Are People Functionally Illiterate On Religion?

"Are People Functionally Illiterate On Religion?"

Generally, yes.

I think so too Shanny.

You've made the same mistake of which you're accusing others.

Which is?

Lori,
I usually don't comment on Religion Posts but I am doing so on this one and Hope you will see what is in my heart even if my words do not convey them the way I would like.

I think there are many religions who judge other religions on "misinformation" I think they hear something and take it for "truth" just because it was said by someone they "trusted". In many cases this "trusted" person is their minister or preacher.

I totally agree with your comment on ask coke CEO about Coke and Pepsi about Pepsi. I have always said that.

As a member of the Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter Day Saints (Mormon), other churches are constantly saying we are a "cult". If the definition of "cult" was applied to "religion" then all religions would be cults. However much of the information they are judging "Mormon's" on is not accurate. Yet it does not keep others from judging blindly.

I believe that we each have the privilege of worshiping what, where and how we like. That is a privilege given to everyone, no matter the religion or even no religion.

I try not to judge others however sometimes I find that I do this in spite of myself.

Discrimination is found in many forms and religion or the lack thereof is just one of these forms.

I wish we could all just agree that we as individuals are who we are and love each other for the good in each of us.

Can you imagine what a sad world this would be if we were all alike!

I have taken a lot of criticism about my chosen religion. My mom used to call me every Wednesday night (the night she went to preaching at church) crying. I just listened and when she finished we hung up. I grew to expect these little calls. It took everything in me to keep from saying "Mom is this what God wants you to do or what your preacher wants you to do?" but I didn't. She said she prayed every-night that the devil would let go of me.

For me personally, I think the religion I chose for myself has made me a much happier and a better person. Isn't that what we all want in life?

Wow I typed a lot. I did not mean to hijack your post. I just wanted to share my opinion. My comment was not intended to judge anyone else for their choices nor to offend anyone for their choices.

Thanks for letting me have my say on your post. :)

OH one more thing. LOL If you are still listening to my rambling on and on. . . I do respect the opinions of others. I am glad we have our agency and can choose for ourselves.

Keeping the commandment as given to me by the living Phropets and the Prophets of old is my choice. I am not a puppet and I do not obey blindly. I obey because I have found that it makes me a happier person. I want to be happy. Rules or commandments give me boundries not fences. I make many mistakes but I hope I learn from each one. That is my goal in life "To be beter today, that I was yesterday."

Wow!! Look at all those mis-spelled words! Sorry. :)

Connie you are one of the few people I feel that will actually explain your religion to me without judging me for having no religion.

I agree with you that each person is entitled to practice whatever and however they decide.

My problem is that I see a number of people who want to judge a religion based off of what they feel the other believes or how they practice.

So if we are to believe that Muslims obey the Koran to the letter than should we also assume that christians obey the bible literally.

Do LDS consider themselves Christians? I have always wondered that.

Lori,
Yes we are Christians. A Christian is someone who believes in Christ. . . right? We (I) do believe in Christ. We (I) believe that he came to earth as foretold in the Old Testament & The Book Of Mormon. We believe he lived as told in the New Testament so we could have the opportunity to be forgiven of our sins.

We (I) end all our prayer "in Jesus Christ name". So yes we are Christians. We do use the King James Version of both the Old Testament and The King James version of the New Testament.

No we don't have more than one wife or husband. LOL That was practiced at one time by Mormons as well as in the Old Testament but we do not practice it today. Anyone who is a member of the Church Of JESUS CHRIST of Latter Day Saints who practiced polygamy today is ex-communicated.

"Connie you are one of the few people I feel that will actually explain your religion to me without judging me for having no religion."

I agree. I think that is a big reason why so many people are functionally illiterate when it comes to religion: fear of judgement and fear of attempted conversion.

Holly,
I do agree with you. Religion has a tendency to make tempers flare! :)

Misunderstandings are so easily passed on from one person to another as truths.

Ok that makes sense:)

From what I understand didnt the Morman church end up with 2 parts...one that kind of jiggled things around to suit their needs and the other part who stayed true to their religion.

I used to work with a guy who claimed he could tell whether someone was a christian or not.

