by ''The One & Only BERF ..
Member since:
August 28, 2007

HOW CAN WE PROVE WE EXIST??..............

May 02, 2012 11:12 PM UTC
views: 0 | 20 people recommend this | comments: 59

.

I am in a sort of metaphysical mood tonight.......

I just finished reading and commenting on an article written by Gather member Simon P., titled "What Have I Done?" (http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474981297684).......

It deals with stuff like genes and DNA and free will and other creepy-crawly things that go bump in the night......

Thanks to me, the comment thread briefly touched on the subject of Rene Descartes' famous one-liner: "I think, therefore I am"

But, is this statement true??

Or does the fact that I think merely prove that I think??

And, if thinking does not prove that "I am," then what would or could prove it??

If I wanted to prove that I truly and genuinely exist in my present form, what means or argument could I put forth to verify my existence to be a legitimate truth??

Can my existence...or your existence....or anyone's or anything's existence actually be proved in any way at all??

How can we prove we exist??

Suggestions??............

 

.

Comments: 59

Jean R B. May 2, 2012, 11:22pm UTC
LOL our creditors could find us.
Larry H. May 2, 2012, 11:25pm UTC
never got anything for him, have gotten anything from you in a long time.
Clifford N. May 3, 2012, 12:40am UTC
Berf,

Just stick your nose into someone's business and they will prove you do exist.
John Doyle May 3, 2012, 1:08am UTC
Why should you need to? Descarte's famous statement is arrogant stupidity He was a great at math but a lousy philosopher. Turn the statement around. Do people who don't think or cant think not exist?
Susan G. May 3, 2012, 6:29am UTC
Who cares? It's not worth worrying over since our existence feels plenty real now.
Larry M. May 3, 2012, 9:01am UTC
Prove to whom or what? Proof is in the mind of the beholder. It is not a property of the phenomenon. Your existence is something you are directly aware of. You are conscious of being aware of your awareness. (Is that self referencing enough?) But I don't think you can prove to me that you exist any more than I could prove to you that I exist.

So I ask, prove to whom?
Dennis Gilman May 3, 2012, 10:15am UTC
The trouble is that what is proof to me is idiotic reasoning or twisting of the facts to another. Two persons of equal maturity, qualifications and experience will examine exactly the same set of evidence and arrive at different conclusions, sometimes even contradicting each other. (Happens constantly in Biology :-D)
Larry M. May 3, 2012, 2:34pm UTC
Dennis,

