The scene is a train station. A young couple races to board their train as a conductor yells “last chance to board.” But before they reach the door 2 uniformed officers stop them and demand their papers. The young man asks why they are being detained. One of the officers responds that they “looked” suspicious.
Sound like a scene from an old black and white movie about life behind the iron Curtain pre 1990? Yeah, but it will also be a scene played out all over the State of Arizona soon if the courts don’t step in. The law of which I speak mandates that all law enforcement officers in Arizona demand proof of citizenship of anyone suspected of being an illegal immigrant. Imagine a scene like the one I described above playing out right here within the borders of the nation that brags that it is the bastion of freedom and in the year 2010 for Pete’s sake!
The Right wing crazies in the 48th State even have fellow Republicans scrambling for cover with this one. But considering just how far off the Right wing cliff Arizona’s Republicans have gone in the past, I’m not a bit surprised. This is the State that started the “English only” craze. And it’s also the State that elected the Napoleon like psycho Even Mecham. He was the governor that suspended the MLK Jr. holiday and referred to black children as pica ninnies. He was eventually impeached, convicted and suspended from office for embezzlement and obstruction of justice. Suffice it to say that Arizona politics can be bizarre.
The discussion over this development has focused on Hispanics and with good cause. And that is because the very nature of the law requires police to profile people which is… uh… illegal. Mmm… looks like a little conflict of interest there… The idea a State would dare to make a law that interferes with a citizens freedom to move about their own country without carrying proof is an idea ripe for legal challenges. I’m very confident this law will not survive the courts given it’s outlandish nature.
The more philosophical question though is… what the hell are these people thinking? One thing for sure is that it is a very good example of Republican hypocrisy. If I had a dime for every time one of my Republican brothers or sisters has called me a communist or says that I promote a Soviet style government, I’d be a millionaire. Yet they are willing to make a law that’s so much like what we saw behind the Iron Curtain it’s down right creepy. Oh, I’m sure these “whites only” thugs are quite confident the only people being stopped will be “brown.” So having their police behave like the KGB when it comes to Hispanics is ok. But I’d bet my left leg that if they were the ones that had every cop they see giving them the hairy eye ball and worrying about whether they remembered their “papers,” this law would be overturned faster than Fritos disappear at a Pot party.
While I’m confident that these idiots will have their moronic law stricken down soon. I’m always a bit un-nerved when I see what for all intents and purposes look like adult human beings do crazy-assed things like this. It’s becoming more and more clear to me that while humans may look alike, we obviously occupy several levels of mental evolution. But that’s a subject for a whole other article.
*************
Devin Barber, Politics Correspondent
Devin’s column, “Left Of The Right” published weekly or more to Gather Essentials: Politics is a Blue Collar Democrats take on current political news.
Devin was raised by proud Roosevelt Democrats. Being the son of parents counted among the throng of Americans displaced by the Great Depression has given Devin a deep rooted passion for causes dealing with the poor and the working class.
You can find all of Devin’s columns at LEFT OF THE RIGHT
You can keep up with Devin’s postings and his Gather activity by joining his Gather network. Just click here: Devin Barber and then select the orange “Connect” button on the left-hand side of the page.
You can find Devin and other Political Correspondents, plus celebrity content and plenty of other politics experts at Politics.gather.com.
recommend
Facebook
Twitter
bookmark 
print
Comments: 181
Thanks to Devin Barber for intelligent remarks and observations !
Andres Oppenheimer, the fine journalist of the Miami Herald says that probably Most Arizonian Latinos will move to Miami or Los Angeles where they can live without being stalked and harassed by fools. They won't leave the United States.
And millions of Tourists around the world would shun the Racist State of Arizona in their travels. ..... This is the new South Africa of Yore that was boycotted by Civilized and Moral People because of Apartheid.
Arizona will become the Pariah for Conventions, Tourists and Vacations. Foreign Corporations ( an even American Business ) will apply "passive resistance" against Arizona by not opening offices there and not sending their many "colored" employees of the "lower races" to be harassed and humiliated there.
I also feel that this law is deeply disturbing and foolish. -- So I wrote an article here in Gather.com :
Surfing Boards for Republicans in Arizona : Big Economic Backlash and a Big Economic "Blowback" for those that promoted the Racial Profiling Law
Vicente Duque
Having spent the first 16 years of my life living in Phoenix, I've seen 1st hand just how off-center politics can get in Arizona. There is an ugly segment of the white population in Arizona whose hatred for non-whites I' think out crazies any other region of the country... scary... just scary!
Friedrich Nietzsche said : "The fact that most people support a false idea, do not turn the false idea into a Truth"
Goethe and Schiller had said one hundred years before almost the same phrases, that the support of millions do not turn an idea or religion into a truth.
Vicente
And Apartheid and Segregation were extremely popular in those times with those who could legally vote.
Vicente
People in AZ say that the protesters - violent ones, BTW - were bused in from California. Figures.
Front page news in Cincinnati yesterday....we're creating a bill just like the one in AZ. So are lots of states. Great news.
They will suffer much of the wrath of this stupid law.
Before this latest wave of illegal immigrants from Mexico, Native Americans in Arizona were constantly under attack from the whites.
All that land, the reservations, the developers are just crazed for it.
AZ is reacting and not by thinking! Dick Cheney must be salivating!
Thanks for posting this to 4 US, World News & Opinions.
sort ofArizona’s SB 1070
Now boys abd girls when you get done with your reading assignment then come back and we can have an "intelligent" discussion.
BTW,
Devin...Your leading scenario could never come about due to what is written in this bill. But of course the truth is not important....Right Devin?
But considering Republicans obsession with tax cuts for the wealthy despite the utter failure of that policy to do anything but make the wealthy wealthier and the working class poorer, it should be of no surprise you want to try a failed policy again and again and again and agai...
The deffinition of insanity is a person who continues to do the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.
so...
