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by Shira C.
Member since:
July 15, 2009

Losing Your Religion: The threefold cord of science, philosophy and religion

July 30, 2010 01:51 PM UTC (Updated: August 27, 2010 12:30 PM UTC)
views: 0 | 17 people recommend this | comments: 454

This post got started in a meaningful way in 2005. That's when Sam Harris's book The End of Faith challenged me to re-consider questions that I hadn't worried about for nearly twenty years -- since Darwin, speaking through the witty little sermons of Stephen Jay Gould, had taught me a new way of thinking about the world.

What I learned from Harris was that, although it had been a great relief in my thirties to lay aside my religious preoccupations, I could no longer afford the luxury of ignoring religion and its adherents. That kind of ignorance was a sort of intellectual cowardice. And worse, religious ignorance was dangerous to everyone.

So in the past five years I've read (of course!) a hundred or more books, moving from religion to philosophy to brain science and evolutionary theory (some of those books "belonged" to more than one discipline). I've taken a few courses, and talked to lots of people with different viewpoints -- all in the service of making sense of religion. And, oh yeah. The oddest result of reading Harris's book was, I ended up a Buddhist.

A second point of origin, in creative tension with the first, is a comment by Ron on an earlier discussion. According to Ron and others, Buddhism isn't really a religion, but a philosophy. That led me to ask myself: What the heck is philosophy? (That is, what does it DO that lets it outcompete other kinds of thought we might engage in?)

Sometimes considering two questions is a lot more productive than considering only one of them! I'd like to offer some answers to these questions (and to a related question, what is science?) and let you guys kick holes in my ideas. Cause that's the way I roll, lol.

The way I see it, science, philosophy and religion are adaptations to a common set of problems. These problems can be stated this way: the brain is an amazing, powerful and well-adapted thinking machine. But it's not a unitary thinking machine. We are a lot like the astronaut who, while waiting for launch, muses uneasily that he is about to trust his life to a machine made of thousands of parts, each supplied by the lowest bidder. In evolutionary terms, that's what our brain is -- a thinking machine made of many sub-machines, each the cheapest way available to solve a survival problem.

This reality is masked by the way consciousness works, of course. For the most part, we experience our thinking as unified. We experience our "self" as unified... and in control.

Not long after finishing The End of Faith, I read Pascal Boyer's book Religion Explained. Boyer, as it happens, explains at least as much about the brain as about religion, and I particularly like his metaphor for brain function. The brain, he writes, is like an English country manor, in which activity is divided into "upstairs" and "downstairs" realms. Upstairs is the view from inside our ego tunnel, but outside the tunnel is where most of the brain's action takes place. Downstairs is the domain of specialists (the neural equivalent, Boyer writes, of "house steward, housekeeper, groom of the chambers, butler, valet, lady's maid, chef, footman, underbutler, young ladies' maid, housemaid, stillroom maid, scullery maid, kitchen maid, laundry maid, dairymaid, coachman, groom, postilion, candleman, oddman, steward's room man and servants' hall boy, to name but a few.") With that kind of activity going on below conscious awareness, it begins to look less as if our consciousness is running the show... particularly because (unlike the lord of the manor) we cannot fire our neural servants!

(Well... we could opt for a lobotomy I suppose... lol.)

Inevitably, there's a certain amount of conflict "belowstairs", and much of it is handled there, by still more specialists that keep disagreements from intruding on life "abovestairs". But sometimes, conflicts get kicked upstairs, and we become aware of them. These cognizable conflicts, I believe, are the impetus for many kinds of memetic adaptations -- among them, the threefold cord of science, philosophy and religion.

Let's start with science. Science exists to resolve mental and social conflicts that arise from our observation of the world around us. What sort of conflicts? Well, our observation are demonstrably subject to errors of perception, as demonstrated by the existence of optical illusions, auditory illusions, and quite possibly such robust sensory effects as out-of-body experiences. Our observations are also subject to errors having to do with attention: we may fail to observe what does not come to our attention, and we may inadvertently inject attentional objects into observations. Memory also creates problems. The other day I heard a memory scientist explain that whenever we access a memory, we destroy it. It must be recreated each time we think of it, which means that, the more important a memory is to us, the more likely that it becomes subject to copying error.

Observing the world around us is, of course, vital for our survival. For that reason, every human society has developed science, which is the filtering of observation through many individuals, thus reducing idiosyncratic errors. It used to be commonplace to think of societies without complex technology as being "pre-scientific", but that's not the case. When scientists visit isolated tribes they generally find that these people have very precise and accurate knowledge of the local plants, animals, weather and other salient aspects of the world around them. In some ways, modern people may have less understanding of the natural world, since technology buffers us from some of its threats. (We may, however, have a more well-developed awareness of social science, since we must cope with more people, and more psychological diversity, than people living in small, isolated groups.)

On to philosophy. If science sets out to systematize observation, philosophy sets out to systematize the way we use reason. It has been known since antiquity that reason often gives rise to paradox -- that is, (in the words of the immortal wikipedians): true statement or group of statements that leads to a contradiction or a situation which defies intuition". Until recently, philosophy seems not to have seriously entertained the notion that paradoxes arise, not because of improper reasoning, but because human reason is itself -- as the product of many generations of evolutionary compromise -- imperfect.

(As it happens, the first book of philosophy I read on purpose, without having it assigned, was Hofstadter's Gödel, Escher, Bach. The second was The Mind's I, which set out to consider the nature of human consciousness and was my first exposure to Daniel Dennett, though I didn't realize it until the frenzy of reading Sam Harris inspired made me reacquainted with Dennett.) These books both pioneered the idea that human reason, as a product of evolution, might not be up to the task of systematizing all our understanding in a perfectly coherent way.

Finally, then, let me attempt to redefine religion. If science exists to correct errors in observation, and philosophy to correct errors of reasoning, religion serves to reduce emotional pains that arise when different specialist routines "downstairs" in our brains come into conflict. While the primary tool of science is observation and of philosophy is reason (and words), the primary tool of religion is narrative. Religion puts our painful emotional conflicts into a new context, one in which they can be resolved, or at least reduced.

Let me illustrate by giving some examples of typical religious issues.

Temptation: Take a look at the last few (depending how you count) of the Ten Commandments. Don't kill or commit adultery. Don't steal. In fact -- and here is the crux --do NOT even covet your neighbor's ass. (Or in modern terms, his zero-turn-radius mower with rollover protection and blades that can chip concrete blocks.)

Although I've chosen a Biblical illustration, the problem of how to make temptation less agonizing, particularly when no one is watching, really is a universal concern in religions. The conflict is between our desire to take what we want and our prosocial urge to abide by group norms.

And there is a near-universal solution. Almost all religions reduce the emotional conflict by insisting that your transgression WILL be noticed, because there is / are spirit(s) watching. Maybe it's the Spirit of God (as in the Abrahamic religions). Or maybe it's nosy ancestors. Or orishas, demons, witches, old ones, or heck, a jolly old elf. Just knowing that you can't get away with giving in to temptation reduces the emotional conflict, though it doesn't guarantee that everyone will make the "right" choice! (If religion makes that conflict easier to live with, and keeps people from being frozen between conflicting emotions, that's a sufficient reason for it to exist. The fact that individuals choose differently in the same situation is probably a good thing in survival terms.)

Injustice: What happens if you give in to temptation, and you're not caught, and those nosy ancestors also don't choose to get involved. At least not yet. Or you suspect your neighbor has been up to no good? Or worse, you KNOW that someone -- perhaps someone powerful -- is getting away with murder, or rapine, or confiscatory taxation? Here our strong programming to punish cheaters is coming into painful conflict with our desire for self-preservation.

Again, there is a pretty common religious narrative to deal with this problem. Sure, religion assures us. You MIGHT get away with something now, but justice is certain. Again, the form that justice takes may vary. The Abrahamic faiths have mostly settled on reward and punishment after death, while the dharma religions see justice visited through the impartial workings of karma.

Calamity: We, alone among earth creatures (as far as we know), have the ability to imagine what the future will be like. In fact, we pretty much cannot avoid imagining the future. And that becomes a problem when the future doesn't work out as we planned. The greater the variance between our expectations and reality, the more painful it is to abandon our expectations.

The common religious solution to this problem is to create a narrative in which the unexpected event makes sense. There is a divine plan. OR this event is the working out of karma. OR the ancestors have finally gotten around to punishing me for what I did two years ago. The narrative itself varies, but the important point is that the unexpected can be reconciled with the facts on the ground.

I hope that we can discuss these and other religious problems in the comments. It is almost time to turn things over to you. But I couldn't resist making one final point.

Sam Harris frequently taxes religion with what he considers two unforgivable sins. The first is that the religious narratives are not literally true. And the second is that religion (and, in fact, pretty much anything Harris detests) is "irrational." I think that in both cases, Harris has missed the essential point.

Religious narratives, unlike scientific ones (such as theories), are not intended to be unambiguous statements of external reality. And neither religion nor science are perfectly constrained by reason. Science, for example, stands by observations that do not make sense, so long as the observations can be replicated. And religion stands by narratives that do not make sense, so long as the narrative is useful to people in emotional conflict.

However, religion and philosophy both become dangerous when people insist that they represent such a degree of truth that adherents are free to disregard conflicting observations from the outside world. As soon as someone says "Religion or reason prove X, so I will believe it no matter how much outside evidence exists to the contrary" -- that person is in danger of becoming unhinged.

The reason is simple. Evolution does not -- and probably cannot -- design anything to work in isolation. Our brains absolutely require contact with the outside world, both social and natural, in order to function properly.

 

OK, time for questions / comments. I'm hoping you'll all do your best to knock my ideas askew!

Losing Your Religion is a 24/7 discussion of religion, spirituality, and ethics that has been running for over two years.  This is a moderated forum.  For the rules of engagement or more information on the LYR group, click here.

 

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Comments: 454

Shira C. Aug 2, 2010, 1:50pm UTC
Link to the previous episode!
Shira C. Aug 2, 2010, 1:51pm UTC
First-time commenters are always welcome! Please send me a friend request.
Farmer Slim dancing barefoot in the mud Aug 2, 2010, 3:14pm UTC
Shira...


Great post!


"Sam Harris frequently taxes religion with what he considers two unforgivable sins. The first is that the religious narratives are not literally true. And the second is that religion (and, in fact, pretty much anything Harris detests) is "irrational." I think that in both cases, Harris has missed the essential point."

I don't think that Harris "misses the point" in either case...I don't think he considers the fact that religious narratives are not literally true to be an "unforgivable sin"...I think he considers the fact that in MOST...not all...instances, the religious narratives are PRESENTED as literally true is the "unforgivable sin". This is a significant point I believe.

Also...most of us feel a certain amount of disgust for that which we feel is not rational...IF...IF that non rational concept is masqueraded as being rational.
" ...pretty much anything Harris detests is "irrational"" isn't a fair accusation, it seems to me. Harris might detest that which seems to be irrational to him...but this is also significantly different than your assessment of his attitude.

Shira C. Aug 2, 2010, 3:25pm UTC
OK, here's my take. Certain segments of (certain) religions do in fact present their narratives as being literally true. These folks are popularly known as fundamentalists. A common criticism of Harris, which I share, is that he reduces all religious views to this lowest common denominator, which he then proceeds to whale on. (In fact, he insists that anyone who is NOT in this camp, but does not forthwith abandon all ties to religion of any kind, is an enabler of the crazy folks.)

That argument is a simplification so substantial as to amount to an untruth.

As for the second part, Harris resorts to the "irrational = morally obscene" argument whenever he is challenged to explain why secular folks engage in exactly the same sort of egregious horror shows as religious folks do.

My point is that it isn't a question of whether people are reasonable. It is a question of whether they bother to base their actions on observing the real world. Reason arrives at very different results depending on the premises it has to work from. It's a GIGO process.

The mistake that people make that leads them to the kind of horror that Harris decries on every page is this: they insist that the reality inside their heads is so true, it must never be challenged by observation of the reality outside their heads. It's a failure of observation, not of reason.
Farmer Slim dancing barefoot in the mud Aug 2, 2010, 5:22pm UTC
Shira...

"Certain segments of (certain) religions do in fact present their narratives as being literally true. These folks are popularly known as fundamentalists."

ALL religions present at least some of their narratives as being literally true. All of them. Fundamentalists present ALL of their narratives as being literally true...although the interpretation may consider the intent of the narrative to help with understanding the meaning of the writer.

"In fact, he
(Harris) insists that anyone who is NOT in this camp, but does not forthwith abandon all ties to religion of any kind, is an enabler of the crazy folks.)

Well yes...anyone who supports religion of any kind IS an enabler....a supporter of a non rational, non logical method.

"That argument is a simplification so substantial as to amount to an untruth."


A substantial simplification...sure...but "so substantial as to amount to an untruth." I don't believe so. This is basis of faith only driven beliefs...there is an abandonment of critical inquiry...it is surrendered as a condition of a faith only stance.

You said that Harris considers what he detests is "irrational." (..., in fact, pretty much anything Harris detests) is "irrational.") That is very limiting. I say he can detest things that are not irrational. Detesting doesn't MAKE them irrational.

"As for the second part, Harris resorts to the "irrational = morally obscene" argument whenever he is challenged to explain why secular folks engage in exactly the same sort of egregious horror shows as religious folks do."

Explaining why secular folks often engage in the same kind of behavior that religious folks do doesn't excuse the behavior of religious folks. This sort of "reasoning" would be fallacious because an action that is wrong is wrong even if another person(s) also do it.

"My point is that it isn't a question of whether people are reasonable. It is a question of whether they bother to base their actions on observing the real world. Reason arrives at very different results depending on the premises it has to work from. It's a GIGO process."

Garbage in should be rejected...not cooked, recycled and offered as a critical examination of what is reasonable.

"The mistake that people make that leads them to the kind of horror that Harris decries on every page is this: they insist that the reality inside their heads is so true, it must never be challenged by observation of the reality outside their heads. It's a failure of observation, not of reason."

The failure to challenge the truth of what is inside their heads is a lack, a failure of reasoning. What is inside their heads isn't a reality because it's inside their heads. Reality exists independent of opinion.


Shira C. Aug 2, 2010, 5:44pm UTC
OK, your defense of Harris seems to be of the form, "Harris is right," without any further attempt to evince evidence or refute my views, other than by contradiction. Given that, we'll have to agree to disagree.

The one question I would ask you is, how do you define "rational"? You seem to be conflating a great many kinds of thought under that label, so I'd appreciate a clearer explication of what you mean by the term.
Farmer Slim dancing barefoot in the mud Aug 2, 2010, 7:01pm UTC
You made STATEMENTS Shira....opinions...."views". I offered my opinions and views and I offered reasons for my views. I never said that "Harris is right"...I said that I agree with him...that I THINK he is right.

I also offered a REASON that I BELIEVE that "Harris resorts to the "irrational = morally obscene" argument whenever he is challenged to explain why secular folks engage in exactly the same sort of egregious horror shows as religious folks do." My reason that I suppose Harris doesn't respond with explanation as to "why secular folks engage in exactly the same sort of egregious horror shows as religious folks do." has been stated and stands as my refutation of your assertion.

"The one question I would ask you is, how do you define "rational"?"


I don't define "rational" Shira...I used the commonly recognized defined meanings. These three are found HERE

1. Behavior guided more by conscious reasoning than by experience, and not adversely affected by emotions.

2. Thinking process that employs logical, objective, and systematic methods in reaching a conclusion or solving a problem.

3. Person who is not mentally imbalanced or under the sway of overpowering emotions, can draw logical inferences, and is capable of normal mental process of weighing pros and cons of an action, choice, or decision. Opposite of insane. See also Reasonable.

Also...no two people who disagree must agree that they do not agree in order to establish that they disagree. It is clear or obvious. It's like standing in front of a tree and saying "look...there's a tree".

G.M. Jackson Aug 3, 2010, 2:00pm UTC
ALL religions present at least some of their narratives as being literally true.

At the very minimum the characters are literally true. I have yet to meet a theist who believes God and Jesus are metaphors. To justify the errors of the Bible, believers argue that it can't be taken literally. Of course, they can't universally agree on the proper take--who gets to decide what that proper take is? The non-literal argument is simply a feeble attempt to reconcile modern knowledge with a primative knowledge. I seriously doubt the ancient Isrealites argued at any time that the word of God should not be taken literally. There is also no reference in the Bible that gives instuction on how the holy word should be taken. The argument was simply dreamed up.
libramoon .. Aug 3, 2010, 7:04pm UTC
Perhaps what needs defining is "religion" since a great many belief systems are not the standard Judeo-Christian-Islam. Even within those there are mystic traditions that fully understand the nature of metaphor.
Farmer Slim dancing barefoot in the mud Aug 3, 2010, 8:33pm UTC
It's not that the metaphor isn't understood by Judeo-Christian (I know nothing about Islam) religions, Moon...it's that there are metaphors and lessons (narratives) that are PRESENTED in the Bible as being literally true that are not literally true....
Some of the narratives in the Bible ARE presented as metaphors...a whole bunch of them..and it is understood that they are metaphors.

It's not only mystic traditions that understand the nature of metaphor.
aniko    Aug 4, 2010, 10:18pm UTC
Slim, I think the point being missed is about the ultimate "irrationality" of reason: the paradoxes that show its limits, the lack of our ability to account for its foundations philosophically, its need to be applied to something that's already agreed upon... I think the underlying theme of Shira's post is the fuzziness we encounter when we push far enough in any direction. Harris doesn't seem to acknowledge the reality of this when it comes to "reason"--he offers it as a perfect, foolproof method to counter what he does perceive to be on shaky foundations--religion.
Farmer Slim dancing barefoot in the mud Aug 4, 2010, 10:47pm UTC
Aniko...

"I think the underlying theme of Shira's post is the fuzziness we encounter when we push far enough in any direction."

Yes...I think that is a fair statement....about what Shira is saying.

"Harris doesn't seem to acknowledge the reality of this when it comes to "reason"--he offers it as a perfect, foolproof method to counter what he does perceive to be on shaky foundations--religion. "

No....I don't think it is that simple. The problem is that the compromises with rationality (reasonableness) that are necessary for any faith based beliefs...not just Christianity of course, interfere with the process of critical inspection and consideration that should be employed in other areas of our lives.

"On the subject of religious belief, we relax standards of reasonableness and evidence that we rely on in every other area of our lives. We relax so totally that people believe the most ludicrous propositions, and are willing to organize their lives around them. Propositions like "Jesus is going to come back in the next fifty years and rectify every problem that human beings create"--or, in the Muslim world, "death in the right circumstances leads directly to Paradise." These beliefs are not very contaminated with good evidence." Interview with Sam Harris by Laura Sheahen

aniko    Aug 5, 2010, 11:58am UTC
I understand perfectly that that is what Harris is saying, Slim. I used to believe the exact same thing, and made the same argument (and got a good friend a bit upset) about how suspending "reason" and standards of evidence in one case, no matter how harmless, contaminates our thought processes in other areas. (Hadn't read Harris back then, either... I had read William K. Clifford, though.)

What I'm saying now is that I think that kind of faith in the supremacy of reason does not stand up to scrutiny, either (unfortunately). It just can't do all of what we expect it to do--there are things it cannot be employed to, and things we know are real that cause it to fail. However comforting it would be to have an absolute yardstick to measure with, we don't seem to have one in "reason". (Which is not to say that it isn't in many cases the "candle in the dark" Carl Sagan called it.)
Jerry Kays Aug 5, 2010, 12:02pm UTC
What Aniko says about the "foundation" of reason is what I harp on so often when I go so far "back" as to say that the "facts" of our existence, our perceived reality, are but from an "original" agreement by the parties involved for a basis of what would be considered so, so that we could have a commonality of agreement to build our living experience upon day by day ...

Such facts have "now" come to be considered "truth" even and have become the inverted apex of the upside down pyramid of a backwards hierarchy that we play and work upon the "top" of while we forget that it is a balance teetering upon the top edge of the apex "below" ... philosophy should recognize this "fact" and "truth" ...
Jerry Kays Aug 5, 2010, 12:18pm UTC
PS ... (the above was in reference to the earlier comment, but the latter changes nothing) ... the inverted pyramid could just as well be "looked at" as a sphere I suppose, where the "out-breath" of God (according some ancient theories) originated (Genesis or Big Bang) in our growing (expanding) UNIverse from that very center ... and "opening" from another reverse (completely opposite) realm ... such as might result when one realm disappears through it's own black hole to be gone forever to that realm ... only appearing on the "other side" as a "new" realm ...

Ancient religious beliefs older than Christianity believe that God has "out breaths" of "creation" in cycles of many thousands of years, then "in breaths" of what "we" would call destruction (Atlantis, pole reversals, etc. (2012 ?)) ... all on regular cycles ... just something to consider ... unless one prefers surprises. :-)
Farmer Slim dancing barefoot in the mud Aug 5, 2010, 1:10pm UTC
Aniko...

There is a difference, Aniko, in suspending reason altogether....and using reason or critical evaluation let's say...in the process of appraising our surroundings and trying to find answers to that which we want to understand.

Of course reason and logic have limits....but only because we lack the knowledge to apply them in certain situations. Reason is a guide....not an absolute yardstick and not a conclusion. But faith is not a guide....it is a conclusion ...a conclusion that has been reached without the use of reason...logic....critical inspection.
Farmer Slim dancing barefoot in the mud Aug 5, 2010, 1:11pm UTC
Not ignoring you Jerry....I did read what you have commented.
Jerry Kays Aug 5, 2010, 3:07pm UTC
TY Slim, no problem, nothing new coming from me ... :-)
aniko    Aug 5, 2010, 8:46pm UTC
Slim,


"Of course reason and logic have limits....but only because we lack the knowledge to apply them in certain situations."

And that's where we disagree. You're saying reason is perfect and sufficient and it's just that we fall short, but that is not what I see. We do, of course lack knowledge in many areas. But it is exactly our increasing knowledge in some areas that is now shedding a harsher light on the limitations of reason, showing them to be inherent... Reason just ain't what he hoped it would be.