Proof is far more than disproof. It's easy, relatively, to disprove something. But to demonstrate conclusively that some statement is true is almost impossible. (Including the statement just above.) Thus, proof depends very much on to whom one is proving.
Dennis Gilman May 4, 2012, 11:26am UTC
I agree.
Dennis Gilman May 3, 2012, 10:12am UTC
What Larry said.
Heidi S. May 3, 2012, 11:44am UTC
I often wonder about this. From birth we are taught by other beings that we do exist, and that the world exists around us, and in most cases are taught about the existence of a God. If left on our own somehow, would we grow to come up with the same conclusions?
Dennis Gilman May 3, 2012, 2:03pm UTC
I took my existence as obvious, but rejected the notion that God exists simply because I was told so and started out as an agnostic. As far as I was concerned, if God exists, that fact should stand on its own merit. His purported existence should be able to stand up to very rigorous analytical scrutiny. (It did to mine :-D)
Heidi S. May 3, 2012, 3:47pm UTC
But if you had never heard of God, would you have come up with the idea of His existence on your own?
Nancy S. May 3, 2012, 6:45pm UTC
Some one did.
Marilyn M. May 4, 2012, 9:13am UTC
Missionaries tell us that the people have always had some idea of God.
Dennis Gilman May 4, 2012, 11:31am UTC
Eventually I would have wondered. The complexity and intricacy is way too immense for it to be reasonable to conclude that it spontaneously occurred as rapidly in the time observed. Immensely complex unicellular life appeared in our oceans almost as soon as we got an ocean.
Joseph Breunig May 10, 2012, 8:08am UTC
The Rene Descartes' quote, in my opinion still has value, when considering our relationship to Jehovah. In The Word, we're taught that God is the "Great I Am"; in addition, we are made in His Image and a dim reflection of Him as His childrem (thus making us the "little I am(s)"). Also we are blessed with an intellect (and not dependent on instincts) and capable of thought. -Joe
Nancy S. May 3, 2012, 6:47pm UTC
I often wondered, not if I existed but if the world I saw looked the same to others. Strange ideas we have sometimes.
Leslie T. Jun 3, 2012, 12:35pm UTC
I have often wondered the same exact thing!!!
Kimmie M. May 3, 2012, 8:39pm UTC
I am more interested in how to prove I DONT EXIST right now... would make life a lot easier... just a thought...
Char H. May 3, 2012, 9:12pm UTC
Cool, I want to jump in here, but iPad dead. Be back later. ;-)
Char H. May 4, 2012, 12:42am UTC
I think the statement does it. I think, therefor I am. BTW, therefor is also correct. It matters of course who you must prove it to. The fact that I am thinking proves to me, I am. Speaking of I am, I am having a revelation of Iam. Meaning, when Moses asked God who he is, He answered, "I AM". I have been pondering that. The I am you write of here is the life we have. The founders addressed it as an endowment from our creator, life we are given. A right to freedom to live. I am, you are, we all are. And because of this endowment we think, therefor we are. Each of us, communes with God, with that life force. This also explains the body as the temple as it is written. the body holds that measure of I AM, that we each have according to our measure. Yes, I believe I think, therefor I am, and I am the only one I want to prove it to.
Loquacious Linda May 4, 2012, 9:23am UTC
oh so well said, Char!
Char H. May 4, 2012, 1:49pm UTC
Well thank you, Linda!
Jerry Kays May 4, 2012, 4:04pm UTC
I will go with Char ...
jeanne clarke May 12, 2012, 12:20pm UTC
does your dead ipad mean it once existed?
Sandy A. May 3, 2012, 9:28pm UTC
Enjoying the thread, Berf! :) And here's a link with assorted opinions (and non opinions, (if that word exists).... :) :) CYBER SPACE UNLIMITED
subroto s s. May 3, 2012, 9:41pm UTC
The fact that you have contributed a post to Gather which is eliciting comments from others, proves your existence, unless it is proved that the post is "ghost-written"!!

On a serious note, according to the Hindoo philosophy, everything is "Maya", or illusion. Even our existence is an illusion, which cannot be proved. So let's not break our heads over it!
Truth Always May 3, 2012, 10:00pm UTC
It can get mind boggling but what I would like to know is if I exist in this lifetime and in this world, could I also, exist in a parallel universe at the same time as me?
Stab a needle into your big toe. Your question will be answered :)
Jeff H. May 4, 2012, 1:29am UTC
We can't prove we exist. "I think therefore I am" means you think you are something.

Everything evolves around faith. Atheism really doesn't exist.
Dennis Gilman May 4, 2012, 11:33am UTC
Atheism exists. It's just that atheists illogically deny that they too are exercising faith. :-D
Dennis Gilman May 4, 2012, 11:35am UTC
They hat when we say this, but it actually requires more faith to be an atheist than to be a theist.

Agnosticism requires the least faith of all. (Right Larry? :-D)
Marilyn M. May 5, 2012, 8:52am UTC
Dennis, it does take huge faith to believe that a person comes from nothing.
Dennis Gilman May 7, 2012, 5:55pm UTC
R.F. maintaining the disbelief in God in spite of so many things indicating that it did not all happen spontaneously requires immense faith; more that I am willing to exercise.

Immensely complex life appeared on this planet almost as soon as it got an ocean. That is undoubted. To maintain that it happened that quickly spontaneously requires faith, tons of faith.
CL Mareydt May 4, 2012, 10:35am UTC
EXISTENCE IS FUTILE YOU WILL BE ASSIMILATED ...
Dennis Gilman May 4, 2012, 11:40am UTC
How do I know that Berf exists? Well that is one example of my using faith to conclude that she does; she has written her thought down, so since she obviously thinks, then she exists.