Lori,
Yes, after the Prophet Joseph Smith died, the church or I should say the people within the church had a "falling out". There were members who remained faithful to the gospel as it was and then there were others who split from the church and started their own church. I belong to the "true" or "original" gospel.

Those who left the church started a church called The Re-organized church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints" (RLDS). They have since changed the name again.

Connie years ago I read one of those true life crime books...dont remember the name of it but it was about a Mormon in Salt Lake who scammed the church with phoney documents that were supposed to be authentic letters written by and to Joseph Smith. It was an excellent book the thing that really impressed me was how it seemed that everyone they interviewed for the book truly did live their life based on their faith.

I remember growing up a Catholic and sitting in church hearing about the evils of drinking then going home and the babysitter being there so my parents could go to the bar and get drunk.

Lori,
I think that is a wonderful example. Just in my area alone there are members of the church who have committed adultery among other "sins" or "mistakes". We each make our own decisions. We are each responsible for those decisions. I will not be judged on the decisions you make and you will not be judged on the decisions I make.

That is the beauty of being able to make our own decisions. When we make wrong or poor choices, we can choose how we react to them as well. For example, we can either choose to learn from our mistakes, we can pretend that we did not make a mistake or we can run from our choices. It is entirely up to us as individuals.

I hate it that 911 ever occurred. That day will forever be etched in my mind. I know where I was and what I was doing as the incident changed our lives forever. I don't claim to know anything about the Muslim belief but I do know that there are good people in all religions/beliefs.

One of my Doctors is Muslim and I trust him completely!

"Most religions state that they are the one and only "true religion" so that teaching is unlikely to drive you to studying up on the others."

Actually, that's pretty much confined to the religions that descended from Judaism. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam claim to be the "true" religion. Most other religions, including Buddhism and the various flavors of Hinduism don't do that. People around the Mediterranean thought the Christians and Jews were strange because they didn't give any credit to other religions' gods. The Roman religion incorporated the religion they started with, the Etruscan religion, and the Greek religion.

My wife once worked with a woman who grew up in Samoa. The woman said that when the missionaries came her great grandparents were happy to adopt Christianity. What they did was put statues of Jesus, Mary, and various saints up with the statues of the other gods. They figured that the Christian gods had been good to the missionaries and it might be a good thing to pray to them too.

Yes Connie. You type a lot. So much that I now have nothing to add :-D)

Are People Functionally Illiterate On Religion? I would have to say yes! And not only yes there are far too many folks who view ignorance as pure bliss. In reality ignorance is one of the worse international diseases in the world today.

Anyone can take anything out of context. We do so with the News and the newspapers on a daily basis, interviews are edited as well as the Koran and the Bible.

To properly understand the bible deeply, one should even delve deep into the historical context of the time in which it was written. That is if one agrees with the initial concepts of the premise of the bible from the outset. I would say the same of the Koran if it is the religion that one is interested in. As Brian T said education is power.
And yes I think that unless a person has studied other religions they cannot intelligently give an educated opinion. Ignorance is bliss to some.

Danielle,
I do not trust the media. They try to manipulate us like we were kids.

I love how the bible speaks to me personally when I combine reading the scriptures with prayer. It is a wonderful feeling and I love that feeling!

Danielle,
I love the fact that you mention understanding the historical context at the time of the bible. That is a big key to understanding the customs and stories written in the bible.

Thank you Connie I feel the same way on both accounts, the media and the bible. I think it's all about a personal relationship with God. Religion gets in the way of that for some.

Danielle,
I personally see a difference in "Religious" and "Spiritual". To clarify:

Religion is something you claim to have

Spiritual is something you feel and act upon in a given way.

Does that make sense?
I know people who claim to be "religious" but I don't see the kindness and compassion in their life so to speak. When someone is "Spiritual", I think their actions speak louder than their words.

definitely...I am spiritual as you described above. It is all new to me but I wouldn't trade it for the world. It is a joy like no other, one can't help but give love away. It is a must, a compulsion if you will.
I'd much rather be spiritual any day and let others have religion.

I really like the tone of this post. So far it is not "mean". I appreciate that.

Me too.

