by
Lee Y.
Member since:
November 3, 2008
Osama Bin Laden dead : Seeds planted, Crop harvested
May 02, 2011 10:29 AM UTC
(Updated: May 02, 2011 01:27 PM UTC)
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Obama is an 'also,' not a primary player in this... "The death of Osama bin Laden at the hands of American forces is a victory for the United States and a tremendous achievement for the military and intelligence professionals who carried out this important mission.  Their tireless work since 9/11 has made this achievement possible, and enabled us to capture or kill thousands of al Qaeda terrorists and many of their leaders. I also want to congratulate President Obama and the members of his national security team. At this moment when bin Laden has been brought to justice, we especially remember the sacrifice of the young Americans who've paid the ultimate price in defense of the nation, as well as the nearly 3000 Americans who lost their lives on 9/11. Al Qaeda remains a dangerous enemy. Though bin Laden is dead, the war goes on. We must remain vigiliant, especially now, and we must continue to support our men and women in uniform who are fighting on the front lines of this war every day. Today, the message our forces have sent is clear -- if you attack the United States, we will find you and bring you to justice." -- Dick Cheney
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I agree with the perspective into which Dick Cheney puts all the players. In their proper order, and according to their actual importance. Intelligence being named first of all. Note, without the military intelligence professionals (aka: Joint Task Force Gitmo) which many - including Obama- have for some time now subjected to calumny of the worst sort, this day would not have happened. The situation brings to mind something similar:
A farmer plants an apple tree seedling (which takes 6-10 years to come to maturity). His wife nurtures the tree for six years and their children make sure to pull up weeds and trim any errant suckers that might reduce the apple crop ... then something unfortunate happens and the farmer and his family are gone.Â
However, two years after that, the new owners (city people who are in the habit of regularly making fun of people who make their living tilling the soil), "find" that apple tree just coming into its maturity and begin to share the wonderful crop of apples with their friends and family; thus getting "credit" for the apples (never mind that if they'd had their druthers the tree wouldn't even have been planted ...).
I don't know if the former vice president meant it the way I understood it, but here's how Cheney phrased it ... "I also want to congratulate President Obama and the members of his national security team."  Obama is an 'also,' not a primary player in this (except for being in the right place at the right time). He also kept after Osama ... all the while, btw, complaining and deriding (to put it mildly)  the methods that had been used to get the intel that will allow him to take credit for what the special forces accomplished with that intel. So let's be realistic, Obama gets the credit of course because he's the one in the Oval Office at the moment. But I think if Obama been in charge at the critical time,  the particular apple of intelligence that eventually led us to Bin Laden would never even have been 'picked', because Obama never would have planted any tree or pulled any suckers from the trees at Gitmo in the first place. |
 BUUUT, then there is this, Â
 And this,  
 !  And, while the above are no doubt part of my outlook on this, there is this from a fellow Gather member, with which I also agree.
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Comments: 140
Also I have noticed that politicians have a habit of criticizing a decision made by a member of the other party even if he/she would have made the very same decision.
Dennis,
Thanks for stopping by.
Of course we have a right to expect any U.S. president would move heaven and earth to get a perp such as OBL, and Obama is in some ways proving that expectation to be correct in regard to himself. But ...
It's just that without what went before, Obama's efforts may or may not have borne fruit but would definitely have taken longer even if they did eventually bear fruit; perhaps even much longer than one term as prez or even two.
And I think perhaps Obama could have given more credit where credit is due AS WELL AS taken the credit he himself deserves for continuuing the pursuit and closing the deal.
The way he stated it, wonderful news that it was, makes it seem as if this operation just appeared full fledged out of nowhere ... so far anyway.
In fact it wasn't very long ago that he was totally opposed to anything Bush put into motion (publically) and was all for closing Gitmo and prosecuting those who conceived/ran/planned/supported it.
So if he'd been in Bush's shoes instead of Bush, would we even have had the opportunity to get the information from detainees that has resulted in the death of Bin Laden? Or would they all have been brought to the U.S., be enjoying the relative comfort of a U.S. jail, and given lawyers? I don't know but it's something to think about.
Any true leader - in business or politics - understands that the minute you take the reigns, what happens becomes your responsibility.
Obama thinks he can continue to blame those who came before him for everything. And he never gives them any credit.
That shows me that he is a very poor leader. And that could be because he's never been one before and it's doubtful that he ever even read any good books about how to become a good leader. If he had, he might have learned a few things.