"But faith is not a guide....it is a conclusion ...a conclusion that has been reached without the use of reason...logic....critical inspection."


We've been through this before... The very discussions between a number of people here show your "conclusion" and "not a guide" claim to be false. Your faith in reason does at this point appear to be a conclusion... So far. Mine may have appeared so, too, and look what happened to it. :) (The "conclusion" category doesn't stand up to critical inspection, Slim. There is no way to separate conclusions and things open to critical review in our own minds, let alone someone else's.)
Farmer Slim dancing barefoot in the mud Aug 5, 2010, 8:54pm UTC
Let me try this from a different angle Aniko....how would you proceed in life without the use of reason and logic....what would be your foundation...your building blocks....your direction...?

Also...what does this mean:
"But it is exactly our increasing knowledge in some areas that is now shedding a harsher light on the limitations of reason, showing them to be inherent..."

aniko    Aug 7, 2010, 6:39am UTC
You can't proceed in life without reason and logic, of course--you'd be completely lost. The same applies to a number of things taken on faith--we've discussed this before, so I won't repeat my examples here. Reason and logic can't proceed--there's nothing to apply them to--unless some foundational things are simply believed.

As for the quote, we've discussed that too (modern physics).
Farmer Slim dancing barefoot in the mud Aug 7, 2010, 7:38am UTC
The difference is the "faith only" of religion as contrasted with faith developed by experience and rational examination.

"Reason and logic can't proceed--there's nothing to apply them to--unless some foundational things are simply believed."

Yes...and if those believed foundational things are in error...all that follows have been contaminated by the erroneous beliefs. The rational position is to be WILLING to change one's foundational beliefs. Religions doesn't allow for this.

"There is no way to separate conclusions and things open to critical review in our own minds....."

Yes there is...if the conclusions are provisional...then they are all open to critical review. Religious beliefs are generally non provisional in that they are not to be questioned...faith only.

Modern physics is no different from classic physics...both can be explained mechanistically in terms of natural (as opposed to supernatural) causes and laws. The perceived limitations of reason in some areas of physics is only a reflection of our lack of understanding. At one point in time....a spherical earth seemed counter intuitive to most people...seemed to be a "harsh light on the limitations of reason".

By the way....we have both been in numerous conversations in which the same general topic has been considered. If you would like to dismiss as "already been there" anything you deem not worthy of further discussion...meaning that you are pretty sure further discussion won't yield anything of value for YOU....you will be also be making the judgment that your input won't provide ME with additional food for thought.
Simon P. Aug 7, 2010, 11:11am UTC
Slim

Your comment about religious beliefs being non provisional is demonstrably wrong. Every religion has undergone major revision thoughout history, and a good deal had gone in the recent past as well as currently. The pace of such revision is slower than that in some fields of science, but not by that much compared to others. But if we look at Christian, Jewish or Islamic belief systems, the degree of revision over historic time is quite impressive.
Simon P. Aug 7, 2010, 11:20am UTC
Slim

Using reason alone, please explain why a Kandinsky painting is beautiful.
Farmer Slim dancing barefoot in the mud Aug 7, 2010, 11:27am UTC
Yes Sy...but the core beliefs of each religion are the same. The core, the foundation of Christianity, for example is that there IS a god and that Jesus lived, died for our sins, and arose from death to be with god (right hand side). If this core belief has changed...it would be a violation of the instructions set forth in the Bible....and would have destroyed the Christian religion. This belief is non provisional.

Farmer Slim dancing barefoot in the mud Aug 7, 2010, 11:39am UTC
Slim

Using reason alone, please explain why a Kandinsky painting is beautiful.


Do you mean why a Kandinsky painting is beautiful to you or to me? You have assumed that I agree that Kandinsky paintings are all beautiful. But the reason that Kandinsky paintings are beautiful to you...assuming they are...is because you see them as beautiful. It is subjective to the individual.

What you are really asking me, I think, is to explain the meaning of beauty...rationally. We each have different definitions of what we consider to be beautiful.

"Beauty in things exists merely in the mind which contemplates them."
David Hume

Beauty doesn't have to be supported by reason other than personal opinion.

Frank Luke Aug 7, 2010, 12:57pm UTC
Hi Aniko, re: "I think the underlying theme of Shira's post is the fuzziness we encounter when we push far enough in any direction."

Am I saying the same thing when I say that rationality taken to extremes will result and show a paradox, even some of its opposite?

That's why I keep bringing up the example of Yin/Yang's symbolism, the two contrasting elements synthesized into a representation of Reality and Truth, with that speck of the other's color embedded in each. Brilliant, I find.

You doing good, or at least OK?
Jerry Kays Aug 7, 2010, 3:00pm UTC
The "specks" of the opposites, including the circle that binds it all, is equivalent to the (=) of Spiritual INterconnection in the BET (+=-) ... IMnsHO
aniko    Aug 7, 2010, 3:30pm UTC
Slim.

"By the way....we have both been in numerous conversations in which the same general topic has been considered. If you would like to dismiss as "already been there" anything you deem not worthy of further discussion...meaning that you are pretty sure further discussion won't yield anything of value for YOU....you will be also be making the judgment that your input won't provide ME with additional food for thought."

Wow. Where did I dismiss anything, or deem it not worthy of further discussion? Where did I say further discussion will not yield anything of value for ME? All I've said is that we discussed the question (not the "same general topic", but those exact questions) before, and what I could offer for YOU is just what I said before, over many long comments.

But well, here it is again, short version:

All conclusions reached by humans are provisional. People change their religious beliefs all the time. Inside actual human minds, your convenient dichotomy that assigns conclusiveness to religious ideas and provisionalness to scientific ones is obviously false. There is evidence against it... Ironically, your belief in this dichotomy seems firmer and more conclusive than the religious ideas of some people I know. :)

Of course modern physics provides mechanistic and natural explanations. That wasn't what we were talking about. We were talking about reason and logic, which do break down at the quantum level in various ways. What happens is not what reason and logic would predict. You say that's due to our faulty understanding, and there's no argument from me that our understanding is limited, but it is in that understanding that reason and logic exist. It's that understanding we're discussing here, not something else. The existence of perfect, non-human-limited reason, floating out there in the the universe, is a religious idea--we have no evidence of any such thing. (Sounds like supernatural thing, when you think about it.)

Simon P. Aug 7, 2010, 4:17pm UTC
Aniko

Well put.
Simon P. Aug 7, 2010, 5:56pm UTC
Beauty doesn't have to be supported by reason other than personal opinion.


THANK YOU Slim. Neither does faith. Amen.
aniko    Aug 7, 2010, 5:58pm UTC
S/B "a supernatural thing..."
Farmer Slim dancing barefoot in the mud Aug 7, 2010, 6:23pm UTC
So here is my response (again)....but not exactly the same response....

"All conclusions reached by humans are provisional. People change their religious beliefs all the time. Inside actual human minds, your convenient dichotomy that assigns conclusiveness to religious ideas and provisionalness to scientific ones is obviously false. "

This is why I wanted to push this issue. Yes...people change their religious beliefs but the beliefs themselves do not change. Science does change...in fact...this is one of the defining properties of science. It's methods change...it's conclusions change. And with these changes humans change their beliefs about the natural world. But with religion...the core tenet of each religion is static...non provisional.

Just as I said to Sy..
Farmer Slim dancing barefoot in the mud Aug 7, 2010, 11:27am EDT

Yes Sy...but the core beliefs of each religion are the same. The core, the foundation of Christianity, for example is that there IS a god and that Jesus lived, died for our sins, and arose from death to be with god (right hand side). If this core belief has changed...it would be a violation of the instructions set forth in the Bible....and would have destroyed the Christian religion. This belief is non provisional.

"Of course modern physics provides mechanistic and natural explanations. That wasn't what we were talking about. We were talking about reason and logic, which do break down at the quantum level in various ways. What happens is not what reason and logic would predict. "

I "get" that Aniko. What happens in quantum physics isn't what OUR logic would predict because with our CLASSIC logic we haven't the foundation (experience) to grasp what is happening. But there is logic in quantum mechanics...it's called quantum logic or propositional logic.

In classic logic...the property of "truth" or some other concept...is a derived proposition that is guaranteed if the premises are jointly true, because the application of valid steps preserves the property.

You see, the failure of logic would be a flaw in the premise...not the logic. But in quantum physics, the logic is a set of reasonings about the propositions or meaning which takes quantum theory into account. These reasonings may be correct or incorrect...but again...the process of the logic is not flawed.

"The existence of perfect, non-human-limited reason, floating out there in the the universe, is a religious idea--we have no evidence of any such thing. (Sounds like supernatural thing, when you think about it.)"


I have not argued for the existence of perfect reasoning. It WOULD be supernatural and there is no such thing as supernatural. But reasoning is applied logic...and the failure or success of the process of reasoning depends upon proper application of logic. The proper application of logic is guaranteed if the premises are jointly true and the steps of logic are correct or proper. We just don't always get this right.
Farmer Slim dancing barefoot in the mud Aug 7, 2010, 6:28pm UTC
Sy...

Beauty doesn't have to be supported by reason other than personal opinion.


THANK YOU Slim. Neither does faith. Amen.

And that is the issue....neither personal opinion nor faith equals truth....and truth is the advertised product of all religions...
Simon P. Aug 8, 2010, 12:26am UTC
This may be hard to believe, but I think we are actually getting somewhere. I think we have gotten closer to the heart of the matter, and that is what is meant by truth. I think there are different kinds of truth, which include the single absolute truth that you think is the only one. That absolute truth is closely related to science and reason, and is not at all bound by personal opinion or faith.

The other kind of truth is the one that says I find Kandinsky's paintings beautiful. Or I believe in Jesus Christ as my savior. These are (as you said) NOT universal truths, but personal ones.

So here could be the core of our differences. You, Slim do not credit personal truths as valid truths, while I do.
Jerry Kays Aug 8, 2010, 2:20am UTC
So here could be the core of our differences. You, Slim do not credit personal truths as valid truths, while I do. Amen ! :-)
Farmer Slim dancing barefoot in the mud Aug 8, 2010, 8:01am UTC
Sy...

There is a difference between truth and opinion.

"The other kind of truth is the one that says I find Kandinsky's paintings beautiful."

That is your OPINION Sy. Opinions may represent truth, but opinions do not ESTABLISH truths. If they did, there could actually be no truths. There can't be personal truths.

"I believe in Jesus Christ as my savior" is a true statement...providing you really do believe in Jesus as your savior...but this only means that you are sincere...it does not establish or reflect that Jesus IS a savior...only that you believe...it is your opinion...that Jesus is a savior.

Additionally, the truth exists independent of what we think we know as fact. Our "facts" could be in error.

Kant pointed out the circular aspects of "believing makes truth if the belief corresponds with the facts"...(the problem is with determining the validity of the facts)
"Truth is said to consist in the agreement of knowledge with the object. According to this mere verbal definition, then, my knowledge, in order to be true, must agree with the object. Now, I can only compare the object with my knowledge by this means, namely, by taking knowledge of it. My knowledge, then, is to be verified by itself, which is far from being sufficient for truth. For as the object is external to me, and the knowledge is in me, I can only judge whether my knowledge of the object agrees with my knowledge of the object."

Many philosophers agree with you Sy...the modern day pragmatists for example...."Truth is the end of inquiry" (Charles Sanders Peirce) or "Truth is satisfactory to believe" (Peirce and William James)

But none of the proponents of relative or personal truths have been able to rectify the issue of non contradiction. (It is not possible that something be both true and not true at the same time and in the same context.) Aristotle said that without the principle of non-contradiction we could not know anything that we do know. What this means is that it is not possible to compromise (about) the truth.

Protagoras was a Principle of Non-contradiction skeptic. Aristotle offered a way for Protagoras to avoid the non contradictory question by using this statement.."those who seek to be compelled by argument, and at the same time demand to be called to account for their views, must guard themselves by saying that the truth is not that what appears exists, but that what appears exists for him to whom it appears, and when, and to the senses to which, and under the conditions under which it appears.” (Otherwise, they will find themselves contradicting themselves).

But...even this side step has glaring faults. It makes everything relative to perception. If everything is relative to perception...nothing is true and Kandinsky's paintings are beautiful and ugly at the same time. Perception equals opinion. Truths exists regardless of and independent of opinion, again, opinion MAY represent the truth...opinions do not establish the truth.




Frank Luke Aug 8, 2010, 12:25pm UTC
Aniko, your statement that all human reasoning is provisional is what I posted awhile back, I'm with you all the way on that. Ultimate truth may be a human quest and some ideas get a good run for a long time until some genius comes along to upset conventional wisdom making a strong case for a new way of thinking until another genius comes along to trump and convince their idea is a stronger, more convincing take on "reality". Then it goes on from there.

Jerry Kays Aug 8, 2010, 1:27pm UTC
If you cannot prove a "truth" to my satisfaction it is not my truth ... period.
Farmer Slim dancing barefoot in the mud Aug 8, 2010, 4:02pm UTC
Why the hell not Jerry. You make up your own version of reality...no proof needed...nothing you can use to "prove" your reality to other people. :-)
Jerry Kays Aug 8, 2010, 6:21pm UTC
I agree Slim, and proving it to other people is not my intention ... and I only suggest the truth of the BET and it's "relative truth" because it works so well for me ... and I suspect that it would for at least half of the rest of people. :-)

I would think that only fear and lack of self confidence would sway anyone from wanting to create their own reality ... (?)
Farmer Slim dancing barefoot in the mud Aug 8, 2010, 9:31pm UTC
I think only fear and a lack of confidence would sway people to create their own reality....



Jerry Kays Aug 9, 2010, 1:17am UTC
Possibly true for some, for the rest of us though it is just knowing that we can improve upon the one that the others seem satisfied with or have resigned themselves to.
Frank Luke Aug 9, 2010, 1:53pm UTC
Aniko, you made a comment you later retracted, re: blogging being a waste of time?

I sometimes come to that feeling when a lot of time goes by after I've made numerous comments that don't get any responses. It's like talking to the wind or chattering to myself and I feel a bit disappointed I haven't provoked any responses.

Then there are times when something I post sets off a spirited train of comments and I get some great and thoughtful feedback. This makes blogging fun and worthwhile.

What's also worthwhile is the challenge to use the Enlgish language to express blog-style clearly enough to make a point. Then there's also all the info, all kinds of stuff you never knew before.
Farmer Slim dancing barefoot in the mud Aug 9, 2010, 3:25pm UTC
Exactly Frank....


These conversations are an exercise in expression as well as a forum in which information is exchanged...and one in which the mind is challenged and exercised.

Even if employed purely as a means of self expression...the effort would be worth while, in my opinion. Your comment reminds me of something my mother once told me. She was showing me some of the poems she had written....a couple of which were years old and yet, I was the first one she had asked to read them. I asked her why she had not shown them to someone sooner...to which she replied, "I write because I enjoy writing. Having others read what I have written is wonderful...especially if it gives them food for thought or it entertains them....but my primary purpose in writing is selfish. I write for me. I am showing you these two poems now because I am now ready to share them."

But anyway....your comments are almost always read by me if they are posted in a thread that I am visiting. Sometimes I respond, but if I don't, you have still stimulated some of my little mind's circuits.

Regarding the comment of yours that precedes this one of mine....I totally agree with everything you have said...including the somewhat insignificant disappointment (compared to the numerous other disappointments in life) I feel if what I post doesn't evoke a response from someone.
Frank Luke Aug 9, 2010, 4:02pm UTC
Slim, your reading my posts is such a compliment as I respect your good mind. I feel so pre-empted with my painting that I limit myself to a couple of hours each day and have found your comments usually of worthy attn.

I will attempt to respond more to your posts when they pique my interest.
Bloggings fun when there are respondants.

All well on the farm?

TY for responding!
Farmer Slim dancing barefoot in the mud Aug 9, 2010, 4:19pm UTC
All is well at the farm....working hard getting fences in.

You are well I hope.
aniko    Aug 9, 2010, 8:54pm UTC
Frank, in response to your three comments: I think you might be saying the same thing, I'm doing okay (but I have limited internet time), and I don't think I ever made a comment about blogging being a waste of time... I think there was a comment I deleted here immediately after posting it--I think it was on Ann's comment, so she may have seen it--but it was definitely about something else... It may not have been on this post.

(I'm completely happy if no one responds to what I say.)
Frank Luke Aug 9, 2010, 9:42pm UTC
Anilko, I think it was posted that you were retracting the statement when I read it and responded to it of my feeling that indeed, blogging sometimes seems a waste of time but with the caveats that I mentioned.

What I would add to all truth being provisional is that until some ideas that become accepted as truth is disproved, that for the time the intellectual community accepts that as truth it is truth, though provisional. Till a more convincing truth is presented and accepted to supplant established "truth".
Isn't that how truth works?
aniko    Aug 10, 2010, 6:19am UTC
I don't know what to say to that, Frank. I didn't say that (I could not have said it, since I don't believe it to be the case, and didn't at any point). And I didn't retract anything I said here. Could you be thinking of someone else? Or if you think it was me, could you tell me where you think I said anything to this effect?
aniko    Aug 10, 2010, 7:18am UTC
Slim, you said:


“Yes...people change their religious beliefs but the beliefs themselves do not change. Science does change...in fact...this is one of the defining properties of science. It's methods change...it's conclusions change. And with these changes humans change their beliefs about the natural world. But with religion...the core tenet of each religion is static...non provisional.”


I’ll try to say something new, then. We have a good deal of fuzziness in this discussion—not the kind we encounter at the outer edges of our knowledge, but the kind that we can eliminate with a bit of critical thinking. That good old logic does work here, if we make it work.

Here's the problem: if we're going to to compare, we have to compare entities that correspond to each other, not apples and oranges. The “[religious] beliefs themselves” and “science” don’t line up, for example--we are talking about things occupying different levels in the conceptual framework. What we can compare “religious beliefs” to is “scientific beliefs” (ideas held true by the individual based on scientific reasoning). The different entities that have come up so far line up like this, it seems to me:

1. specific religious belief (e.g. Jesus is the Savior) :: specific scientific belief (HIV causes AIDS)

2. the set of religious beliefs held by a person :: the set of scientific beliefs held by a person

3. a particular religion, (e.g. Christianity) :: a particular scientific framework (e.g. classical physics)

4. religion :: science (as approaches to "truth")

It’s clear from the discussion above in this thread that we agree that 2 and 3 change on both sides. People examine the beliefs they hold, whether they’re religious or scientific beliefs, all the time. They discard some; they acquire new ones. We also agreed that particular religions do change over time, just like scientific theories/frameworks do. On the other hand, we can safely say that 1. doesn’t change on either side, by the logic of identity--if the belief changes, it no longer equals itself. (Remember that this is different from a person holding or no longer holding a belief, which falls under 2. That leaves 4, at which point we’re dealing with very general and therefore vague concepts, and it is becoming difficult to address them with the tools of logic, but in the sense that science changes (the set of beliefs held true changes), religion does, too; and in the sense that religion doesn’t (its essential nature, which will be awfully hard to describe, but we can approach it as what it does for people), religion doesn’t, and science doesn’t either. In conclusion, I see no sign of that “final conclusions vs. provisional ones” distinction that you keep telling us about, Slim.


"I "get" that Aniko. What happens in quantum physics isn't what OUR logic would predict because with our CLASSIC logic we haven't the foundation (experience) to grasp what is happening. But there is logic in quantum mechanics...it's called quantum logic or propositional logic.

In classic logic...the property of "truth" or some other concept...is a derived proposition that is guaranteed if the premises are jointly true, because the application of valid steps preserves the property.

You see, the failure of logic would be a flaw in the premise...not the logic. But in quantum physics, the logic is a set of reasonings about the propositions or meaning which takes quantum theory into account. These reasonings may be correct or incorrect...but again...the process of the logic is not flawed. "


As your comment also implies when it gives the standard definition of a valid argument, standard propositional logic is classical logic. Quantum logic is a special kind of propositional logic. That it works for what it was created for is neat, but the point is that it's not what you call logic when you criticize someone's ideas based on logic and reason. If I told you that it's true that a human who is either a child or an adult is a person but it's not true that a human who is a child is a person or a human who is an adult is a person, you'd be right to declare me certifiable. You will, rightly, insist on the distributive property as being a basic logical principle--and yet, it does not apply in quantum logic. (You can of course state that as a premise, and pretend that "logic" (the "process", the "valid steps") has not been affected, but that's just sleight of hand. It clearly has--you've taken away part of it.)

"I have not argued for the existence of perfect reasoning. It WOULD be supernatural and there is no such thing as supernatural."

You're doing it every time you contrast "OUR logic", with its failures, with something that would work every time, were we able to "apply it properly" and "get it right"--like below. Of course, that necessary implication exists within "our logic", so maybe it's flawed. :)

" But reasoning is applied logic...and the failure or success of the process of reasoning depends upon proper application of logic. The proper application of logic is guaranteed if the premises are jointly true and the steps of logic are correct or proper. We just don't always get this right."

(There, that's what I mean.)
Farmer Slim dancing barefoot in the mud Aug 10, 2010, 8:25am UTC
Aniko....

It's not the process of logic that fails...or is flawed...it is our flaw in the premise that causes a failure of logic....the logic hasn't failed us...we have failed the logic.

1 "specific religious belief (e.g. Jesus is the Savior) :: specific scientific belief (HIV causes AIDS)"

We also agreed that particular religions do change over time, just like scientific theories/frameworks do. On the other hand, we can safely say that 1. doesn’t change on either side, by the logic of identity--if the belief changes, it no longer equals itself. (Remember that this is different from a person holding or no longer holding a belief, which falls under 2.

No...I do not see the distinction. Scientific beliefs by individuals or beliefs that are held by groups of people (the scientific community or the entire world) are still provisional. If the belief changes, specific scientific belief...individual beliefs might change...probably will change, but change will have occurred. In the case of the specific religious belief...Jesus is the Savior (non provisional)..this cannot change else the religion itself would be destroyed. If the specific scientific belief....HIV causes AIDS (provisional), changes...the science that produced the provisional statement still exists.
And this is what happens within the scientific community. HIV causes AIDS is not universally held as accurate within the science community. Jesus is savior IS universally held as accurate AND non provisional by the group and within the group that call themselves "Christian".