Apparently it upsets him when someone dares to not bow to his superior wisdom.
1. Requires a reasonable attempt to be made to determine the immigration status of a person during any legitimate contact made by an official or agency of the state or a county, city, town or political subdivision (political subdivision) if reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien who is unlawfully present in the U.S.
Cop sees couple running to catch train (bus). Looks suspicious. Yells "Stop" They don't. He asks to see their papers.
Same wording and all Devin?
"According to Dan I'm a retard that sits around making things up off the top of my head."
Well except for the "retard" part your pretty close...I think you are so full of hate that you will do whatever you can to make Conservatives/Republicans look bad.
"Apparently it upsets him when someone dares to not bow to his superior wisdom."
Naw Devin, Doesn't bother me at all when you liberals continue to act like complete fools, flailing about trying to mis-characterize the things you don't like as racist, claiming the TEA Party is fomenting violence with their "hate" speech....as your liberal brethren commits acts of violence in Arizona in response to the passage of the bill!
Pants on the ground! LOL!
Diana,
There are laws against profiling and there is nothing in this bill that gives law enforcement the authority to check for citizenship solely on the basis of race.
Pulling someone over because they are "driving while Hispanic" is NOT allowed.
First the bill is based upon enforcing the federal immigration policy, nothing more.
"1. Requires a reasonable attempt to be made to determine the immigration status of a person during any legitimate contact made by an official or agency of the state or a county, city, town or political subdivision (political subdivision) if reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien who is unlawfully present in the U.S."
"legitimate contact"
If a police officer has no reason he/she can not simply canvas people to see what their immigration status is.
"reasonable suspicion"
If a police officer pulls over a driver for an infraction and that driver doesn't have a license (in Arizona they don't give illegals licenses) and the driver doesn't speak a lick of English, that might be considered, reasonable suspicion.
I can't, but it is very unlikely,
Cop sees three couples, six children and several male Hispanics crossing the highway on foot heading north....reasonable suspicion.
They just don't get it that the Sanctuary City mentality is what has forced Arizona to clarify that they have the right to enforce the federal law.
Thanks for providing the passage "determine the immigration status of a person during any legitimate contact"
Perhaps, if Obama had responded to the 5 letters from the Governor pleading for help on the border the current situation would not be happening.
Racial profiling.
As for the English thing...Again, not everyone in this country, even legally for DECADES, speaks English.
Nope! Not racial at all! The police officer knows this is a usual crossing spot for illegals coming from across the border.
Just because race is involved doesn't make it racial profiling....unless you are a lefty...then the only thing that matters is race!
"As for the English thing"
"Again" it is a reasonable standard to asess the likelyhood that a person may or may not be in this country legally.
Requires a reasonable attempt to be made to determine the immigration status of a person during any legitimate contact made by an official or agency of the state or a county, city, town or political subdivision (political subdivision) if reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien who is unlawfully present in the U.S
Should the police cease all "reasonable suspicion" activity? You're right, it is subjective.
Personally, I think there's a awfully lot of folks who need some common sense to be injected in their grey matter.
Andre Bauer of S.C. says we have illegal immigrants be cause we are"flat out lazy.
Maybe he is talking about you Marilyn?
Stop pretending you are opposed.
No Republican is going to ask for employer sanctions.
They will simply use this immigration issue to whip up opposition to any immigration refrom.
It is much better to keep the illegal immigrants, illegal and scared and powerless.
What we are talking about is institutionalized racism pure and simple. Who do they think will be the targets of this policy?... Germans?... Seriously, you know anyone with black hair and dark skin would think thrice about going to Arizona with a law like that in effect.
And what's to stop some rougue cop from using this law to detain pretty much anyone they want? No, this law is irresponsible and inherently dangerous. No free country has any business giving that much authority to it's police force.
Let's see how many rogue cops abuse this law, and when they do let's see how we treat them. By the way, how do you think their employers treat them now and get away with it totally. Did you watch the movie "Food Inc" and see the part where they get rid of any illegals for getting old or trying to stand up for themselves in the agricultural industry ... weight the two results on a scale, this is not just about racism, it is about the magnitude and type of racism and what it does the rest of the country and others.
Amen Bruce!
I've noticed for a long time that she wears suspicious shoes.
You know, the kind of shoes you always see illegal aliens wearing.
Her shoes are a dead giveaway, along with her suspicious behaviour as well.
Shoot, it can't hurt to check her papers, just to make sure that she is not illegal.
And if she is not carrying proof, then she should be slapped in jail for 6 months and fined $500 dollars for failure to do so.
I hear Sheriff Arpaio's jails are very accommodating this time of year.
I used to vacation in Phoenix each October, but not anymore!
Such nice weather wasted on such a crappy police state.
Too bad Phoenix will miss you, I am sure they will be sobbing and pining for your return. ;-)
Or the resident has a hold of the wrong end of the pistol (per cop) and he thinks he's in danger from the resident. Bang, the resident is dead.
Helluva good law. Kinda makes one afraid to go anywhere - grocery store, mall, walk down the street. Every person you meet could have a concealed weapon. The safest people may well be the illegals.
Training dictates I would not "hand over the weapon" without taking the proper precautions as per my training - this involves disarming the gun before handing it to anyone, checking the chamber, removing the clip and again checking the chamber to ensure no bullet is present... THEN and ONLY THEN do you hand your gun over.
Furthermore, unless I give the cop a REASON for stopping me, I am able to protect myself and my family from all those illegal aliens dealing drugs... outside of grocery stores, malls, or walking down the street. Feel free to be afraid... for it is you with no defense who will be the victim of crime.
I am sorry that you believe I am ignorant. Is that because I choose to not carry a concealed weapon? I really doubt that you could save yourself from all those bad men. But if you feel safer, go for it!
Then there is this strange thing wherein, even though majority did elect President Obama and do want health care reform.
