California Dream Act: Governor Signature Encourages Illegal Immigration? (Poll)

However, it has two caveats: Undocumented immigrants must prove they are actively working towards full US citizenship. The other is they must wait until legal citizens apply for public financial aid first.

I'm still unclear on ... is there any entity in California that is allowed (or willing) to even ask if someone is here illegally if no "other" crime has been committed? If not, these caveats might be at best worthless, at worst a bald faced plausibly deniable lie tendered to mislead.

The completed California Dream Act now gives illegal immigrants the right to attend colleges and universities with the help of public state funds and loans.

It's outrageous. If we must let em attend U.S. colleges and universities then we must. And if we must, then I say let them apply and attend to their heart's content but at least make them pay for it out of their own hard earned money. What? Can't find a job? Welcome to the U.S. job market such as it is, take a number and get at the end of the line.

From the article: This echoes a statement Texas Governor Rick Perry said during a GOP debate. He too would support the new measure in his state, as he believes all children have a right to an education.

I think we've already got a version of the nightmare act in Texas. That and Perry's silly statements are part of the reason his popularity as a viable presidential candidate has tanked. If he's the last man standing he'll get my vote in November 2012 ... but I'll be voting for someone else in the primary.

Love the poll btw. I checked the first three choices (as did most people it seems).

NO...NO....NO.....NO.....NO...Exactly, What friggin part of ILLEGAL don't you get, I don't care about your kids, your family, your mom or dad...I care about mine/ours....Americans who have lived, died, sacrificed for this country not someone who wants a friggin free ride to the dream....Find it somewhere else!!!!!

What part of illegal don't they get? All of it ... or none of it depending on how you read the question. To be clear it seems to me those who support the act are clueless or deliberately ignorant of 'illegal'.

For instance if the parents were jewel theives or robbed grocery stores for a living, or had stolen 20 identities and committed worldwide fraud in amounts equal to the tax base of this country would we give their children a free ride to Universities after the parents were justly convicted and sent to jail just because those children were put into a situation where they were deprived of parents by those very parents' own actions?

Well, we don't put the children in jail with their parents, but we also most certainly don't and shouldn't give them a free ride over and above other children who's parents didn't committ an illegal act. To put it another way, just because the actions of their own parents caused the children to be left without family or access to legal resources other than getting their own job if/when they are able doesn't mean it's society's responsibility to pay for their education (after having already been robbed by the parents in one way or another).

Maybe their local churches would but hopefully our own government would not.

I noted the same thing from the article (you probably read it above). Here's what I said (followed by what you said):

I'm still unclear on ... is there any entity in California that is allowed (or willing) to even ask if someone is here illegally if no "other" crime has been committed? If not, these caveats might be at best worthless, at worst a bald faced plausibly deniable lie tendered to mislead.

I M KIDNO 7 Oct 9, 2011, 12:12pm EDT
However, it has two caveats: Undocumented immigrants must prove they are actively working towards full US citizenship. The other is they must wait until legal citizens apply for public financial aid first.

Problem with that: It's only on paper, who does/will monitor and enforce that? We see what the law is now, AND how it is not being enforced. Right?

We LET them do it, and only by voting can we take it back.

We LET them do it, and only by voting can we take it back.

Agreed Joy.

If you have any reservations about the above comment look at the icon and realize how many of my brothers have died over the past 20 yrs to preserve our freedom, regardless of the administration in power. We have fought and died for this country and I'll be damned if I am gonna give willing any onw the right to come here and reap the benefits of what have fought for...

Screw them and take your sorry asses somewhere else, how about work as hard to make you're country successful as you do trying to invade mine!!!!

Exactly Todd and I M... Why, dont they clean up their own country? Instead, of trying to mooch off of the taxpayers in this country.. Enough is enough.. Why, is it that we are to support every foreign illegal that comes into this country?
IF Governor Brown wants this bill set into motion , let him support them... I thought California was broke? The taxpayers are fed up... We have enought to support now.. Our backs are broken ... These illegals are bleeding our system... Send them back across the border where many of our jobs have gone too... There is work for them in their own country..

Vickey said: Why, dont they clean up their own country...?

It's a scary thing to try to go up against what they face there ... druggies gone wild (cartels) with police and feds supporting them (no matter if they feel as if they have to support them or get killed; the fact is the drug cartels have free reign there because of the willing or unwilling support they get from government, police, and the people). Scary.

However, no matter how scary it might be, your question is valid. And the answer is that it's easier to mooch (find freedom) from someone else than it is to fight for it for oneself - especially against animals that populate cartels and their endorsers/enablers/supporters. +shrug+

Not sure I'd be up to the task ... but even so the question is still valid. WHY don't they clean up their own country instead of coming here mooching off us?

What, you (not you personally of course) say they pay taxes so they aren't actually moochers? Let me get my tiny little violin and play a sad song for that. As long as they are illegal I call it a 'fee for use' which does not give them the right to the same access (much less preferential access to government 'help' the DREAM ACT gives) that actual citizens who pay taxes may expect.

Vickey said: IF Governor Brown wants this bill set into motion , let him support them...

If it was the case that ONLY the states which passed this kind of deal for illegals were the ones who paid the price for it ... that would be fine (let them pay the piper for the tune they dance to); but as you say, "I thought California was broke" so guess what, they probably won't be paying for this 'act' for themselves.

And if they paid for it from their own state coffers without federal (other state's taxes) assistance, then I'd be the first to volunteer to help build signs pointing illegals to the states (or the cities in states) where they'd have the easiest time of it.

Agreed jj.

Why, dont these politians have any common sense?

Why, dont these politians care about the American citizens, who pay the taxes?

Just another sick political joke to ruin us all.

I believe that everyone in this world has the right to an education. You think the kids consciously made a decision to break the law and come into American territory? No...it was their parents' decision. They were dragged along into America because their parents wanted them to, not because they did something wrong. So I do believe that they deserve an education; we shouldn't punish the innocent people who didn't play a part in coming here illegally.

Everyone here keeps talking about Americans fighting for their rights, and that other people shouldn't come here and take it away. Americans didn't fight for equality and freedom for just the people in their country...they fought for rights and freedom everywhere. If a soldier is fighting in a war for his country's rights, but didn't give a damn about anyone else...well, that just doesn't sound like America's ideals. Everyone deserves freedom and equality.

And people here continue to talk about how terrible these immigrants are, taking away the money of our country. You do realize that immigrants do all of the jobs that you don't want, right? Immigrants contribute so much to the stimulation of our economy and bring in money. Honestly, you should be thanking them for bringing you food, roads, materials, services, etc.

I'm not saying that's it's ok to come into the U.S. illegally. I just think that there's a better way to take care of this situation, and I wish people would stop thinking of these people as these terrible, greedy monsters just here to reap our benefits. If you went to see their living conditions in Mexico, I think you would get a good idea of why they would want to come here in the first place.

Some people are so full of ignorant crap! I have been to many countries, many times, sometimes over long periods, having lived, learned and done business in several places around the world. Have you ever actually gotten to know someone from another country? Some come here and contribute tremendously to America. Still, many who would like to do so aren't allowed to assimilate. They are required to leave this country after graduating from universities with educations that could benefit America. And still more are denied these educations entirely, even when America is the only country they have ever known. This isn't a "liberal" or "conservative" issue; it's about common sense.

jj Myles,

Ok first of all, you don't have to "love" America to live in America. So now a requirement for living in our country is being patriotic? That's absolutely ridiculous.

And yes, I have met people from Mexico. Several times. And many who have immigrated from Mexico. They love America, which is why THEY CAME HERE IN THE FIRST PLACE. So that they could escape the poverty and poor conditions in Mexico into a country that grants them so much. They are incredibly thankful for our country, but unfortunately, many are forced out by our government, people who give people like us benefits. Illegal immigrants give our Social Security system 7 billion dollars each year. Do you know how much Social Security money they get in turn? $0.

And unfortunately, they can't "assimilate", considering they have to continuously hide from the government or they'll be forced out of the country. And the information I've ben giving you...it's not "liberal crap". They're facts.

Ruta Skadi,
EXACTLY. Thank you.

if they love it so much then why do they always insist on their mexican ways. this is an english speaking nation.

Robert Morris,

Wow. America is all about being a giant mixing pot. We are open to people of all cultures and all ethnicities. That's why we have so many different kinds of people: Europeans, Asians, South Americans, Africans, etc. America was founded on the principle of acceptance of one another. It's also about the freedom to do what we like. Freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom of press. THAT'S WHY PEOPLE LOVE AMERICA. Because you are FREE! Not because once you move here, people expect you to drop your "mexican ways" and only speak "english". I'm Chinese, and I love America. Yet that doesn't mean I must drop all of my Chinese customs and only speak English. America is all about the freedom to be who you want to be.

When you come to America because you wanted to escape poverty, to work towards a better future by having more job opportunities, do you honestly think their sole priority is to speak English? And how do you expect these people to learn English if you deny them an education in this country? And how do you expect them to assimilate with the rest of the country if they have to constantly hide in fear of being captured by the government? Illegal immigrants come to America to find a better life for themselves, but they must live in isolation and fear, so how do you expect for them to learn "American ways" and learn English?