"Spirochetes Awake: Syphilis and Nietzsche's Mad Genius" Lynn Margulis)...chapter 8 , "Dazzle Gradually" Lynn Margulis and Dorian Sagan

"I have not been able to locate acceptable scientific evidence in the published professional literature that the human immunological retrovirus (HIV) causes AIDS. Rather, with Duesberg (Dr. Peter Duesberg, one of the discoverers of the machinations of the retroviruses) I conclude that the claim that " HIV causes AIDS" is an invention.
The parallels of acquired immunological syndrome symptoms with those presented by syphilis are astonishing. Perhaps there are no new diseases, only new drugs."


You're doing it every time you contrast "OUR logic", with its failures, with something that would work every time, were we able to "apply it properly" and "get it right"--like below. Of course, that necessary implication exists within "our logic", so maybe it's flawed. :)


OUR logic would be flawed but the flaw is ours...not the logic.
Frank Luke Aug 10, 2010, 12:38pm UTC
Aniko: I saw that as a little preview of email I saw on my homepage and when I tried to open it up for more, it wasn't there anymore.
Simon P. Aug 10, 2010, 6:43pm UTC
I would like to make 2 comments, unrelated to each other.
1. Aniko, I love the way you built that case regarding logic and reason and the difficulty in getting to truth using what we think are logical premises. This leads indirectly to comment 2.
2. Slim.
Your example of the "scientific" belief that AIDS is not caused by HIV is actually an example of a religious belief masquerading as a scientific one, no different from Intelligent Design or Creation "Science." While I used to have a great deal of respect for Lynn Margulis, that vanished when I found her name on a list of "scientists" who supported a 911 Truther petition. As far as the HIV AIDS story, Peter Duesberg, in my opinion should be tried for the crime of mass murder. His religious/political insistence on his theory is based on a political opposition to drug company profits. While no one in the scientific community took his nonsense seriously, the first Health Minister of South Africa, wholse anti colonialism and anti capitalist politics closely matched his, did. The result was the abondonment of all preventative measures in South Africa, the refusal to use proven Anti AIDS drugs, and the needless deaths of well over 100,000 people.

While we often talk about the murder of heretics by Christians, and other atrocities of organized religion, we do tend to skip over the much greater number of victims of the religion of political absolutism, including of course Pol Pot, Stalin, Mao, Ceacescu, and many others.

What makes Duesberg and his idiotic conspiracy theory supporter like Margulis so dangerous is the fact that they do indeed have previous scientific reputations, and therefore they are listened to by the gullible and naive. The results are not ususally as grave as they were in South Africa. Duesberg is famous for being a scientific contrarian (He announced that he doesnt believe in oncogenes several decades ago). But the point is there is no scientific basis for his views. If you examine them you will find something you might not have expected. Religion.
Farmer Slim dancing barefoot in the mud Aug 10, 2010, 7:33pm UTC
Sy...

Of course your expertise in this field is a given and I appreciate your information.

Re Duesberg...
"But the point is there is no scientific basis for his views. If you examine them you will find something you might not have expected. Religion."

How so? I haven't read Duesberg's position about the HIV AIDS connection...But I have read a brief account of Margulis' argument. (Where is the "religion"?) And she does present what seem to me to be a scientific basis for her views about this. Have you read them?

I am asking Sy..not debating...I can't debate this issue...I haven't the background or the acquired knowledge. But I can read. And I would like to ask you 12 questions.

1. Has a causal connection EVER been established between HIV and AIDS?

2. Are people dying from AIDS that are HIV negative?

3. Can you show that AZT can actually kill HIV and do you agree that AZT is toxic to all cells?

4. Does the test for HIV check for antibodies that are SPECIFIC to the HIV virus?

5. Can other conditions cause the test result of HIV positive?

6. Do you think that Dr Kary Mullis, biochemist, 1993 Nobel Prize for Chemistry is the same kind of "crackpot" as Duesberg?

""If there is evidence that HIV causes AIDS, there should be scientific documents which either singly or collectively demonstrate that fact, at least with a high probability. There is no such document." (Sunday Times (London) 28 nov. 1993) Dr. Kary Mullis

7. Is this statement outdated?

8. How about these...are all these scientists crackpots that should be tried for the crime of mass murder?

* Dr. Heinz Ludwig Sänger, Emeritus Professor of Molecular Biology and Virology, Max-Planck-Institutes for Biochemy, München. Robert Koch Award 1978:

"Up to today there is actually no single scientifically really convincing evidence for the existence of HIV. Not even once such a retrovirus has been isolated and purified by the methods of classical virology." (Letter to Süddeutsche Zeitung 2000)

* Dr. Serge Lang, Professor of Mathematics, Yale University:

"I do not regard the causal relationship between HIV and any disease as settled. I have seen considerable evidence that highly improper statistics concerning HIV and AIDS have been passed off as science, and that top members of the scientific establishment have carelessly, if not irresponsible, joined the media in spreading misinformation about the nature of AIDS." (Yale Scientific, Fall 1994)

* Dr. Harry Rubin, Professor of Molecular and Cell Biology, University of California at Berkeley: Prof. Harry Rubin

"It is not proven that AIDS is caused by HIV infection, nor is it proven that it plays no role whatever in the syndrome." (Sunday Times (London) 3 April 1994)

* Dr. Richard Strohman, Emeritus Professor of Cell Biology at the University of California at Berkeley:

"In the old days it was required that a scientist address the possibilities of proving his hypothesis wrong as well as right. Now there's none of that in standard HIV-AIDS program with all its billions of dollars." (Penthouse April 1994)

* Dr. Harvey Bialy, Molecular Biologist, former editor of Bio/Technology and Nature Biotechnology: Harvey Bialy

"HIV is an ordinary retrovirus. There is nothing about this virus that is unique. Everything that is discovered about HIV has an analogue in other retroviruses that don't cause AIDS. HIV only contains a very small piece of genetic information. There's no way it can do all these elaborate things they say it does." (Spin June 1992)

* Dr. Roger Cunningham, Immunologist, Microbiologist and Director of the Centre for Immunology at the State University of New York at Buffalo:

"Unfortunately, an AIDS 'establishment' seems to have formed that intends to discourage challenges to the dogma on one side and often insists on following discredited ideas on the other." (Sunday Times (London) 3 April 1994)

* Dr. Gordon Stewart, Emeritus Professor of Public Health, University of Glasgow: Prof. Gordon Stwart

"AIDS is a behavioural disease. It is multifactorial, brought on by several simultaneous strains on the immune system - drugs, pharmaceutical and recreational, sexually transmitted diseases, multiple viral infections." (Spin June 1992)

* Dr. Alfred Hässig, (1921-1999), former Professor of Immunology at the University of Bern, and former director Swiss Red Cross blood banks:Prof. Alfred Hassig

"The sentence of death accompanying the medical diagnosis of AIDS should be abolished." (Sunday Times (London) 3 April 1994)

* Dr. Charles Thomas, former Professor of Biochemistry, Harvard and John Hopkins Universities:

"The HIV-causes-AIDS dogma represents the grandest and perhaps the most morally destructive fraud that has ever been perpetrated on young men and women of the Western world." (Sunday Times (London) 3 April 1994)

* Dr. Joseph Sonnabend, New York Physician, founder of the American Foundation for AIDS Research (AmFAR):Joe Sonnabend

"The marketing of HIV, through press releases and statements, as a killer virus causing AIDS without the need for any other factors, has so distorted research and treatment that it may have caused thousands of people to suffer and die." (Sunday times (London) 17 May 1992)

* Dr. Andrew Herxheimer, Emeritus Professor of Pharmacology, UK Cochrane Centre, Oxford:

"I think zidovudine [AZT] was never really evaluated properly and that its efficacy has never been proved, but it's toxicity certainly is important. And I think it has killed a lot of people. Especially at the high doses. I personally think it not worth using alone or in combination at all." (Continuum Oct. 2000)

* Dr. Etienne de Harven, Emeritus Professor of Pathology, at the University of Toronto: Dr. Etienne de Harven

"Dominated by the media, by special pressure groups and by the interests of several pharmaceutical companies, the AIDS establishment efforts to control the disease lost contact with open-minded, peer-reviewed medical science since the unproven HIV/AIDS hypothesis received 100% of the research funds while all other hypotheses were ignored." (Reappraising AIDS Nov./Dec. 1998)

* Dr. Bernard Forscher, former editor of the U.S. Proceeding of the National Academy of Sciences:

"The HIV hypothesis ranks with the 'bad air' theory for malaria and the 'bacterial infection' theory of beriberi and pellagra [caused by nutritional deficiencies]. It is a hoax that became a scam." (Sunday Times (London) 3 April 1994)

10. Are you aware of these predictions: (based upon the scientific consensus of the day?)

* "By 1990 one in five heterosexuals will be dead of AIDS"
- Oprah Winfrey, 1987
* "By 1991, HIV will have spread to between 5 and 10 million Americans"
- Newsweek, 1986
* "By 1996, three to five million Americans will be HIV positive and one million will be dead of AIDS"
- NIAID Director Anthony Fauci, New York Times, January 14, 1986
* "Without massive federal AIDS intervention, there may be no one left."
- HHS Secretary Donna Shalala, 1993, Washington Times, June 8, 1999

11. Have you read the Durban Declaration rebuttal?

12. Do you want me to just shut the fuck up and go away? :-)
aniko    Aug 10, 2010, 8:37pm UTC
Slim,


"It's not the process of logic that fails...or is flawed...it is our flaw in the premise that causes a failure of logic....the logic hasn't failed us...we have failed the logic."


I got it the first time, Slim. Logic is an unflawed thing which may or may not include the distributive law, depending on whether we need it or not, and whose exact processes depend on what they're being applied to, but which thoroughly dismisses stuff like religion as illogical... by some of those processes. :)

The distinction you say you don't see is the one between an apple turning into a pear (the belief itself changing) and an person throwing away an apple and getting a pear instead (the person changing what he believes). (I won't try to address the rest unless this is clear--keeping in mind the different levels and not mixing them is my point here, the new content I'm trying to add to what has been said many times before.)

I am of course aware that not everyone accepts the HIV theory of AIDS. That is exactly why I used that example. So that it's analogous to and lines up with "Jesus is the Savior".

Farmer Slim dancing barefoot in the mud Aug 10, 2010, 9:41pm UTC
Yes Aniko...I am clear about people changing what they believe. Are you clear about the beliefs themselves remaining the same? If a person throws away an apple and gets a pear instead...the apple is STILL an apple.

"I am of course aware that not everyone accepts the HIV theory of AIDS. That is exactly why I used that example. So that it's analogous to and lines up with "Jesus is the Savior". "

You said that 'Jesus is the Savior' is a specific religious belief. Those who throw this apple away and choose a pear can't do so and remain Christians because this specific religious belief is the foundation of that particular religious group. They may still remain religious, but won't be the same kind of apple.

Then you said that HIV causes AIDS is a specific scientific belief. Yes it is, but the scientist may disregard or change his mind about this belief...and still be a scientist. He doesn't HAVE to believe that HIV causes AIDS in order to be a scientist.

That is exactly why it isn't analogous to and and doesn't line up with "Jesus is the Savior". :-)
Farmer Slim dancing barefoot in the mud Aug 11, 2010, 7:24am UTC
Sy...

I am NOT saying that I believe there is no HIV/AIDS connection. I am asking for your further comments because you have associated religion, somehow, with science. Certainly not all scientists are right about all the issues. And many times, it isn't the crackpot individual or the group of minority crackpots that get it wrong. This is my point and I will cite the massive, incomprehensible amount of damage the medical profession, as a group, has caused with the insistence that eating low fat diets and eating high carb diets is good for us....the USDA food pyramid....grains form the base and look at America now. We are the most overweight country in the world. We have a runaway diabetes epidemic...high instances of heart disease, high blood pressure and when confronted with the controversial claims of "crackpots" such as Robert Atkins, that the establishment had it wrong...the establishment responded by strengthening it's position that fat was the culprit and that Americans just eat too much (fast food). The avoided question was "why do Americans eat too much...why has the super size portion become the standard portion?"

The answer, IN PART, is because eating high carb diets causes hunger....AND unused carbs are stored as fat....unusable fat....AND those high starch, high carbs diets have contributed to the now epidemic problem of diabetes...do you disagree? We have been crammed with high fructose corn sweeteners which, unlike sugar, cannot be efficiently processed by our bodies....and the establishment STILL places grains and cereals as the foundation of our diets.

Simon P. Aug 11, 2010, 8:22pm UTC
You are right when you contrast science with religion and state that religion is dependent on faith, while science is only dependent on faith in the scientific method. I think you will agree that that faith has been largely justified by results. What becomes more difficult to see is where faith defines religious views that are not related to God, Jesus, or spirituality.

I don’t know where you got all of those quotes, but my guess would be that you found an anti HIV web site. One can find anti vaccine web sites, anti evolution, sites, 911 truther web sites, Obama is an alien web sites, and alien take over web sites, with almost the same degree of convincing sounding quotes and proofs.

The internet is in fact the worst enemy of popular science, because there are no filters, no peer review, no checks. Anyone can post anything. Scientists pay no attention to these things because they are of no scientific value. They report faith based ideas.

Some books can be just as bad. Books are not peer reviewed. They need not be balanced. Most books are written to make a point. They take an advocacy point of view and rarely present anything to help the opposing view.

So how can you tell the difference? How can a regular person know if a web site or a book is reporting real science or a faith based world view? It isn’t easy. One way is to see if everything lines up according to one general view. That is a danger sign. Real science (as you know) doesn’t work that way. As soon as you see the word “proof” or proves, run, this is not found in scientific discourse.

So in general terms, everyone can sound convincing. I could probably persuade you that a diet of nothing but carrots, London broil and twinkies is the healthiest thing you could eat. (I did once post an article about diet. If I find it, I will post a link).

I respect your respect for logic and reason. But you should see that logic and reason do not lead to truth. It seemed perfectly logical to conclude that Paul was dead (I think you might remember that story). All of the web sites sound logical, and seem to use reason in coming to their conclusions. But they are con games. As you know, false premises can lead to a logical valid and erroneous conclusion.

Next comment will get more specific.
Simon P. Aug 11, 2010, 9:12pm UTC
1. Has a causal connection EVER been established between HIV and AIDS?

2. Are people dying from AIDS that are HIV negative?

3. Can you show that AZT can actually kill HIV and do you agree that AZT is toxic to all cells?

4. Does the test for HIV check for antibodies that are SPECIFIC to the HIV virus?

5. Can other conditions cause the test result of HIV positive?

6. Do you think that Dr Kary Mullis, biochemist, 1993 Nobel Prize for Chemistry is the same kind of "crackpot" as Duesberg?

""If there is evidence that HIV causes AIDS, there should be scientific documents which either singly or collectively demonstrate that fact, at least with a high probability. There is no such document." (Sunday Times (London) 28 nov. 1993) Dr. Kary Mullis

7. Is this statement outdated?

8. How about these...are all these scientists crackpots that should be tried for the crime of mass murder?


Answers
1. Yes
2. No
3. Yes and yes
4. Pretty much so. Sufficient to be useful
5. There are false positives, but they are not caused by specific conditions
6. Mullis is not a crackpot
7. Yes
8. No.

You should know that in the early 1990s there was some controversy about the identification of AIDS caused by HIV, although the majority consensus was already very strong that HIV causes AIDS, and is the only cause of AIDS. There is no longer any controversy, except for crackpots.

* Dr. Heinz Ludwig Sänger, Emeritus Professor of Molecular Biology and Virology, Max-Planck-Institutes for Biochemy, München. Robert Koch Award 1978:

"Up to today there is actually no single scientifically really convincing evidence for the existence of HIV. Not even once such a retrovirus has been isolated and purified by the methods of classical virology." (Letter to Süddeutsche Zeitung 2000)


This quote is out of context. HIV has been isolated and purified well before 2000, so I can only imagine that Dr. Sanger was misquoted, or was making a point about classical virology. I would like to see the quote in full context.

* Dr. Serge Lang, Professor of Mathematics, Yale University:

"I do not regard the causal relationship between HIV and any disease as settled. I have seen considerable evidence that highly improper statistics concerning HIV and AIDS have been passed off as science, and that top members of the scientific establishment have carelessly, if not irresponsible, joined the media in spreading misinformation about the nature of AIDS." (Yale Scientific, Fall 1994)


This is simply outdated.

* Dr. Harry Rubin, Professor of Molecular and Cell Biology, University of California at Berkeley: Prof. Harry Rubin

"It is not proven that AIDS is caused by HIV infection, nor is it proven that it plays no role whatever in the syndrome." (Sunday Times (London) 3 April 1994)


I happen to know Harry Rubin. He is quite a character, and likes to be a contrarian. But this quote is not relevant since it is outdated.

* Dr. Richard Strohman, Emeritus Professor of Cell Biology at the University of California at Berkeley:

"In the old days it was required that a scientist address the possibilities of proving his hypothesis wrong as well as right. Now there's none of that in standard HIV-AIDS program with all its billions of dollars." (Penthouse April 1994)


I hesitate in criticising a quote from such a respectable journal, but again, out of date.

* Dr. Harvey Bialy, Molecular Biologist, former editor of Bio/Technology and Nature Biotechnology: Harvey Bialy

"HIV is an ordinary retrovirus. There is nothing about this virus that is unique. Everything that is discovered about HIV has an analogue in other retroviruses that don't cause AIDS. HIV only contains a very small piece of genetic information. There's no way it can do all these elaborate things they say it does." (Spin June 1992)


This is way of date, and in fact wasn’t even try true in 1992. Again taken way out of context.

* Dr. Roger Cunningham, Immunologist, Microbiologist and Director of the Centre for Immunology at the State University of New York at Buffalo:

"Unfortunately, an AIDS 'establishment' seems to have formed that intends to discourage challenges to the dogma on one side and often insists on following discredited ideas on the other." (Sunday Times (London) 3 April 1994)


Out of context. Out of date.

* Dr. Gordon Stewart, Emeritus Professor of Public Health, University of Glasgow: Prof. Gordon Stwart

"AIDS is a behavioural disease. It is multifactorial, brought on by several simultaneous strains on the immune system - drugs, pharmaceutical and recreational, sexually transmitted diseases, multiple viral infections." (Spin June 1992)


This was a common view at the time, and it isn’t really wrong. There are multifactorial causes of AIDS that include some of these things. But HIV is the prime cause, that can then be exacerbated by other factors.

* Dr. Alfred Hässig, (1921-1999), former Professor of Immunology at the University of Bern, and former director Swiss Red Cross blood banks:Prof. Alfred Hassig

"The sentence of death accompanying the medical diagnosis of AIDS should be abolished." (Sunday Times (London) 3 April 1994)


That has been proven to be true.

* Dr. Charles Thomas, former Professor of Biochemistry, Harvard and John Hopkins Universities:

"The HIV-causes-AIDS dogma represents the grandest and perhaps the most morally destructive fraud that has ever been perpetrated on young men and women of the Western world." (Sunday Times (London) 3 April 1994)


I don’t know this guy. Out of date. I wonder what he would say now.

* Dr. Joseph Sonnabend, New York Physician, founder of the American Foundation for AIDS Research (AmFAR):Joe Sonnabend

"The marketing of HIV, through press releases and statements, as a killer virus causing AIDS without the need for any other factors, has so distorted research and treatment that it may have caused thousands of people to suffer and die." (Sunday times (London) 17 May 1992)


This is not wrong either. It is a bit out of date, since at that time, there was still quite a bit of evidence, ( and there is still is some) that many other lifestyle factors play a role in AIDS severity. I think that is what is meant by the last sentence. Again the whole thing is taken out of context.

* Dr. Andrew Herxheimer, Emeritus Professor of Pharmacology, UK Cochrane Centre, Oxford:

"I think zidovudine [AZT] was never really evaluated properly and that its efficacy has never been proved, but it's toxicity certainly is important. And I think it has killed a lot of people. Especially at the high doses. I personally think it not worth using alone or in combination at all." (Continuum Oct. 2000)


Way out of date. Emeritus professors are highly regarded but they don’t always keep up with the literature.

* Dr. Etienne de Harven, Emeritus Professor of Pathology, at the University of Toronto: Dr. Etienne de Harven

"Dominated by the media, by special pressure groups and by the interests of several pharmaceutical companies, the AIDS establishment efforts to control the disease lost contact with open-minded, peer-reviewed medical science since the unproven HIV/AIDS hypothesis received 100% of the research funds while all other hypotheses were ignored." (Reappraising AIDS Nov./Dec. 1998)


Again, out of date, and seems like this guy has his own special interest to push.

* Dr. Bernard Forscher, former editor of the U.S. Proceeding of the National Academy of Sciences:

"The HIV hypothesis ranks with the 'bad air' theory for malaria and the 'bacterial infection' theory of beriberi and pellagra [caused by nutritional deficiencies]. It is a hoax that became a scam." (Sunday Times (London) 3 April 1994)


This one puzzles me. I would like to see more on this one.

10. Are you aware of these predictions: (based upon the scientific consensus of the day?)

* "By 1990 one in five heterosexuals will be dead of AIDS"
- Oprah Winfrey, 1987
* "By 1991, HIV will have spread to between 5 and 10 million Americans"
- Newsweek, 1986
* "By 1996, three to five million Americans will be HIV positive and one million will be dead of AIDS"
- NIAID Director Anthony Fauci, New York Times, January 14, 1986
* "Without massive federal AIDS intervention, there may be no one left."
- HHS Secretary Donna Shalala, 1993, Washington Times, June 8, 1999


I am aware of all of those predictions. My academic department at the time, at NYU Medical Center included one of the first groups to identify AIDS as a new disease in the early 1980s. Once the etiology was found to be a communicable virus which targets the very immune cells that usually kill viruses, it became clear to all public health scientists that AIDS could be a new Black Plague. The early epidemiology went along with that. It spread among homosexuals at an astonishing rate, and then jumped to heterosexuals through drug use and blood contamination. In Africa a different strain of the virus allowed it to survive better in the vagina, and led to a two way sexual transmission. The epidemiology of AIDS in Aftica is quite close to the worst epidemic caused by an infectious agent.