Some are even today refusing to accept the election results
and some are claiming the health care bill, which in-spite of the manupulative fake polls, a majority of the citizens want.
So what is it for you Bruce K.
Simple mob rule (all decided by majority vote)
Or continued reliance on the U. S. Supreme Court to keep us from
stomping on each other?
> even though majority did elect President
> Obama and do want health care reform.
yeah, much as I venerate the Constitution,
there is this strange thing about - it does not work
for sh**.
any logical or political system can be analyzed and
defeated, and that happened with the Constitution
long ago.
the us supreme court is just about to be totally
perverted by being stacked with right-wing ideologues,
and the fact that Obama might stack it with a middle
of the roader under the cover of trying to compromise
just shows that the system is broken and how much.
How long do we give it CPR before we declare it dead
and start to get real?
I do not get the people who think it is OK to allow illegal
immigration all throughout the country and do nothing.
We need to do something that works, why not try something?
And what part of ILLEGAL immigration do people not seem to understand?
Good question ... there is a conceptual vacuum on this issue, people's emotions on both sides are inflamed, by powerful interests who are able to do that, media, political parties, and they do it for a reason. We need to get rid of the illegal aliens, but i would not mind if we could keep the good people, but how do we distinguish? i am against a blanket amnesty and theoretically we need to have a border that works. we are importing crime and corruption from all over the world, particularly mexico. the us is not going to ever work if we keep that up.
I do not mean shutting down someone who has now and then hired some one with really good fake papers.
Bruce, you are failing to understand. Many of us "libs"are opoosed to the illegal immigrant labor because it is very damaging to our own workers, however we know it is immoral
Now I understand that is hard for some to accept. But it is immoral because, they came and kept coming because there were jobs. And the employers encourage them to encourage others to follow them into the workplace.
No chance of working, would end the reason for arriving.
As far as people from
China, Pakistan, India, other nations who arrive in Mexico then cross the border.to the U. S. A.
That will require some cooperation between our government and Mexico.
Simpson Mazzoli 1986
Passed to grant legal status to the at the time estimated 4 Million illegal immigrants.
Poorly written, and failed when
Bush era conservatives wanted the cheap labor.
point, we have been trying to do somethign about this
for 30+ years and it has not worked, it just gets worse.
What's that definition of insanity again ? ... doing the
same old thing and expecting different results?
I think it is much more and worse that just cheap labor,
it is also to stimulate racism and division among workers,
and old trick that shows just how fascist our whole system
is.
What we need to do is get serious about this. Bring our troops home from all our insane cold-war era overseas bases, and put them on the border. Beef up the Coast Guard. Build a wall from Tijuana to Texas, with infrared scanners, motion sensors, guard towers with armed guards, and attack dogs. Anyone crossing at an unauthorized checkpoint will be assumed to be criminals and attacked, with plenty of warnings in both languages on either side.
Anybody that's here illegally gets sent back, and the country from which they came will be presented with the bill. Not that they'll pay it, but it's the principal of the thing - maybe if they are held responsible they'll be a little less flippant about how they play with our immigration law.
Expired visas will be tracked down - recall that several of the 9/11 bombers were here on expired visas. We want to know exactly who is coming in and out of this country, when they came, what they're doing (roughly), and how long they're going to be here.
I'd love to see the protests about THAT. :)
I don't think we should discard the idea of taking over Mexico, or helping them, except that the rulers of the US and Mexico love the money they get from things the way they are.
There are tons of Americans living in the north that would want to retire and live in cheap Mexico, like the do in Florida now, and thus developing its economy and creating a demand for law and order.
So yeah, I'm fine with enforcing the laws we have on the books regarding the hiring of illegals. But I think you have to have some real border control too. It'd go a long way towards stopping domestic terrorism too; these are people who are not coming here for employment.
Yet...
1) Arizona Senator John McCain, a former proponent of what the Republican party calls amnesty, is now vehemently against passing any federal immigration bill
2) The entire Republican party is against passing any federal immigration bill
3) Lindsey Graham, who is often tied at the hip with John McCain, drops his support for a climate/energy bill HE CO-AUTHORED because the federal government is trying to pass an immigration bill THAT HE SUPPORTED ONLY A FEW WEEKS AGO. (Note: CAPS for emphasis, not for yelling)
Doesn't it seem just a wee bit disingenuous?
Making this about anything but the difficult or maybe impossible mechanics or removing people who should not be the issue, arguing Dem, Rep, Liberal, Conservatives is not really the point is it?
I agree. But one party is trying to bring it to the floor for debate, and the other is trying to stop even the honest discussion out in the open where everyone can watch it on CSPAN.
Immigration is a difficult issue (not unlike other difficult issues). Different people have different, and valid, views on what we should do about it.
So let's be honest and talk about it in public. Everyone should put their cards on the table, and the debate should be on fact, not by mouthing words handed to them by Frank Luntz but by addressing actual facts.
Do you think that is possible?
It is from 2005, but the person who posted it said it was the current proposal however.
The age of the bill is obvious for many reasons, including Dobbs, non longer on CNN, and the mention of People and events of 2005. No clear date on the clip, but the lies against the legislation proposed then are now being used against a new bill, not yet introduced.
http://d.yimg.com/kq/groups/17260182/1610997888/name/ftcvi26.wmv
What a circus!
Seems like an oversimplification to me. It's possible to think the Arizona law is insane without being "pro-illegal immigration." It's impractical and unconstitutional. Minor details, eh? :)
You see, there are many ways to solve some problems, but the U.S. corporations, that entice the Mexicans up so as to help force down U.S. wages, wouldn't have been very happy. Now to make it even less likely that will be done, the supreme court had made corporations people for political purposes.
Well ... that means to me that it is a opposition branch of theme of the Republican party in Arizona that wants this done, and they want it done for pure pragmatic reasons, illegal immigration is something almost all Arizonans oppose and want to do something about.