There are people who want to believe that members of a particular religion, race, etc. all share one big brain and are all the same, instead of judging each individual by their individual words and actions. I seriously doubt that anyone who judges a Muslim by the actions of radical extremists has ever known a Muslim personally.

anyone who judges a Muslim by the actions of radical extremists has ever known a Muslim personally. "

Exactly!

Very true, Holly. And it applies to what people say about "Christians" (or what "a Christian" will or will not do) as well.

conspiracy theorists might argue with me but I do not believe 911 was an inside job done by the Bush Adm. Yes he wasnt a good president IMHO but he wasnt evil. Had he perpitrated 911 that would have made him evil.

Now on with my point.

I think one of the reasons 911 happened was because a group of fanatical Muslims thought they knew what Christians stand for based on their interpretation which is based on their bias.

Now we have the unreasonable fear of the Muslims in this country based on the Christians interpretation of what Muslims are based on their bias.

When in reality no one knows what or who you are but yourself.

You stated that very nicely. I have to agree with your perception on the 911. Fear is a very controlling feeling. I find that when I fear something or someone it affects how I react to it or them.

Fear is very difficult to overcome and we each react to it on different levels or degrees of actions.

I think The media feeds on our fears and they just add to that fear. Thus keeping the nation in chaos. I do not trust the media to give us facts.

Connie exactly. We feed into the fear many of our leaders and the media puts out.

I readily admit that I have not known very many people who practice the Muslim religion IRL but the ones I did didnt seem any different than you or I.

I remember going to my aunts house when I was 7 or 8 and she was having some kind of party and one of her friends was bringing her new boyfriend who happened to be a Native American and my aunt just ranting about it. How this guy would drink all the booze and then steal her silverware. She had never met the guy but based on her personal prejudices she felt all Natives got drunk and stole. And I remember being afraid of meething this person that somehow he was going to be some kind of monster based on hearing my aunt and Dad talk.

Back during 911 I had a friend who was devout Muslim, when the attack took place this guy actually considered those that carried it out as non-believers and infidels in that they took innocent lives and desecrated the name of Islam.

Then there was the young Muslim woman that wore a head scarf at work that I supervised there were some folks around the company that wanted me to "talk to her" about it. I pretty much told them to go to hell in such a nice way that they would look forward to the trip. I also know Title VII law so I'm not stupid enough to get into a lawsuit based on religious discrimination.

Brian I would imagine your Muslim friend felt the same way about the 911 hijackers that my husband who is a devout Catholic does about the Westboro baptist church people.

Like Connie, I usually do not comment on religious posts. However, all I want to say is that I firmly believe that whatever religion (or lack thereof) is the true religion...for you. Not everyone thinks alike, nor eats alike, nor dresses alike, why should we all believe alike?

I am with you Nancy. How boring would life be if we were all alike?

Boring!!

You're so silly, Lori. You know that the stuff you cited above is from the OLD testament and no one follows that stuff anymore. (Except the part about gays. They aren't killed, per se. Their ideals and beliefs are though--at least tried to be killed.)

But then if we're here to pick and choose what we want to follow in the Bible, then I guess my super disrespectful (at times) son should be stoned to death? Or how exactly are they put to death?

Robi isnt it funny how that works.

You're so silly, Lori.

Robin, Lori is far from silly. tame

"My comment was not intended to judge anyone else for their choices nor to offend anyone for their choices." Then why did the Mormon church pour so much money into California to approve Prop 8 ?

I agree completely that the same standard must be used when reading the Koran and the Bible in terms of interpreting the literal vs. non-literal nature of passages, and that there are plenty of apparently violent passages in the Bible to match those in the Koran. I think that's a valid point to make. (There are other issues to consider, such as the Bible containing a lot of historical narrative, which is not true for the Koran, but those are details.)

On the other hand, I wasn't aware that there were many "religious scholars" on Gather, or that a poll has been taken among them revealing that the majority perceives Islam as evil, so I'm guessing you meant the former sarcastically and latter impressionistically. Instead, I think there are just people here giving their opinion on these matters. I don't think that all opinions are equal, of course--certainly, some people can be better informed on a particular issue than others, and their degree of bias may differ, too. But I think everyone has the same right to express an opinion. In this case, I don't see how "Christians" as a group can be declared illegitimate sources of opinion on Islam (and vice versa, I suppose) while we're expected to treat your opinion as legitimate... You're neither Muslim nor Christian, I believe. :) So how about giving everyone a chance and judge what they're saying by its content instead of pre-judging based on their religious affiliation?