Conservatives are always talking about how they uphold the "fundamental principles" America was founded on, but just take a look at what you just said.

Annie said: You think the kids consciously made a decision to break the law and come into American territory? No...it was their parents' decision.

The children in this situation no more made the decision to become a part of their parent's illegal activities than do the children of murderers and theives who, by their own actions, make their children virtual orphans when they are sent to jail. It's the same thing. The children face consequences for the actions of the parents. It's not a new thing.

A parent smokes in bed, starts a fire, dies and burns down the house. Maybe killing the children but at the very least makes them homeless as well as orphans. In this situation the children again suffer the consequences of the choices their parents make. Do we give them priority in schools the way we do illegals? At least orphans of fires (caused by the parent) are citizens.

Annie said: So I do believe that they deserve an education; we shouldn't punish the innocent people who didn't play a part in coming here illegally.

Okay, let's say I agree with that ... let's at least make them pay the out of state and out of district fees, fines, and tuitions.

Annie said: Illegal immigrants give our Social Security system 7 billion dollars each year. Do you know how much Social Security money they get in turn? $0.

And?

Let me elaborate on that by repeating something I said to Vickey previously in this article's comment section (with a slight edit).

What, you say they pay taxes so they aren't actually moochers? Let me get my tiny little violin and play a sad song for that.

As long as they are illegal I call whatever taxes they pay a 'fee for use' which still does not give them the right to the same access that actual citizens who pay taxes may expect (much less preferential access to government 'help' the DREAM ACT gives).

"The children in this situation no more made the decision to become a part of their parent's illegal activities than do the children of murderers and theives who, by their own actions, make their children virtual orphans when they are sent to jail. It's the same thing. The children face consequences for the actions of the parents. It's not a new thing."

Um...does that mean it's right? Just because it's not new and has been done many times before doesn't mean it's a "good" thing. Ok. So some children do face the consequences of their parents' actions. But they SHOULDN'T. And as you can see, in the orphan's scenario, at least the government does try to HELP the children by putting them through a foster system so that they can at least get some kind of care by families (obviously not the best at times, but at least the government is spending money to help them).

"As long as they are illegal I call whatever taxes they pay a 'fee for use' which still does not give them the right to the same access that actual citizens who pay taxes may expect (much less preferential access to government 'help' the DREAM ACT gives). "

Congratulations. You weren't born on the streets. You weren't born in a country where you're forced to live on $2 a day. Good for you. You must have worked hard to not be born into those terrible situations.

American citizens treat their citizenship as if it was something they EARNED and DESERVED. Most of Americans didn't do anything to "earn" their citizenship...they were born into it. So congratualations if you have a citizenship, but that doesn't mean you deserved it more than the others. So stop waving around your birth certificate as if it was a trophy or award that you earned.

These people in poverty have basically no other options. Mexico's situation is not fantastic, and as I've said before, their poverty rate is over 40%. So it's not like they're greedy and want to come to the U.S. to get more money. They come to the U.S. because it's the only way they'll have a chance at LIFE. So maybe you should look at them with a little more sympathy than condemn them for being lazy.

You guys are overemphasizing "illegal", as if they were muderous, atrocious living beings. I do realize that it means breaking the law. The sole difference between them and legal immigrants is a piece of paper signed by a bureaucrat. But are they infringing upon anyone's rights? Are they hurting anyone in the process? Not in the least. The only thing they are doing is benefiting everyone. Up to 2007, they had contributed up to $200 billion dollars to Social Security, things that you people will be taking in at an older age. They help you...so maybe you should help them.

I think the primary solution to this problem is increasing the legal amount of immigration, maybe even to unlimited. But right now, honestly, the argument about illegal immigrants is whether or not they have a frickin piece of paper. That's it. They didn't kill anyone, they didn't take away someone's rights...they're missing a PIECE OF PAPER.

jj Myles,

Congratulations if you had the means to travel to the U.S. legally. Unfortunately, many other millions of Mexicans can't do the same.

Annie, Thank you. I usually avoid responding to these kinds of imbecilic conversations from people who clearly don't participate in matters of their own opinions (getting an education, in this case). But I appreciate your candor, and this about a matter of critical importance if this country wants to stay in the forefront of an increasingly competitive world.

America has a choice to either support educating its own population, or condemn some segment of it to ignorance. It's that simple, and I can't imagine a single benefit to the latter (except perhaps for some politicians looking for useful idiots). But the opinions you're facing here are from the perspectives of either fear, bigotry, nationalism, ignorance, or combinations thereof. And unfortunately, these views can't be answered through any amount of reason.

Well said, Annie!

I agree that punishing children for the "crimes" of their parents is a bad idea. Especially when the "crimes" we're talking about may be no more than violating the terms of a visa, or crossing a border without authorization.

I wouldn't be surprised one bit if most (and probably all) of the people here asking "What part of ILLEGAL don't they understand?" have engaged in ILLEGAL activities themselves.

Speeding. Jaywalking. Assault. Failure to pay child support. Writing hot checks. Fraud. Theft. Driving While Intoxicated. Illegal drug use. Who knows? And yet here they are insisting that these people should be denied the opportunity to get an education because their parents brought or kept them in the US without authorization.

jj Myles,

Did I say that the murderers and thieves and rapists should free? No. I said that they are put to jail, while their children are sent into a foster system PAID FOR BY THE GOVERNMENT.

You say that this is "our" country. Yeah, the country the illegals help pay for.

Annie said: Congratulations. You weren't born on the streets. You weren't born in a country where you're forced to live on $2 a day. Good for you. You must have worked hard to not be born into those terrible situations.

And I give thanks to God every day that I was born in the U.S.A. And if I had been born in any other country I might also do whatever it took to get to the U.S.A. However, if I did it illegally I would also expect to pay the consequences for that. And my children would too. Just as they do in the case of every decision I, as the parent, make.

Children born to druggies face possible addiction at birth. Even if they are not themselves born addicted, most times they face lifetimes of health issues due to their parent's decisions to do drugs or drink while pregnant. While the parents make worthless decisions to do the wrong thing time and again, the results are not right or wrong they are just a fact of life (make bad decisions bad things happen as a result). Then, even if we do try to help those children (and we do) they will face the consequences of their parent's worthless decisions during their entire lives.

So, we allow the children of illegals to to go to primary schools and high school on our dime because we feel sorry that their parents made a bad decision to come across illegally (just like we would for children of druggies and burglars and theives and frauds) ... but do we have to compound that 'help' by giving them extra access to even more for University? Access over and above what citizens get because their parents did them the disservice of remaining illegal? I don't think so.

Speeding.

Sometimes ... still a citizen though.

Jaywalking.

No.

Assault.

Nope.

Failure to pay child support.

Nope.

Writing hot checks.

Never intentionally ... just bad bookkeeping skills, and none for many many years.

Fraud.

Never.

Theft.

Never. Not even a piece of gum when young.

Driving While Intoxicated. Illegal drug use.

Never after becoming a parent. One grows up eventually and puts stupid childish things like that behind one

Who knows? And yet here they are insisting that these people should be denied the opportunity to get an education because their parents brought or kept them in the US without authorization.

Not saying they shouldn't get an education (although I think even elementary school children of illegals ought to have to at least pay an out of state fee/fine) ---

Just don't think we should be subsidizing them over and above actual citizens when they get to college age. Let them figure out how to go, how to deal with and resolve their own illegal status individually, and let them figure out how to pay for it even if it takes them a bit longer than it might take a citizen. But no heaven-sent giveaway dole-out for illegals even if they never figure out a way to get that higher education ...

We have made ourselves responsible for their elementary and high school education, why should we expand that to include making sure they get a college education? They have to take responsibility for themselves at some point, and the parents ought to see some consequence of their previous choices ... if that means their children don't get a university education so be it.

In fact even with just the elementary and highschool education they are sooo much better off than they would have been in their country of origin (which is what the parents claim they wanted). Sooo they ought to just be glad for that but noooo the hand is always out.

Same here jj. Similar family story.

And I agree that it's just too bad too sad if someone doesn't like the fact that illegals do not deserve the respect or access that legal immigrants have a right to expect and receive.

jj Myles Oct 10, 2011, 1:15am EDT
@ Ruta Skadi , You asked... Have you ever actually gotten to know someone from another country? Yes I have. My father My grandparents, My older brother, Many aunts and uncles and several cousins. Those that have come here did so llegally and they consider America their home and they love this nation. So you can shove it if you don't like the fact that Legal immigrants deserve the respect that illegals have now right to expect since they are criminals who have violated the laws of our country..

Did I say that the murderers and thieves and rapists should free? No. I said that they are put to jail, while their children are sent into a foster system PAID FOR BY THE GOVERNMENT.

Again ... citizens. And they don't automatically get instate tuition in other states just because of their parent's bad character and decisions.

But the kids of illegals do get that help simply because they are illegal due to decisions made by their parents. It's silly.

Let them go to school if they can get in, but then let them pay at least full tuition and/or out of state, and/or out of district tuition. Good gracious they are at least out of district students hmmm?