Nothing that is coming from industry or concerning industry is going to push wages up George - nothing.
Corporations have been people since right after the civil war.
"Republicans only hate a strong government when it tries to help people and improve the community life. "
Guess you haven't seen the data on the charitable giving chart by Rep vs Dems. Ha Ha Ha, so sillly
(I don't know but I suspect at some point the Courts will tell us) - If so, then overturn it...
But, if not, then while it may be distasteful (to me and others), I view it as a States Right issue and if Arizona wants to implement this law, then the people of Arizona have a decision to make if they want to live in that state or not.
BUT the law is really a waste of resources and just makes a certain segment of the population "Feel Good" - the ONLY way to stop the flow of illegal's into the United States is to after the Employers in the United States - both companies and individuals that hire illegals. Simply going after individuals won't do anything since the odds are if someone is here illegal and doesn't break the law - they'll be here as long as they want).
And while this law also lays out parts for Employers - I'll believe it when I see it that they will really move against companies - who no doubt contribute big money to re-election campaigns...
If you dry up the source of jobs the people will stop coming over.
Can they stop me and demand my papers because of my shoes or my blue eyes? Sure seems so!
Guess you want all the DUI convictions thrown out since they first get picked up under "probable cause". Sheesh!
Not immigrants, but ILLEGAL immigrants.
I commit a large amount of thought crimes.
Labeling the violent disturbance as a RIOT is nuts,
Let's see we have old white border militia man striding into crowd screaming names at the demonstrators, they chase him and hurl water bottles, police take him away for his own protection, 2 water bottles hit police. All is very quickly calmed down by demonstrator leaders and very professional behaving police officers.
No riot Winston,
Just an old racist doing the "walk into the theater and yelling fire"
Racist alert on Cena !
I said that was not a riot. I did not say it was ok to attack him.
Do we want open borders? I don't think so, yet this is what we effectively, or ineffectively, have in the US on the Southern border. We have so many illegal, illegals that crime in some cities is rampant. There is also the questions of, can we afford to have the social programs that Liberals desire if it is open to everyone in the world, or even just the overflow from Mexico.
I am already for changing the Constitution to stop the automatic granting of American citizenship to anyone who happens to be born on US soil no matter what their nationality. The world is changing way to fast, and our laws and system is not changing at all.
There is the other question of Mexico's asymmetry in terms of how they treat people from other countries. Foreigners cannot do in Mexico what Mexicans can do here. Trying to treat people from a 3rd world dictatorship with this one-size-fits all logic that the American media seems always trying to promugate, dishonestly, is too foolish and never has and never will work.
Why not try the law and see how it goes. What kind of excesses and abuses occur and see if they can be fixed or even agreed on before we go bashing it. I know it would feel bad to be stopped and questioned, so let's see if the authorities can do it sparingly, politely, non-abusively and what the effectiveness of it is. I am so tired of seeing huge families of poor Mexicans walking around on the streets where I live and reading constantly about Spanish surname people in the crime section of the paper. Sorry if that sounds racist, but I feel it is not at all.
Also, the whole country is pushed more towards a right wing agenda when we get a lot of poor people who undercut and allow the virtual slavery in employment to continue by virtue of having desperate people willing to work at any cost who are totally exploitable.
I don't think the source of slave-like jobs is going to dry up so I think Mexicans will continue to want to come here, and especially if they can come here and work at minimal jobs that pay nothing and no taxes, and then collect social security and medicare, and then bring all their relatives over.
Whatever we seem to do these days in America makes no sense and is insane, a policy that just pushed people out of being able to be good citizens and disempowers us all. Not matter how small the fraction one illegal alien made legal can cancel any of our votes, and over time, like money in a bank account, it grows and grows until it is the huge problem we have today.
If we are going to do something sensible, it should be done on a global or hemispheric basis. We should do something like do what we did in Iraq in Mexico, then I would have no problem with a North American Union or sorts.
Sorry to ramble, this is a very difficult problem, because we have not done or examined it closely for so very very long.
I think Mexico would make a great 6 state addition to the US helping both countries to work better.
The police are to be trained to spot illegal aliens. I have no idea what will be taught!
This is really not so much racist, which is does have a racial component of course, but it is certainly classist, because it is poor people that are going to be rousted, not the rich.
Something has to turn around the do-nothing mentality we have. I am totally against persecuting or harassing anyone, but a lot of these people are persecuted and exploited anyway. Is it only exploitation if the person does not agree to it?
We have former teachers, engineers, financial workers.
from Mexico, could you "spot" them?
I work in high tech IT and you can bet there are a lot of immigrants, but they are immigrants. I am not making any mistake in stereotyping, there are not millions of high wage illegal immigrants, they are legal at that level. Skilled talented rich people do not let themselves in for exploitation and abuse.
I am not in favor of illegal immigration, it destroys our own worker's wages.
I am opposed to "round ups" of people.
You don't seem to be able to grasp the difference.
Didn't happen then cuz it never was real, just like this delusion.
Think now, just how things are. It is not a pretty site.
You can blame it on President Obama and the Democrats, but if you are Republican I hope you are writing them, that is if you can actually see how precarious we are .
Those big bad corporations working with Bush.....oh...umm...Bush isn't around anymore.....with Obama to....wait...Obama can't be a facist?
In fact neither are, and it's just the usual liberal crap thrown on the wall to see what might stick
Hoo boy....
It's not a difficult problem. They are there to work. Wouldn't it be easier to inforce the laws on the bussiness that hire illegal aliens. But that would mean arresting guilty White people and take all the fun away from the gastapo.
Plus - the red meat for the red state folks is going after those darn illegals - not going after those fine, upstanding, American citizens (who would sell out those other white folks in turn for hiring an illegal under the table).