So why didn’t it happen? It didn’t happen because first the homosexual community and later world governments and international agencies took the preventative measures that stopped the spread. Secondly, several drugs, much better than AZT were developed that interfered with one of the HIV genes, reverseing the disease causing aspects of HIV virus.

11. No

12 No

But, after engaging with the antivaccine crazies on Gather to no avail, I have decided not to repeat that experience. I would recommend the NIAID web site for a thorough and objective and real discussion of AIDS and HIV. If you tell me that you have read that NIH represents establishment science and cannot be trusted, then I have nothing further to say to you, except that I wish you and your co religionists well.
Simon P. Aug 11, 2010, 9:18pm UTC
Slim

I am now finished with this discussion. During my attempts at injecting reason into the vaccine issue, I showed that all of 22 publshed papers that the poster claimed (actually, she was just cutting and pasting from a web site) supported the connection between autism and vaccination, actually made no such claim. this had no effect. I am through debating science by web site. As I said, if anything I said above leads you to question please check out the literature or the NIAID web site.

Otherwise, I will insist on a debate with you on the historical reality of Jesus Christ as proven by 2354 web sites, complete with all manner of "proof".
Simon P. Aug 11, 2010, 9:26pm UTC
As for your dietary issue, I am not sure I understand your point. You are correct that Americans eat too much sugar. And most of this is in processed foods. But the effect you speak of, the desire for more food, is also produced by excess dietary fat. The same people who brought you cigarettes have taken over the American food industry and have figured out that adding a substantial amount of fat and sugar to food, can do for food, what nicotine does for cigarettes, get people hooked.

What I dont get is your argument against the public health community. We have been saying this for years. Atkins is in fact a crackpot, along with all such "diet doctors" the problem is not too much carbs, it is too much food. Eliminating carbohydrates is a crackpot idea. Sorry. Bad biochemistry. Too much carbs is bad for you. Too much meat is bad for you. Too much onions is bad for you (if you want to get a second date).

So, again we are faced with a religious idea based on faith. Gee Slim, you are beginning to sound like a fundamentailist (lol). Unlike the AIDS HIV story, I would be happy to respond further to this issue.
Farmer Slim dancing barefoot in the mud Aug 11, 2010, 10:57pm UTC
You've got me wrong Sy....I am a advocate of science and the scientific method. The reason I posted all those statements from all those people of science...even realizing that they were dated...is because you seem to have discounted Lynn Margulis' opinion based upon her name being listed on an accusatory conspiracy theory...and that her opinion about the HIV/AIDS controversy has been influenced by someone you harbor an intense hatred for...probably justified, but the judgment against Duesberg is...should be a separate issue from the conclusions drawn about Margulis...assuming(?) you have read her argument and by your own admission...not all that have questioned the HIV/AIDS relationship are crackpots (Dr Kary Mullis for example) and YET I UNDERSTAND that you would discount ALL that challenge the CURRENT science of the HIV/AIDS relationship. (I HAVE gone to the NIAID website...http://www.niaid.nih.gov/topics/HIVAIDS/Understanding/howHIVCausesAIDS/pages/relationshiphivaids.aspx)

But challenging the majority consensus is profitable for many reasons. Sure...these challenges can be a distraction...(the global warming issue...we need to quit doing what we are doing regardless of the specific effect we think are hare having on our climate....as we have both agreed )

My first mention of the HIV/AIDS was in response to what Aniko had said about her claimed scientific opinion/belief.... "specific scientific belief (HIV causes AIDS)". She later said she KNEW this wasn't a universally held scientific belief....AFTER I threw a bucket of shit into the fan. I believe her...the misunderstanding was mine ...although I challenge her claim that the statement is analogous to and lines up with "specific religious belief, Jesus is the Savior".

Yes sir...I am fully willing to discuss the carbohydrate issue. My reference to Dr Atkins was an acknowledgment that he, Atkins, is responsible for an entirely new manner of assessing the value of low fats diets as a method of controlling or losing weight.

You seem to have missed a point I THOUGHT I made....you said "....the problem is not too much carbs, it is too much food."

The problem IS too many carbs AND too much food, but one of the reasons that too much food is part of the problem is because carbs cause hunger because carbs are quickly converted to sugar in the stomach and rapidly absorbed into the blood, raise blood sugar, burned BEFORE fat and protein..and the excess carbs...those NOT used rapidly are stored as fat. Glucose levels drop, insulin levels fall and suddenly we crave MORE food....carbs. This also contributes to insulin resistance.

Do you AGREE so far?
Farmer Slim dancing barefoot in the mud Aug 12, 2010, 8:07am UTC
By the way...I DO understand that excess fat, sugar and protein are ALL stored as fat. My point is that the high carb diet stimulates hunger and this leads to more consumption of carbs (if the eater thinks that avoiding fat by substituting carbs is beneficial).
Frank Luke Aug 12, 2010, 12:34pm UTC
Sy, re: "And that is the issue....neither personal opinion nor faith equals truth...."

Since reasonble folks can agree with that, it shouldn't be a problem to let sleeping dogs lie and allow those people to continue in their opinions.

The problems arise when folks try to rain on other people's opinions and pooh-pooh or enforce their respective beliefs on others. Asking for pushback, sometimes lamentably violently.
Farmer Slim dancing barefoot in the mud Aug 12, 2010, 12:58pm UTC
You skipped a step Frank. The problems arise when the opinions are presented as truth. It is at this point that the challenges begin. You can believe what ever you want to believe....but if you try to claim your belief as FACT...you WILL be confronted....especially regarding claims that affect others ...like claiming that creation is a FACT and trying to teach this "fact" in public schools.
Farmer Slim dancing barefoot in the mud Aug 12, 2010, 1:06pm UTC
Like claiming that American was founded as a "Christian nation" and trying to rewrite history to make your claim true.

Like claiming that homosexuality is a sin and trying to legislate private personal matters by using the "authority" of the fucking Bible.

Like passing prop 8 in California and insisting the the majority are Constitutionally justified in restricting the rights of a specific minority.

Like claiming the "truth" the Bible warrants the mandated closing of businesses on a Christian day of rest...remember the blue laws...well they are still on the books in many parts of the country. Try buying a bottle of wine or a six pack...or a bottle of Scotch on Sunday in many parts of the South.

Simon P. Aug 12, 2010, 7:01pm UTC
Slim

You have the basic physiology right. But this does not translate into the idea that one should eat no carbohydrates at all. Bread, cereals, grains, pasta, potatoes are not bad for you, do not cause hunger and will not make you fat if eaten in moderation. Atkins takes some biochemical and physiological facts, and then distorts them to the point of lunacy. It like saying you can drown if you are in the middle of the ocean without a life preserver, so its better not to take a shower, because being in water is dangerous.

But other than that, I do agree with you.

And one small point, I dont hate Duesberg, I have never met him. I do find his ideas and his personality and his behavior objectionable. I have not read the latest Margulis book, but I have read some of her earlier work.
Farmer Slim dancing barefoot in the mud Aug 12, 2010, 9:20pm UTC
Sy...

"But this does not translate into the idea that one should eat no carbohydrates at all."

I never said that Sy...damn..you have a propensity for reading what isn't there. I really wish you wouldn't do that. REALLY. It's just not good form.

I said that the problem of obesity and diabetes has a foundation built in part...a large part...on the consumption of TOO MANY CARBS which leads to a hunger, carb eating cycle....over consumption of carbs at the advertisement and endorsement by the medical community that lowering fat intake will cause weight loss. The situation is compounded by the intake of high fructose corn sweeteners.
http://www.princeton.edu/main/news/archive/S26/91/22K07/

"Bread, cereals, grains, pasta, potatoes are not bad for you, do not cause hunger and will not make you fat if eaten in moderation."


Define "bad for you". White bread, for example, may not be bad for you...but there are better bread choices. Not all cereals are equal. It isn't meaningful to heap all carb sources into one big pile. And the definition of moderation is subject to the dietary mix of carbs, fat and protein AND the to the type of carb...simple or complex.
Frank Luke Aug 13, 2010, 12:51pm UTC
Yes Slim, it should be understood that comments submitted here are statements of opinion and not insist on their being absolute truth and can be challenged, no matter how strongly they're believed. Rebuttals and back-and-forths should also be civil, not dismissals and reasonalbly countered, not acrimonious shoot-outs.
Farmer Slim dancing barefoot in the mud Aug 13, 2010, 1:47pm UTC
Frank....

I kind of "went off''...not at what you had said, but as a result of some comments by some of Gather's history rewriters..in this case constitutional-revisionists who are melded to the outer surface of just past reality...growing like slimy mold on the imagination of ignorance....fed by the idiotic blabber of self anointed, bigoted sheeple herders...bah...bahbah....baaaaaah....and
comforted by their own hatred and insecurities.

Was that acrimonious?
Frank Luke Aug 14, 2010, 12:51pm UTC
Slim: I sometimes get on my high horse when something bothers me and later have second thought on how I could have said it better. But Obama seems to have a prob when he so diplomatically handles his crits and comes off sounding too conciliatory so there's that ability to make your point clearly and emphatically enough w/o sounding nasty or unnecessarity wrought.

Re: your comment above: "and the establishment STILL places grains and cereals as the foundation of our diets. "

Turning the vested interest big ships around is a real challenge but I think the rumble is starting to do that. America's health and obesity prob are the targets and the sugary drinks are a big factor though they deny it.

I try to mention it when I see moms putting soft drinks in their baby bottles, starting them down that obesity and diabetes path.

Best, FL

Farmer Slim dancing barefoot in the mud Aug 14, 2010, 1:15pm UTC
Frank, I have a personal motto I would like to share with you.

I sometimes regret speaking my mind, but I always regret not speaking my mind.

Few people have to guess at my position or opinion. Even if I later think I could have presented my thoughts better...I never regret having having spoken rather than remaining silent.
Farmer Slim dancing barefoot in the mud Aug 14, 2010, 1:19pm UTC
Regarding the soft drinks and babies....the fruit juices are just as bad....some are worse and all are worse if the parent doesn't understand the dangers of high fructose intake....meaning that often the assumption is that fruit drinks are healthful.
Jerry Kays Aug 14, 2010, 1:46pm UTC
BTW ... Truth is sill relative on this plane or in this realm of true reality ... as are facts. Except for the closed minded of course.
aniko    Aug 14, 2010, 2:52pm UTC
Slim:

"Yes Aniko...I am clear about people changing what they believe. Are you clear about the beliefs themselves remaining the same? If a person throws away an apple and gets a pear instead...the apple is STILL an apple."

I'm very clear on that, and my point has been all this time that this is true both for ideas we call "religious belief" and for ideas we call "scientific belief". In other words, the distinction is not seen at that level, either. You said "religious belief" doesn't change, but "science" changes, but that's not comparing things that are at the same level. (I could ask "Are you clear about that?" if I used phrases like that.) :)

"You said that 'Jesus is the Savior' is a specific religious belief. Those who throw this apple away and choose a pear can't do so and remain Christians because this specific religious belief is the foundation of that particular religious group. They may still remain religious, but won't be the same kind of apple.


They may still remain religious, but won't be the same kind of apple.

Then you said that HIV causes AIDS is a specific scientific belief. Yes it is, but the scientist may disregard or change his mind about this belief...and still be a scientist. He doesn't HAVE to believe that HIV causes AIDS in order to be a scientist.

That is exactly why it isn't analogous to and and doesn't line up with "Jesus is the Savior". :-)"


That's a reasonable point, but it is about the specific example, and it doesn't dismiss what I was saying. I could have (perhaps should have) used a more specific religious belief--let's say, transubstantiation. (Or a more general scientific one--viruses can cause disease.) But the sense in which I presented those beliefs as being analogous and at the same level was in terms of their ability to be kept or discarded by the individual, and in their inability to change themselves, not in how their discarding would affect one's "membership" at a higher level--and those points stand unchallenged by what you're presenting here. "Change" or "no change" at the higher level is another issue, and it takes place at that level, not at the lower one. And we already agreed (I think) that both particular religions and particular scientific theories do change.


We can have a look at what happens at the "particular religion" level, but with the caveat that defining the "apple" in this case is not as simple as identifying a particular belief as such. A religion is more like fruit salad than a particular fruit, and everyone does not agree on the ingredients and what still qualifies to use the name. There are no objective criteria here. People do claim to be Christian without holding a firm, well-defined, and exclusive belief in salvation through Jesus. (That's part of Christianity itself changing, and is a relevant phenomenon here even if many Christians will not accept such people as Christians.) And of course, there are Protestants who think Catholics aren't Christians, and vice versa, not to mention other groups whose membership is quite frequently questioned.
libramoon .. Aug 14, 2010, 3:37pm UTC
In the Details

Beauty lives in curves
and correlations,
simple intricacies
fitting frame to frame,
the potency of exactly
naming
demons and destinies
Transformed,
daily meditations
reach heights of ecstasy;
practice becomes mastery

Beauty must disturb
send waves displaying
meaning into neural crevices
thus saying:
Stay deeply in
this brief eternity ...

September 9, 2009
Farmer Slim dancing barefoot in the mud Aug 14, 2010, 4:17pm UTC
Aniko...

Persons of faith claim what they believe is the truth...non provisional....EVEN IF at some point in the future, they change their minds. WHILE they believe a specific point of religion...they believe that point to be the truth...the non provisional and non changing truth.

Scientists will tell you that every concept of science is provisional....even for those concepts that they DO NOT or have not changed their minds...the concepts are still provisional.



aniko    Aug 14, 2010, 8:16pm UTC
"Persons of faith" and "scientists" can be the same people, Slim, but I think you may be getting closer to the difference that does exist--it's about what people say :)

Seriously, though, I've heard believers say that if such and such were to happen, they would give up their faith. I have of course also heard people say that nothing could happen take away their faith. You're right that when "talking science", people rarely admit that a particular idea is non-negotiable--if they know they're not supposed to. (You can find many comments on Gather in which people present scientific ideas they've heard about without that understanding.) Scientists, of course, invariably understand this, and will say the right thing, but their behavior often indicates otherwise. In other words, in practice, in what people actually do, the difference is not quite obvious. There are reformers and challengers and conservatives and dinosaurs in both religion and science.

Here's a question: do you believe life is worth living?
Farmer Slim dancing barefoot in the mud Aug 15, 2010, 3:53pm UTC
Aniko...

em>"it's about what people say."

I think so...in general. But still, religious concepts are presented as non provisional....and even if those who say that hold a religious belief as non provisional...but act otherwise or hold doubts about the belief...they have adopted the belief that is presented as non provisional.


"do you believe life is worth living? "


Do you mean "do our lives have meaning"? (Is this the same question?...I don't think it is)

Aristotle believed that one's life is worth living if he is able to make his own decisions and choose his own actions. None of us are totally free in this respect...but the pursuit of unobstructed freedom is important I believe. There are exceptions and the exceptions are dependent upon the individual's personal outlook and method of dealing with the limitations that are imposed on his freedoms. Nelson Mandala comes to mind.

The flaws in Aristotle's definition of a life worth living..'a good life' are striking. Aristotle also believed that a life worth living must be a virtuous one....which means that a life worth living is defined not by the individual, but by others. I find this rather disturbing because the definition of one's contentment can't be decided by others.

I believe the purpose of life is to be happy....kind of Buddhismish. Emerson believed the purpose of life is to be useful and compassionate. I think that being happy doesn't have to include being useful and compassionate.

But all of the inspections into the worth of life are subject to the measurements of the here and now...by that which is valuable only to us, mankind, inhabitants of one insignificant speck of a planet in a comparatively small galaxy..one of billions, perhaps trillions or more galaxies in this universe....a universe which may be one an endless series of galaxies that have come and gone...and will come and be gone.

We have contributed nothing that will add to or distract from the natural progression of....the fate of this universe.

So..."is life worth living?"...it is to me.

"Do our lives have meaning?"...not one iota to any other than to ourselves and to the inhabitants of this place and this time.
aniko    Aug 16, 2010, 12:05am UTC
Slim, what's the difference between what people say and how religion is presented? Who is this mysterious entity that's the agent of your passive sentence and whose action firmly defines religion one way rather than the other, while "what people" say can go either way?

Thanks for the response. (And no, as you say, it's not the same question.) I'm aware that there are different things--freedom, happiness, being helpful, etc.--that people will name as necessary to make life worth living. What is of interest to me here is not these components, but the basic idea that it is. Where does that come from? Is it a rational idea? How?
Farmer Slim dancing barefoot in the mud Aug 16, 2010, 8:08am UTC
Catholicism says that a non provisional component of the Catholic religion is the death and resurrection of Jesus....without the truth of this occurrence...there can be no Catholic religion.

from the Catholic Catechism...651
"If Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain." (1 Cor 15:14) The Resurrection above all constitutes the confirmation of all Christ's works and teachings. All truths, even those most inaccessible to human reason, find their justification if Christ by his Resurrection has given the definitive proof of his divine authority, which he had promised.

The belief of the death and resurrection of Jesus is presented by the Catholic Church, and by other churches, as non contestable..non questionable....the "proof of his divine authority".

Person "A" SAYS he believes this event actually occurred. The expression of his belief is the only way in which his belief can be conveyed to others. At some point, person A changes his mind and SAYS he no longer believes that Jesus arose form the dead. Again...he is telling others what he believes....but it is not what he previously believed. BUT...the Catholic church still defines its tenet as based upon the death and resurrection of Jesus as the truth...the unquestioned and non provisional truth.

The "mysterious entity", and it IS damn mysterious...is the church. Each church defines (action) the religion it represents "one way or the other". Those definitions are specific and many of them are crucial to the ability of a church to actually exist.

But then you know all this. I'm curious as to why you are continuing to pick away at this subject.

"I'm aware that there are different things--freedom, happiness, being helpful, etc.--that people will name as necessary to make life worth living. What is of interest to me here is not these components, but the basic idea that it is. Where does that come from? Is it a rational idea? How? "

The basic idea that life can be evaluated as worth living or not comes from us....and is probably exclusive to man..assuming we agree not to speculate on the existence of "intelligent" life on other planets...whose level of conscientiousness allows for the action of this consideration.

I don't believe that this evaluation of life's worth is in itself, rational or not rational. How can the rationality be measured? Wouldn't this be a matter of feeling rather than a matter for reason? Wouldn't this be purely subjective?
Jerry Kays Aug 17, 2010, 5:24pm UTC
The difference between the objective considerations and the subjective considerations is the difference between objective exoteric orthodox religion and subjective esoteric and mystical spirituality ...

The first relates foremost to physicality as manifested and experienced in the 5 objective senses ... such as the "resurrection" of Jesus (the Christ) ... believed by them to be an event concerning the "body" ...

The latter being the belief in the essence of the person being the Spiritual Soul, that which entered the body sometime after conception and which leaves the body upon physical death, it being the eternal nature of the personal experience of the being, Christ (a title for those so Spiritually qualified), or any of us so knowing of the truth of our relationship to GOD and thus eternity ... the resurrection is the return of the Soul to it's source ... has nothing to do with the dead and decaying body.

IMnsHO
Jerry Kays Aug 17, 2010, 5:37pm UTC
As to whether life is worth living or not ... pretty much has to be an subjective consideration of most importance to the being asking the question ... yet down the line of possibly lessor importance's would be the concern of those countless others that your life has impacted in some way great and small ... each such encounter possibly having had an impact on other(s) even of a maximum nature by their subjective standards ...

Of course only a supreme eternal intelligence could know for sure about any such interactions and lasting results as well as the importance ... thus one who has no belief nor concern for eternal matters will most likely hold a different opinion about that than would a person who had the "faith" in the eternal ... IMnsHO
aniko    Aug 18, 2010, 12:56am UTC
Slim,


"The "mysterious entity", and it IS damn mysterious...is the church. Each church defines (action) the religion it represents "one way or the other". Those definitions are specific and many of them are crucial to the ability of a church to actually exist.

But then you know all this. I'm curious as to why you are continuing to pick away at this subject. "



Thanks, Slim. We did get somewhere after all--we clarified that when you're talking about what "religion" says, does, is like, you mean what the officials of a church say.

No, I did not know this. You may remember me saying, many times, in fact, that religion is an awfully complex phenomenon that includes so many different and disparate things that it's difficult to make generalized statements about it. I meant the sum total of the religious experience of humankind, not the catechism of the Catholic Church--that's fairly easy to describe. No wonder we didn't understand each other. :)

(What happens with other religions, though? Who defines Islam? Judaism? Buddhism? Is every human activity to be viewed in this top-down, "officialdom defines" way, or is this reserved for religion?)

Of course you're right that without the belief in the resurrection, there's no Catholic religion. I think we covered that. Without a belief in microbes causing diseases, there's no germ theory of disease.

I continue to "pick away at this subject" because I disagree with your generalizations. I don't believe they describe the complexity of human experience. And because I was told I should express my thoughts here instead of saying "we've discussed this before".

I agree that the question of whether life is worth living is not a rational one. That was my point--the existence of beliefs held ("felt", if you will) fairly firmly and non-provisionally that are outside of "logic" or "reason".
Farmer Slim dancing barefoot in the mud Aug 18, 2010, 6:33am UTC
It isn't a generalization to say that each religion has its non negotiable tenets. It's NOT what the church officials say...it's the reasons that they say what they say.

"(What happens with other religions, though? Who defines Islam? Judaism? Buddhism? Is every human activity to be viewed in this top-down, "officialdom defines" way, or is this reserved for religion?)"