Let them pay that tuition, and if an education is enough of a priority for them they will find a way...

... And if they do find a legal way to get into and pay for university schooling then we might end up with a very fine citizen graduate at some point in time (the point in time when they use that newly gained education to figure out how to get in line to become a legal citizen) .... AND they will appreciate it more for the challenges they overcame in getting there.

The law or act is treasonous against the constitution. Any politician who supports it should be executed for treason. Any school has to realize they do not have to obey any treasonous acts against the constitution. Time to grow up and accept the fact these people have no rights. They are invaders and war has been declared by Mexico for not getting it's citizens under control. the mexican retard president even supports the illegal crossings. what amazes me is american citizens who see nothing wrong with this.

Do you know what makes an illegal immigrant illegal? They don't have a paper signed by a U.S. official. So yeah, when they enter the country, the are breaking the law. Are they hurting anyone? No. Are they infringing upon anyone's rights? Nope. But did they break a law? Somehow.

Tell me, how is this act against the constitution? Where does the constitution say anything about immigration or anything of that sort? If you do find something that is close to immigration in the constitution, let me know.

You make Mexicans seem like these evil people who just want to invade America. Illegal immigrants have provided Social Security with 200 billion dollars so far. Illegal immigrants do the work that you don't do. The farming, the cleaning, etc...the jobs that only the most, most, absolutely desperate Americans would take. They stimulate the economy by buying products. There are around 10 million illegal immigrants in the U.S. today. If you took them all out, the economy would plummet.

These people are evil beings that are here to take over. Have you ever been to Mexico? Have you seen the conditions there? There is a 40% poverty rate in Mexico...meaning 40% of the population live under $2 a day. These people have families to support. But the Mexican economy is fragmented, and there are very few job opportunities in the country. Thy have no way of keeping from starvation, and the only way to basically continue LIVING is to go to the U.S. Otherwise, they don't have a chance. They have no opportunities. So stop looking at them like these evil beings, and maybe sympathize with them. People like you and I were lucky enough to not be born in such a terrible, horrible situation, so let's not take our situation for granted and deem those that were less fortunate to be terrible beings.

" Time to grow up and accept the fact these people have no rights."

Congratulations. This is without a doubt the most ridiculous thing I've seen posted in this entire discussion.

jj Myles,

Sorry, I didn't have the opportunity to respond. I had classes at Yale. Unlike millions of other hard-working people.

Let me analyze this for you. What I am saying is that illegal immigrants are not infringing upon anyone's rights upon entry. By the act of entering the U.S. illegally, they are neither taking anyone's rights away or hurting anyone. All they have done is enter the U.S. without getting a paper signed, trying desperately to escape poverty.

Ok, so now that they've entered the U.S. Now we can analyze their actions. So some commit crimes. Do we expect some people to be perfect? No. Just because a few U.S. citizens commit crimes doesn't mean the entire U.S. population of citizens should be denied all rights and deported. We can't hold these people at higher moral standards just because they are illegal aliens. Now, if you would like ME to give you a few examples, I would be happy to give you an example of a U.S. citizen committing a crime.

See Annie, I think the thing is that some people are just so damned terrified of, well, of just about everything, that it makes them feel a little better if they can find somebody to try and punish.

Some of them are scared of communists, and some are scared of black people, and some are scared of immigrants, and some are scared of a 79-year-old sociology professor, and some are scared of all of the above.

But I think the thing they may be scared of the most is the notion that all of those people they're so scared of might not be scared of them.

I M KIDNO 7,

I merely mentioned my classes because jj was mocking me for not responding. ("So Annie has nothing to say about my my last comment? Hmmmm. Could it be she can't find a way to push all the criminal activity by illegals under the rug so it will be ignored? If she needs more examples I can actually come up with thousands more for her. But I think she got the point. Many of them are hurting people. We need to enforce our laws!!!") With everyone criticizing my intelligence on this article, I merely wanted to point out that do get an education, and that I'm not pulling all of this information out of my ***, unlike some of these people here. And it also was used as a metaphor for everything I am standing for.

"OH how wrong you are Annie girl. By illegals entering the country ILLEGALLY they are infringing on the rights of EVERY American by immediately becoming a sponge for every and any social program that was intended for Americans."
Let me get something straight for you:

Welfare
Immigrants who are here illegally cannot get either food stamps or cash assistance. If they have children who are born in the U.S., those children are eligible for food stamps and cash assistance. But it’s just to cover the kids.

Health Care
Illegal immigrants are not eligible for Medicaid, the federal program for low-income Americans, and they also can’t get into the state-subsidized health insurance programs through Massachusetts’ Health Connector.

Unemployment Benefits
Illegal immigrants are not eligible for unemployment in this state. In order to apply for unemployment, people have to prove they’d been working legally in their last job, and have the ability to work legally in the future.

And those are just a few examples. Illegals do not take in everything that you think they take in. People just assume that once illegals enter the country, they just take a piece of the pie. But remember that to TAKE in from the pie, they must CONTRIBUTE to the pie. Illegals contribute by creating a bigger pie...they stimulate the economy and take the jobs that aren't taken by regular Americans so that the country has more money to be divided among the increased population. This isn't some "liberal crap" that I'm giving you...it's simple math. 5th grade math. Basic proportions. I can lend you my little sister's math book if you need some help.

jj Myles,

My friend's cousin was raped and murdered by a man 2 years ago. And guess what. He was a citizen. So here's my plan: let's take away the educational rights of every American citizens and immediately deport them back to their original countries.

You wouldn't know sob stories, because you have never lived them. Again, my parents are from China. And if you haven't been to China, then you haven't seen true, true poverty. People who live on pennies a day. My father worked on a farm with his parents. They had literally nothing. When you're in a situation like that - when you're in a situation where you are the parent and your wife and three kids are starving to death and the only way to start a new life is by crossing a border, guess what I would do. You make these people seem like they have evil goals in mind, purposely disrespecting our law and such, when their goal is to merely LIVE. You can complain about our sob stories all you want, but just know that we have LIVED them.

And yes, I know that illegals commit crimes, just like every other human being on this planet. And basically, you're suggesting that they be deported and face punishments. Do you really think this will make them less violent? If you concern is truly for the "safety of the American people", then you would know that if you are aggressively keeping them back, then they will be aggressive right back to you. A force applied on an object results in an equal but opposite force. Basic physics. Again, you can borrow my sister's book. There is no way you can stop illegal immigration. It will always be a part of our country. The harder you push on them, the more they'll push back.

Will,

Yes, yes they are. They're scared of people who are different from them. So they just try in vain to push those people away, when in reality, the exact opposite will happen to them.

it's simple math. 5th grade math. Basic proportions. I can lend you my little sister's math book if you need some help.

Annie,

Here is some more math for you:
Illegal immigration costs U.S. taxpayers about $113 billion a year at the federal, state and local level.

If they entered the country illegally and work here illegally, what makes you think they won't take welfare illegally?

Government education costs about $10000 per year per child. Do you believe a large percentage of illegals w/ children pay more than that in taxes?

Besides Annie, control and order are very important for maintaining law and order, freedom and safety.
Having rules clearly stated and adequate job descriptions,
as well as well as employee's under contract; that's what makes business run smoothly. Just rules are required for government on every level as well as in households.
We created rules for people to become Americans. And for the most part, citizens of other countries have honored our controls.
They have a huge list of Mexicans that abided by the law and are patiently waiting for their turn to come over.

I don't know why you are wanting to put all those laws and controls set up for fair immigration aside instead of sending home those that care nothing for our laws and make the Mexicans still waiting on list obey. That is very unfair to those who are trying to do right. That disrespect for law has already increased the crime for the Americans living there.
There is plenty of room for a difference of opinion in this subject that we shouldn't feel the others that don't agree with us are bad or stupid :) At least we can Try not to feel that way :)

mike p,

As I said previously, it's all about PROPORTIONS. That means when one side increases, another side increases as well. All you managed to give me are numbers on ONE side. "Illegal immigration costs U.S. taxpayers about $113 billion a year at the federal, state and local level."

Ok.

"Immigrants comprise approximately 15 percent of the United States labor force. They figure prominently in key economic sectors in the U.S., including agriculture, construction, and services." ~ So multiply roughly .15 by the U.S. GDP to get the approximate money they contribute to the economy.

"The latest research finds that recent immigration has a “sizable beneficial effect on the wages of U.S. born workers.” Wages are boosted “because immigrants stimulate investment, have skills sets and educational levels that complement those of natives, and do not compete for the same jobs as most natives.”[5] Similarly, a recent study by the Pew Hispanic Center finds that “[t]he relative youth and low levels of education among foreign workers appear to have no bearing on the employment outcomes of native-born workers of similar schooling and age.” ~ So multiply an increase in wages by 360 million people.

"A 2005 report from the National Foundation for American Policy (NFAP) found that a moratorium on legal immigration would require increasing Social Security taxes on Americans by $407 billion in present value over 50 years.[11] According to the NFAP, such a tax increase would cost an American earning $60,000 in 2004 more than $1,860 in higher payroll taxes over the next ten years. Conversely, the NFAP finds that increasing legal immigration by a third would mean that American earning $60,000 in 2004 could have their Social Security taxes reduced by $600 over ten years." ~ They contribute to various entitlement programs, giving you more money and less taxes to pay.