As far as going after brown people being easier ... isn't that a kind of tired argument. There are so many "brown" people that are legal it is not easier, that is the whole point as to why this is hard. Most people want to go to a lot of effort to make sure that legal brown people are not inconvenienced or bothered by this, but there is hardly any way to do that.
The facts of life are that just like some Muslims are going to be under scrutiny for terrorism that are innocent some "brown" people will be under scrutiny for illegal immigration. Just like everyone at the airport is under scrutiny We cannot predict the extent of that, and there are sure to be stories of things going wrong, still we have been doing nothing for so long that we have to do something at some point.
If you want to discover how strong the link is between the neoconservative Republican movement and Hitler's Nazis, read The Crusading Spirit in Modern America by Richard J. Bazillion. It's quite a revelation to see the links (with citations and references) between the neoconservatives and Nazi influence/thought.
Murdock (the media giant) has been called a neoconservative and the evidence is strong that the accusations are true.
Then the second Bush allowed the neoconservatives much power in the White House and in the Republican Party.
I agree that a higher court will eventually nullify such a law.
One thing that's sad is there is no law that stops nut cases like the one's mentioned in this post from becoming elected to either house of congress. Even the White House is not immune. We saw that with the coming of the second Bush.
Isn't Texas and Arizona neoconservative Republican strongholds?
Sure Lloyd..You betcha,
Take a look at who's commuting acts of violence in Arizona...the left! In California when prop 8 was defeated who committed acts of violence? those on the left!
Take a look at history, It was the progressives of the late thirties who lauded Mussolini and Hitler for making the people do the right thing...and before that President Wilson had his opponents jailed for speaking out against his policies making the McCarthy era seem like a kindergarten spat....Wilson was a progressive!
Sorry Lloyd the left has a far more embroiled past in the ideals of fascism than the right ever has.
The problem with you liberal/progressives is that your believe in freedom is a twisted one....It's just that the freedom is what you profess it to be and everyone better go along with it or else!
Add in the backers of American Enterprise, lots of Koch money, Heritage, and a few dozen PACs and Think tanks. Then thre is the Heartland/Sciafe(Mellon)fortune along with Coors, and other yes big, big money and ultra conservative. They have fabulous control over all the news outlets,(advertising and self interest) not just FAUX. It doesn't take too long to check/cross checd Multinational Corporations/Think Tanks/News Orgs/ contributions to Legislators.
FauxNews and the Premier Networks are just the most obvious.
You are right Dan, but the American facisits you're talking about left the Democrats for the Republicans during Reagan's reign.
They are called neoconservatives--the radical left that turned right because the core of the Democratic Party wasn't letting them have their way. They didn't get it with the Republican's either until GW Bush let them invade Iraq so they could have a go at nation building, which they won't admit was a failure.
Take a look at the actions of the left today it still mirrors the fascists of earlier times.
The Nazis thought that persons health was a mater of the state (Obamacare) they ridiculed those who thought differently that they, they sought to dismiss and demean those who challenged their agenda, and it was patriotic to report those who did disagree (Obama's flag.gov report your neighbor e-mail address).
Nope Lloyd fascism still comes from the left...You all think you know better and are damn well going to make sure that the rest of us go along...That is what fascism is all about.
There is a reason the rancher puts a bell on the lead cow for his or her herd—so the rest will follow the sound of that bell without thought or question. Then the entire herd runs off a cliff. That bell for those who follow the right so blindly without question is the GIANT and loud, biased, right wing media machine that keeps repeating the same simple message repeatedly. Hitler said if you say a lie enough it becomes the truth.
Then I seek out calmer voices that explain in detail, which requires time to read and think about. It's much easier to turn on the radio and let someone like Limbaugh think for you. I'm glad I turned that switch off decades ago and started to think for myself and question and look for the saner voices that take the time to explain.
I think this also explains why we find so few bookstores in the Bible Belt and Midwest that are not Christian bookstores.
I don't have the time to explain why your "Obamacare" slogan is wrong, so I'll refer you to AARP. They've already done it in detail and anyone who reads this information from AARP with an open mind cannot help but see the truth unless they refuse to remove the cover from their eyes and the plugs in their ears.
http://bulletin.aarp.org/yourhealth/policy/articles/a_user_s_guide_to_health_care_reform.html
http://bulletin.aarp.org/yourhealth/policy/articles/health_care_explained.html
It is obvious that Obama and his democrats are more interested in people and those that rule the Republican Party with "ONE VOICE" that wants to keep an open, Wild West Market economy where anything goes that helps the rich get richer—Robin Hood in reverse.
Have you ever questioned why the booming economy in China is succeeding as it has for the last few decades? Nothing in history has even happened like this before. Imagine a market economy that does not ignore the worker—a semi-socialist system with a semi-open market that exists side by side.
When Mao died, the Chinese under Deng Xiaoping rejected Revolutionary Maoist and embraced a controlled, socialist form of capitalism that has rewritten the books. Many of the experts in the West are still shaking their heads trying to figure out how.
China has a huge growing middle class who love Western luxuries and they live a Western lifestyle. GM is making huge profits over there while losing money in America.
China has hundreds of thousands of millionaires and a growing billionaire class that have grown wealthy in the capitalist sector of that country's economy while a socialist system exists beside it.
But Lloyd it is you liberals that has taken Hitlers message to heart, all one needs to do is read the liberals trying to dismiss and demean the TEA Party Patriots time and time again with their mis-characterizations of 'look at what this 'one said or did' "they are all that way" you have taken hold of the propagandists strategy of tell a lie enough times.....It is you Obamkins who are following the bell!
Freedom and independence and the Constitution be damned you are going to institute your agenda no matter what.
Your earlier post decries your claim of "calmer voices" with your leading off with attacks of fascism and Nazi's against those who you don't like, you are no different than any other hateful liberal trying to dismiss and demean those who think differently than you ...Those who stand in the way of implementing your leaders agenda.
Saul Alinsky, Rules for Radicals, 101
there are no rules as long as you win.
