is not all that concerned about his image as a lawyer or as a part of the Occupy movement.
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- Three men, Brian Church, 20, Brent Vincent Betterly, 24, and Jared Chase, 24, were arrested before they had the opportunity carry out their plan to bomb President Obama's campaign headquarters, Chicago Mayor Rahm Emanuel's home and other targets with Molotov cocktails. They were arrested on terrorism and possession of explosives charges.
- Two stabbings occurred at the Occupy San Francisco encampment in front of the Federal Reserve Bank in one week.
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Bonus! Anti-Semitic Occupy Signs:
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And this Guy...
And Some Extra Hate:
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Bonus Videos
Ami Horowitz took a trip to 'Occupy Wall Street' to see if the Hipsters, hippies & hooligans have the answers to all of the world's problems.
Who is funding the movement? writer/director of the film, Stephen K. Bannon believes that it is funded by a combination of big liberal groups, such as SEIU and George Soros funded groups, which is not in dispute. Andrew Breitbart believed that the anxiety that has been taught to children in school and in college about the American System, fuelled further by liberal media figures, such as Bill Maher, is coming to a head and that these protestors are being used. The piece shows one woman who claims to be a socialist, who stated that her professors taught her that socialism was the best system.
Why is Nancy Pelosi afraid of the Tea Party?
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This article specifically deals with the three misconceptions about the OWS movement. Many other issues are not addressed, such as the vandalism, the squatting, people being found dead in their tents, the relentless instigation of police officers, the shocking drain on cities, the drug use, disruption of campaigns, the ongoing anti-Semitism, weapons charges, and most of the other (non-violent) crime, or just bad behavior; eg. Occupiers throwing condoms at school girls, occupiers dumping urine/feces, or protesting for continued sex-trafficking, even a hate crime.
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Comments: 59
...bust out the Hammer and Sickle.
Well done.
...bust out the Hammer and Sickle. lol!
and
;-) Thank you.
There are times when I don't much care for the Truth. :)
My, my. Our President must be proud as punch.
Does a man good to see his efforts pay off.
I say we should give him some time off. Like the next four years. He can run again then :)
Thanks Renee.
THIS represents the democommiRAT party!!! THIS represents the left!!!
THANKS!!! GREAT JOB!!!
A stupid troll hits out 50 talking points over an irrelevant turn of phrase, and you smash him over the skull with fifty verifiable FACTS!
Killed it. I'm ******' speechless.
And I LIKE anarchy.
Warrior.
The more normal of society that Renee runs with should do the same because to be quite honest if you support that bunch of lunatics that are portrayed here then they are two sandwiches short of a picnic basket ( that's a British saying by the way that means someone belongs in a mental institution)
if you support that bunch of lunatics that are portrayed here then they are two sandwiches short of a picnic basket LOL ;-) love that!
Graham-Made me LOL AND go tell one of the teenagers the 'two sandwiches...'!!! Love it!
The adage, "we are known by the comany we keep" always rings true. We attract like kinds to us. There is a reason OWS was (a-hem) "hijacked." Perhaps to some small degree that could be vaguely true, but they and their goals were so akin to who/what they drew to them it was their own doing in whatever form it took. The end result is what they were, what they clearly represented themselves to be.
OWS' whole beginnings and the messes they left behind IMO can be traced directly back to Glenn Beck's first revelation of them a year or so before they even knew they would become a "movement." Beck revealed that forthcoming movement for the first time by exposing Steven Lerner's, of SEIUnion infamy, Plan to do just what OWS was spawned and schooled and did do. Lerner was caught on tape, it was undeniable, not that that kept the Left from breaking their backs trying to dismiss it with whatever absurd propaganda they thought worked. Right down to paying for activists and the indigent's appearances of "loyalty and devotion." Images of OWS' gatherings captured and exposed longstanding radical Leftists, many renown in their own corporate cronyism financial birthrights, posing as just the average Occupier. The movement was borne in the darkness of deceit, it perpetuated deceit and it drew the dark crowds that deceipt most enjoys.
There are sound reasons the Tea Party was not overcome with those types of "anarchists." Unconscionable intentions cannot prevail in the daylight. OWS proved that, even with hugely big money from a (pathetically ironic) "corproate crony" type donor list a mile long backing them: Evil is short lived and can only exist in the dark when good men do nothing.
You did nice work Renee, as always :). I'm so burnt on OWS' disgusting darkness I don't ever want to see or hear from them again. I know at one point last year a faction of OWS wanted to revamp their public face by linking any commonality they thought they had with the Tea Party. As a committed American Tea Party Patriot to the goodness of that grass roots movement, I do not want OWS' taint within smelling distance.
Why would Hezbollah and North Korea and Iran (with enthusiasm) get behind this movement? Hmmm......
Steven Lerner brainstormed the idea to bring down America's banks, to warp speed us into the destruction Obama seeks, for what he likely views as his own One World Order global kingdom. Be damned all of the innocent Americans who'd have suffered horribly as a result if it has succeeded. Praise God from whom all blessings flow. Literally.
Steven Lerner brainstormed the idea to bring down America's banks, to warp speed us into the destruction Obama seeks yet, nobody wants to acknowledge this......
Teaching the people to covet their neighbors goods.
I'm sure this will work out just great!
It's sad that in the early days of OWS (oh so long ago, lol) some of the really good intentions of the people where thrown to the wayside because of the outside influences.