"Based on the CBO’s estimate of the impact of S 2611 on economic growth, the immigrant provisions of the bill would add $36 billion a year to GDP on average from 2007 to 2011 and $134 billion a year from 2012 to 2016. Over the next ten years, S 2611 could add more than $1 trillion to gross domestic product." ~ Allowing illegals to continue to work here and granting them amnesty would increase our country's profits. If you're so concerned about wasting our country's money, how about considering the billions of dollars our country would spend on enforcing non-effective barriers.

http://www.nilc.org/immspbs/research/research003.htm

Glome,

I agree. I think both sides probably have their rights and wrongs, and that eventually, we'll find the answer.

"Immigrants comprise approximately 15 percent of the United States labor force. They figure prominently in key economic sectors in the U.S., including agriculture, construction, and services." ~ So multiply roughly .15 by the U.S. GDP to get the approximate money they contribute to the economy.

1) That's immigrants NOT illegal immigrants
2) You are assuming everyone contributes equally to GDP

~ So multiply an increase in wages by 360 million people.

1) That's immigrants NOT illegal immigrants
2) You didn't quantify size of increase
3) We have ~140 million employed NOT 360 million (That 140 number includes the immigrants which would have to be backed out of the equation)

They contribute to various entitlement programs, giving you more money and less taxes to pay.

1) That's legal immigrants NOT illegal immigrants
2) Social security is a pyramid scheme - the future obligations outway the increased contibutions (Why the funds run out in 25yrs)
3) The bottom 40% in income earners pay -2.9% of the income taxes. That is negative. Lower wage earners actual take tax money out of the system (not including any govt services received)

mike p.,

1) Sorry, my bad. Here's a different set of statistics:
"Total illegal aliens estimated by Bear Stearns : 20.0 to 22.0 million**"
- http://pewhispanic.org/files/reports/44.pdf

The U.S. population is roughly 312 million, so 22/312 is roughly 7% of the population.

2) Illegals contribute around 1% of the U.S. GDP, which I will say is a very small amount. But this is largely due to mass deportation and restriction of borders in the U.S./aka Bush administration's/conservatives' harsh view of illegal immigrants. Had we instead worked on immigration reform and providing EDUCATION for illegals, the situation would be much different:

"Comprehensive immigration reform [CIR] generates an annual increase in U.S. GDP of at least 0.84 percent. This amounts to $1.5 trillion in additional GDP over 10 years. It also boosts wages for both native-born and newly legalized immigrant workers."

"Mass deportation reduces U.S. GDP by 1.46 percent annually. This amounts to $2.6trillion in lost GDP over 10 years, not including the actual cost of deportation.2 Wages would rise for less-skilled native-born workers, but would reduce wages for higherskilled natives, and would lead to widespread job loss."

"The temporary worker program generates an annual increase in U.S. GDP of 0.44 percent. This amounts to $792 billion of additional GDP over 10 years. Moreover, wages decline for both native-born and newly legalized immigrant workers."

http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2010/01/pdf/immigrationeconreport.pdf

~ Allowing illegals to continue to work here and granting them amnesty would increase our country's profits.

GDP is far different than profits!
GDP = Consumer Spending + Industry investment + Exports + Govt Spending - Imports

Any govt assistance people receive (including the $10000 per child mentioned above) adds directly to GDP. If govt adds $10 trillion in new spending then GDP goes up $10 trillion and the country goes broke!

Illegals contribute around 1% of the U.S. GDP, which I will say is a very small amount. But this is largely due to mass deportation and restriction of borders

Money spent on deportation and border enforcement add to GDP (see above)

Had we instead worked on immigration reform and providing EDUCATION for illegals, the situation would be much different

We DO provide education for illegals - Supreme Court says denying K-12 education is illegal.

mike p,

~ So multiply an increase in wages by 360 million people.

1) That's immigrants NOT illegal immigrants
2) You didn't quantify size of increase
3) We have ~140 million employed NOT 360 million (That 140 number includes the immigrants which would have to be backed out of the equation)

1) I provided the exact number above.
2) Here's the amount:

"For every one percent increase in employment from immigration, the study finds, a state will see a .4 to .5 percent increase in income per worker."

Here's the study: http://www.nber.org/papers/w15507

3) Either way, the employed peoples' wages would increase, and that increase would affect everyone around them.

1) That's legal immigrants NOT illegal immigrants
2) Social security is a pyramid scheme - the future obligations outway the increased contibutions (Why the funds run out in 25yrs)
3) The bottom 40% in income earners pay -2.9% of the income taxes. That is negative. Lower wage earners actual take tax money out of the system (not including any govt services received)

1. Again, you can find the exact number in my previous comment.
2. Ok...this doesn't really have anything to do with illegal immigrants...it's just "Social Security's fault". Although I would disagree, but let's not bring any more arguments into this.
3. "It also estimates the total federal net cost of households headed by illegal immigrants at under $10.4 billion."(http://www.factcheck.org/2009/04/cost-of-illegal-immigrants/)

And if you scroll up, I have stated that illegals contribute to Social Security, but not to Social Security alone:

"Illegal immigrants are paying taxes to Uncle Sam, experts agree. Just how much they pay is hard to determine because the federal government doesn't fully tally it. But the latest figures available indicate it will amount to billions of dollars in federal income, Social Security and Medicare taxes this year. One rough estimate puts the amount of Social Security taxes alone at around $9 billion per year." So the money they put into the system far outweighs the money that the federal government spends on them.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/taxes/2008-04-10-immigrantstaxes_N.htm

GDP is far different than profits!
GDP = Consumer Spending + Industry investment + Exports + Govt Spending - Imports

Illegals would add to the GDP each year, which means that our consumer spending, industry development, and resulting exports would go up. All of these contribute to profit in the markets.

Any govt assistance people receive (including the $10000 per child mentioned above) adds directly to GDP. If govt adds $10 trillion in new spending then GDP goes up $10 trillion and the country goes broke!

According to the CIA, we have around 60 million children under 14 in the U.S. So according to your logic, if we spend 10,000 on each student, that would amount to $600,000,000,000 and our country should be in shingles! GDP and our economy doesn't work like that. Education isn't just given to us for fun. Education is given to us so that we can use it to contribute back to the economy. And the same would be done with illegals: they would work and get better jobs, pay their taxes, and contribute back to the economy.

Oh, and we don't spend $10,000 on illegal immigrants' education. We spend a far less amount.

Money spent on deportation and border enforcement add to GDP

Ever wonder how much of tax payers' money is spent on illegal immigrant deportation?

"A high-level immigration official says it costs $12,500 to arrest, detain and deport each person removed from the U.S."

http://seatoshiningsea.wordpress.com/2011/01/26/blog-post-how-much-does-it-cost-to-deport-1-illegal-immigrant-12500/

I find it ironic that people are OK with spending that much money on deporting immigrants, but unwilling to spend a lesser amount on their childrens' education. If we export them, we just lose money in the process. If we help them, not only do we spend less money, but we also make much more money than we spend, if we execute the plans that Democrats propose.

"We DO provide education for illegals - Supreme Court says denying K-12 education is illegal."

Ok, good...that's a good thing.

Oh, and we don't spend $10,000 on illegal immigrants' education. We spend a far less amount.

2007-08 - $12,744 per pupil

That before the massive stimulus bill. In general illegals actually cost more than the average student because of the bilingual educational requirements.

But the latest figures available indicate it will amount to billions of dollars in federal income, Social Security and Medicare taxes this year. One rough estimate puts the amount of Social Security taxes alone at around $9 billion per year." So the money they put into the system far outweighs the money that the federal government spends on them.

Again with the Social Security? Already answered that one.

"It also estimates the total federal net cost of households headed by illegal immigrants at under $10.4 billion."(http://www.factcheck.org/2009/04/cost-of-illegal-immigrants/)

Perhaps you should go to the report where that $10.4 billion came from (http://www.cis.org/node/54) for a better perspective. BTW, most of the cost is on the state level, not the federal level.

According to the CIA, we have around 60 million children under 14 in the U.S. So according to your logic, if we spend 10,000 on each student, that would amount to $600,000,000,000 and our country should be in shingles!

Elementary/Secondary ages are roughly 5-18, not 0-14. Some of home-schooled or attend private school. But your numbers are pretty close.

2007-08 K-12 cost $596,610,358,000

Illegals would add to the GDP each year, which means that our consumer spending, industry development, and resulting exports would go up. All of these contribute to profit in the markets.

Hmm, you left out the major reason for increased GDP: Government Spending!

I find it ironic that people are OK with spending that much money on deporting immigrants

We shouldn't spend that much on deportation. We are much better off putting that money into border enforcement, workforce policing, and going after fraud.

If we export them, we just lose money in the process. If we help them, not only do we spend less money, but we also make much more money than we spend, if we execute the plans that Democrats propose.