There is a difference between critically assessments and blaming. People who here the administration blaming simply don't know the difference.
And the assumption that those who did not do the work are taking all the credit is not only disingenuous its also disrespectful. City folk and country folk alike both build and share the wealth of a nation.
Over all you have shown your self to be a bitter women both in this post and many others.
The position the right has taken in the past two years shows more then disrespect for Obama the man, but it goes deeper; disrespecting our core values as a nation of fairness.
Knowing how to loose with graces and dignity is as important a quality as knowing how to win with humility. A house divided against it self will fall, those who seek every opportunity to divide us are as hideous to are way of life as any other cancer.
Good points Marilyn ... which is probably why it might be very hard for Obama to praise much of anything the former prez did -- even if what he did was the foundation for the action that may bring Obama's own 'ratings' up a bit.
BTW, your apple tree analogy requires that you ignore any nurturing done by the new owners over several growing seasons. That and the other convenient straw men make me wonder why you so desperately need to dismiss the hard work of the intelligence community, the military, the national security team, and all the others that have been toiling over the last several years to rid the planet of bin Laden, al qaeda, and the al qaeda-inspired.
Interesting.
Hi micky. I agree.
But, David is right about one thing ... we should be thankful Obama didn't completely dismantle that which Bush put into motion. Like the 'new owners' in my article, thank heaven he didn't uproot the tree that eventually yielded the fruit. Annd, I'm quite sure Obama was happy to do what he came to believe was the right thing. A man and parts of his family are dead, but as John Doyle says, "It's better this way."
I absolutely did NOT do that. Either you misread or you hope others will ignore what I actually said in favor of simply reading your comments as gospel. Check out the first two paragraphs of my article again.
In fact, here they are:Not only that but I took some time to try to find the exact right tribute to the actual on the ground warriors. +shrug+
David K. May 2, 2011, 1:27pm EDT
Odd that you can hate someone enough that you need to create a straw man storyline to allow you to even acknowledge Obama's contribution to this event.
BTW, your apple tree analogy requires that you ignore any nurturing done by the new owners over several growing seasons. That and the other convenient straw men make me wonder why you so desperately need to dismiss the hard work of the intelligence community, the military, the national security team, and all the others that have been toiling over the last several years to rid the planet of bin Laden, al qaeda, and the al qaeda-inspired.
Interesting.
She speaks of apples but the seed she plants is and evil weed. Even Jesus acknowledged that those how inter the fields ate the end are as worthy as those who entered first.
From the article: "...never mind that if they'd had their druthers the tree wouldn't even have been planted ..."
Or am I simply "writing while conservative" in your book?
Harry M. May 2, 2011, 2:28pm EDT
This post is about equal with Trump nonsense about demanding Obama's school records. Hate and bigotry are all these shallow people are about David.
It's been a long time since we spoke.
You said: Even Jesus acknowledged that those how inter the fields ate the end are as worthy as those who entered first.
Not quite.
That parable (Matthew 20:1-16) was not actually about this physical world at all. Nor was it about workers, or about who is more worthy or less worthy, or about who came first or last; it was not about who deserved more credit or less credit.
It's not about what people ('the workers' in the parable) deserve, or about their worth. Which is why all the workers got paid the same.
Maybe you'll agree that if they worked for me or for you, the man who came in at 6am and worked until 6pm would most certainly get and deserve to be paid more wages than the ones who strolled in at 5pm and worked only an hour. In my mind and any employer's mind the man who gives a good day's work is more "worthy" (deserves more pay) than one who works just an hour.
But, as this parable tells us, God does not give according to the worthiness of the 'worker' ... He does not give according to what 'the worker' deserves (praise God for that!). He rewards men according to His own will and pleasure; out of His own goodness and graciousness and justice.
In other words, God gives out of the abundance of His goodness, completely apart from what we (or 'the workers') deserve.
The parable is not about 'workers' per se (they are only the vehicle by which the parable teaches a spiritual truth)... it's ultimately about salvation and about how at any moment you or anyone can accept salvation through faith in Christ by God's grace and find him/her self just as accepted and saved as were the first believers. ---- Not because any of us are any more, less, or as equally worthy as those who believed previously; in fact not because of any actual worth of our own... not because of who we are or how deserving we are; but only because of Who God is.