All religions are defined by the basic concepts on which they are founded. Each religion's definition is built on a foundation or core belief. The "officialdom" don't define...they do interpret and describe the specifics of their religions, but they are acting on core beliefs that, if changed or redefined, would also change their religions. Certainly religions had a top/down beginning...but once the core beliefs are established....they cannot be contested.

I agree that the question of whether life is worth living is not a rational one. That was my point--the existence of beliefs held ("felt", if you will) fairly firmly and non-provisionally that are outside of "logic" or "reason".

First point...I didn't say that "the question of whether life is worth living is not a rational one."...although the question itself is rational. I said: "I don't believe that this evaluation of life's worth is in itself, rational or not rational. How can the rationality be measured? Wouldn't this be a matter of feeling rather than a matter for reason? Wouldn't this be purely subjective?"

Second point...NOW you agree that certain beliefs are non provisional. But this doesn't validate these beliefs as being worthwhile if they are outside of logic or reason. Is it worthwhile to believe that stepping on a crack will break your grandmother's back? While crossing one's fingers REALLY help win the lottery....should we take another path if a black cat crosses ours?

What is the difference a religious conviction and any other superstition? What is the value of believing in miracles, heaven and hell, prayer, charms and omens? The fact that these beliefs exist has no determining factor on their value.

aniko    Aug 19, 2010, 2:18am UTC
Slim, my points here are relative to your original claim that stated that the provisional vs. non-provisional nature of beliefs was a major distinguishing factor between religion and science. (I think that's a fair paraphrase--let me know if it isn't.) If you keep telling me about religion only and do not respond to the parallels I provide on the science side of the comparison, you are not dealing with my challenge to your thesis.

"It isn't a generalization to say that each religion has its non negotiable tenets."

and

"All religions are defined by the basic concepts on which they are founded. Each religion's definition is built on a foundation or core belief."


If you look at everything that has been called "religion", and the actual religious experiences of human beings, the picture is a lot more fluid than that. As your own language suggests, what counts as "X religion" is a definitional issue--and not everyone uses the same definitions or draws the same lines. In your previous comment you said the "churches" are the mysterious entities that get to tell what the non-negotiable beliefs are. Now you say they aren't--they just interpret these unchanging core tenets that the religions were founded on. (My point was that the "founding" of a religion--or any new cultural trend--is usually not a top down process, by the way, but the opposite.) I can only repeat what has been covered before. While there are many people calling themselves Christian who do not believe in the resurrection in a literal sense, let's accept for now the claim of most churches that this is an indispensable, core belief. A believer loses this belief--he's no longer a Christian--but he might still be a theist. What happens to an oncologist who loses the belief that her treatments for tumors work? Is she still an oncologist? How about scientist?

But we can go back and forth and draw and redraw lines for these categories and get whatever we want. These are mental constructs, not real physical things. The real entities here are the humans beings who hold beliefs, religious and nonreligious ones. We've already agreed that both kinds of beliefs get examined and can be adopted or discarded. People don't believe religious propositions differently from scientific ones in this respect. (My thesis here.)

"First point...I didn't say that "the question of whether life is worth living is not a rational one."...although the question itself is rational. I said: "I don't believe that this evaluation of life's worth is in itself, rational or not rational. How can the rationality be measured? Wouldn't this be a matter of feeling rather than a matter for reason? Wouldn't this be purely subjective?"


If the answer can't be rational, then I'd say the question isn't, either--you'd have to explain how it is. Otherwise we agree--though the "subjective" answer that life is worth living (or, if you will, that living is better than not living) seems to be hard-wired into most humans.

"NOW you agree that certain beliefs are non provisional."

Only in the sense you use the term. Ultimately, this belief is provisional, too--people abandon it all the time. It would be better to say that it's foundational (for most).

"But this doesn't validate these beliefs as being worthwhile if they are outside of logic or reason."

I'm not arguing that "all beliefs are worthwhile if they're outside of logic and reason". I'm arguing that there are beliefs that are "worthwhile" even though they're outside of logic and reason. Let me give some other examples (again): the belief that the universe exists. That it has consistent features. That it's knowable at some level to us. That logic exists. That it is a "worthwhile" thing. That "worthwhile" is something "good"... We can't prove any of these things logically, yet we're unlikely to tell someone who holds them true that they've "given up on reason".

Oh, the superstition question. I'm not sure most of those are outside logic (they're easy to falsify), but as I said above, I'm not arguing that all beliefs that are not logical should be accepted. I'm saying that some beliefs that are not logical are, and practically must be, accepted--they're foundational beliefs.

(I note that it's assumed by your question that religious convictions are a form of superstition, but this is not shown anywhere.)


"The fact that these beliefs exist has no determining factor on their value."


Of course not. (Who said it did?)
Frank Luke Aug 19, 2010, 1:02pm UTC
Slim, belatedly picking up on infants given sugary stuff in their bottles:

It's not that fruit juices are bad though they are full of sugar. What's the bugaboo is that that sugar is what causes tooth decay. It's common to feel baby teeth aren't important but that sets it up that the adult set gets affected when the baby teeth have to be pulled out. What's needed is oral hygiene, how to brush and floss properly and conscientiously. Dentists want folks to have dental probs and our schools don't seem to feel they have time for dental care, as I remember from my school days. Tooth decay and negligent dental health can affect general health in serious ways, even cause (whisper) death, if it comes to that.
Frank Luke Aug 24, 2010, 12:57pm UTC
Slim, picking up this thread re: "But none of the proponents of relative or personal truths have been able to rectify the issue of non contradiction."

Western thinking re: truth has the seeming obligation to carve it forever
in stone whereas I think it's more where it's at to consider all thinking as brainstorming, hoping in humanity's concerted efforts to come to understanding.

What I think is left out of most if not all of the thinking of truth is taking into account that though it's wished that the presentation of truth would be immutable and good for all time, that the element of time and change is not taken into account sufficiently. It's a fact of existence that change is inevitable and though a "truth" may have a long run and currency, eventually change will affect human perception of that viewpoint and the truth will be trumped by new discoveries and thinking. Truth marches on, hand in hand with Change and Time.
Farmer Slim dancing barefoot in the mud Aug 24, 2010, 2:24pm UTC
Frank...

If a "truth" turns out to be "not a truth"...some concept we value as a truth or believe to be a truth isn't really a truth...the mistake is ours....truths don't change. Our perceptions of truths change.

You hit this point and them leave it. (It's a fact of existence that change is inevitable and though a "truth" may have a long run and currency, eventually change will affect human perception of that viewpoint and the truth will be trumped by new discoveries and thinking.)

Human perception, viewpoints, opinions...do not NECESSARILY reflect the truth. Sometimes we get it right...some times we find (new discoveries and thinking) that we had it wrong. This doesn't mean that we were right for a while....it means that we didn't really know the truth....we just thought we did.

Farmer Slim dancing barefoot in the mud Aug 24, 2010, 2:47pm UTC
The statement I made..."But none of the proponents of relative or personal truths have been able to rectify the issue of non contradiction." meant that there can't really be any personal truths...truths that only apply to the individual.

Let's argue that I believe a supreme being exists. If I say that the existence of a supreme being is true...it is a truth for me...either I am right...there is a supreme being..or I am wrong...there is no supreme being. But my belief has nothing to do with the existence or not, of a supreme being.

A supreme being cannot exist and not exist at the same time. This is the law of non contradiction that I spoke of and this is the barrier that all who claim personal truths or relative truths face.

For example...Sy confuses truth with opinion. He said that he really loves the art of a certain painter...therefore, for him he claims, his personal truth is that the art of this painter is beautiful. What he has said when he states that he loves the art of this painter IS TRUE...unless he is lying. But this doesn't make the art beautiful for others because likes and dislikes are subjective. There is no truth in the purely subjective....it's all opinion.
Jerry Kays Aug 24, 2010, 3:16pm UTC
There is no truth in the purely subjective....it's all opinion. The truth is what you said above ... to you ... your opinion of truth ... relative truth ... opinions are subjective as are truths ... my truths are as valid as your truths ...
Farmer Slim dancing barefoot in the mud Aug 24, 2010, 5:49pm UTC
Thanks for your support of this Bent.
Jerry Kays Aug 25, 2010, 1:00am UTC
Bent, as usual, I am too dense to understand your metaphor ... if you disagree with me that truth can be relative ... how about just saying so ... and then giving the proof to back up your assertion ... I have many times backed up mine.
Jerry Kays Aug 25, 2010, 1:06am UTC
Slim: Let's argue that I believe a supreme being exists. If I say that the existence of a supreme being is true...it is a truth for me...either I am right...there is a supreme being..or I am wrong...there is no supreme being. But my belief has nothing to do with the existence or not, of a supreme being.

A supreme being cannot exist and not exist at the same time. This is the law of non contradiction that I spoke of and this is the barrier that all who claim personal truths or relative truths face.


If I honestly believe that a Supreme Being exists for me then that is my truth ... and if you say otherwise and honestly believe it, that can be your truth ... there is no way that you can prove differently to convince me otherwise ... contradiction(s) or not ... such statements are but "your" rules ... not mine.
Jerry Kays Aug 25, 2010, 1:10am UTC
PS ... if I say that truth is relative, in that I can have mine and you can have yours, then I am "liberal" about such things ... if you maintain your position as stated so far, then you are very "conservative" ... IMnsHO
Jerry Kays Aug 25, 2010, 1:15am UTC
PPS ... my Truth is the BET (+=-) ... I fully understand that others, especially Slim would completely disagree ... but they would have a hell of a time proving otherwise to me.
Jerry Kays Aug 25, 2010, 1:30am UTC
Bent, your concern for hierarchy is but a "world view", that of corrupted (fallen) hierarchies in competition ...

Those are akin to the inverted triangle I have often explained denoting the world condition ... (think Star of David) ... where the super-imposed, yet reversed triangle, denotes GOD's hierarchy ...

With GOD there is but ONE over-all ... probably consisting of infinite others that are all subordinate to and agreeably answering to the apex ... apex of Truth and UNconditional Love ... all parts and pieces sharing that goal in UNIty and UNIson (Harmony) ... no secrets.

That of the world condition though, tells lies routinely, uses the secret for advantage, divides the base into (+/-) for control while they stay secretly (=) at their apex using the base against each other in secret ...

One a world view and condition and the other the BET (+=-) ... IMnsHO
Jerry Kays Aug 25, 2010, 1:52am UTC
I suggest that we speak of apples and apples. or at least stay in the fruit category ... I am not relating my views with the Nazis and do not think that you should make those implications either ...
Jerry Kays Aug 25, 2010, 2:00am UTC
Bent,I recently got your message via G-mail and I intend to fully reply ASAP (my own computer is in the shop now and I am borrowing another) ... so when I get mine back with it's addresses intact, I will do that ...

Meanwhile, I still desire to discuss these issues in an open forum ... even realizing that you seem to think that you will embarrass me by doing so ... but I highly doubt it because I am quite confident in where I am coming from concerning the issues I write about here ... I will take my chances ... if ... and when ... as I said before ... you don't just overwhelm me with extreme amounts of links and studies as you often do here ...
Jerry Kays Aug 25, 2010, 2:09am UTC
PS ... from what you told me in a previous episode of LYR - that you'd wanted to discuss some of this more privately.

Bent, I see that statement as attempting to "color" my views different than we both know they are ... the "private" suggestion/warning(?) was yours and I turned it down at the time explaining basically just what I already said here ... eventually admitting that maybe it should be private because the way you lay things out (in excess often, IMnsHO) that it would be both very boring and unfair to the other LYR readers to hash out in front of them ... I just sort of agreed for a moment with you ... but no longer do I.
Jerry Kays Aug 25, 2010, 2:14am UTC
and I know that you type very fast ... I type very slow and then attempt a spell check ... our overlaps (cross-posting) are evident to me here, probably confusing to others also, if not to us ... probably a decided disadvantage to my communicating here.
Jerry Kays Aug 25, 2010, 2:19am UTC
I wrote a book about my views, I stand behind that ... I have many articles here on Gather also explaining my views ... they are very simple really ... GOD, God, and god(s) has been an ongoing theme with me, I have virtually countless comments on all of this ... it is not wise to assume that your or another's definition and understanding of such words and concepts are the same as mine ... if I am to be criticised for mine it should be done with at least an attempt by others to understand it/them.
Jerry Kays Aug 25, 2010, 2:22am UTC
We could do that separate post idea I suppose, I will let you instigate it being as how it was your idea ... or we could just do it here as long as this stays open, I doubt if any others are involved here at this late stage ... shouldn't inconvenience anyone.
Jerry Kays Aug 25, 2010, 2:26am UTC
I also can probably handle the cross-posting ... but I question if it is all worth it if other readers cannot ... as I have so often said in the past, I write here for all readers, it is not a personal ego issue with me ... the main reason that I have not wanted to go "private" it being a waste of my time when I prefer to get the message out widely ... probably another reason to have our own article ... this being ignored by now.
Jerry Kays Aug 25, 2010, 2:31am UTC
Another potential problem though could be our differing hours and "work" loads ... I have health issues that I take pills for, including sleeping pills like right now (an hour ago) so I can get to sleep with some severe back pain ... and I spend the busy evening hours here visiting with my wife, only getting to this (Gather) late (after midnite here now) ... but, whatever ...
Jerry Kays Aug 25, 2010, 2:38am UTC
My book is more about "Perennial Philosophy-Wisdom" than ever-changing science ... it is timeless !

As I have already indicated many times, Slim has his "objective rules of rationality" and the church has it's dogma and creed ... my concepts fit neither and I will not pretend that they do ... it is way past time for a new paradigm shift on this planet ... just as the word "perfect" needs revision ... the working rules of the last 2,000 years have not been getting us where we should and could be ... IMnsHO (which goes without saying by now).
Jerry Kays Aug 25, 2010, 2:50am UTC
As I said, I doubt that our interchange here this late in the game has any bearing on the author ... we could always ask him or her ... as I also say, it is not so much an ego issue with me as it is obstruction of my spiritual mission-message ... my soul-sole purpose in life right now ...

And in conjunction with that, as I have said before also, personally ... personally is the message for others, their specific persons ... and in keeping with that, when they are more objective and maybe needing the subjective message of mine, I prefer that I get at least equal time with you who they most all better understand and look up to because you are so well schooled and both intelligent and wise ... obviously ... to everyone ... thus I prefer to not be criticised by one such as you ... unless it is done fairly and taking the views of all into proper consideration ... I can consider the source(s) usually, I get a lot of criticism from people who know not what they are talking about, they are easy to dismiss ... you on the other hand cannot be dismissed ... and I would not want to do so IF you were fair about it all ... I ramble, too sleepy ...
aniko    Aug 25, 2010, 2:54am UTC
Bent, regarding your 7:08pm comment, I agree that it's just like every other hierarchy--and people listen or don't listen to the "lamas" in the same way. People do a variety of things, from following authority to adopting popular (but not officially approved) memes all the way to thinking and evaluating things for themselves. Assuming that someone who is formally part of a religion believes exactly what the high muckamucks say is not a realistic view of human behavior. (Some of those religions are a less hierarchically organized than others, of course.)

As for the dividing vs. uniting power of religion, we're continually seeing examples for both of those things happening within all religions. I'm guessing it depends on the person's inclinations. (If you have links to those studies, I'd like to look at them.)
Jerry Kays Aug 25, 2010, 2:54am UTC
I am comfortable working within Platonic and Aristotelian concepts ... I am not at all comfortable fitting into orthodox Psychology ... I deal in and with Transpersonal Psychology ...
Farmer Slim dancing barefoot in the mud Aug 25, 2010, 7:22am UTC
Jerry...

Bent's linked article about relative truth was one of the best at explaining truth vs relative truth that I have seen. I hope you read it. I case you didn't, I'm posting the "Gravity Test' for you.

" A great test for relative or subjective truth is the “Gravity Test”. To administer this test one climbs to a high tower such as the Eiffel Tower. If the holder of subjective truth, believes he/she can fly, and since truth is subject to our beliefs then the person should be able to fly. Once the person jumps away from the tower the test begins. They will fly or fall. If they fly without aid then subjective truth is true if they fall and connect with the ground then objective truth is true. Those on the ground will witnesses “Correspondece”. If the person flies then subjective truth will correspond to reality (The flight being real). If the person falls objective truth will correspond to reality. (Gravity being real)"

Jerry... How many legs does a dog have if you call the tail a leg? Four. Calling a tail a leg doesn't make it a leg. (Abraham Lincoln)

Jerry Kays Aug 25, 2010, 10:11am UTC
OK, Bent and Slim ... I went and read (over half of it) until I decided that it was something like a strawman set-up ... especially in being Christian Apologetics (as stated there).

When the author said that Jesus said; "I am the Truth and the way ... through me one gets to the Father" (paraphrased somewhat) ... he blew his validity because I have another "take" on that ... assuming that he even said it ... which I seriously question in the first place ...

The examples given, such as the "gravity test" are just silly to me, as if I were going to insist that my truth was that I could fly ... besides, IF that were my truth it would be my truth in my mind because I sought truth and believed it to be so ... if the "flight" failed, then I would have had to change my truth ...

Those "other" laws mentioned are also incomplete by "my" standards, at least the one about no middle ... that is strictly dualistic (+/-) and does not account for spiritual (subjective) truth ... IMnsHO.


So, as for Aristotle and his views, I can only assume that either he has some that I can go along with, and that possibly the author of that link looked at them similar to how he looked at the words of Jesus ... IE, differently than I might ... thus I will not base my whole reality on either Jesus or Arisstotle as one other person might read, believe and define them ... there are "other" views of the same subjects I imagine ... and I honestly do not want, nor intend, to study either as a base for my reality and/or concepts ... sorry ... I base mine on my belief concerning my GOD ... and ...

And just because others claim a GOD, God or god(s) with their own beliefs associated, does not invalidate mine ... (my truths) ... just as mine do not invalidate theirs ... until such time as one of us changes our mind.

IMnsHO


I have been through all of this so many times before and nothing much has changed here on this end ... these examples of what Nazis do and think actually have no bearing what-so-ever on what I do and think ... to use the worst case examples to compare the best case examples with as a means of disqualifying the best is not being very honest ... it seems to me.
Farmer Slim dancing barefoot in the mud Aug 25, 2010, 1:42pm UTC
Jerry..

Regarding the gravity test...

The examples given, such as the "gravity test" are just silly to me, as if I were going to insist that my truth was that I could fly ... besides, IF that were my truth it would be my truth in my mind because I sought truth and believed it to be so ... if the "flight" failed, then I would have had to change my truth ...

Of course you wouldn't insist that you can fly...but the concept is the same, regardless of the example. If you believe something to be true...and later find out that you were wrong...your belief wasn't true. You wouldn't have to change the truth...you can't change the truth. You would have to change your concept of the truth...change your opinion.

For the life of me...I can't understand why you cannot or will not take grasp of the difference between opinion and truth.

"And just because others claim a GOD, God or god(s) with their own beliefs associated, does not invalidate mine ... (my truths) ... just as mine do not invalidate theirs ... until such time as one of us changes our mind."

We aren't talking about invalidation Jerry. But you hit the nail on the head when you used the word "beliefs"....beliefs aren't necessarily truths. Beliefs MAY be true...but may not. Another person's beliefs have nothing to do with the truth or not of yours and your beliefs have nothing to do with the truth or not of theirs.

Do you not see a difference in opinion and truth? If you do...please describe it. If you don't see a difference....you have embraced a reality in which nothing is true and nothing is not true and everything is true and everything is not true. This is not possible.

Jerry Kays Aug 25, 2010, 3:24pm UTC
Slim, just maybe that is my reality ... the one that you would say is not possible ... one where with GOD anything is possible ...(?)

A reality where everything is change and the only real reality is thus that at the moment perceived ... and every known perception differs in at least space if not time ...

Where the present apparent reality (your view even, if you would look back far enough) has been built from scratch (some call it the Big Bang) moment by moment where at some original time and space beginning with two humans, they agreed on something for the sake of a beginning basis of further communication around a commonality ... maybe that they were each a separate ego, maybe that time consisted of this or that measurement, something similar for space ... they called those agreements "their facts" ... and eventually their truth(s) when took for granted long enough ... such as 1+1=2 ... and +=+ and -=- IE; (+/-)


Thus we have the world view, the basis of our shared (when we agree) reality ...


I have since had an experience that has changed my mind on those things, I now look at them different than you do, I have experienced the subjectivity of GOD and that has even had objective results with me ... it has shown me new truths, forget mere facts, rare as it is, I even share some of those truths with others who have had similar experience(s) ...

One "new truth" to me is that I no longer base my life and being, around only an egoic view of separation ... I now believe (and thus it is both my opinion and enough truth that I would stake my very life on it) that I am related to each and everyone else here through the commonality of the Spirit of GOD (I have already very simply described what said GOD amounts to, in part, enough to satisfy me for now)(That being highest UNIversal Truth and UNconditional Love) ...

That "commonality" to me is True ... is defined by the BET (+=-) and works to my satisfaction ...

I do not insist that others see it my way, I suggest to them that it would be to their and everyone's advantage if they did ... but by the same token, (+=-), to each their own ... even (+/-) if that be their preference ...


Now, other than seemingly challenging (in your mind) your reality, what is the problem with me having mine (?)
Jerry Kays Aug 25, 2010, 3:53pm UTC
PS ... as for the difference, in my mind, between opinion and truth ... one is lightly held and subject to change ... the other is held much stronger ... though also subject to change ... there is nothing that is not subject to change ... IMnsHO
Farmer Slim dancing barefoot in the mud Aug 25, 2010, 4:12pm UTC
The truth is not subject to change.
Jerry Kays Aug 25, 2010, 4:15pm UTC
Mine is ... :-)
Farmer Slim dancing barefoot in the mud Aug 25, 2010, 4:21pm UTC
I Know.....
:-)
Jerry Kays Aug 25, 2010, 5:20pm UTC
And back to that gravity test ... just to keep the subject going ... if the person attempting to fly is spiritual enough to be balanced in thought and deed ... they will know that their Soul is who they really are ... not their body ...