We lose money either way, but we lose less by enforcing our laws.

mike p (and all the other people who I've been debating the past few days :P),

Ok, just looking at all the arguments that I have to take the time to respond to is giving me a headache. I have arguments planned out, but I honestly don't want to spend another half hour typing them out.

We've been going back and forth for days, just about a week now. I honestly think that there's evidence to prove both sides on the internet. I know that each one of us would both be able to keep arguing against each other, but essentially, we're not going to get anywhere. This is just going to be circular, and it'll last forever. You believe you're right, and I believe I'm right, and essentially, I don't think either one of us will change the others' opinion, because we're both probably very passionate about our stances. So I propose we just leave it at that. Let's just see how this all turns out.

Good luck to everyone. (I guess this is the appropriate ending?)

Texas has such laws , which means they are peeing on the Alamo and those guys died for nothing protecting america from mexicans.

And honestly, I don't even think this comment is worth creating an argument for.

Protecting America from Mexicans? At the Alamo? LMAO!-

Would you like for me to list every single criminal activity of US citizens?

No difference, granted the heinous crime they committed, except for ONE THING, They are friggin AMERICAN CITIZENS!!!!!

Annie, those crimes and many others committed by illegals SHOULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED if our immigration laws were being enforced. Law enforcement is a reactive response a majority of the time. If our immigration laws were being enforced, it would have a proactive effect.

Ok. So citizens can commit crimes, but are still guaranteed rights, but people who were born on soil different from you aren't guaranteed rights.

Illegals commit crimes. There is no doubt about that. Therefore, I'm guessing your plan is to "enforce the law" and try to get them out of our country and deny them education opportunities. Illegal immigrants will always be a part of the U.S. There is no way we can guarantee and 100% effective border. But over-enforcement makes the situation worse. If you don't believe me, here's an excerpt from a Washington Post article:

"It exists, says Doug Mataconis, which is why over-enforcement would be so counter-productive. "Communities where immigrants, legal and illegal, live are also likely to be the targets of criminal activity for a variety of reasons. If the impression is created that the local police are little more than agents of the Federal immigration authorities, then, obviously, someone who is the victim of a crime is going to be less likely to report that crime, or cooperate with investigating officers, if they believe that they risk deportation."

"Maybe someone should have protected 3-year-old Evelyn..."

Yeah, because that's what those guys were fighting to defend at the Alamo, back in 1836.

And speaking of the Alamo, I wonder how many of the men who fought and died there were in Texas with the authorization and approval of the Mexican government, and how many of them were in that country illegally?

Then I can't imagine why you would have posted it in response to a comment about the guys at the Alamo protecting America from Mexicans.

I think the most idiotic thing about that is that, at the time, the Alamo wasn't in America, it was in Mexico. And quite a few of the people fighting there were Mexicans, not Americans. And, as I already pointed out, at least some of the Americans who were there, including Crockett and his men, were there without the authorization of the Mexican government and could be viewed as either illegal immigrants, an armed criminal gang, or both.

I think it's also pretty idiotic to leave out the part about how one of the big reasons behind The Texan revolt against the Mexican government was because that government had tried to abolish slavery. And some Texans were so keen to continue owning slaves that they not only revolted against the Mexican government in the 1830s but they did it again against the US government in the 1860s.

The guys at the Alamo didn't die protecting America from Mexico. They died while killing Mexicans and trying to take Texas away from Mexico so that it could become part of the US as another slave state. And when that didn't work out, other Texans rebelled against the US government and died while killing Americans while fighting for their "right" to own slaves.

Will,

Well said, my good sir. Nothing like some real facts in this conversation.

Deaths that could have been prevented if Congress and the President would have secured our border and enforced existing U.S. immigration laws.

and that site is not all of them, I know for a fact, because that site does not list the senseless murder of a dearly loved elementary school teacher from an illegal alien driving drunk that happened just minutes from my home.

I feel for the people of that state who do not agree to this. We can barely take care of our own. What happened to the days where to gain what every American had the right to, you had to be a LEGAL citizen? If they cared they would have made the effort to be legal to begin with. These people are using our country. They piss on our flag and have no dam repsect for it! I remember living in Florida and these illegals were marching with the American flag upside down! That just about made me throw up my cookies!
I have known people who have worked in retail who have caught them stealing. They have gotten to the point they feel they can do what they dam well please, and get away with it. They are a disgrace to the many who HAVE become legal.
I beleive Jerry Brown has sealed his political fate with this one, and I beleive too that the citizens of California, are tired of being stepped on. I forsee a possible protest arising from this, or a serious backlash. People can only be slapped so many times before they break and say NO MORE! It's no wonder so many want to move from that state. I thank god I don't live there. What I saw in Florida was enough, for me to move.

dee b. while I agree with most of your sentiments, many illegals are good people and shouldn't be painted with the broad brush of liar and thief over and above the true label of illegal, even though many of them are those things also (but so are many citizens those things - which only means we don't need more of that sort coming in illegally from other countries, not that we should mollycoddle the liars and theives that come in from other countries).

That said, your comments bring to mind that high school in Morgan Hill, California where five citizens were forced to go home because they wore clothing with the stars and stripes on it.

The offense? It was Cinco DMayo and the Mexican students were offended because they "wouldn't do that on Fourth of July."

Here's what Pajamas media had to say at the time.

Students punished for wearing American flags on cinco de Mayo

"So here we have the Principal and the Vice-Principal of an American high school treating the Stars and Stripes as if it was a gang bandanna; even worse, the school administrators took sides in this imaginary US-vs.-Mexico gang fight by allowing the widespread display of Mexican flags on campus but banning (under threat of punishment) any display of the American flag.

NBC quotes a fellow student:
“I think they should apologize cause it is a Mexican Heritage Day,” Annicia Nunez, a Live Oak High student, said. “We don’t deserve to be get disrespected like that. We wouldn’t do that on Fourth of July.”

Disrespected? I’m confused. Aren’t all the students Americans? Who is being disrespected by the display of our shared national flag?"

As if the wearing of the stars and stripes could ever be an offense to anyone no matter their heritage who actually loved this country and the future it and we gladly provide for so many who strive for something better.

But the mindset of some (many?) illegals as well as many Mexican Americans is to denounce this country and it's flag and it's ideals as often as possible as exampled (and it's only one example of too many) by those students and the administration of that high school.

dee b. sorry to do this to you, but here's a toss-your-cookies moment you may or may not have heard about. Our tax dollars at work? We are financing this crapola?

His facebook page still lists him as a teacher in Cal. And his videos show what he is doing these days.

dee b. Oct 9, 2011, 11:37pm EDT
I feel for the people of that state who do not agree to this. We can barely take care of our own. What happened to the days where to gain what every American had the right to, you had to be a LEGAL citizen? If they cared they would have made the effort to be legal to begin with. These people are using our country. They piss on our flag and have no dam repsect for it! I remember living in Florida and these illegals were marching with the American flag upside down! That just about made me throw up my cookies!
I have known people who have worked in retail who have caught them stealing. They have gotten to the point they feel they can do what they dam well please, and get away with it. They are a disgrace to the many who HAVE become legal.
I beleive Jerry Brown has sealed his political fate with this one, and I beleive too that the citizens of California, are tired of being stepped on. I forsee a possible protest arising from this, or a serious backlash. People can only be slapped so many times before they break and say NO MORE! It's no wonder so many want to move from that state. I thank god I don't live there. What I saw in Florida was enough, for me to move.

I just got done viewing that video Lee and it more than made me lose my cookies!!!! I find it hard that teacher, one is still teaching, or no one has put him in his place. A revolution? And teaching this in a public school? We the white people are rascist? For real?! Hell we have been supporting these people off the sweat of our back, while our own do without! A free ride hasn't been enough? These students are actually dense enough to follow this man? This would make them ungrateful for all the American people have already put up with. Do they really want to jepordize this? What other country has catered to them as we have? It would seem to me if they want a revolution, how about taking it back to mexico and fix the problems you ran away from in the first place. Something has to give, and I certainly hope soon!

dee b. said: It would seem to me if they want a revolution, how about taking it back to mexico and fix the problems you ran away from in the first place. ...

Excellent point. He's a charismatic speaker even while saying things I totally disagree with. Imagine how much good he could do if he was speaking as energetically against the cartels and corruption in the Mexican government instead of encouraging illegals to come across the border in order to 'take back' land that was either bought outright or won as spoils of war years ago.

No, they rather bite the hand that has done much for them. Foolishness and beyond. If they ever cared about thier own country they would try to reclaim it and make it what it was and still can be. Like a spolied child, they only want more. Thier only alligence is to the handouts our country gives.
As far as making claims that they should get the land back they feel is thiers, I would think the American Indian would be making a truer statement, if it came from them.
Laws need to be passed, whereby the handouts stop! When they do, watch how fast they run back home. Have you ever seen pictures of the boarder? It looks like a landfill.

No, they rather bite the hand that has done much for them.

Yep.

Nothing ever surprises me when the State of CA is involved. In a perfect world, the DOJ would be suing CA and helping states like AZ, AL, GA, etc.