Those are the rules you and your brethren liberals live by.
And if you can't explain the benefits of Obamacare that's because there are so many negatives that out shine the positives.
But don't worry Lloyd,
Many states plan to contest Obamacare in the courts and many legal experts believe that they will be successful.
After your initial attack pretty much anything you posted was made inconsequential by that attack, and unless your goal was to be lauded by those who are as hateful and vitriolic as yourself, well you achieved that, but nothing more.
Your replies to Lloyd L. proves that everything Lloyd said is correct. Instead of still repeating the useless lies you are told, maybe you should start looking for and reading the truth. A good place to start is the links in his post. The healthcare post doesn't tell you what to say or think. It just gives you the facts and lets you decide on your own.
Dan,
What does it feel like to be used?
If you are a conservative and/or a Republican (neoconservative), it is all about making money and the power that comes with money, and Glenn Beck, with help from the far right, created the Tea Bag movement to get richer just like Limbaugh.
The Tea Baggers are the gullible, ignorant working class who are filling their bank accounts, while they don't believe for a minute any of the BULL they are dishing out, because it is all about money.
Palin Inc.Sarah Palin
• Former governor of Alaska, Fox News contributor, author, speaker
• $12 million
She gives speeches around the country for an average fee of $100,000 each. According to Sherman's reporting, Palin insisted on charging full fee for her speech to the National Tea Party Convention because the event itself was being run for-profit by its organizers. The $100,000 included $18,000 for a private jet. Beyond her Tea Party activities, Palin has also signed up to star in a reality show on life in Alaska for the Learning Channel. She'll reportedly be paid $250,000 per episode.
Glenn Beck
• Fox News host, radio host, author, speaker
• $32 million
Beck was blunt with Forbes Magazine when discussing his success. "I could give a flying crap about the political process," he deadpanned. "We're an entertainment company." Forbes said that Beck's company, Mercury Radio Arts, raked in $32 million from March 2009 to March 2010. That included $2 million from Fox News for his daily television show, $10 million for his daily radio show, $3 million for speaking events, $4 million from his online operation, and a whopping $13 million in print endeavors with Simon & Schuster (books and a magazine). Beck dominated the New York Times bestseller list in 2009, with three separate No. 1 books and a total of 3.5 million books sold.
Dick Armey
• Former House majority leader, former lobbyist, chairman of FreedomWorks
• $550,000
FreedomWorks played a key part in organizing the Tea Party. The group helped coordinate the September rally in Washington and has consistently been one of the key D.C.-based groups to lend support, organizationally and financially, to the movement. Armey himself has been a regular featured speaker at Tea Party events and something of a spokesman for it on national TV shows like "Meet the Press."
Andrew Breitbart
• Web publisher, author, pundit, speaker
• $500,000-plus
Fox had its best ratings year ever in 2009. While much of that is due to the continued dominance of consevative host Bill O'Reilly, who is less directly involved in Tea Party activism and promotions, it's also a result of Beck's record-breaking success for the network in Fox's 5 p.m. slot. More viewers means more money from advertisers means more revenue for Fox News and its parent company News Corp. According to the New York Times, Fox News chairman Roger Ailes made $23 million in 2009 for his role in that success. This year may be even better: According to Gabriel Sherman, every time Palin appears on the channel, ratings shoot up 10 to 15 percent.
Source: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ynews/20100426/ts_ynews/ynews_ts1772
Talk was never cheap for Rush Limbaugh, but now it is getting a lot more expensive.
The radio host will be paid about $400 million to continue serving up his daily dose of conservative patter through 2016. His $50 million a year paycheck represents a raise of about $14.4 million a year over his current contract, which was paying him $285 million over eight years and was set to expire in 2009.
His show — which is on every weekday from noon to 3 p.m. — attracts 3.5 million listeners in an average quarter-hour, and reaches an unparalleled audience of nearly 20 million in an average week, according to Premiere. This makes him the country's most popular news-talk host by far.
Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/03/business/worldbusiness/03iht-03radio.14190168.html
Rush Limbaugh's a disloyal clown when he says he hopes Obama fails
Source: http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/opinion/2008664366_opina25pitts.html
I don't know Lloyd, but it is you who wears the nose ring and Obama has the stick in hand, you should know from experience.
Glenn Beck, Sarah Palin, Dick Armey, excetera, excetera excetera.
"Obamas Tax Return RELEASED For 2009: President Pulled In $5.5 Million Last Year"
"Bill and Hillary Clinton earned a combined $109 million between 2000 and 2007"
So what is your point Lloyd?
Even liberals make a lot of money! How bout that Kerry dude?
You act like making money is a bad thing but your people rake in a lot of cash too!
but you just keep flailing about...It's funny to watch! Ignorant? And you think you're not being used!
Interesting. You sound just like all the other right wing fanatics. Cannot stand it when anyone throws evidence and negative terms back at you. Cannot stand it when the evidence is powerful and usually ignores that when it happens.
However, it is okay to dish it out. How the self-righteous howl when stubbing a toe.
Your comparisons don't match. The so-called leaders of the Tea Baggers are making money off lies, exaggerations and misinformation, which stirs up divisiveness and hate.
The response from AARP that shows the claims Tea Bag leaders make are wrong was done by citing facts with no insults.
It's possible that Bill and Hillary made that kind of money you claim they made, but I don't think they did it by stirring people's fears like the 15% of the population that make up the Tea Bag movement, some of whom run around spitting on people of color and calling them names.
Compare the Democrats in Congress and the Senate. For a year, these Democratic congressional representatives and senators negotiated and worked out the details for a health care plan that turns out not to be socialist. The compromises that were made to gain enough votes are evidence that Democrats follow no Pied Piper as the Republicans have been doing.