Ah, Rob wants me to mention his fave OWS guy he 'follows'. He's about 20-25, dresses impeccably, often carries a 'Kill The Rich' sign or wears a t-shirt w/saying, streams live from nearly every big OWS event, esp. on the West Coast, always seems to be 'in the know' about 'secret' plans...like a recent protest at Obama HQ in Portland. As he's walking up and filming, he's saying "I'm not sure what this super secret event is , but I'm taking you there LIVE!" Soo, a 'friend' of OWS decided to turn the camera on him...oh and he was delighted! He has a HUGE following and was excited his 'fans' wanted to get to know him. Through a series of questions, for a really long ass time...we find out...no job, 'lucky to have the means to travel and film', very nice BMW rental, Gucci loafers...anyways, yeah...kill the rich.
It's sad that in the early days of OWS (oh so long ago, lol) some of the really good intentions of the people where thrown to the wayside because of the outside influences. yes, yes, yes
Do you know the name of the OWS guy?
Thank you for the great and thoughtful question. For me, not well. I just do not have the time. An effort of this sort would take showing up to meetings and spending way more time than I have. Plus the local chapter where I live went off of Facebook and onto a website that requires a username and password, which would not be a problem if I was going to show up for meetings. But without going to meetings I’d just be an online lurker and that would be creepy, so I am not going to do that.
Libertarians though have been trying to do the same thing and with enough success that it forced some OWS movements to incorporate, which generates a firewall of sorts. This may be viewed as a failure for people with my view but they would be wrong. Forcing people to admit that they cannot support their views without forcing the silence others is a win. If enough people did this, the movement would convert of fail because they’d either have to admit they are wrong or show those on the margin they are wrong but don’t care.
Forcing people to admit that they cannot support their views without forcing the silence others is a win. If enough people did this, the movement would convert of fail because they’d either have to admit they are wrong or show those on the margin they are wrong but don’t care. So it would seem that was a good part of your disinterest or perhaps better said, why you found there were more productive uses of your time?
Political involvements are draining; and making those two twains meet seemed particularly impossible (to me) from the get-go. I wished you'd "lurked," though, lol. Thanks for the update, John. Interesting to know.
Although I realize that both tasks are extremely difficult, I believe that it is harder to get someone to care about what is happening to this country than it is for someone to accept reason. For this reason, I believe there is hope for the Occupy Movement.'
John
Regarding libertarians, I do not agree with 100% of their platform, but they do, without question, hold American values in much higher esteem than the Republicans.
I am confused why they felt a need to incorporate, if you will?
Of course. With incorporation, they can be exclusive. They can create a charter and require certain things from members, things liberty minded people would abhor.
you found there were more productive uses of your time?
Yes.
I am still involved on some level. I have a number of people, Occupy Facebook "friends" that I have many discussions. I know what they are thinking and it is the same old canards. I like the challenge of my opinions because I know I am right, it is just far less time consuming to do it whenever I want online.
Always a pleasure Fren!
John
...I disagree. OWS is simply a front group for the Capitalist hating communists. We don't need or want the stench of the OWS crowd polluting the Tea Party. They can disavow the OWS movement and accept the Tea Party movement, or they can create their own movement. Infilltraitors are not welcome or needed. There are many who wish to dilute the Tea Party.
Regarding libertarians ... but they do, without question, hold American values in much higher esteem than the Republicans.
I suppose Americans could digress into that statement using a variety of arguments, but suffice it to say IMO: That does not hold true for Conservatives, who are 'Republicans' by liittle choice of their own. I often differentiate Repubs by referring to "Old Guard" -vs- Conservatives. I find Conservatives, "without question, hold American values in much higher esteem" than Libertarians, Conservatives understanding that unity is what makes all changes to follow possible, i.e., "Rome wasn't built in a day."
In the sense that Democrats regard winning more important than the remiss values they implement to get themselves there, I find Libertarians (for the most part) regard winning more important than values they cloak in 'loyalty to principles' i.e., as if held "in high esteem." Some of my best friends are Libertarians (lol). Most of their long-term goals are good. But none of us are ever going to 'get there' if we don't take the natural progression, which is working in unity, one practical snippet of progression at a time. Perhaps that is the same chasm you felt in your endeavors?
Indeed, a pleasure.
You'd have to go back pretty far to find a "conservative" that truly believes in American value as a moral principle that guides his/her life. Even Reagan didn't get it, social programs grew exponentially under his administration. Remember, it is compromise that got us to where we are today, not steadfast adherence to principle.
I am not a libertarian, I am objective. I do not agree with their pacifist advocacy. But what part of their views do you find less American than conservative views?
Probably to avoid personal responsibility for anything that they do and to protect their personal assets from being at risk.
Merlinn: I think both reasons, liability and the ability to exclude people.
The only true accomplishment with the movement was to encourage a deeper division between the right and the left. The government, the banks, or the corporations have not been impacted, nor are they concerned. The love affair between our government and the banks and the corporations is still in tact, and that is how it will remain as long as we have a government that sells elections, issues, and legislation. The movement makes a lot of noise, but only they are listening. The objects of their anger, (the banks, the corporations, and with some, the government) regardless of how clouded that focus may be, are going to continue to do what they do. But in the meantime, a misguided movement continues to flow blindly through the streets without understanding where they are going, or even what they are after with this process. And as they do, we become more divided, which is precisely what the government is anticipating.
I heard last week that Biden was even going to be in on this.
Are Democrats really that nuts? Really?
...oh, that's just my opinion. ;)