Eamon said: In a perfect world, the DOJ would be suing CA and helping states like AZ, AL, GA, etc

Might have known you'd be among those who noticed that bit of topsy turvy prioritization. lol Not suing the ones who are trying NOT to uphold Federal law, but suing those who are doing their best to help uphold the Federal law. It's crazy.

Illegals should be sent back their homelands. Illegal immigrants are usually Hispanic with many of them being day laborers.

For those with an education or trade skills, there is a long line for a green card to work.

In this economy many have been out of work for years - they have depleted their retirement personal savings and had to cash in pension to survive.

I think anyone who is unemployed would not mind doing seasonal work ..... while waiting for work. Looks like a good summer jobs for students to make some spending money.

When California has a $20 to 24 billion dollar deficit, amid the State suffocating under the millions of illegal immigrants that have invaded, that passing illegal immigrant ‘Dream Act’ defies any logic? California has now joined Texas and a few other states, giving taxpayers money for tuition, while legal Texas students are left out? Where does Liberal Governor Jerry Brown have the nerve to add another $23 million to $40 million annually for taxpayer backed tuition for illegal immigrant students? It’s estimated that 2,500 illegal alien students will qualify for taxpayer aid under the bill. This is the height of disgusting and incomprehensible when US citizens and legal resident, cannot get in-state tuition after their family brought them to America through legal means or the baby was born here. Brown may have past a Californians version of the unsuccessful policy, but those children and adult students have no citizenship standing? They cannot gain any citizen rights under the current system and can still be arrested under current law—unless President Obama has another cheap trick, like bypassing the “rule of Law.”


Adverse politicians to this 'Dream Act' law stated, that it will further attract millions more foreign nationals, across the state border. California--A far left Liberal state and identified as a Sanctuary State, will soon be very much aware of not only more people pouring through the border or flying into LAX international air terminal. But hundreds of thousands, may be millions will skirt immigration laws and illegal alien families will further collapse any chance of California outgrowing their financial insolvency, as scatterings from the new enforcement policing laws enacted currently in Alabama, Arizona, Georgia and very soon arrive in that state. Jerry Brown will have to face the voters in the future, when the reckoning comes? But then Jerry Brown and his minions in the state capitol of Sacramento is immersed in Liberal doctrines, that's why the Golden State has massive welfare problems.


There is a grading system for immigration records for each member of the GOP contenders for President and by reading this chart at NumbersUSA, you can judge for yourself, who clearly has the best evaluation of working for the American people and not the special interest lobbyists. Rick Perry, former Texas governor has poor results and the only personages who show great promise is Bachmann, Cain, Romney, with the rest of the pack trailing behind. Rick Perry however did try to pass a Voter ID law, but it was lost in a filibuster by the Democrats,\. The left will do anything to alter the direction of close elections—even to turning a blind eye to illegal aliens voting and destroying the integrity of citizens voting. When America is trying to overcome the 14 Trillion dollar federal deficit, we cannot afford to keep subsidizing the rest of the world’s poor. In fact the daily quota of illegal aliens who slip past our fence, just adds to the poverty already spreading here. Much of that poverty is brought into our nation, by these very individual, that ICE and the Border Patrol try to keep out.

YOU ARE THE VOTERS AND YOU CAN STOP THE MERCILESS INTIMIDATION OF ARIZONA, ALABAMA, GEORGIA AND OTHER STATES THAT UNITE?


The agenda of the U.S. Government have cultivated this mess over thirty years, but the major dilemma came after the 1986 Immigration Control and reform Act. Now that Governor Brown has signed into law the state-only ’Dream Act' he has assured illegal immigrants will get--public money. Whether they get tuition money from Taxpayers, they are still illegal aliens and under the new Lamar Smith's E-Very bill, their illegal parents will have to self deported, once they find jobs are no longer available to them. This is because “LEGAL WORKFORCE ACT” (H.R. 2885) after passage, will be a mandatory deterrent, to rid foreigners taking jobs from Americans workers. Corporations, businesses--large or small, will be held accountable, specifically under the growing nationwide influence of the TEA PARTY.


Company owners who still feel they have free reign and not subject to the law, will find themselves on the wrong end of sudden ICE audits, Hiring foreigners will be risking activity and their their company license could be canceled, then alternatively facing huge fines, confiscation of assets and even imprisonment. This is by far a very serious issue, because no matter which way you look at it, this is about obnoxious greed; profiting from the unfortunate 14 million U.S. Citizen and legal worker, who are being extricated in lieu of cheap labor. Even now Business that have illegal nationals in their employ, best be on their guard as the word in out to inform the ICE agencies, of suspicious incidents of employment irregularities. Here is the phone number to report unusual goings-on 1-866-DHS-2ICE (866-347-2423). SEE SOMETHING? DO SOMETHING?



Obama’s main players like Eric Holder and the Dept of IN-Justice are resolute in secret situations as selectivity in deportations. Just because an illegal alien has no heinous criminal record, you could actually walk free? This is not how our immigration laws are written? You enter America in violation of the law, you should be deported. There are very few mitigating circumstances. This is particularly wrong when thousands of legitimate new immigrants must wait their turn, waiting patiently for years. His executive decisions just draw thousands of more foreigners, into our nation looking for free handouts. The--Instant--citizenship for babies, under the present 14th amendment is a twisted, expensive situation that is just part of the $113 billion a year paid out in welfare entitlements. Adding California’s ‘Dream Act” further is yet another windfall for the 20 million plus foreigners, who have settled here in the US. This is unacceptable to the ordinary American people, who seem to being placed secondary to these foreign nationals.


The TEA PARTY is not defined by the GOP RINO’s that are the prominent politic of the party proper. The TEA PARTY is of a different breed that believes in a moderate government, with less intervention in our daily lives. The TEA PARTY is an overhaul of our political system, rampant with corruption and greed, that will overturn the tax code, that—only—47 percent of America pays, with far too many exceptions, loopholes and subsidies. Businessman Herman Cain’s plan of a 9-9-9 tax seems perfectly feasible where everybody pays. By now everybody has heard of Farmers complaints that their crops are dying in the fields, especial the tomato growers in Alabama? What hasn’t been passed on to the general public as admitted in farmers interviews with the Huntsville Times, that they couldn’t locate anybody to hire that was legally here. They the truth came out in the interviews, which they hadn’t even looked for workers at the employment office or advertised in the local press.


One farmer was offered free advertising by a community radio station, but that individual refused. According to the source some farmers were only paying illegal aliens $2.00 a box, but sold their tomatoes for $10.00 a box. Something is definitely wrong with this picture. Adding insult to injury the farmers were clearing over $200.000 in profit. Then incredulously the farmers and the big agricultural concerns give no benefits to their workers, so not only do the taxpayers have to pay for hospital visits, from the flue to a serious injury; for the whole family as well. Then the children have free education, thanks to the gullible American taxpayer. I am sure illegal aliens and taxpayers are exploited in any other state, in California for sure. The coastal state has one of the massive growing systems throughout this nation, and greedy farmers pay little for the work, placing the whole weight of their illegal aliens living here on the taxpayers. Internal ICE agents do not have the manpower to raid every despicable farm owners acreage, but this nefarious situation is sure to be prevalent everywhere.



If you haven’t really noticed where ICE agents have raided businesses annually--from meat packing plants, carpet warehouses, restaurant chains, supermarkets, hotels, construction sites, companies have quickly advertised from new workers as the illegal aliens not apprehended, have fled. Within a few days there are new lines of potential lawful labor of black, white, Hispanic gender waiting for the chance of a job. A chicken processing plant in Albertville, Alabama hired 125 LEGAL employees this week, to replace the 125 illegal aliens that left their jobs and fled the state—this just informs you that ICE enforcement is working. Contact your own local Senator or Representative or federal politician at 202-224-3121 and insist on E-Verify, “LEGAL WORKFORCE ACT” (H.R. 2885.) HELP THE WORKING AMERICAN AND STOP THESE TRAVESTIES OF OUR LAWS.

One Old Vet saying, “Stand next to me and you’ll never stand alone.”

MY EARLIER BLOGS: http://brittanicus-enoughisenough.blogspot.com

HEY ANNIE,
WTFU....yeah I did go out and fight, and what you have right now in your lap, the ability to talk shit, live your life, raise your children, if you have any, and pay your bills, hold a job, have a job for that matter are on the backs of people like me and others that fought and died for you to have that right...

So really what I want to say to you I can't, in the old days of Gather I would have told you to FO...But unfortunately in today's PC world I would get this thread tossed and ruin the possibility of everyone seeing what a complete ass you are making of yourself, along with all your liberal idiots...SO YEAH, I DID FIGHT FOR YOUR FU***NG RIGHTS!!!!...And for that matter, almost died for them...

Right on Todd!

Thank you Todd. God bless our troops.

And bless all of you that support them!!!!

As a matter of fact Annie,

Stare at that scroll and research what it means, I'm quite sure some of your ancestors died on the shores of Omaha Beach and Utah and during the weeks that followed D-Day, and believe me when I tell you that scroll was imprinted on the minds of men that wanted to steal this country from us as they died, only problem was....They died!!!...