While this was going on, what did the Republicans do? They kept shouting lies, stirring the pot of hate and saying no, no, no. I've been following many Internet debates where people can vote comments up or down and by far, the far-right that Tea Baggers represent is getting voted down by large margins. Wasn't it President Reagan who said there was a silent majority that supported him? Today, a silent majority cannot exist because the Internet gives us all a voice in the debate.
In addition, don't forget, that health care is not new. The debate goes back almost a century, and several Republican presidents attempted to pass similar legislation.
Then we have GW Bush's 2008, 700 billion-dollar bail out of the banks where the money went into a black hole and is untraceable. It was like Halloween for the wealthy. None of that has been paid back.
In 2009, Obama also loaned out money to stimulate the economy and create jobs--something like five hundred billion and all but 100 billion has been paid back.
Check out which presidents ran up the largest deficits since the end of WWII—Reagan, Bush and Bush. Under Clinton, the deficit shrunk and the budget was balanced.
Without even asking if I was a Democrat, you labeled me as one since I do not agree with your beliefs. But you are wrong. I'm an independent (I don't belong to any party) and my beliefs are slightly right of center but far from where you stand out on the fringes in a pile of soggy tea. By the way, is it Earl Gray or green tea?
That's why 85% of American voters do not belong to the Tea Baggers because being a conservative or a liberal means many things instead of the stilted definition you soak yourself in.
I do not get my information from 100%-biased sources, as it appears you do. I don't get it from the "major" media either.
yes, yes I know Lloyd, You BDL's find it unbearable that some "Conservative counters your hate so effectively!
And then you try to turn the tables (NOT very well I might add). even though it was you who first began "doling it out", who's "doling" has been effectively countered to the point that you just flail about trying to find some kind of response...throwing sh** up against the wall hoping something will stick!
My comparisons are spot on as there have been no greater liars and deceptors than the Clinton's and we all remember the campaign promises of Obama.
Oh pardon my transgression of assuming you a Dem even though it pales to your original attack of name calling, but I guess you gotta find something to redirect to, like writing about health care and the Republicans and TEA Party Patriots.
You can't redirect from the facts that it is YOU who came into this conversation with your hateful and vitriolic name calling. It is you who can NOT get past your hate for those who think differently than you. Why don't you stop hating for just a little bit and think for a change.
Just where is my "hate"?
What you call name-calling is figurative language describing the right wing hate monger movement like Ann Coulter and her "godless liberals" title for one of her books. Where have I used hateful language like her's to spew what you claim is "hate".
Disgust and distrust would be closer. The Tea Baggers already own the hate.
Answer this question: Who made Anne Coulter, Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh self-appointed gods?
Dan, your words are like that Iceland volcano, which is nothing but ash clouding the sky and grounding aircraft, which could lead to another economic crisis since the one we are living with now has its roots in Republican economic policies called lower taxes for the rich while letting the nation run up huge debts while conservatives wage war to build nations that turns out to be a house of cards.
For that matter, who gave the Tea Baggers the right to speak for 85% of the people? If allowed the Tea Baggers would become the next McCarthyism and there would be witch-hunts again.
If you have forgotten what happened last time a self-appointed god had power over this republic's political process by using lies and misinformation to stir fear and gain support, this link will remind you.
http://www.encyclomedia.com/mccarthyism.html
"The period of McCarthyism began in the late 1940s and ended in the mid to late 1950s. McCarthyism came to be synonymous with the term witch-hunt, the act of making serious but unsubstantiated charges against people in public life."
I'll repeat what George Washington said when the generals came to him and asked him to become the American king to fix an economic crisis that was racking the nation at the time. He told them to leave things be--to allow the political process to work things out.
Opinionated right-wing talk radio shows like Beck and Limbaugh and authors like Ann Coulter and the circus acts they put on to make money could stir hate like what we've seen and heard from the Tea Baggers could derail that political process Washington talked about.
Right now the Democrats have the public mandate until the next election. Then we will see who holds it. If the Republican's regain that mandate, then they will be behind most of the legislation just like they were for twelve years when they had a majority in both houses of Congress—six during Clinton and six years with G. W. Bush.
You see, the president does not make legislation. Congress does that. The president can veto legislation but an overwhelming majority may override his veto. Obama is not a dictator or a Nazi. Democrats in both houses of Congress created the bill the Tea Baggers call Obamacare. The health care bill was voted into law by elected representatives and sent to the White House for the President to sign or veto.
And if the Republicans take back the house or both houses of Congress, I doubt if we will see a movement from the left like the Tea Baggers rise up to spread hate and fear against what they did. Nothing like that happened during those twelve years the Republicans controlled both houses and Bush was in the White House. Sure, there were single voices that spoke out but no Tea Baggers, which in reality is a dangerous mob stirring emotions and emotions like anger and hate often lead to violence. We've already seen a sample of that when Tea Bag members were spitting on elected representatives who happened to be colored or gay and Democrats.
Calling someone out for spewing hate and vitriol, and watching them relish in their hate and vitriol, trying to justify their hate and vitriol.
Superior....Well I'm not trashing anyone except the purveyor of hate and vitriol.
Yah, I think that pretty much makes me superior to you, but I don't think that's such a hard thing to accomplish, doesn't take a lot to rise above hate and vitriol!
":Where have I used hateful language like her's to spew what you claim is "hate"."
You can't justify your bad behavior by pointing to someone else's bad behavior.
""The period of McCarthyism began in the late 1940s and ended in the mid to late 1950s. McCarthyism came to be synonymous with the term witch-hunt, the act of making serious but unsubstantiated charges against people in public life.""
As I've already posted, compared to what the progressive President Wilson did McCarthy was a kindergartner.
"" The unpopularity of the First World War and rising working class militancy in the United States--a wave of strikes in 1919--motivated Wilson to adopt repressive legislation and unleash the repressive apparatus of the U.S. government. From 1919 to 1921 Wilson's Attorney General, A. Mitchell Palmer orchestrated what were soon called the "Palmer Raids" to arrest thousands of political dissidents."