Thus, as Jesus was "resurrected", their Soul, their essence of being, will in fact soar ... it being the objective body that crashes to ground and physical death ... the subjective spiritual is eternal ... and thus part from the body prior to the crush ...

At least that is my truth, opinion and belief ... preferring to think that I share those facts with others also ... especially with GOD.

To insist that there is no transcendence in knowledge and wisdom about such things, thinking and actual experience ... would be akin to a young virgin adolescent, in being told by an older experienced being that some day they might experience a sexual orgasm, absolutely love it, and maybe even create a child from it ... they would deny the possibility even ... because it was just too far from their experience so far to be at all believable ...

IMnsHO.
Farmer Slim dancing barefoot in the mud Aug 25, 2010, 7:03pm UTC
Jerry...

You have just pissed me off to the limit. I'll just hold my tongue and speak when I cool off.
Jerry Kays Aug 25, 2010, 7:54pm UTC
Well, Slim has not yet explained what is bothering him ... so I await that. As for you Bent, I also await a clearer explanation ... try and be straight forward please ...
Farmer Slim dancing barefoot in the mud Aug 25, 2010, 8:11pm UTC
I'll give you straight forward Jerry.

"To insist that there is no transcendence in knowledge and wisdom about such things, thinking and actual experience ... would be akin to a young virgin adolescent, in being told by an older experienced being that some day they might experience a sexual orgasm, absolutely love it, and maybe even create a child from it ... they would deny the possibility even ... because it was just too far from their experience so far to be at all believable ...



What a fucking crock of shit. You have no more insight, due to your "transcendental experiences" than any other person and with the brand of logic you wield...your wisdom is questionable at best. What a god damned smug ass, self serving frame of mind. To suggest that your insight is superior to mine or any other persons is the epitome of condescendence. You make crap up and call it "enlightenment" or "special knowledge" or "personal truths"...bull shit...BULL SHIT.
Jerry Kays Aug 25, 2010, 8:20pm UTC
Slim, facts are facts and truths are truths and it is your ego speaking here it's raw emotion ... I cannot really sugar coat it any other way ... you are ignorant of what you have missed and believe yourself to be special enough to think that there could be no better ... sorry about your attitude.
Jerry Kays Aug 25, 2010, 8:24pm UTC
Bent, I Wikied Alice Miller, the only thing that I can come up with is that you somehow must be connecting me and and my views with your own life experiences ... I see no connection what-so-ever ...
Farmer Slim dancing barefoot in the mud Aug 25, 2010, 8:45pm UTC
That's just it Jerry...as far as you are concerned facts are not facts and truths are not truths....they are only facts and truths if YOU say so. Don't be sorry for my attitude....be concerned with your own twisted concept of reality...Jerry's world.
Jerry Kays Aug 25, 2010, 8:45pm UTC
PS ... Learning is a result of listening, which in turn leads to even better listening and attentiveness to the other person. In other words, to learn from the child, we must have empathy, and empathy grows as we learn.

Are you listening Bent (?)
Jerry Kays Aug 25, 2010, 8:48pm UTC
Slim, I guess it is all smiles as long as no one disagrees with you huh (?)
Jerry Kays Aug 25, 2010, 8:49pm UTC
PS ... Bent ... check yoy Gather mail, I did write to you hours ago ...
Farmer Slim dancing barefoot in the mud Aug 25, 2010, 9:01pm UTC
Disagreeing with me has nothing to do with it Jerry. Talking down to me does piss me off.
Jerry Kays Aug 25, 2010, 9:10pm UTC
I can tell Slim ... and we have been through this same thing before ... the talking down to you is just your own defensive ego position ... not intended to be so as much as you imagine ... but I do tend to rub the fact in when it happens to prove the point if nothing else. I have done that repeatedly with another here on Gather and that is why he hates me so much ... I guess it just goes with the territory sometimes.
Farmer Slim dancing barefoot in the mud Aug 25, 2010, 9:52pm UTC
You have never proved a point Jerry. You have never proved anything. You just speculate and call the speculation "inspired knowledge" or "special insight". In fact, you have confessed that your speculations (truths) can't stand up to logical criticism. It's all "transcendent knowledge"....beyond reality....beyond logic.

Jerry Kays Aug 25, 2010, 10:35pm UTC
Why am I not surprised here ... OK Bent, pile on, tell me how screwed up I am and how you know so much better ... I have sort of expected it coming all along.
Jerry Kays Aug 25, 2010, 10:57pm UTC
And for Slim, you got part of that right ... but not the part that you think.
Jerry Kays Aug 25, 2010, 11:00pm UTC
Bent, your personal issues are clashing with the common sense that what I propose is two things ... highest truth and unconditional love ... and if you can't find fault with that then attack the way I present it.

I have a very simple message and it is disingenuous for you to make it sound like I am looking for a cult following.
aniko    Aug 26, 2010, 2:33am UTC
(Bent, those were the studies I meant, thanks.)
Jerry Kays Aug 26, 2010, 12:26pm UTC
Bent, first off, you are transferring and redirecting your own hang-ups onto me ... and making unfounded accusations about me, my concepts and intentions.

You are insinuating that I have unseen and unaddressed "issues" in the darkness of my being ... because you claim that everyone does ... how you could be so sure of that also defies common sense ...do not attempt to transfer your reality onto others Bent.

Now you claim that you are not alone here in attempting to direct me into some insight ... well, I'll be ... but you have no great majority either that I know of who would say such things to me.

You send me a quote from some woman you admire about learning by listening to the children ... implying that I need to do so ... I respond by sending the same quote back to you asking if you were paying attention to the quotes potential application to yourself ... ignored by you as you repeat the quote back to me again ... childish (?) or are you a victim of your own lack of attentiveness via speed reading (?)


The next comment where I question your attempting to assign cult leader status to me ... gets me a spiel about how caring you have been for me in the past ... telling again about the expensive phone call made because you were concerned that you had hurt me ... you hadn't, I was not bothered, you could have saved your money ... but I do appreciate the concerns ... if genuine. I am looking at the big picture of our relationship Bent ... thus I begin to question your claimed sincerity throughout the whole time when you begin to act as you occasionally do ... making unsubstantiated implications using innuendo for the most part.

You now bring up past issues with a new twist on them, such as my emotional pleas to you to not do this or that ... either you didn't understand what the reasoning was, or you are spinning it now for effect ... because when it comes to my writing, I have told you that it is unedited because I did not have an editor who would work with me on my publishing deal ... and that if I had, I would have still written much as I did because I did not want some objective person attempting to change my subjective message into his version ... especially when any such attempt would destroy the hoped for effectiveness of my message.


Then, the next comment, with another disclaimer: Again, I'm not saying that this is the case. I have no direct knowledge. as you immediately continue suggesting that my motives and abilities suck ... this about unconditional love ... as if there is something wrong with the term and what it means just because it has been perverted before by others ... just like truth ... as if I were perverting them also ... .../ gee, thanks friend ... who needs enemies (?)
Jerry Kays Aug 26, 2010, 4:13pm UTC
Defenses are most often related to offenses ... sometimes needed for personal protection ... my life is transparent as much as I can keep it that way, there is no value that I can see in keeping related parts separate.
WM H. Aug 2, 2010, 3:24pm UTC
"Our brains absolutely require contact with the outside world, both social and natural, in order to function properly."

This may be backwards. It may be that reality requires consciousness.
Shira C. Aug 2, 2010, 3:25pm UTC
Might be. But I'm about 99.99999 sure of the version I put down, and the other looks to me like pure speculation.
libramoon .. Aug 3, 2010, 7:08pm UTC
Our brains have evolved in interaction, not in isolation. Our brains have evolved to enable more useful interaction with the environment. However, I don't know that individual brains could not operate well in isolation, though it would be hard to imagine a life devoid of interaction if only to obtain nutrients and such. We are not made to be self-sufficient, after all.
Jerry Kays Aug 5, 2010, 12:24pm UTC
Our brain is a "central" clearing house in between the objective outer world of our 5 sensory relationship ... and that of ... our mind which is our intuitive 6th sense subjective connection to the "inner" world of the quantum realm and spirit ... IMnsHO
Shira C. Aug 5, 2010, 12:54pm UTC
The more I do mindfulness practice, the more it seems to me that at every moment all the interactions in the universe combine somehow to determine the next moment. Cutting oneself off from that, or trying to, feels completely wrong.
Frank Luke Aug 10, 2010, 1:12pm UTC
Sllim, re: our comments seeming to be ignored, disregarded

It's something like ships passing in the night, or going up the escalator and others are headed down without acknowledging each other.

But maybe some have read and not acknowledged doing so, we're all so pre-empted and busy writing and our own affairs to pay attn sideways. And that some may have gotten something from your ideas and "get them" in delayed reaction. That's the hope of teachers and prophets.

Aloha!
Farmer Slim dancing barefoot in the mud Aug 11, 2010, 9:26pm UTC
And sometimes Frank...there is just nothing constructive for the reader to add to what has been said.
Frank Luke Aug 12, 2010, 12:36pm UTC
Slim: And have you noted that some here really try to get the last word in and won't let up. The best is to just to let things pass and not beat dead horses.
Jerry Kays Aug 14, 2010, 1:47pm UTC
I am letting this pass ... consider the last word yours Frank ... :-)
Frank Luke Aug 19, 2010, 12:53pm UTC
Slim, re: "there is just nothing constructive for the reader to add to what has been said. "

I can accept that but a kind supporting word of understanding, a "right-on" is very appreciated, when I'm getting the feeling at times of being ignored, that I waste my time.



libramoon .. Aug 2, 2010, 3:26pm UTC
http://innertraditions.blogspot.com/2010/07/krishna-his-relevance-today.html
SATURDAY, JULY 31, 2010
Krishna: His Relevance Today

Shira C. Aug 2, 2010, 3:32pm UTC
Interesting pov. I like the emphasis on uncritical acceptance of what is, as opposed to trying to force the world to be what we wish.
Jerry Kays Aug 2, 2010, 4:54pm UTC
What is seems to have two major different opinions ... that of subjectivity versus objectivity...
Shira C. Aug 2, 2010, 5:44pm UTC
"What is"?
Jerry Kays Aug 3, 2010, 3:00am UTC
Often the opposite of What we wish (?)
Shira C. Aug 3, 2010, 5:37pm UTC
Sorry, trying to parse your earlier comment: "What is seems to have two major different opinions... that of subjectivity vs. objectivity." Subjectivity is of enormous interest to me, and objectivity is a puzzling idea. (Can there be an objective viewpoint?)
libramoon .. Aug 3, 2010, 6:40pm UTC
I think we try to have an objective viewpoint by means of peer-reviewed science. Of course, the best we can do is try to find a consensus of specific situational subjective views.
Jerry Kays Aug 3, 2010, 7:36pm UTC
(Can there be an objective viewpoint?) I could answer but Slim could better :-)
Shira C. Aug 4, 2010, 7:08pm UTC
Libramoon, I think you hit it on the head. We can reduce idiosyncratic error. There may be an irreducible error having to do with differences between the ways all human brains represent reality and reality itself. Of course, such errors might also be impossible to detect so... We may never know!
Jerry Kays Aug 5, 2010, 12:33pm UTC
Because all is change, even what we come to know will eventually change into something we do not know ... the BET (+=-) dictates that for everything there must be an equal but opposite, therefore for every known there must exist a corresponding unknown.
Frank Luke Aug 10, 2010, 12:42pm UTC
Aniko: I saw a post from you on my homepage to that effect but as I mentioned, you intended to retract it. I think it was a response to Ann you hd second thoughts about.

Anyhoo, my comment in response to your un-comment was picked up by Slim. We both agree that though it sometimes feels like a waste of time blogging getting no response to comments we post at times protracted, we still think it's worthwhile because of the caveats I mentioned above.
aniko    Aug 14, 2010, 3:24pm UTC
Frank, I hate to be like this, but I cannot accept something I know is not true approximately at the same epistemic level as I know I exist because I'm thinking these thoughts. You could not have seen a post from me "to that effect", because I never said anything to that effect. I could theorize here that it was you who were thinking about all your posts that receive no answers, and all the disagreement you encounter, and you projected those thoughts into something you saw me (or perhaps someone else) say. But that's just a theory. What I can state is that I didn't say that, sorry. The issue, as presented by you, is not a concern for me.

You may be misunderstanding what I said to Slim (that we have already gone through particular discussions), but I never said anything here was "pointless" (I don't think of comments here as "blogging", incidentally), and I never "retracted" any of what I said on that thread.

The comment I did delete (immediately, so I don't expect it to have turned up in feeds, but people could have notifs for it) was something else (and, as I said, I'm not even sure if it was on this thread).

I'm glad you are working through your own feelings about "blogging", though, and I'm glad to see your comments here.
aniko    Aug 18, 2010, 12:21am UTC
(A kind correspondent sent me copies of all the notifications of my comments on this thread, and it turns out that none of them is the comment I mentioned as having deleted--so that was on another thread. Every comment I left here is still here (except for those immediately replaced by new versions with minor corrections).
Jerry Kays Aug 25, 2010, 5:05pm UTC
Libramoon, a great piece by Osho on Krishna ... wonderful truths !
Ann Marcaida Aug 2, 2010, 3:29pm UTC
Absolutely brilliant, Shira. It's privilege to hear from one who has read so much on this topic! (I imagine it took awhile to "cook" this article, and it shows!)
Ann Marcaida Aug 2, 2010, 3:30pm UTC
Featured on my Twitter account today.
Shira C. Aug 2, 2010, 3:33pm UTC
Wow. Thanks, Ann.

This is one that has been cooking a long time -- maybe my whole life. But once Ron asked his question, it pretty much snapped together and wrote itself.
Ann Marcaida Aug 2, 2010, 4:19pm UTC
Sadly, your three-day old posting date means this won't appear on the "Most Recommended" or "Most Discussed" lists, or the current friend feeds.
Shira C. Aug 2, 2010, 4:59pm UTC
ah, sorry. Well... when I'm working on one of these, I generally make it me-only until I think it's ready for prime time. I'll have to think about doing all the work in another program I guess.
Ann Marcaida Aug 2, 2010, 5:17pm UTC
All you have to do it copy and paste into a new article when you're ready to publish.
Shira C. Aug 2, 2010, 5:29pm UTC
AHHHHH. Thanks for sharing this trick of the trade.
Shira C. Aug 4, 2010, 7:08pm UTC
Hey, Ann, the new icon is cool!
Larry M. Aug 2, 2010, 3:37pm UTC
Your view of science is quite different from mine. This is how I view science.

Phenomena are observed. People attempt to explain them. The explanations are tested and those which do not match the observations are eliminated or modified. The procedures of science are arranged such that other people can be convinced by the tests.

That last requirement is where logic comes in. It has been observed that what we think of as logic seems to apply across cultures. Thus a mathematical "proof" is followed, understood, and agreed with by people who share no other language than math. The same goes with scientific experiments. The scientist provides the theory, rationally generates hypotheses which predict the outcome of experiments, tests by running the experiments and providing complete and detailed directions for how the experiment is conducted, and comes to some conclusions by reason. This material provides the opportunity for anyone at all to consider the theory, the hypotheses derived rationally from the theory, and do his or her own tests of those hypotheses. By doing so one can be most forcefully convinced that the theory is false.

Thus, science is a way to convince others that theory is incorrect, false, wrong, and to be changed or rejected. That's all it is. There is no more.

Science overlaps with philosophy being a tiny branch of that huge field. It leans most heavily on that part of philosophy which concerns definition. The words used to state a theory must be well understood in the same way by all parties involved. Otherwise the whole structure fails. One cannot convince another if they do not refer to the same phenomena.
Shira C. Aug 2, 2010, 3:47pm UTC
I'm not entirely sure where we differ.

I agree that reason is not culturally determined. It is, I strongly suspect, a subroutine inside the human brain.

Granted that scientists (like everyone else) use reason. All I'm saying is that, if an observation cannot be explained in a reasonable way, there are two choices. Accept the observation without being able to explain it, or discard the observation as contrary to reason. I'm talking here about a robust observation, one that cannot be explained away as some kind of observation error.

As I see it, in that situation, science will accept the observation. Philosophy, until quite recently, was inclined to insist that reason was a sufficient guide, and would therefore have discarded the observation.

I gather you disagree, so perhaps you can clarify where?
Larry M. Aug 2, 2010, 4:05pm UTC
Shira,

A scientist MUST ACCEPT the observation. Data are collected. You have no choice about the data. Data which have not yet been explained are just data waiting for explanation. The scientist must be able to say "I don't know" when asked for an explanation. There is no "discard" option for data, reason or not. There is no grounds for rejecting observation.

Of course, if an observation is placed on a category, that placement may be incorrect. If the observation is a human observer's report, there may be a host of explanations for the report that involve the person as opposed to the object of the report.

"Science exists to resolve ... conflicts." I don't think so. Explaining how / why some phenomena are as they are is not a conflict. Two theories are never in conflict with each other but with reality (whatever that is). Scientists may conflict with each other but theories do not. They are just different. They don't care.

"Every society has developed science,which is the filtering of observation through many individuals..."

I don't think so. The production of testable theories which are disproven through refuting hypotheses logically deduced from those theories is a very recent in history event. (Thus my emphasis on what science is above.) True, the peoples of every society in history have learned a considerable amount about their environment and social structure. But they did not use science. There were no formal, testable theories refuted. That is the key. Unless theories are disproven and rejected, there is no science. (Which eliminates for all practical purposes Sociology and Political Science as sciences along with most of psychology.)

Also, there is no "filtering of observation through many individuals" in science. Observation is not in any way filtered in science. That would be considered to be a flaw in any test.
Shira C. Aug 2, 2010, 4:18pm UTC
AH! Now I see.

I think that modern, professionalized science is a great thing. But evolution doesn't work with an end in sight. Science had to exist for a reason that made sense before it was professionalized.

I think I see now your point about science being a branch of philosophy. Historically in the west, it was considered so. I think the reason is that certain cultures developed professional philosophers before they developed professional scientists. (ancient Greece and ancient India -- both from an Indo-European ancestral culture -- spring to mind).

But I'm arguing that science was science before it was a branch of philosophy, and in cultures which didn't develop professional philosophers.

The conflicts I'm talking about are those conflicts of brain function that cause particular observations to be incorrect. This problem has existed since observation existed, of course. Before culture made it possible to hold a body of corrected observations in common, individuals simply paid the penalty for their incorrect observations.

Does this make my view any clearer?
Larry M. Aug 2, 2010, 4:31pm UTC
Shira,

To me, philosophy includes all human thought. :-)

Science as a method has existed for a long time. You can see three year olds applying parts of the method. I am sure some individuals probably used the method, alone, and found it useful.

Conflicts of brain function that cause memory of perceptions to not match reality (as perceived by most other people) are, to me, a branch of psychology. Our memories have worked well enough to have us survive as a species but they are not very good in the photographic sense. However, they do provide one very important thing relevant to all disciplines, consciousness. Without that instant to instant memory of the preceding instants we would not be conscious.
Shira C. Aug 2, 2010, 4:57pm UTC
I agree with your point about consciousness depending on memory. In fact, I think that consciousness is made up of memory. (That is, consciousness always comes into being after the fact, and even after the brain has begun processing the fact.) Dennett calls this the "Multiple Drafts Model" of consciousness.

I'm not willing to cede your definition of philosophy, I'm afraid. (No surprise, huh?)

On the question of how effectively a single individual could correct his/her own errors of perception, thus creating a sort of idiosyncratic science... I'm gonna have to think about it. My gut says that give and take is what pushes scientific correction forward, and I think that's an original part of the beast. But I'll think some more!

Thanks, Larry.
Larry M. Aug 2, 2010, 5:19pm UTC
Shira,

I distinguish between science as an institution (the body of scientists) and science as a technique or method. Science as an institution does use consensus to "weed out" or even "filter" the reports of those who wish to be a part of science. There are and have been scientists who had delusions. Those delusions did not become the observations for the other scientists. So science does help reduce the incidence of erroneous observations.

But for the individual, one can only compare observations with one another and see which are consistent with the body of observations. An individual cannot be as effective at this as can scientists collectively. (Remember the astronomer who saw the channels on Mars?)
libramoon .. Aug 2, 2010, 5:38pm UTC
http://evolutionaryphilosophy.com:80/2010/02/11/the-self-consciousness-flow-of-william-james/


http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~regfjxe/awnew.htm
Single Cell Consciousness

http://jcer.com/index.php/jcj/article/viewFile/7/6
Addressing the Hard Problem

Shira C. Aug 2, 2010, 5:45pm UTC
Absolutely, Larry. And I just saw some folks here on gather all excited about various apparent patterns on the surface of Mars which are supposed to have some sort of mystic significance or something.

Here's the thing. Any animal can make an observation error and, if it survives, learn from its mistake. I'm not sure that when humans do the same thing it becomes science.

What do you think?
Larry M. Aug 2, 2010, 6:02pm UTC
Shira,

I assure you that when human beings do that it does NOT become science. There's no theory involved in that. Without the theory there is no science.
Shira C. Aug 2, 2010, 8:47pm UTC
Libramoon -- thanks for the links. I have just finished two, and working on the third.

I'm curious. Are you providing these as interesting links, or making an imiplicit claim that they are saying the same thing? If the latter, I'm not seeing it -- all three (four, counting the earlier one on Krishna) have a few threads in common, but the differences seem weightier than the commonalities.
libramoon .. Aug 3, 2010, 7:13pm UTC
Yes, Shira, the point is the diffferences. Throwing in some different viewpoints from different sources.
aniko    Aug 23, 2010, 11:59pm UTC
This is a great subthread, and I completely missed it. :) I think I agree with Larry that while all cultures made scientific observations and used what is essentially the scientific method to solve problems (think of hunter-gatherers' track-reading abilities, for example), the consciously approached and consistently applied scientific method is a relatively new thing.
Ron (Administering the Clear Channel Fox news gullibility test, daily) W. Aug 2, 2010, 4:40pm UTC
Interesting, Shira.
Shira C. Aug 2, 2010, 4:51pm UTC
lol. And it's all your fault!!!!!!
Ron (Administering the Clear Channel Fox news gullibility test, daily) W. Aug 2, 2010, 10:11pm UTC
Hey, I just call them the way I see um, and leave it to you folks to explain them ;o)
Ann Marcaida Aug 2, 2010, 5:17pm UTC
Hiya Susan! We appreciate the recommendation!
Shira C. Aug 2, 2010, 5:46pm UTC
Thanks for stopping by, Susan. We'd also welcome comments.
Jerry Kays Aug 2, 2010, 5:32pm UTC
Of all of the choices listed below, religion has the most of the rest as definitions contained within that heading.