Aniko the Constitutional Scholars for the most part are the same people who are the Biblical Scholars.

You are correct I am neither. I do seem to be harsher on Christians than any other group only because I see more Christians bashing others for not being Christian than anything else.

I dont necessarily see Christians as an illegitimate source of information my point is this.

How can Christians say that Muslims are hate filled being intent on destroying the world and base that upon the Koran when the bible is filled with countless stories of aggressive warmongering, genocide, pillaging, plundering, wanton destruction, sexual slavery, rape, misogyny, child abuse, homophobia, unfair laws, cruel and unusual punishment, the punishment of innocents, and brutal chattel slavery.

The same can be said in reverse to the Muslims.

That's a valid point, as I said, and I of course agree with your criticism of the view of Muslims as evil, hate-filled, intent on world domination, etc. It's the same issue I have with judging people based on group membership and the behavior of some other members of such groups that made me make mine.

Both the bible and the Quran/Koran were written by man in a time when social justice was out of control and conformity was required to save humans from themselves. My Jewish friends and Muslim friends alike acknowledge that this is true, creating a set of rules is the foundation of a society and what better way to succeed that to evoke the word of a god. All debate aside for which book is more, or less violent--remember the crusades.
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Religious leaders speak out against International Burn a Quran Day
August 23rd, 2010
01:55 PM ET


Religious leaders speak out against International Burn a Quran Day

"Response so far to an event billed as a Gathering for Peace, Understanding and Hope has been "overwhelmingly positive," a minister in Gainesville, Florida, told CNN on Monday. The event is planned in response to a local church's International Burn a Quran Day.

As part of the Gainesville Interfaith Forum - made up of Christians, Muslims, Jews and Hindus - Trinity United Methodist Church will host the event September 10, the night before the planned burning of the Quran.

The nondenominational Dove World Outreach Center said it will host the Quran-burning event on the ninth anniversary of the September 11, 2001, attacks. The group said it will remember 9/11 victims and take a stand against Islam. With promotions on its website and Facebook page, it invites Christians to burn the Muslim holy book at the church from 6 p.m. to 9 p.m."

More>>>>>

Is there a "Burn the Bible day" some where in the Islamic countries....NO!!!!!

Some may say that Islams hate America, want us dead, they chant it they spit on Americans and their commercialism--true that is the behavior yet, the chant we hurl at someone who cuts us off in the parking lot or the express way, Bank line, or supermarket is hurled the nastiest of insults, not a hand raised. Kill your mother, f+++ your mother, on and on, I guess we care not about our fathers enough to insult them. Crazy world and America and Islam are not enemies--we are fighting extremists who happen to worship in the Islamic faith. Guaranteed you will not find them in Mecca --peace is what Mecca is about.

You got it.

My husband and I read that article about burning the Koran and think it's ludicrous. What does it prove? Purely a waste of time and they call themselves Christians? I am a Christian and think that Jesus wants us to spread love not hate. Love one another was one of His greatest commandments no matter what.

Yes Lori, the Christian religion is even more harsh than Islam, but the difference is few Christians have any conception of what the Bible actually dictates. They, for the most part, are going entirely on the "faith" they were indoctrinated into as children too young to think for themselves. Christians often blow off the passages cited above with the notion that those are Old Testament rules that changed with the "coming of Jesus." Uh.... no. According to Matthew 13, not a "jot" of the old law shall be changed until all "comes to pass."

I don't know any Christians who observe the Sabbath, yet one of the 10 Commandments is to do no work on the Sabbath, and the Bible describes those who violate that to be put to death. Fortunately, I believe the Bible to have been written by some superstitious men who thought, or maybe were, inspired, but their inspiration was overwhelmed by their knowledge of previous religions and superstitions.

Both religions are filled with people who can't see reason because of their indoctrination. One religion, Christianity is filled with people who know almost nothing about their religion, and the other, Islam, is filled with people who know too much about it.

Ironic that religion is mandkind's worse curse.