Of course, all of this could be simply an illusion. Can non-existent entities experience illusions?
Marilyn M. May 5, 2012, 8:53am UTC
Sometimes Berf disappears. Does she exist then?
Osofo Addo May 4, 2012, 1:01pm UTC
I think I am therefore I exist..... what can I say???????
Christopher B. May 4, 2012, 3:33pm UTC
It is almost impossible to prove you exist to someone else and it's probably equally impossible to prove they exist. The only thing you need to be certain of is your own existance and the only person who needs the proof is yourself. (That's why Descartes only made the statement in the first person. He's not sure if you think and he's not sure you are.) Much like in quantum mechanics observations solidifiy uncertain conditions, sentience solidifies existance. So we really could modify the argument by saying, "I observe my thought process, therefore I am."
Jerry Kays May 4, 2012, 4:09pm UTC
All is relative, thinking is subjective, 5 sensory experience is objective then subjectively realized. As we think so it is, we make our own reality and share it with our co-creators ... the "mind" is subjective as the brain is objective, we are spiritual beings (subjective) having a physical experience (objective).

IMnsHO and E.
Jan S. May 4, 2012, 9:37pm UTC
Why not try proving we don't exist and see how easy it is to believe we do exist?
Danielle P. May 5, 2012, 6:08am UTC
Great discussion!
Vaughan Jones May 6, 2012, 3:36pm UTC
Here we face this question again. Below is an article I wrote which deals with this thought of existence and self identity. We all exist, but we are not what can be seen or physically sensed, which is just our earthly material manifestation. I know that I, a spirit being, possesses and uses this body of mine and my mind(soul) which connects with the body and brain so as to have life here on Earth.

When you feel love and compassion coming from me it is the manifestation of me, the God created spirit, and not the body you see.
Here's the link:
Identity Crisis-Mind/Soul, Body or Spirit.
Love y'all and bless you Big Time
Charles Ashurst May 7, 2012, 3:05pm UTC
Can you prove that you exist? The question rather reminds me of aruguing with climate change deniers.
Bethany C. May 8, 2012, 4:21pm UTC
I exist. And I am telling you that you exist. But you could be like a lot of other people who believe that someone who exists, doesn't exist. And live with your delusions. :)
Nurse Nancy S. May 9, 2012, 10:12am UTC
This got me to thinking about our existence and those around us.

We are so caught up in our own lives and what is happening to us. Have you ever thought about all the other people around you and what is happening in their lives at the same instant? Kind of mind boggling.
Joseph Breunig May 10, 2012, 8:16am UTC
Personally, I have never worried to prove that I exist; however, I did stumble on one way to demonstrate my own existence - by publishing a book. Since companies, like Amazon.com, like to make money from my efforts, they are willing to list my title via their website, which inadvertently confirms my existence.

-Joe Breunig
Reaching Towards His Unbounded Glory
jeanne clarke May 12, 2012, 12:22pm UTC
The I.R.S. says I am. Therefore, I exist. The original quote, from Descartes, was, I believe - "I think. I am". Someone else stuck in the "therefore". Gives it a whole new perspective somehow...
tammy c. May 12, 2012, 4:22pm UTC
This is funny, I laugh, therefore I exist.
Mylinda Elliott May 28, 2012, 4:07pm UTC
I exist because others can see, hear, and touch me.
Robin A. May 28, 2012, 7:05pm UTC
I know I exist in my reality, but who knows if I'm not just a part of somebody else's dream/nightmare/fugue state. I don't. but if we go by if the government recognizes us, we exist, then yes I do...
but how do I know I didn't just dream the government up? maybe it's all like "The Matrix"?
Robin A. May 28, 2012, 7:08pm UTC
Plus when do you stop existing? when people forget who you are? when you think you stop existing?
After Elvis Presley died, there had to be at least 100 sightings of him. Same way with Michael Jackson....and Tupac just performed "live" at a televised show....and that just gets into a another can of worms
Morgan S. Jun 3, 2012, 4:31pm UTC
i guess we could all be living in a dream.
I used to think that i was actually in a dream. (i may have been 6 or 7 at the time) when i die is when i wake up from it. it's like a practice run for the real world.
and.... when i have to take that test for real, i'll get the answer right!
Zoltan Bartok Jun 26, 2012, 6:38am UTC
Well, I don't always think, therefore I surely know I am.
Ziyad Y. Oct 23, 2012, 1:56am UTC
Live & let live, it is as simple as it is.

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