Back in the Olden Days before everything got so complicated, most of these now separate studies were all contained under the heading of Philosophy with Metaphysics a branch of that ... (unless I got it wrong)

Philosophy is the study of general and fundamental problems concerning matters such as existence, knowledge, values, reason, mind, and language.[1][2] It is distinguished from other ways of addressing fundamental questions (such as mysticism, myth, or the arts) by its critical, generally systematic approach and its reliance on rational argument.[3] The word "philosophy" comes from the Greek ????????? (philosophia), which literally means "love of wisdom".

Epistemology (from Greek ???????? – epist?m?, "knowledge, science" + ?????, "logos") or theory of knowledge is the branch of philosophy concerned with the nature and scope (limitations) of knowledge.


Ontology (from the Greek ??, genitive ?????: of being (neuter participle of ?????: to be) and -?????, -logia: science, study, theory) is the philosophical study of the nature of being, existence or reality in general, as well as the basic categories of being and their relations. Traditionally listed as a part of the major branch of philosophy known as metaphysics, ontology deals with questions concerning what entities exist or can be said to exist, and how such entities can be grouped, related within a hierarchy, and subdivided according to similarities and differences.

Metaphysics is a branch of philosophy that is not easily defined.[1] It is concerned with explaining the fundamental nature of being and the world.[2] Someone who studies metaphysics would be called either a metaphysicist[3] or a metaphysician.

Scientific method refers to a body of techniques for investigating phenomena, acquiring new[1] knowledge, or correcting and integrating previous knowledge. To be termed scientific, a method of inquiry must be based on gathering observable, empirical and measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning.[2] A scientific method consists of the collection of data through observation and experimentation, and the formulation and testing of hypotheses.[3]

Religion is the belief in and worship of a god or gods, or in general a set of beliefs explaining the existence of and giving meaning to the universe, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs

Spirituality can refer to an ultimate or immaterial reality;[1] an inner path enabling a person to discover the essence of their being; or the “deepest values and meanings by which people live.”[2] Spiritual practices, including meditation, prayer and contemplation, are intended to develop an individual's inner life; such practices often lead to an experience of connectedness with a larger reality, yielding a more comprehensive self; with other individuals or the human community; with nature or the cosmos; or with the divine realm
Jerry Kays Aug 2, 2010, 5:42pm UTC
PS ... sorry that the very first sentence link takes you to the wrong place ... too lazy to redo it all over again because of all of the links ... but most headings are included under the other headings throughout anyway.
Shira C. Aug 2, 2010, 5:56pm UTC
Jerry -- I understand your organizational schema, and it does describe the history of western thought. Your schema would be a good answer to the question of how science, religion and philosophy developed, mostly in Europe.

My viewpoint is a bit different, in that it asks how science, philosophy, and religion manage to pay for themselves, and thus become a persistent part of our cultural landscape. And not just a western cultural landscape, but part of human culture in the broadest possible sense.

Religion and science are universal parts of human culture. Philosophy is a bit less familiar to me. I don't know if there has been a study of comparative philosophies in the same way there have been studies of comparative religions. (That's something I will be looking in to. Have people studied pre-technological people to see how and if they treat paradox?)

Does that make any sense to you?
Jerry Kays Aug 3, 2010, 3:29am UTC
Shira ... asks how science, philosophy, and religion manage to pay for themselves, ...

Philosophy by selling books. Science by selling the products originating from ideas. Religion by selling peace of mind after first instilling fear. (???)

The links were just to provide in one place a source of very related meanings for the readers of the thread ... meanings that have helped me make comparisons in the past.

Your question(s) make a lot of sense, shows an intelligent inquiring mind. I do not know the answers and have not did a complete philosophy study, as say an academic would, because in reading into it all to some degree, I found it difficult to remember just who thought what, and was not all that impressed with my finding that it seemed that most of them disagreed with each other and argued endlessly their differences ... one would have to know in detail all of those theories and differences, in order to make an honest comparison ... I ended up just quoting only those who thought as I had come up with on my own ... such as Hegel's Dialectic, a form of (+=-) (acceptable paradox)

As for the ancients and there understanding of paradox and acceptance of it ... I suspect it was much more acceptable through Plato's and Socrates time ... as I have often said, my study found the change away from paradox acceptance came in a big part when one of the "Fathers" of Christianity; Augustine, took western minds, and they eventually most of the world, down the path of duality (+/-) which left no room for paradox, requiring a "right" answer and all others being then wrong and expendable.

IMnsHO
Shira C. Aug 3, 2010, 11:47am UTC
A very interesting comment, Jerry!

Let me just say that when I say "pay for itself" I'm talking in evolutionary termrs. Basically, evolution assumes that a particular trait or activity must provide a benefit for the organism that has or does it, or the trait or activity will not persist. Selling books doesn't work unless there is an advantage to those who buy the books, so it doesn't answer the question, if you see what I mean.

I see that you have a particular understanding of paradox. I'd be curious about your meaning when you talk about "acceptance of" paradox among ancient Greek philosophers.
Jerry Kays Aug 3, 2010, 2:05pm UTC
Shira, I suspected that I was being a bit "flippant" around the words "pay for" ... as for the ancient Greek views of paradox, I would have to go back and do some reading to refresh my memory ... but in a nut-shell, I believe that non-dual thinking in general deals well with apparent paradox ... it is dualism that has no room for it.

I will read some more and see if I can back that up ...
Jerry Kays Aug 3, 2010, 4:18pm UTC
Dialectical method and dualism
Another way to understand dialectics is to view it as a method of thinking to overcome formal dualism and monistic reductionism. For example, formal dualism regards the opposites as mutually exclusive entities, whilst monism finds each to be an epiphenomenon of the other. Dialectical thinking rejects both views. The dialectical method requires focus on both at the same time. It looks for a transcendence of the opposites entailing a leap of the imagination to a higher level, which (1) provides justification for rejecting both alternatives as false and/or (2) helps elucidate a real but previously veiled integral relationship between apparent opposites that have been kept apart and regarded as distinct. For example, the superposition principle of quantum physics can be explained using the dialectical method of thinking—likewise the example below from dialectical biology. Such examples showing the relationship of the dialectic method of thinking to the scientific method to a large part negates the criticism of Popper (see text below) that the two are mutually exclusive. The dialectic method also examines false alternatives presented by formal dualism (materialism vs idealism; rationalism vs empiricism; mind vs body, etc.) and looks for ways to transcend the opposites and form synthesis. In the dialectical method, both have something in common, and understanding of the parts requires understanding their relationship with the whole system. The dialectical method thus views the whole of reality as an evolving process.


As a means to resolve apparent paradox ... the ancient Greek Philosophers were very involved with it all ...
Shira C. Aug 3, 2010, 5:35pm UTC
This is very interesting Jerry. Still reading. Depending on time, I may come back and discuss this here -- otherwise, we will certainly get to it as the LYR discussions wear on. (May take me some time to assimilate it, since it seems to be a method that spans both Europe and India and religious traditions from both places.)
Frank Luke Aug 7, 2010, 1:06pm UTC
Hi Shira, re: "Basically, evolution assumes that a particular trait or activity must provide a benefit for the organism that has or does it, or the trait or activity will not persist."

I believe our outward evolutionary modifications will be less obvious but that human transformation is inner, psychicly and psychologically, where evolution is taking place. Tech and science are important factors in this modification.

I see that developing higher consciousness and attaining the spiritual realization that peace rather than the warrior mindset that leads to settling differences is going to obviously be crucial in human development. If we fail to evolve in this way, we will go the way of the dinosaur. Maybe in an apocalyptic cataclysm or with a long, drawn-out, unpleasant planetary decline.
Shira C. Aug 7, 2010, 3:03pm UTC
OK, possibly. But it's tough to turn a hypothesis about spiritual evolution into a falsifiable scientific theory.
Jerry Kays Aug 7, 2010, 3:08pm UTC
a matter of like begets like ... what goes around comes around ...
Jerry Kays Aug 7, 2010, 3:09pm UTC
PS ... the above was a response to Frank.
Frank Luke Aug 9, 2010, 4:09pm UTC
Shira, what do you mean re: "But it's tough to turn a hypothesis about spiritual evolution into a falsifiable scientific theory" ?

What seems to me most difficult is creating that tipping point to have humanity recognize and then make that spiritual consciousness a reality.

To term what seems to me an unquestionable issue as a hypothesis seems to me to not recognize its importance.
Shira C. Aug 10, 2010, 10:27am UTC
In order to be testable (and therefore subject to scientific inquiry) a hypothesis has to be falsifiable. Or maybe it's better to say it the other way around. If a hypothesis could never be falsified by experiment, it's not subject to scientific inquiry.

If what you are saying is that "moral evolution" is unquestionably true, you have ruled it out of scientific inquiry.

Personally, though, I think the evidence for anything I'd be willing to call moral evolution is extremely mixed. Yes, we do seem to make progress in some regards over time. And at the same time, the level of brutality and general moral failure may be constant. That is, we invent new ways to be brutal about as quickly as we eliminate old ways.
Frank Luke Aug 10, 2010, 12:46pm UTC
Shira, am I missing your point to ask if gravity can be falsified, not subject to experiment? what if it turns out that the "law" of gravity turns out to be falsified at some future date?
Shira C. Aug 10, 2010, 1:09pm UTC
Exactly, Frank. What's scientific is, of course, the explanation of how gravity operates. And (although I'll add the usual caveat that I am a physics MORON!) Newton's explanation of gravity was in fact shown not to be accurate at all scales and was replaced by Einstein's.
Frank Luke Aug 12, 2010, 12:50pm UTC
Shira: I'm wondering if or why you would want to have a scientific conclusion to moral enlightenment? It's something to believe or not, not imposed on anyone. Those who believe are maybe dreamers, would you fault me for that?
Shira C. Aug 12, 2010, 1:06pm UTC
Looking up the threadlet, I see the problem. First you asked about the evolutionary principle that a trait or behavior has to pay for itself immediately (not sometime in the future, because evolution is blind to the future), then you proposed another mechanism for evolution. Because you first asked about a scientific aspect of evolution, I thought your subsequent comments were also about science. Hence my remark about what constitutes a scientific hypothesis. I'm gathering from your comment above that you actually meant to transition from science to personal belief in that comment? If so, I missed it! Sorry!

Of course, I have no problem with personal beliefs, whether or not I share them. I just draw a bright line between personal beliefs and ideas that are "objective" enough to pass scientific muster.
Frank Luke Aug 13, 2010, 1:09pm UTC
Shira, TY for the above.

I concede karma is a shifty thing and you point that out. As I see it, all you point out is true but I don't think it negates how karma works, even to the point of personal karma encompassing reincarnation as a way of settling scores posthumously in rebirths. There's no way this can be proven scientifically which is probably your not being able to subscribe to it but it offers the best "explanation" of how it seems some individuals are so highly conscious seemingly at very early ages. Some instances of historical bad karmic actions leave a legacy of misery and smouldering resentments for generations, centuries at times.

Collectively, I feel humanity is rewarded or suffers from karmic collective consequences, even when unconsciously perpetuating karmic crimes. Think black/white relations, Christian/Arab/Muslim relations, long-simmering hatreds of any kind.

In the way of beneficial consequences of good karma, we have the work and efforts of scientists and doctors, philanthropists and enlightened politicians who bequeath to humanity their spiritual gifts.
Ann Marcaida Aug 2, 2010, 7:24pm UTC
Aneesh, thanks for the recommendation! I've love to hear your comments.
Shira C. Aug 3, 2010, 11:10am UTC
Aneesh friended me, so I'm hoping for a comment!
Frank Luke Aug 10, 2010, 12:52pm UTC
Hey Shira, re: a moral evolution

Am I missing your point to ask if gravity is falsifiable? What if it turns out that the "law" of gravity will be found falsifiable at some future date?

Yes, the attainment of a higher consciousness that bestows a saving evolutionary adaptation may take eons the way evolution works but I think I make the case that it's urgent and that urgency may dictate the psychic and spiritual evolution I speak of. Tech, TV, and the shrinking of the planet as well as the raising of survival ante may also underline and promote the concept, if not the evolution.
Frank Luke Aug 2, 2010, 9:39pm UTC
In the marketplace of ideas, religions included in it, I submit that all ideas are stories and submitted as mere offerings of truth competing with other offerings that claim to be equally if not more true. To be battling over stories and suppositions disguised as truth is a contest to see who can win the most over to believing in your story or supposition, IMO. Some of the stories and suppositions seem to have more credence than others and enjoy adoption of the intelligentsia and those who give them credence until other more credible information is offered in place of that believed as true till that point. And so it goes in humanity's quest for ulitmate truth or what appears to be so.

This is how I view knowledge.
Frank Luke Aug 2, 2010, 9:56pm UTC
Jerry and Bent: I hope you noted my posts re: Speaking of Faith and New Dimensions on the tail end of the previous page and you'll follow up on referencing them. I think they're worth your while(s).

Aloha, Frank
Jerry Kays Aug 3, 2010, 3:32am UTC
TY Frank.
Shira C. Aug 3, 2010, 11:18am UTC
Frank, your mention of the "free marketplace of ideas" brings up an interesting point. Generally speaking, we treat this free marketplace as if each individual chooses the ideas to accept, with full consciousness and intention.

Dennett (and others, including Thich Nhat Hanh) suggest that the choice takes place at a deeper level, often without conscious choice. Dennett, for example, sets out the example of a lancet fluke that takes control of an ant, causing the ant to neglect its own welfare to help the fluke to reproduce.

What are your thoughts?
Frank Luke Aug 3, 2010, 12:21pm UTC
Now we've got a Bent and Jerry show/dialogue going on here on LYR!

(-;
Frank Luke Aug 3, 2010, 12:47pm UTC
Shira, re: the above

There's the idea that there's no free will, all that happens is a cosmic evolutionary script. I go with that to some extent but I interject the idea that humans do have choices and when an idea occurs, we can choose to follow up on it or not, and how we react also brings up the question of whether that choice is pre-scripted or not by (who or what?)

It remains a mystery, a puzzlement, no?
Shira C. Aug 3, 2010, 5:09pm UTC
I think much of the problem is due to our ways of thinking about cause and effect. We tend to think that any effect has a single cause, and (with few exceptions), this is a cause that is of similar, um, strength?, to the effect.

We are finally finding ways to deal with effects that have multiple contributing factors, but we have not yet apparently realized that multiply-influenced events are the norm, and our normal a->b events are much less common.

When you see that events can come from many factors, some of them both small and important, free will becomes less of an issue -- a thought doesn't have to do ALL the work of causing an event.

(Of course, one can ask if our thoughts are also inevitable, lol.)
Jerry Kays Aug 4, 2010, 12:16pm UTC
I can fully appreciate the reasoning of the multiple causes to an effect ... of course there are also multiple effects also outside of our area of focused concern ... because everything is inter-related ... ie, the butterfly causing a hurricane ...
Jerry Kays Aug 4, 2010, 12:47pm UTC
Also the ant/fluke "relationship" ... and so many other such things that go on in the insect kingdom ... just helps remind me of probable relationships not so nice that most likely take place in the cosmos (what goes on in our under-seas is also pretty bizarre and frightening also) ...

I mention these things because related to the Religion or Spiritual aspects of life and eternity ... I believe that there is a spiritual hierarchy (of sorts anyway) that will, if we let it, protect us from such things ... here INtuitively, and later by helping us with decisions about our Soul futures .... IMnsHO
Frank Luke Aug 4, 2010, 1:46pm UTC
In attepting to solve problems, there's the very useful technique of brainstorming, to think of a whole bunch of possible solutions, crazy ones included.

Then there's the prioritizing those ideas in order of most likely ones to succceed on down. The ones at the top should be considered most seriously, not neglecting to consider unintended consequences.

Then there's the choosing which to go with. The list usually will indicate the best idea. Going with that one and keeping in mind the unintended consequences would seem to be the choice to make.

Any critics and nay sayers should be required to submit a list of their solutions instead of shooting down considered solutions.
Jerry Kays Aug 4, 2010, 4:29pm UTC
As to having free will ... we do have it ... but ... our Soul has a rough plan for us also ... and to the degree we follow it INtuitively, we will have a rather blissful life ... to the degree we attempt to deviate from it we will experience many hardships ... IMnsHO.
Shira C. Aug 5, 2010, 12:23pm UTC
On this subject of free will, I chanced to get a link to two articles in the New York Times that amply repay the effort of reading them. The first is a featured essay by a philosopher of religion, William Eggington, called "The Limits of the Coded World." In it he addresses some of the fallacies of what I think of as the billiard-ball model of determinism, and also the idea of a Perfect Knower.

The second article is Eggington's response to some of the thoughtful comments on the first article. (There are also links along the way to the work of other people, including those critical of the original article.)
Frank Luke Aug 5, 2010, 1:36pm UTC
Shira, re: "We tend to think that any effect has a single cause"

Is this due to what you say and am I saying the same thing by saying it's limiting thinking coming up with only one thought not realizing there can be better ones if you thought a bit? Or lazy thinking? Saying "this is the ONLY way" is the way to limit further thinking, isn't it?
'
Shira C. Aug 5, 2010, 1:42pm UTC
Frank -- I certainly agree that it is usually worthwhile to entertain several possible plans of action before deciding on one, if that is what you are saying. Not sure that is the same thing as the cause-effect idea though.

Jerry -- I'm not sure about what a Soul is, but from my perspective, it makes sense that the brain makes the decision and then notifies the ego tunnel, rather than the other way around. (Interestingly, the brain also seems to feed the ego tunnel the "sensation of having made a decision", which contributes to the illusion that the ego tunnel is in charge of the brain.)
Jerry Kays Aug 5, 2010, 1:44pm UTC
I read both above links ... and would say that a priori to our conscious decision making, is the intuitive input from the "mind of our very Soul" ... the spiritual process that precedes and "suggests" the best course of action when "all things" are considered ... it is that "signal" which was evidently "measured" (noted) by the computer that came before the actual thought being measured (noted) by the other probe, that being the a posteriori (resulting) "signal" ...

The "code of codes" will be eventually realized to be the BET (+=-) IMnsHO. I am more than confident that "it" is the basis of the basis of universal truth and reality.

Read more: Losing Your Religion: The threefold cord of... | Gather
Jerry Kays Aug 5, 2010, 1:45pm UTC
PS... the above comment got out of order because I had to make a correction and repost it.
Jerry Kays Aug 5, 2010, 2:08pm UTC
Shira, my own definition of the Soul may well differ from that of others ... I came upon my concept INtuitively rather than an empirical study of some previous set of "authorities" ... similar to how I describe the ego rather than how many who uses Freud's definitions of ego, Id and Super Ego etc.

The ego, to me, is our objective assumption about what we think we are from a non-spiritual perception, that which we call the self ... on the other hand, the spiritual aspect of us is what I call the higher Self ... that also being what I call our Soul ... what many call the personal relationship to spirit and name it rather the Holy Spirit, Christ, or even God (preferably GOD IMnsHO) that Spiritual aspect that knows us personally throughout eternity and knows our past as well as helping us advance into a "preferable" future ... (preferable meaning the best path for our own good while considering the greater good of the whole of creation ...

I use Spirit as the (=) in the BET (+=-) for the reference to the 3rd aspect of any Triad or Trinity, of which the REAL whole must consist of in order to be able to bridge the gap and void between positive(s) (+) and negative(s) (-) of our choices (actions) (causes) and the results (reactions) (effects) ...

Without Spirit (as Truth and Love, by whatever name)(some like to pretend an evil spirit called Satan, I do not) there will be a Duality of (+/-) and it's resulting Dichotomies with Conflicts involving the Gap and Void of the (/) between the choices etc.
Shira C. Aug 6, 2010, 11:53am UTC
I see. Thank you for the clear exposition. It sounds like your version of the Soul resembles the Indian concept of Atman?
Jerry Kays Aug 6, 2010, 12:36pm UTC
Atman does fit under certain definitions of which there are many with many different variations also:

Definitions of ?tman on the Web:
Shira C. Aug 6, 2010, 1:11pm UTC
Great link, thanks, Jerry.

This idea is very old in all the dharma religions (rather like monotheism in the Abrahamic faiths.) So of course it has various versions!

Someone (and I can't remember who) said that one of the Buddha's innovations was to more-or-less jettison the idea of Atman. I am considering the possibilities that the Mind-Only Buddhist philosophers more-or-less put it back. Hence my immediate connection with what you wrote above.
Jerry Kays Aug 6, 2010, 7:45pm UTC
As I recollect, and I could well be wrong, the Buddha saw Nirvana as a connection with the All ...more of a transcendence direct from Dualism to Monism ... no "spiritual Intermediary" (Trinitarian aspect) of a personal nature involved ... (?)
Jerry Kays Aug 6, 2010, 8:26pm UTC
PS ... of an enduring personal nature ...
Shira C. Aug 7, 2010, 1:26pm UTC
Well, most of my thought about nirvana (aka nibbana), I did not get directly from the Buddha, but rather from reading Thich Nhat Hanh, who is influenced by the Mind-Only philosophers, writing 1000 years after the Buddha's death. So to get a sense of the Buddha's own views, I checked accesstoinsight (Therevada site that bases its teachings almost entirely on the Pali Canon).

According to them, nibbana has four aspects: Happiness, Moral perfection, Realization and Freedom. I could go into the meaning of those terms, but anyone who's interested can follow the links above instead of letting me rephrase what is clearly covered there.