Most of those of us who are Christians were raised to believe that Christ brought the "NEW WORD" of love. That concept diminished the teachings of "sinners in the hands of an angry God".

Jesus taught, "vengence belongs to God". So, we do not follow the various specific "get em" doctrine of the Old Testament, that is taught as a historical basis for Jesus as a Jew.

His words of advice for dealing with those who refused to hear the Word were to "dust their sand" from our feet...

I think that life for those in Old Testament was the life they needed at the time. I mean. They had to learn to follow "see able" laws and commandments. They were not ready for the "Spiritual" or "feeling" part of the law yet.

Then in the New Testament, the people were more prepared for the "Spiritual" or higher law.

Today we are ready for even a higher law.

To clarify my thoughts:
A baby must learn to walk before he/she learns to run.

Each law is/was given to us in the order that we are prepared to accept it. I know this to be true in my personal life as well. I like to think of it as climbing a mountain. I started at the bottom and each time I grew "Spiritually" I took a step up the mountain.

Sometimes I go backward depending on how I dealt with my personal trials that day. We each are climbing the mountain at our own pace. As we get higher up the mountain, we are given harder terrain (higher laws). Does that make sense?

That is the way I look at the laws and commandments in the Testaments.

The two comments above illustrate exactly what I meant.

The Bible is supposed to be the literal "word of God" No? And therefore infallible, no? So how is it that the New Testament, in Matthew (which I believe was written about 40 years after the death of Jesus) it is written that the old law is valid until all comes to pass?

Of course there is no answer for this, unless you adopt the position that the Bible isn't really the literal "word of God."

Correct?

When I was in high school, many moons ago, LOL I did a term paper on how the bible was written. I learned so much from doing that paper. I have learned much since then. I hope to continue to learn. I have a lot to learn about the scriptures.

I believe you are referring to Matthew chapter 5 verse 17 ¶ Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

I believe those verses to mean this:
Jesus came to earth as man to fulfil the law of the Prophets. That law being fulfilled he gives us a higher or New law.

I am sure everyone and every religion in general reads the scriptures to mean different things.

The wonderful thing about the four Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) is that each of them tell the story of Jesus life on earth from their point of view.

Robert, I am arguing with you. I am just saying I read the verse to have a different meaning than you read it to have.

Robert, Christians vary widely in their knowledge of the Bible, as one would expect of such a large group of people. Some only know what was taught in Sunday school, some have read bits and pieces, some have read the whole thing several times and keep reading it, and some went to school to learn the original languages it was written in and have dedicated their life to biblical studies. The picture you paint in your first paragraph seems distorted.

"I don't know any Christians who observe the Sabbath"

This is besides the main point here, since most Christians obviously don't, but just for the record, that's exactly what Seventh-Day Adventists do. (I know quite a few.)

Robert: "not a 'jot' of the old law shall be changed until all 'comes to pass.'"

I think Connie has done a good job of explaining this, except that, with respect, I don't think it can be read the way that you do. In Matthew 5 Jesus spends time explaining his own fulfillment of OT law and prophecy. A long list of prophecies were made about the coming Messiah in the OT, and Jesus eventually fulfilled all of them. When he said "it is finished" on the cross, all had come to pass, and the New Covenant had replaced the Old Covenant. As Nora pointed out, there are numerous places in the NT where Jesus amplifies and recasts OT law even during His ministry. In Matthew 5, in fact, within a few verses of the "jot and tittle" verse, Jesus has His way with some OT language. What is interesting is that Jesus does not exactly dismiss the old law; he increases the demands on us for our right living. For example, in Mt. 5:31-32 He says, "It has been said, 'Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.' But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery." (NIV) Not a jot or tittle there, but a new understanding of morality.

Jesus did not satisfy the Pharisees that he properly observed the Sabbath. But Jesus taught that 'The Sabbath was made for man and not man for the sabbath' (Mark 2:27), and God had made provisions for both finding food and acts of mercy, as well as establishing the time of rest for humankind. Jesus performed numerous healings on the Sabbath, and challenged restrictive Judaic law on its application.

Robert: "The Bible is supposed to be the literal 'word of God...' No? And therefore infallible, no? So how is it that the New Testament, in Matthew (which I believe was written about 40 years after the death of Jesus) it is written that the old law is valid until all comes to pass?"