So, no ... according to the whole of Scripture, those who entered the field at the end were not as worthy as those who entered first because it wasn't about their worthiness to begin with. It's about God's character, not theirs.
But even if that were not so and we accept your version of it ... that still leaves Obama exactly where he deserves to be ... "also" deserving/worthy of some recognition for his part in the death of Osama. +shrug+
Darren,
In fact I acknowledged Obama's part in the death of Osama. He also had a part to play, and thank heaven he played it well. And I mean that sincerely with no sarcasm. But he did not do it alone. That's all I'm saying; and I think Obama did finally say it too (although I have not yet confirmed that for myself).
Could you give me a specific example of my bitterness? As opposed to me simply expressing my opinion that is... or is it the same with you as it seems to be with so many people these days ... Darren ( L. May 2, 2011, 5:32pm EDT
Obama was always hawkish even before his election. This post is the sentiments of a bitter person who can not find the compassion to join hands in our hour of victory.
She speaks of apples but the seed she plants is and evil weed. Even Jesus acknowledged that those how inter the fields ate the end are as worthy as those who entered first.
Am I really bitter or am I simply committing the unspeakable crime of "writing while Conservative"? Could you give me a specific example of my bitterness, as opposed to me simply expressing my opinion that is...?
I think Poliwonk had a nice article this morning saying essentially the same thing. We can offend each other, but other people (outside the family of U.S. citizens) better think twice about getting on our wrong side.
Ah, here's the link to her article, and an excerpt:We ARE special ... and our Constitution is special. Thank God. And thank you Char for saying it.
Char H. May 2, 2011, 1:48pm EDT
Thank you for all of this Lee. Americans ARE special, I don't care what anybody says. We may disagree and polarize, but on this important point, we are one. Let's hope this is the first milestone of many as we let that exceptionalism be manifest again.
Lori F. May 2, 2011, 2:39pm EDT
Why do you feel the need to spam everyone with your nonsense drivel?
Thanks Thomas. :) However ... I don't understand how I've spammed anyone. Do you feel spammed? +shrug+
If I want to find your articles I will search them out. I dont care to receive email notifications on every copy and paste job there is.
Thanks Vickey ...that is all I did. I belong to some groups and I sent out group emails. +shrug+
Thanks Thomas. I understood what you meant. Just going along with it for Lori's benefit. Besides I had to choose who to respond to because I had to go do something else ... I chose you; but thought I'd kill two birds with one stone. :)
Yes, Thomas. Lori did do that. And then she called me a liar for simply explaining the rules of the groups I belong to. Of course, I may be the one who misunderstands the rules ...
Lori F. May 2, 2011, 3:52pm EDT
Hey Genius' spam is sending out mass emails....such as Lee did in this case.
But wait, there's more.
I also sent the article to several other groups using the "who can view this" feature in the editor. Those groups are listed at the end of my article under the category of "Find Gather Groups." Just click and all the groups I sent it to will be revealed. I don't think that would notify you in your mailbox, but if it does that would be your choice, not mine.
In any case, I sent the article to allll those groups just once each, except for The Conservative Club and Group Email Unlimited -- looks like I sent the article directly to each of them as well as using their group email feature.
Still not spam as I understand it.
However a moderator is welcome to correct me and if I'm wrong I'll try to be more careful in future.
Then again if it turns out that I've done nothing wrong, I would suggest that you, Lori, either remove yourself from groups that allow members to "send group email" or understand that the group rules allow that and get over it. +shrug+
Lori F. May 2, 2011, 3:52pm EDT
Hey Genius' spam is sending out mass emails....such as Lee did in this case.
If I want to find your articles I will search them out. I dont care to receive email notifications on every copy and paste job there is.
Not everyone is interesting in your copy and paste articles.
I was expressing my opinion.
And I have removed myself from the group of which I am speaking of. All moderators should take away the group email capabilities because some people just abuse the privledge.
I know one many sends about twenty at a time. He is liberal by the by. I simply just blocked him because I dont care to read anything her writes.
By the way, this was a great post.
Terry M. May 2, 2011, 7:40pm EDT
This email was not a spam. Gather permits members to send out emails to the groups they belong to. If one does not like it, they don't have to read the article.
I know one many sends about twenty at a time. He is liberal by the by. I simply just blocked him because I dont care to read anything her writes.
By the way, this was a great post.
You gave me permission to send articles to you by becoming/being a member of groups I also belong to.