The important part, in answer to your question, seems to be that nibbana is not just a state of mind, but a behavioral and even physiological state of being.
Jerry Kays Aug 7, 2010, 4:56pm UTC
Shira, I have read the entire link provided ... it constantly differentiates between various "types" of Arahants and Buddha "Himself" ...

In order to better understand the term Arahant, I began to read here ... I have come to the conclusion that the findings of man have overly complicated things ... much as has the "church" in their definitions of what Christ Jesus was all about ... it seems that man (most of them) requires a "Superior" something to always be above them, something to always feel a need to strive for, an unreachable stage of "potential" called "perfection" ... that is all well and good, except it just demands that the Arahant can never be fulfilled during his life, that he must always be less than the "standard" ... to each their own.
Jerry Kays Aug 7, 2010, 4:57pm UTC
PS ... and all of that fully brings home why Frank and others are so "confused" by the meaning of the word "Enlightenment" ... much as Christians are about the word "Resurrection" ...
Shira C. Aug 7, 2010, 7:19pm UTC
You're correct, I think. I tend to filter that stuff out when I read, but there are a lot of Buddhist writings that push the idea that the Buddha was somehow more than an ordinary human. One thing I like about Zen is that it has mostly avoided that tendency and brought the topic back to immediate experience / mindfulness.
Frank Luke Aug 8, 2010, 12:35pm UTC
Jerry, can we say that Nirvana is the Awakening Event? If I'm accurate it's equivalent to Awakening, which brought to me not only an ecstatic joy, mind expansion often mentioned by those who experience the Event and a commitment to trod the spiritual path to the best of my abilities. Attaining It gives me the assurance and confidence I'm in the tradition of those who claim that attainment.
Frank Luke Aug 8, 2010, 12:39pm UTC
Jerry, re: "Frank and others are so "confused" by the meaning of the word "Enlightenment"

I don't feel there's a confusion of my take on Enlightenment. I see it as an omega point of humanity and few of us mortals are capable of attaining that high consciousness. Those who have done that are few and far between and verified mostly after they have gone on to that higher plane of existence that enables us to see their Buddhahood and Enlightenment.
To become awakened in this human state is about as much as we may advance in consciousness and there's a progression and degrees of that Awakening as well. The highest degree of Awakened consciousness results in the next step of true Enlightenment.
Jerry Kays Aug 8, 2010, 1:50pm UTC
The Buddha described Nirv?na as the perfect peace of the state of mind that is free from craving, anger and other afflicting states (kilesas). It is also the "end of the world"; there is no identity left, and no boundaries for the mind. The subject is at peace with the world, has compassion for all and gives up obsessions and fixations. This peace is achieved when the existing volitional formations are pacified, and the conditions for the production of new ones are eradicated. In Nirv??a the root causes of craving and aversion have been extinguished, so that one is no longer subject to human suffering (Pali: dukkha) or further rebirth in Sams?ra.

The P?li Canon also contains other perspectives on Nirv?na; for one, it is linked to seeing the empty nature of all phenomena. It is also presented as a radical reordering of consciousness and unleashing of awareness.[2] Scholar Herbert Guenther states that with Nirv??a "the ideal personality, the true human being" becomes reality.[3]

In the Dhammapada, the Buddha says of Nirv?na that it is "the highest happiness". This happiness is an enduring, transcendental happiness integral to the calmness attained through enlightenment or bodhi, rather than the happiness derived from impermanent things. The knowledge accompanying Nirv??a is expressed through the word bodhi.


But Frank, we have been through this many times before ... and I suspect that one can find any definition they want to back up what they prefer to believe ... for sure there are many opinions on the subject.
Jerry Kays Aug 8, 2010, 1:59pm UTC
PS ... Bodhi: Evolution of the concept
In early Buddhism, bodhi carried a meaning synonymous to nirvana, using only some different metaphors to describe the experience, which implied the extinction of raga (greed), dosa (hate) and moha (delusion). In the later school of Mahayana Buddhism, the status of nirvana was downgraded, coming to refer only to the extinction of greed and hate, implying that delusion was still present in one who attained nirvana, and that one needed to attain bodhi to eradicate delusion [1]. Therefore, according to Mahayana Buddhism, the arhat has attained only nirvana, thus still being subject to delusion, while the bodhisattva not only achieves nirvana but full liberation from delusion as well.[citation needed] One thus attains bodhi and becomes a buddha. In Theravada Buddhism, bodhi and nirvana carry the same meaning, that of being freed from greed, hate and delusion. It should also be noted that in the Mahayana Mahaparinirvana Sutra, parinirvana is equal in all respects to Bodhi and indeed is the state of perfect Buddhahood.[citation needed]

[edit] In Theravada Buddhism
In Buddhism, bodhi means the awakening experience attained by Gautama Buddha and his accomplished disciples and refers to the unique consciousness of a fully liberated yogi. Bodhi is sometimes described as complete and perfect sanity, or awareness of the true nature of the universe. After attainment, it is believed that one is freed from the cycle of sams?ra: birth, suffering, death and rebirth (see moksha). Bodhi is most commonly translated into English as enlightenment. This word conveys the insight and understanding (wisdom) possessed by a buddha and is similarly used in Christian mysticism to convey the saint's condition of being lit by a higher power - the merging of the human and the divine in theosis. There is no image of "light" contained in the term "bodhi", however. Rather, it expresses the notion of awakening from a dream and of being aware and knowing (reality). It is thus more accurate to think of bodhi as spiritual "awake-ness" or "awakenment", rather than "enlightenment" (although it is true that imagery of light is extraordinarily prevalent in many of the Buddhist scriptures).

Shira C. Aug 9, 2010, 11:20am UTC
My own feeling is that it's best not to get too wrapped up in nibbana -- either in defining it or seeking it. Sometimes nibbana can distract us from this moment, now... which is the only opportunity for practice.
Jerry Kays Aug 9, 2010, 12:37pm UTC
I agree Shira and I only write of it so often because I do not want others to have such a misunderstanding of it that they let that get in their way to the achievement ... which is possible.
Frank Luke Aug 9, 2010, 1:09pm UTC
Jerry: I've characterized myself as a bodhisattva in my profile since I took the Boddhisattva Vow with a whole bunch of people administered by the Dalai Lama. Consistent with my view that it's really a big stretch to attain Enlightenment by most people, including myself, I will revise my saying I'm a bodhisattva and say I'm an aspiring one.
Frank Luke Aug 9, 2010, 1:42pm UTC
Jerry and others, re: Buddhism in the 20th Century

If you haven't yet heard of EnlightenmentNext (EN) accessed online), I believe they have introjected a new development in spiritual consciousness where in the past traditional practice, individual enlightenment was the objective but where EN is now advocating the idea that spiritual practice is recognizing the interconnectivity of humanity with the entire Web of Life. Instead of "navel gazing" of the past traditions, EN is recognizing the necessity for humanity to be more engaged in the daunting challenges we face if we are to make a better place for all and indeed even to survive on the planet, given the crucial need to adopt peaceable ways to coexist and behave rather than cling to the warrior mindset that resorts to wars to settle differences. (Think competition for natural resources, nuclear weapons proliferation, genocides, the list goes on)

Jerry Kays Aug 9, 2010, 1:44pm UTC
Frank, Bodhisattva will in the end be defined by the person so claiming ... unfortunately for those who must play by the rules of the creed of their religion, only another "authorized" will be able to make such distinctions, especially in Buddhism where there is no "Spirit of GOD" mentioned as one who would ultimately be in authority ... leaving that to either Buddha "Himself" or his "religious" underlings to so make said distinctions ... One of the major reasons I enjoy Generic Spirituality where one can communicate directly to the highest authority ... leaving no doubt as to the validity of "qualifications" ... IMnsHO
Jerry Kays Aug 9, 2010, 1:55pm UTC
I have subscribed to that magazine, both when it was called What Is Enlightenment and now that it is called Enlightenment Next ... it is a great magazine, I highly recommend it (though I have not read an issue for well over a year now) ... bare in mind Frank that the relationship between it's founder/editor Andrew Cohen and Ken Wilber is that of the Guru and the Pandit ... not the other way around.
Frank Luke Aug 9, 2010, 2:04pm UTC
Jerry, re: "Frank, Bodhisattva will in the end be defined by the person so claiming"

I think it's more than that, that a bodhisattva is not only self-proclaimed but there are hallmarks by which one is such. As I took the Vow of Bodhisattvahood, this is what I understand:

The Sanskrit term Bodhisattva is the name given to anyone who, motivated by great compassion, has generated bodhichitta, which is a spontaneous wish to attain Buddhahood for the benefit of all sentient beings.

Taking the vow doesn't make one a bodhisattva but only one who aspires to become so.

What you described is one who has attained Bodhisattvahood. I still have a ways to go.

Jerry Kays Aug 9, 2010, 2:34pm UTC
I guess what I am attempting to say Frank, is that it is a personal relationship to the UNIverse and it is only REALLY known between the person and the UNIverse. I have no doubt that you are well on your way and I wish you the best.
Shira C. Aug 9, 2010, 4:03pm UTC
Thanks for the link, gentlemen!
Frank Luke Aug 9, 2010, 4:13pm UTC
Jerry, re: EnlightenmentNext

I so respect Ken Wilber, I would say more than I do Andrew.

What do you make of their message of 21st cent. spirituality as opposed to traditional practice?
Jerry Kays Aug 14, 2010, 2:08pm UTC
Frank, though I have read much of Cohen through the articles in his magazine and have read and thoroughly "studied" Wilber via some of his books, I think that Wilber overly "complicates" his concept which "begins" with four parts and then "builds" from there ... should he have went a bit "deeper" in the beginning I am confident that he would have settled on the BET (+=-) as his "basis" as I did ... he is not all that far from it, and I have told him so ... with no response. When people spend a lifetime building up a theory, the more complicated it gets the less likely that it will ever by modified as to any basics ... that is the greatest problems of religions ... and science as we know it.

IMnsHO
Frank Luke Aug 2, 2010, 9:55pm UTC
Bent: I've brought this comment up here from the previous page cuz I really would like to know re: the above comments

"It really is fine the way it is, and it is perfect the way I feel it... regardless of how imperfect."

"The solution sits in understanding and coming to peace within that paradox. "

You've stated in previous comments that you are annoyed with those who fall back on reincarnation as a cop out to working things out in the present life.

Your comments seem to me to contradict yourself. On one hand you have previously said that a belief in having another chance in reincarnation is a cop-out and then seeming to say here that we can let status quo continue w/o intervening and trying to change the unacceptable.

Am I accurate or not in my understanding of your comments as contradictory?
Frank Luke Aug 24, 2010, 1:09pm UTC
Ah Bent, Good to hear from you again. I understand your absences and respect you and your work completely.

What I takeaway from your extensive comments is that paradox is part of the deal and I can appreciate and accept that, full of paradox myself.

Welcome back to LYR. Best regards, aloha,
Simon P. Aug 2, 2010, 11:05pm UTC
Shira

I loved this article, I think it is one of the best things I have ever read online. I especially like your last three paragraphs, largely because I agree with them. But I would also add that Larry has made some good points regarding the nature of science. Observational facts, and the development of a body of knowledge is universal, as you say, but as Larry says, that is only the first step in real science (or as it was called 150 years ago "natural philosophy"). The rest is of the process in making a statement about the world involved hypothesis generation, refutation or support and theory building and refining.

Lets take an example. Darwin, using a great deal of observational data, lots of logic, reason and synthesis, to come up with a theory. Attempts to refute the theory have failed, and the amount of data supporting the theory have accelerated recently to pretty much enthrone evolution by natural selection as a natural law, equivalent to gravity etc.

Religious narratives, unlike scientific ones (such as theories), are not intended to be unambiguous statements of external reality.

I agree with that, and also with your next statment that

However, religion and philosophy both become dangerous when people insist that they represent such a degree of truth that adherents are free to disregard conflicting observations from the outside world.

Insistence that the world was created in 6 24 hour days, insistence that evolution is a lie, or that aliens are ruling the world, or that vaccination programs are a conspiracy or that eating meat is evil, or that AIDS is not caused by HIV, or that humanity is a blight on the earth, are examples of this kind of dangerous thinking, contradictory to the observational and theoretical truth reached by science.

BUT (you saw that coming right Slim?). Not all religious beliefs fit into that category. The belief, (not a statement of fact) that the universe was created by design by a Being is not contradicted by any observational data, and it is no more irrational or illogical than any competing possibilities. The concept of following a moral law, the idea of charity, the metaphysical speculation on the meaning of life, what happens after death, the origin of life, the nature of man, and so on, these things are not contradictory to scientific data or theory, and should not be condemned.

But Harris et al do condemn them. They use reason as their weapon, but this is a false confaltion of reason with science. The fact that reason and science are not equivalent is quite clear from the results of modern physics. And reason plays no role in many aspects of the reality of human life. The condemnation of all religious, and spiritual, and transcendant ideas by the new atheists, is to me, the height of irrationailty and simply proof that these people have adopted the dangerous religious view that the observational data of reality, in this case that there is something fundamentally human and true about religion, and faith, beauty and passion, love and intellect, which cannot be defined neurologically, are wrong, because they go against their limited view of "reason".

I think it is Harris and Dennet, and to some extent Dawkins, who are playing the role of the dogmatic, blind, contrary to the evidence, preachers of a new form of intolerant religious madness. And they are in good company with the deniers of evolution, and the criers of conspiracy. We indeed live in interesting times.
Farmer Slim dancing barefoot in the mud Aug 2, 2010, 11:47pm UTC
"BUT (you saw that coming right Slim?). Not all religious beliefs fit into that category. The belief, (not a statement of fact) that the universe was created by design by a Being is not contradicted by any observational data, and it is no more irrational or illogical than any competing possibilities."

Well sure Sy...the belief that the universe was created by design by a flying spaghetti monster is not contradicted by any observational data, and it is no more irrational or illogical than any competing possibilities.
Jerry Kays Aug 3, 2010, 3:40am UTC
Sy, and just because many conspiracy theories, and those who cry out about them, are more or less ridiculous, does not in any way invalidate others ... conspiracy exists ... and is often very nefarious to the common man who has been conspired against ... those who belittle all such theories are playing right into the hands of the conspirators and in a sense defend and enable them.
Farmer Slim dancing barefoot in the mud Aug 3, 2010, 8:48am UTC
Let's see Sy...

You believe in the existence of an entity who is beyond your power to conceive....because this belief "is not contradicted by any observational data"...to serve a purpose that you have created for yourself but attributed to the "being" that you believe exists because your belief is not contradicted by observational data...and you think that those who speak against what you believe are employing a limited view of reason.
Shira C. Aug 3, 2010, 11:39am UTC
Sy, thank you.

There's a great deal in your comment I'd like to address!

I think that the narrative-formation aspect of science is, as you perceive, a great part of its present effectiveness. But as you know, science had to pay for itself before it developed its full power, and that's what I'm attempting to address above. There is absolutely a lot to be written about the history of science as understood from an evolutionary perspective. (And why not? We've had the religious, Marxist, feminist, and who-knows-what-else historical analyses already!!!)

To your God-as-creator hypothesis, I could add the hypothesis of more interest to Buddhism, that some kind of Mind is somehow inherent in or distributed throughout the universe. Again, can't prove or disprove it. I don't happen to believe it, but I don't consider personal belief or disbelief any sort of objective evidence.

I'd like to suggest that you read Dennett before you include him in the same category as Harris, Dawkins and Hitchens. I'd suggest, in particular, Freedom Evolves as a book that gives a good demonstration of his style and views, as well as being a book you might be interested in because of the subject matter. (He examines in that book the issue of free will vs. determinism from an evolutionary perspective.) OK, he's an atheist. But none of his books, not even Breaking the Spell is the kind of diatribe against religion you seem to assume.

That said, I think that Harris falls into an old attitude that reason is somehow outside the normal range of human frailty. In old religious philosophy, I believe reason was considered more or less a divine facet of our character. It would seem as if a materialist neuroscientist like Harris should not make that kind of assumption, but I see no other reason for his insistence that the most important criterion for judging human actions is rational vs. irrational.
Simon P. Aug 3, 2010, 9:48pm UTC
I have read Dennet Shira, and I agree that his tone and presentation are far above that of Harris and Hitchens, whose style is more the ax murderer brand of discussion. And that's why I find Dennet particularly insidious. Not because he is an atheist. I have nothing against atheism. (It was, after all, my family religion). What I found really evil in Dennet (Consciousness Explained eg) is his smooth slide into a denial of all spirituality, all transcendance and all aspects of humanity that are not explained evolutionarily.

Consciousness is not a religious concept, it is a reality. We all feel it. Yet Dennet denies its reality, and strives to show that it is illusory, placed in out cortex by an accidental side show of some evolutionary advantage. This is really bad science to me. It is a circular argument. There cannot be anything but materialism, so materialism is all that there is.

I like your comments about reason, and I completely agree. Again, this reflects a myopia that is quite common among many scientists.
Simon P. Aug 3, 2010, 9:57pm UTC
Slim actually embodies this issue of the misunderstanding of the nature and importance of reason. His words to me

...and you think that those who speak against what you believe are employing a limited view of reason.

In fact I dont think that at all, because what I believe is not related to reason, as I, and Dave and others have said ad nauseum. I do understand the use of reason. I am a working scientist. My beliefs are not part of the very limited use of reason that is also often counter indicated in science as well. Not to mention art.

We have a great poet here in our midst. Libramoon's poetry is beautiful, but is it reasonable? I mean do the choice and order of the words of her poems make perfect sense? Or are they able to invoke feeling, wonder, deep recognition of some basic truth, without actually deriving from logic? Why is it so hard to grasp the limits of reason?
Shira C. Aug 4, 2010, 12:20pm UTC
Sy -- We had rather different reactions to Consciousness Explained, then, lol. As it happens, I read that book while I was slowly working through a much shorter philosophical work, Thich Nhat Hanh's Understanding Our Mind. (Yes, Ron, there IS Buddhist philosophy, lol.)

You write about a "denial of all spirituality", but from my point of view, it looked like a profound resonance with the Buddhist spirituality of the Mind-Only School. The Mind-Only folks talk about Store Consciousness (which I take it would include what I called "downstairs" brain functions) and Manas (which is roughly equivalent to the ego tunnel, or consciousness as Dennett understands it.) Manas, in this view, is a contingent process brought into being by the physical matrix of our body and brain. And Manas is generated by and in turn generates delusion -- in particular, the delusion of "self."

The verses that TNH is commenting on in this book go back about 1500 years and are based on philosophical speculation by people who had examined the mind through meditation. I'm not saying that the rather striking agreements between these two books are evidence that both are correct. But I do think that there is more going on in the non-dualist study of mind than a sort of materialist manifesto.
Frank Luke Aug 10, 2010, 12:56pm UTC
Shira, re: "it's best not to get too wrapped up in nibbana -- "

Well, that would be unwise but what if it wraps itself around you, as many who have experienced Awakening and Nirvana will attest and I as well. It comes (came) as a bolt of lightning, irresistable. Maybe you yourself may, if I assume correctly you have not yet?
Shira C. Aug 10, 2010, 1:58pm UTC
About private experience, I don't speak. It seems to me that transitory experience is wonderful, and can give insight. My understanding is that the Buddhas had a different, non-transitory experience of awakening. And I'll leave it at that.
Frank Luke Aug 11, 2010, 1:13pm UTC
Shira, I lament your reluctance to speak about private spiritual experience. I feel the thread would be more interesting and productive if more LYRicists would do so.
Shira C. Aug 11, 2010, 7:37pm UTC
Frank -- I take this principle as my guide:


In Buddhism, we distinguish between spiritual experiences and spiritual realizations. Spiritual experiences are usually more vivid and intense than realizations because they are generally accompanied by physiological and psychological changes. Realizations, on the other hand, may be felt, but the experience is less pronounced. Realization is about acquiring insight. Therefore, while realizations arise out of our spiritual experiences, they are not identical to them. Spiritual realizations are considered vastly more important because they cannot fluctuate.

The distinction between spiritual experiences and realizations is continually emphasized in Buddhist thought. If we avoid excessively fixating on our experiences, we will be under less stress in our practice. Without that stress, we will be better able to cope with whatever arises, the possibility of suffering from psychic disturbances will be greatly reduced, and we will notice a significant shift in the fundamental texture of our experience.

-Traleg Kyabgon Rinpoche, “Letting Go of Spiritual Experience,” (Fall 2004)


When I feel I have hold of an insight, I do share it, but I see no reason to hang myself or anyone else up in discussing my experiences.
Frank Luke Aug 13, 2010, 1:18pm UTC
Yes Shira, the sharing is telling how things look from our personal points of view. Putting it out there shouldn't be egoistic but maybe by sharing, it gives others a corroboration of what they've been uncertain about.

Hanging people up doing it would be a drag.
Jerry Kays Aug 14, 2010, 2:23pm UTC
To say that experience is more important than realization ... or vice versa ... is to lock one's self into a false sense of security because either such even can be the catalyst for bringing on the other ... it being the actual fruit of the event that matters the most.

IMnsHO.
Frank Luke Aug 3, 2010, 12:52pm UTC
I heard a scientist talking on another excellent program "Living on Earth" talking about how scientists and the scientific community needs to find ways to become more persuasive in their findings, pointing out that government has the mission to safeguard the people. This of course includes legislators some of whom are up on science and then those others who either have political agendas or just skipped science class.

What's heartening is the appointment of Steven Chu, scientist and now Sec. of Energy in Obama's cabinet. He should be able to kick science-deniers asses, I hope.
Farmer Slim dancing barefoot in the mud Aug 3, 2010, 1:19pm UTC
Frank Luke...

This is off topic to Shira's post, but you brought it up :-)

Chu seems like a great choice. Do you know how Obama came to pick him? As for kicking science deniers asses....I think we should just go around them. Chu and the Obama administration can avoid the controversy of global warming for example...which has become a distraction to the problem and possible solutions...and sell the need for clean forms of energy by