I addressed some of that above, but it is worth noting that the gospel writers were producing a history of the life and teachings of Jesus, and certainly this thread of fulfillment of the law and the prophets is an essential aspect of the history. Historical biblical scholarship is trending toward earlier dates for the writing of the gospels--Mark, the earliest written, may have been completed between 45 and 70 CE (with the crucifixion having occurred in 30 CE), so that 40 years later may be a "late date" for the writing. Most modern biblical scholarship countenances the bringing forth of Bible stories through a discipline of oral histories or "performances" which probably began to be offered shortly after Jesus' earthly life. For people in the hinterlands, where scrolls and reading skills were in short supply, oral histories were held to high standards.

Robert: "Both religions are filled with people who can't see reason because of their indoctrination."

I don't see any support for that claim, Robert. I can't single you out for some special kind of criticism, because I see it from others here, and it has been offered historically by some "pretty big names" in the past. It's slander, and since there is no support, there is also no dialog on the point. That leaves me free to ask you whether your affection for your loved ones leaves you incapacitated to make rational decisions about any and every feature of your life? Just where they're concerned, perhaps? I'd be surprised if you'd sign on to even that.

Anyway, the tossing about of the "literal word" meme seems to come from those with a dismissive tone about the Bible, and given the problems just reviewed doesn't seem to merit further consideration at this point. I'd be happy to respond to any serious thoughts on these topics. Thanks for commenting here.

A great post Lori, I posted a similar article on SideTick.

Lori,
I want to thank you for giving me the desire to learn more about the Quran/Koran. I know very little about it and the Muslim people. That is my goal for the week, to learn all I can about the people and their belief.

That is an amazing contribution here--one which I would equate with making lemonade from a bunch of bitter lemons. Thanks, Connie.

Yes, people are functionally illiterate when it comes to religion. If more of them did an all out study of different religions, there would be more non-believers and more happy people on the planet.

I do hate double standards! Excellent post, Lori!!! tame

I'm with you Lori - I think yes, they're functionally illiterate.

According to one of the above writers I gather: Religion came about to control society from it's basic evil ways. I tend to agree. But now religion seems to only fuel the flames. I think EM JAY has the right idea.

Great piece and great discussion, Lori. I have always thought World Religion should be taught at the High School level, as opposed to an elective at the college level. It is just an introduction to the complexities but it would go a long way toward understanding.

>> According to most of the religious scholars on Gather
>> Muslims are evil.

Are there religious scholars or are you just being sarcastic?
I think any scholar of any kind that said there were people
who by belonging to a religion, or group were evil any intelligent
person could safely ignore them as any kind of scholar.

Why is it that these kind of off-center statements get so much
activity on Gather. It's not religious scholars that say Muslims
are evil. Lots of people see from the evidence that Islam and
the many Islamic states that run their countries for the benefit
of Muslims, and have all kinds of human rights problems are "evil".

But you feel free to, rather than explore and define the problem,
in hopes to maybe gain "something" personally ... attention,
validation, Gather points, further some political agenda ... I don't
know, whatever, to spin this out of reality into it being a
persecuting all Muslims.

Thus you implicitly take the opinion that all Muslims are "good".
You, and articles like this, say more about what you do not even
talk about than you do about the subject your ostensively
say you are discussing.

Now ... then another way this gets mixed up is that by
criticizing on thing, you open the door to hypocrisy by not
applying that criticism fairly and equally to all things.

You bought up Islam and Christianity, so do you think they
both act equally in the world. I don't really care that much
about what your opinion is .... you are an intelligent person,
but you write an article that with the title and the opening
paragraph cannot hope to be intelligent, lead anywhere, solve
anything, or do much of anything besides get people arguing.
Perhaps that is what Gather is for, so maybe it's just me.

You know ... in businesss more and more people who are
successful make money finding little efficiencies to exploit.
If you find something that makes you half a penny and do
it a billion times you can create something.

Somehow that is not happening in media, journalism,
politics, philosophy or thought, and until it does I think
we are not going to see any leveraging of the American
public in any kind of democracy, republic or change.

Most people are functionally illiterate about almost everything except their daily job and hobbies.