"President Woodrow Wilson imprisoned over 100,000 Americans during World War I who were deemed political opponents or pacifists."
Sorry Lloyd the TEA Partiers can not hold a candle to the hate that you and yours spew:
Inciting Violence?
"who gave the Tea Baggers the right to speak for 85% of the people?"
Well Lloyd if you read the polls self professed liberals only account for about 21%-23% of the population and all of the rest of us are moderates and CONSERVATIVES, so that number of the TEA Party representing 85% of America is pretty accurate. Thanks for bringing it up!
"I doubt if we will see a movement from the left"
Ahh, What happened in the aftermath of prop 8 NOT passing in California? And the passage of the Arizona Immigration bill?
The TEA Partiers have been loud...You liberals get violent!
"Obama is not a dictator or a Nazi."
the only one who's been throwing around the fascist/Nazi term around is you Lloyd.
And as I said Obamacare is more like fascism than the Arizona immigration law.
The Majority of Arizonians support that law where the majority of Americans don't support Obamacare.
"which in reality is a dangerous mob stirring emotions and emotions like anger and hate often lead to violence."
Got any examples of that violence there Lloyd? Maybe like SEIU Union thugs beating up on a black TEA Party attendee?
Enforce the borders..and guess what? Protests.
Raid the companies who hire the illegals..and guess what? Protests.
"They are just poor people who want to come here to feedtheir families"
" ICE raids are breaking up families"
" People who want immigration laws to be enforced are racists"
" Blah blah blah blah"
And who is behind all of this propaganda? Could it be the employers who profit from the cheap labor that they enjoy by hiring these people?
Think about it folks.
Look up Rachael Maddows last night show, April 26, 2010. Hopefully, more of this will be exposed.
I'm more disturbed by the willful ignorance of the folks who promote and endorse this law. As Larry M. said (Illegal Immigrants, National Law, Arizona Foolishness, Sanctuary Cities and... Climate Change Legislation! Wait. WHUT?!?), "It's a MARKETPLACE issue. No jobs = no immigrants." Round 'em up and send 'em home (twelve million people? REALLY?) is one way to do it. Heavily fining and jailing the agribusiness managers and owners who make these people half or more of their workforce is a far better way.
And then there's the escalation of hateful terms used to describe these folks in public discourse (read "AM Radio"). Now Illegal Immigrants are “INVADERS?!?” Where did THAT come from?
Do that and there will be some illegal immigrant's advocacy group protesting out side of the workplace. Do anything to surtail the problem and there will be protests. And who's behind the protests? It would appear that it is people who are looking out for the rights and well being of the illegals.....but I'd bet that if you dig deep enough, you would find out that the companies who hire illegals and profit from the cheap labor are behind all of the protests.
They will go where they can make a profit. Haven't you been noticing that?
ANY business owners!!! But it won't happen if the corporate business loving Right has their way!
Here's my question, how do you enforce probable cause of being an illegal immigrant?
How do you check'em out? How can you tell who's an illegal and who isn't?
Do you guys defending this law really identify with these creeps? I'm sure I shouldn't be surprised, but I'm slack jawed over the idea anyone would try to defend this indefensible, fascist law. I mean we can debate what should be done to address the issue of illegal immigration all you want, but this law flies in the face of everything this nation was based on. But then again, you on the Right were so quick to surrender your civil liberties and right to privacy so you could feel safe from terrorists, this logically follows I suppose.
While I may not "like" the law that really isn't the point for any of us - hell there are plenty of laws I may not like - the question is: "Is the law Constitutional?"
To me that is the first question we need answered - if it isn't then the courts will overturn it.
If it is Constitutional then I may not like it but it is a valid law and the voters of Arizona will be able to vote again soon for the Gov and Rep's and if they vote them out and vote in people who don't support the law - then the law can be changed.
And it then becomes essentially a "State's Rights" issue and if people chose to not do business with Arizona (and companies in Arizona) or take trips or conventions to Arizona) and even leave Arizona - then Arizona will have a decision to make regarding the law.
Arizona finally caved in on the Martin Luther King Jr holiday, as my understanding goes, after financial pressure was brought to bear on Arizona by people among other things tourists not visiting Arizona, conventions being moved out of Arizona.
So, this law will be challenged but if it is upheld it will be up to all of us to do what we can to make sure that it costs Arizona in the pocket book to keep this law on the books.
By the way - if they really do start expending resources on this law - the folks of Arizona may find an un-welcome surprise when they get the bill for the costs of this law in just enforcement and court and jail costs...
Good question. The right is getting more and more like 1984. War is Peace. Love is Hate. Freedom is Enslavement.
Do we just do nothing? What is your answer to illegal immigration?
Then, I would revise the trade agreements that put massive amounts of Mexican farmers who were making a decent living before the trade agreements put them out of business. That is the reason for the huge influx of illegals into the country - the US government essentially took their jobs away from them, then US corporations invited them into the country to do unskilled labor at rock-bottom prices, while ensuring that their illegal status would always have them in a state of fear in the shadows and never complaining about working conditions or lack of benefits or any kind of human rights or labor violations.
I am not so sure about the trade agreements and what is going on between Mexico and the US. It's gotta be bad. Mexico is an embarrassment to the US and the developed world. IF we want to have a society like Mexico and all the other underdeveloped crap countries lets hike up the population to where it is prohibitively expensive to have law and order or any social services, but that won't matter because we can all call ourselves good liberals who would not risk being called racists to protect the integrity of our economic and social system.
We are finding out that our country does not work - period. So ... what are we going to do about it?
I say - get at the source of the problem. Don't attack the edges and think that others are simply not going to fill those jobs when the first few get deported.
"Ich spreche kein Deutsch" (loosely translated, "I don't speak German.".
Now that WW2 Vet knows about freedom and what this country stands!