And for your sake, thank god they did, or your president would have been wearing a really funny looking mustache on his ugly face right now, not that he doesn't already share the philosophy...

Now if you want to get into a pissing contest with someone you can ask Gather...You picked the wrong person to piss off, and you have succeeded. You wanna go tit for tat on all your liberal minded morality and all the shit your f***ed up president has NOT accomplished bring it on...Cause I'm not the one you want to dispute or debate when it comes to facts..

But by all means bring it on...Cause I'm really SICK AND TIRED of all this ILLEGAL bleeding-heart bullshit!!

Funny how the children of white illegals from Israel, Russia, Ireland, and Italy as well as other European countries are all over NYC, Boston, and many parts of the Northeast easily get financial assistance and other social benefits without any hassles at all. Go to Coney Island or or just about any part of Brooklyn, NY and you will see the white faces of people who barely speak English and the government or police never touch them. But God help any Hispanic or non-white illegal. The failure to apply anti-immigrant on a uniform basis is the real bleeding-heart bullsh!t. Too bad a racist Hitlerian like Lou Dobbs never made an issue of this double standard.

Now that's a stupid comment. I clearly stated that I want the law to be applied on a uniform basis throughout the country and not on a selective basis against Hispanics like the Lou Dobbs and other racists like him do. If you believe your own comment, ''Illegal is Illegal regardless where they snuck in from'', then you should be the first one to agree to my statement. And, in case you didn't know it, many of those illegals from Israel and Russia are here to escape the military draft in those countries. For years Republicans condemned the government of Canada for allowing American draft dodgers to escape there. Now, those same critics applaud when others use our borders to escape overseas drafts and God help anyone who dares to disagree with them.

Applying the law on a uniform basis is racist? That's total bullshit. Apply the law to EVERYONE across the board, regardless of skin tone or nation of origin. Only a racist Hitlerian like Lou Dobbs and his defenders will disagree.

" Go to Coney Island or or just about any part of Brooklyn, NY and you will see the white faces of people who barely speak English and the government or police never touch them. But God help any Hispanic or non-white illegal "

So are you saying that just because they don't speak very much English, that makes them illegal? But sense you are attempting to turn this into a racial issue, there have been illegal Canadians in my area deported.

" Too bad a racist Hitlerian like Lou Dobbs never made an issue of this double standard "

Lou Dobbs is married to a woman of Mexican heritage. You don't have a valid argument here at all.

Yeah, like Clarence Thomas waived a Dixie flag in the faces of his black co-workers which never showed his state of mind. I'm not turning this into a racial issue as I have called for a uniform application of the law. You in your racial paranoia can turn it into one but that's a reflection of your delusions and nothing more.

" I'm not turning this into a racial issue as I have called for a uniform application of the law. You in your racial paranoia can turn it into one but that's a reflection of your delusions and nothing more. "

But you wrote the following comment....

" Go to Coney Island or or just about any part of Brooklyn, NY and you will see the white faces of people who barely speak English and the government or police never touch them. But God help any Hispanic or non-white illegal "

Do you actually remember writing that luckky?

Well Tim, if you bothered to actually read that line you just quoted rather than read into it, you would see I am calling for legal color blindness in the application of the law. In other words, let's say, no 'affirmative action' here - use the law uniformly. Get it??

What you are saying is that white people who don't speak very good English, so that automatically qualifies them as illegal..and they aren't being considered to be illegal because they re white. Therefore, you have attempted to turn this into a racial issue. I get it just fine thank you very much.

You are hopelessly deluded Tim. Take off the blinders and come to your senses if you have any. Society will thrive and be at peace when it becomes fully color blind on this and all other issues.

But you said that you weren't trying to turn this into a racial issue. My advice to you would be to lay off the LSD while you are writing comments on Gather.

When people selectively enforce the law on a racial basis as they do with immigrants while people look the other way, that is a racial issue. The way to solve that problem is to apply the law uniformly, not selectively. This is what leads to racial and social harmony in society. If you could lay off the drugs, sober up, and see with a clear head you would have realized that.

You stated that you weren't trying to turn this into a racial issue, but now you are saying that it is a racial issue. I'm not sure exactly what your problem is...maybe you are bi-polar. There are meds for that.

When people selectively enforce the law on a racial basis as they do with immigrants while people look the other way, that is a racial issue.

Evidence of that?

The way to solve that problem is to apply the law uniformly, not selectively.

Absolutely

''Evidence of that?''

complaints about Russian/Ukrainian mafias and illegals in Brooklyn:

http://www.city-data.com/forum/new-york-city/230319-russian-mafia.html

in Florida:

http://www.helium.com/items/767801-problems-with-european-and-russian-illegal-aliens-in-key-west-florida-and-other

CBS Report:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/05/13/cbsnews_investigates/main4094344.shtml


book:

http://www.amazon.com/Red-Mafiya-Russian-Invaded-America/dp/0316294748


Russian, Italian, Irish, and Israeli mafias are all over the Northeast and Florida. You may even recall the movie "Blues Brothers 2000" where a Chicago based Russian mafia appears. These people bring in illegal immigrants by the tens of thousands every year without the slightest objection by Lou Dobbs or others in the far right news media. Instead, they prefer to focus on Hispanic illegals so that everyone else's attention is drawn away from these European criminal mafias. The selective enforcement of the law in this regard makes it a racial issue. A uniform application of the law would end the racialist aspect of it.

''maybe you are bi-polar. There are meds for that. ''

Timothy's psychosis can be treated with medicine and with a little extra reading such as that which I have listed above.

Russian, Italian, Irish, and Israeli mafias are all over the Northeast and Florida. You may even recall the movie "Blues Brothers 2000" where a Chicago based Russian mafia appears.

There are many sanctuary cities filled with hispanics as well. How does that show a racial basis in the application of the law?

These people bring in illegal immigrants by the tens of thousands every year without the slightest objection by Lou Dobbs or others in the far right news media.

Even if I believed that statement (which I don't), I was don't see that Lou Dobbs and the far right news media were out there enforcing our laws!

Instead, they prefer to focus on Hispanic illegals so that everyone else's attention is drawn away from these European criminal mafias.

That's a bit conspiratorial. And again with no supporting evidence.

The fact that the police and feds round up Hispanics while allowing these European illegals to thrive in our shores easily proves that the law is being selectively enforced on a racial basis. You still don't want to believe it, fine.

As for Dobbs, he isn't enforcing the laws. But he is focusing on Hispanics while refusing to focus on those Europeans. This selectivity adds to racial/ethnic division in our society.

Now imagine the reverse - suppose Europeans, Canadians, Israelis, Australians, and others were being rounded up, kicked around, put into cattle carts and hauled away back to their countries. How would the right wing media report it? And what would society's reaction be?

I read all of the material in your links and there is nothing there but complaints about mobs and one person's account of who he thought were illegals.

And why do you suppose that is? The answer is that the right wing media refuses to report the fact that European, Israeli, and other Euro origin illegals are allowed to live, work, and run businesses here. Had the feds and police enforced the law on a uniform basis the controlled media would be reporting to the rest of the country how these people illegally use our shores to spread drugs, crime, make money without paying taxes, etc.

As for the CBS report, you have also seen proof that there is underworld crime by some of those illegals. There are plenty more links online on the subject that you can readily access if you wish.

So do you want ICE to detain any white person who doesn't speak very much English?

Obviously, you are greatly deficient in your IQ and are terribly lacking in literacy. If you weren't, you would know the answer to that question already. So why not do yourself a favor (assuming you are able to read) and see what my previous answer was as to how the law is to be enforced. If you cannot do it, perhaps we can find a kinder garden child who can.

You haven't provided anything except assumptions. They don't speak much English..blah blah blah...so they must be illegal...blah blah blah...so I'll provide links where other people are assuming they are illegal...blah blah blah.

You really aren't very good at internet debate, luckky. Maybe you would be best served chatting on a comic book blog.

Not to worry - you fill that role for me quite well.

Come to think of it, a career in comic books would be right down your alley...or perhaps some other kind of fantasy land. Heck, you could create your own super hero to go bust those big bad non English speaking white people.

Sure ~ I'll begin with your icon. LOL!

Nah...you gotta come up with something on your own.

Timothy Dear boy ... for your eyes only:

Latinos Said to Bear Weight of a Deportation Program

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/19/us/latinos-said-to-bear-weight-of-deportation-program.html?_r=1&scp=2&sq=julia%20preston&st=cse


The report found that 93 percent of immigrants arrested under Secure Communities were Latinos, although Latino immigrants are about three-quarters of the illegal immigrants in the United States.


ONCE AGAIN THE GOVERNMENT IS APPLYING THE LAW ON A DISPROPORTIONATE BASIS AGAINST HISPANICS WHILE EUROPEAN AND OTHER WHITE ILLEGALS ARE UNTOUCHED BY THOSE REMOVAL PROGRAMS.

You have yet to prove that the whites are illegals.

Does giving Illegal Immigrants full financial aid from the California Dream Act mean the US is steps away from opening the borders? Is it fair that the governor signed this? Will all other states join California in providing taxpayer money to undocumented students in colleges and universities?