You gave me permission to send email notifications by becoming/being a member of groups that allow group email and (by virtue of the actual description of the group) allows one to "SEND OUT MASS E-MAILS TO THE GROUP AS MUCH AS YOU WANT!!!!!!!!!!"
I have not abused that privilege, and I doubt I'm gonna stop sending out a notification now and then just because you get a little wee-weed up about it.
Lori F. May 2, 2011, 6:18pm EDT
Spam is the use of electronic messaging systems (including most broadcast media, digital delivery systems) to send unsolicited bulk messages indiscriminately.
Hmm ... the first three paragraphs of my article are not really 3 ... it was all one paragraph when I grabbed it (one quote from one person); but I broke it into three paragraphs to make it easier to read (I found it on many many sites but forgot to record which one I took it from - however, I do attribute the words to the actual person who spoke them).
In any case, continuuing the count, counting all the paragraphs in my article as well as the 1 paragraph I actually copied and pasted--- that's 10 paragraphs 1 of which is a copy paste.
However, if you want to count that first section as 3 paragraphs, that's 12 all together only 3 of which is copy/paste material.
Of course that's not counting the last paragraph in which I point to another Gather member's article.
Further, I didn't take into account the videos.
But, if you want me to add the videos and the very last paragraph to the count, the total paragraphs/sections rises to 15; 10 of which are my original words and thoughts.
11 original out of 16 if you count my intro to Cheney's quote.
12 original out of 17 if you count the intro to my apple seed example as a paragraph unto itself. +shrug+.
All in all I think your insinuation (an insinuated lie) that this article is all a copy paste and/or spam is just so much blah blah.
And Gitmo would be closed....
Um-m-m-m-m... nope. If it had, Bush would've gotten bin Laden. But he didn't. Obama got Osama, or haven't you been paying attention?
Vickey,
Better late than never (I hope) ---- Thank you so much for your kind words. :)
vickey w. May 2, 2011, 3:10pm EDT
Lee.... I think this is an excellent article and I love the comparison in your story... There is alot of sense to what you have said and some of this I too, had thought about.. SOme of the more wiser ones on tv including some reporters are giving credit to Bush for placing these in place..
Imagine your short conversation with micky d. this way and you migt see how off your comment is:Fact is, apple trees don't produce good fruit right away --- same with the kind of intelligence that finally brought down Bin Laden.
The wheels of government grind exceeding slow and because it grinds slow certain information doesn't always rise to the top as fast as we would hope.
Plus, sometimes info doesn't have a context that is useful at first but takes days, weeks, even years for the right other fact(s) to become available, fleshing it out and bringing understanding to other disparate facts etc ad infinitum in regard to how "intelligence" is gathered and compiled.
So once again, without what went before by the hand of previous admins, including in large part what George Bush put into place ... no apples for Obama. +shrug+ That's just the way it is.
Chuck Larlham May 5, 2011, 11:09pm EDT
@ micky d.: The info that led to the killing of this "LADEN- "PIG" , came from info-gotten at Gitmo
Um-m-m-m-m... nope. If it had, Bush would've gotten bin Laden. But he didn't. Obama got Osama, or haven't you been paying attention?
2) The body double thing is interesting because even on Morning Joe they were questioning the DNA results being done so quickly.
3) As for spam, sorry still laughing here over that. If people don't want to be notified then they should be responsible for removing themselves from a group. That is what adults do, they take note that they are part of a group and decide to remain or leave if they don't like something.
I guess its time to play the Victim game.... Or could it be time to play feel sorry for me game? I know its not practice what you preach game...
should we post directions on how to delete? Its no harder than cruising for articles on here to try and take over, insult etc..
but think how it will be said - unemployment reduced. hooray for our side. forget the fact tht they only count those getting checks or worse they like to spout how fewer people are signing up. its like telling a person bleeding to death that there si good news cause less blood is now leaving the body - forget the fact that there is almost no blood (jobs) left (to be laid off from).
i see above a mention of obama talking the 'rap' for the economy - when did that start - i never hear anything but him talking how it was all inherited.
Remember the Hunt Brothers back in the '70s? They sent silver to $50 before somebody blew the whistle.
Chuck, keep in mind that it was Bill Clinton (D), who signed the NAFTA, which sent American jobs out of the country. That is part of this president's inheiritance.
I think we need to stop blaming, which accomplishes nothing, and start working on plans to get people back to work. The infighting between parties only makes the problems worse.
no obama did not create the mess. but he certainly has accelerated it.
by continuing on an agenda of keeping businesses afraid to hire with his energy stance and abhorrant health insurance shit, of course jobs are leaving.
but that is a reaction, not a cause.
the economy is recovering? ok - tell walternate i said hey!
guess i would rather be a dimwit as you called all of us, than a witless punk.
keep crying tho and spewing your communist bullshit - or move to cuba where you can have what you want.
you have no facts to refute, no references to support your stance,so you resort to a personal attack? for the second time?
incredible!
i at least started by discussing the facts and opinions as presented. i didnt shit in your mess kiit bunky - so either debate or take a flyin leap.
Good article and refreshing perspective, thank you for it!
Hmm... very good question lol
It wasn't Bush's intelligence community with its waterboarding and other, more severe tortures that made this day possible.
You who so hate President Obama are correct in stating that he wouldn't have allowed those measures in the first place, and he was correct to vilify his predecessor for doing so. Still, it wasn't that, because all that stopped two years ago, and bin Laden had been in that house for five years. Nope, something else changed, it changed recently, and it had little enough to do with your heroes' actions. My assumption would be the "change' was money "changing" hands... lots of it.
Gee, you know, seems like the idea of "justice" sure has changed a good bit; at least in my lifetime.
So now that we're considering summary execution of an unarmed man, without trial (let alone formal charges) and hastily dumping their corpse in the ocean to be an example of "justice," then I guess we can finally abandon all pretense of regard for Rule of Law from the federal welfare/warfare state?
As for assassination vs. justice... might just agree with you there. Justice implies some forms were followed and some standards upheld. It implies (it used to, at least, until Bush redefined it) a public search for fact and truth. Then again, there was little unknown here. We all knew, from his own and others mouths, the facts and truths of Osama bin Laden.
The man needed killin'! He got killed. Wasn't justice. Was the right thing to do.
There's a couple things I can't stand. One is the fact that even after the whole Hollywood-style propaganda production that was the Jessica Lynch "rescue," and the deceitful manipulation of Pat Tillman's death, that so many American's still continue to uncritically swallow the garbage that spews forth out of the mouths of the U.S. political class and it's kept PR brigade aka the American "mainstream news media." I don't know what sickens me more; the fact that they so obviously think we're all idiots, or the fact that they are so obviously justified in that belief.
Another thing I can't stand is the popular uncritical, rigid adherence to the foisted political paradigm in this country. You know; the idea that since I'm not a fan of the Democrat-hat wearing half of the welfare/warfare state duopoly, then it must necessarily follow that I am a fan of the Republican-hat wearing half. I'm not a cheerleader for Obama's tyranny, plunder and murder, so than I must have been cheerleader for Bush's tyranny, plunder and murder.
Justice implies some forms were followed and some standards upheld.
Yeah; some "forms" like due process, formal charges, presentation of evidence and counter-evidence and objective consideration of both. Some "standards" like we don't execute people just because the state informally accuses them of a crime.
Then again, there was little unknown here. We all knew, from his own and others mouths, the facts and truths of Osama bin Laden.
Can you point me to where I can see first-hand evidence of OBL admitting responsibility for 9/11? I know it was widely reported in the days following 9/11, and especially in the days immediately preceding the assault on the Taliban, that OBL denied responsibility for it. I know I can point you to obvious, proven fake videos purporting to be OBL admissions of guilt, widely distributed throughout the MSM as such for mass consumption (but of course there was no widespread attention drawn to the fact they were fakes after they were determined to be such) -- kinda makes thinking people like myself wonder, who has the motive and the ability to make such a tape and distribute it throughout the media, and why?
The FBI has long admitted there was no real evidence linking Osama to 9/11, and that's the reason why the 9/11 attacks were not mentioned on his official "wanted" poster, and presumably why he was never formally charged for them.
If you want to say that other crimes which he did admit responsibility for were sufficient to warrant summary execution, then whatever. If that's your idea of the "right thing to do," then I guess it's your good fortune that you live in a world where many governments seem to agree with you.
Let's just hope that your government doesn't one day decide to informally implicate you in a crime...
Glad to see you (late though it is).
Thanks for your input. :)
Charles T. May 28, 2011, 11:25am EDT
well said, this particular action wouldn't have happened without foundations laid long before the President took over in DC.