Brad said: Does giving Illegal Immigrants full financial aid from the California Dream Act mean the US is steps away from opening the borders?

Let's hope not Brad ... I don't think so.


Brad said: Is it fair that the governor signed this?

Fair? Assuming it got the Governor by a vote of Congress according to whatever rules for that kind of thing govern the California legislature ... If it's legal then it's legal. As long as other states don't have to pony up any money to help pay for it ... as long as California pays for it from it's own state coffers ... as long as the president's "jobs" bill doesn't contain any loans or bailouts for states who haven't kept their finances in order .... etc

It's up to Californians themselves to decide if it's what they want or if they think it's fair or if they can afford it. If not, then they have to figure out some way to start voting people in who won't continue to do this sort of thing. +shrug+

My personal opinion though ... it's totally not fair to citizens from other states (actual U.S. citizens) who still have to pay the out of state tuition if they want to go to Cal universities. It's also not fair for actual citizens of Cal who may not be eligible for a grant simply because they are NOT illegal. +sigh+

Will all other states join California in providing taxpayer money to undocumented students in colleges and universities?

I think Texas already has ... which is one of my reservations about Rick Perry as president.

Is it fair that the governor signed this? Will all other states join California in providing taxpayer money to undocumented students in colleges and universities?

The IIE (org for exchange students) acknowledges about 700,000 foreign students in the USA most of which get financial aid even though they did not pay taxes. By contrast, only about 200,000 Americans study overseas and most come from families who are too wealthy to qualify for financial assistance. Thus, the USA is subsidizing foreigners to the tune of multiple millions every year while few of our poor youth derive the same benefit overseas.

You as a taxpayer continue to finance the education of foreigners while complaining about benefits received by children who were born in the USA. Many of those kids have either one of both parents born here as well. And they have at least paid taxes while foreigners have not.

Why do we not see people on this forum and elsewhere complain about 700,000 foreigners getting tuition free education while so many poor kids in this country will never get the chance of seeing the inside of a college because they cannot afford it?????

The IIE (org for exchange students) acknowledges about 700,000 foreign students in the USA most of which get financial aid even though they did not pay taxes.

I didn't see anything on the IIE site showing MOST foreign students getting financial aid. Can you provide a link? Did it show how much if that aid was taxpayer provided vs private?

There is very little financial aid for foreign nationals to study in the US, with the possible exception of citizens of Canada and Mexico. Most grants, scholarships, and loans from public and private sources are restricted to US citizens.

Minimal scholarship aid is available to international students, and most of it is reserved for graduate study. Generally, U.S. institutions offer little, if any, discount on tuition, although both private and public institutions may waive application fees in some situations.

''Can you provide a link?''

The site you linked to provides no such data. You would have to go to each school's financial help sections for that info.

I'm not the one who made the claim that most foreign students get financial aid. You are! I am merely asking you to back up you statements with some fact.

Since you insist here's a partial list:

California:

http://www.internationalstudent.com/schools_awarding_aid/CA/California.html

schools like Pepperdine give 50%, Occidental 75%, etc with others less

New York:

http://www.internationalstudent.com/schools_awarding_aid/NY/New%20York.html

Colgate 75%, Elmira 50%, Hamilton 75%, etc


75% tuition aid is far more than ''minimal'' as your earlier link indicated

Your statement:
700,000 foreign students in the USA most of which get financial aid

Your examples:
Pepperdine 60 out of 236
Occidental 4 out of 129
Colgate 53 out of 141
Elmira 31 out of 96
Hamilton 54 out of 90

TOTAL: 202 out of 692 = 29%

I agree with you that we should not be subsidizing foreign students with our tax dollars.

However:
29% is not most and these are your sited examples. The numbers don't indicate how much of the financial aid is public vs private (you source provides PRIVATE loans which also require a US citizen or resident alien co-signer).

Occidental College website: "Financial aid for international students is very limited....International financial aid is very competitive at Occidental. Each year Oxy is only able to fully fund 2 to 4 international students."

Pepperdine: "Various private lending institutions offer private or alternative educational loans to international students. Most lending institutions require that you have a co-signer who is a U.S. citizen or permanent resident with a valid social security number in order to qualify."

Colgate: "Colgate financial aid is available on a limited basis to students who are not U.S. citizens or permanent residents. We anticipate that each year only a relatively small and highly qualified group of international students will be offered financial aid."

Do you have anything showing any substantial taxpayer funded aid for foreign students?

Brad,
Let's face it, the powers that be for the last 20 some odd yrs have been setting the stage for the NAU, this is just one more step in the plan. Do you actually think they give a shit about Az, Ga, Alabama, or what they do as a state, no they don't..BUT they do care about how it will affect the other states that are in the corridor and that's something they can't afford to have happen...If states start getting ballsy about stopping immigration (Illegal) then that puts a crimp in the plan...Think about it!!

Oh and by the way Hillbilly, glad to see ya, I miss ya!!!

Good to see you too Todd!

Well Brad,

I'd like to have an answer from you and others re the fact that as a taxpayer you and all others here continually and eagerly pay multiples of MILLIONS to educate foreign students but balk at paying for the education of domestic youth.

If you please, I would appreciate as answer from you.

You have yet to show that anyone here is EAGER to provide taxpayer aid to foreigners. You have yet to show how any estimate of how much money they are receiving.

I don't support taxpayer subsidized foreign student education.

''I don't support taxpayer subsidized foreign student education. ''

OK. That's at least being consistent. Since we do not know how is being spent (or how much has been spent in the last 40 years or so), perhaps we should stop subsidizing these people before we stop doing so for those born stateside.

perhaps we should stop subsidizing these people before we stop doing so for those born stateside.

Maybe I missed something, but I haven't noticed anyone here advocating the stoppage of financial aid to those born in the US. The Dream Act is for subsidizing those born outside of the US and living here illegally.

''I haven't noticed anyone here advocating the stoppage of financial aid to those born in the US. ''

I stand partially corrected. Evidently, either I have misheard a radio report or I heard an erroneous report made by a mistaken commentator. Those born in the States are not covered by the language in this particular act as you stated. Those born outside the States are covered so long as certain conditions are met. Those youths born in the States whose parents are here illegally and who are threatened with expulsion face a problem which is not relevant in this topic.

Governor Rick Perry of Texas signed into law that state's Dream Act in 2001 and it has not been found to encourage illegal immigration, increase crime, or increase the state's debt. Based on that state's record, there is no proof that it decreases the quality of life or places an undue burden upon the state. Perry stands by his decision and this should provide some measure of relief to those who fear the law will be counter productive to society's current problems.

it has not been found to encourage illegal immigration

Again, anything to back that up?

Based on that state's record, there is no proof that it decreases the quality of life or places an undue burden upon the state.

Since you provided no source information for you statements, I used the following:
Undocumented Immigrants in Texas: A Financial Analysis of the Impact to the State Budget and Economy December 2006

1) Texas is different than most states because it collects its revenue though a state sales tax instead of income tax. Thus it captures taxes from the large segment of illegals who work under-the-table.
2) Your statement depends on the definition of "state". The majority of the costs born by illegal immigration is by local governments and hospitals.
3) The cost for granting in-state tuition is unclear in the report. They stated the cost as $4,816 per student in universities, but the difference between in-state and out-of-state tuition is $22,000. They referenced the education system and coordinating board as the sources for the data, but didn't provide the source information. I didn't find the source data on their websites.

I do not recall Perry's enemies making much of this during their campaigns against him. On that basis it is a good assumption that the impact of the state has been minimal at best, positive at most.

Yeah, politicians would never put politics ahead of the interests of the taxpayers.

Republicans - Friends in business get cheap labor and can avoid paying taxes by paying wages under-the-table. Politician gets more contributions from corrupt businesses.

Democrats - Futures votes we can buy with taxpayer money. Politician get more money from special interests.

Taxpayers - Higher tax burden, fewer entry-level jobs, fewer educational opportunities. Taxpayer gets screwed!

And society gets victimized by mafias brought in by some of those groups who commit crimes with impunity.

Agree 100%

as a legal immigrant I feel it's a drop kick to my stomach what the hell did I pay all those legal fees for then? why did I work my butt off. I feel like I could have taken the easy way like the illegals did.
no I don't support this act this should be for legal immigrants who are obtaining legal citizenship. hence me. if I ever gotten the chance to meet this duded who signed this law into passing I would have lot of choice words to say to him.

But because you don't break the law, or brag about it, or (just for instance) throw water bottles at police to get attention, your voice is not heard. Sadly, the squeaky wheels (those who wear their illegality as a badge of honor and victimhood) get the grease.

amanda ripsam Oct 23, 2011, 5:17pm EDT
as a legal immigrant I feel it's a drop kick to my stomach what the hell did I pay all those legal fees for then? why did I work my butt off. I feel like I could have taken the easy way like the illegals did.
no I don't support this act this should be for legal immigrants who are obtaining legal citizenship. hence me. if I ever gotten the chance to meet this duded who signed this law into passing I would have lot of choice words to say to him.