Let's Stop Saying God Bless America

Actually, as our world decreases and we know what's happening in remote areas, and as we continue to expand our space missions, perhaps we shoud ask God to Bless our Universe.

Have a blessed and safe weekend.

The real problem is people are brainwashed into thinking god blesses our corporate wars and war profiteering.

And that people are brainwashed into thinking He hates capatilism.

America has never had real capitalism and is ruled by socialism to support what political propaganda calls capitalism.

I like "let us pray that God Blesses America" personally.

Your thoughts make sense to me but for me personally, the phrase is not intended to be a demand but a prayer of supplication. Which is what you are asking for to begin with.

I agree with you Clifford--and remember, 'the thought's the thing',

But we need to be careful of what we are actually saying otherwise we could just be rationalizing our thoughts.

I agree with Clifford. It's always been considered a plea from us to God. I hope every country that follows Him has such songs ... & I believe they do. It isn't that we want Him to bless us and no one else. Humility recognises a need for His blessing.

Politically correct police are leaving their mark Dale. You look too strong to fall for that.

That's it Dale. You explained it well.

"we need to ask, pray, plead with God to show mercy on our country and ourselves for we have all sinned and fallen short of His glory."

So true, Dale! We need ask in all respect, humility and trust. Not demand and/or expect for he owes us nothing yet lovingly gives us everything...

For, after all, put it as we may to ourselves, we are all of us from birth to death guests at a table which we did not spread. The sun, the earth, love, friends, our very breath are parts of the banquet.... Shall we think of the day as a chance to come nearer to our Host, and to find out something of Him who has fed us so long? ~Rebecca Harding Davis

I think you are right about that, God should be asked to bless everyone and not just one country.

You are exactly right Dale... Who are we to demand anything of such a powerful God? We need to ask and then remember to say our Thanks to him...

Actually, to me, the phrase "God Bless You" is essentially a "non-statement."

It is similar to when someone shakes your hand in church and says, "Praise The Lord."

Are they telling you to praise the Lord?? Are they saying that they are praising the Lord?? Are the simply saying that the Lord should be praised?? Or are they merely saying "Praise The Lord" as another way of saying "How Do You Do?"

Think about how many people say "God Bless You" after somebody sneezes......

Whassup with that??

Berf, I don't say that. A sneeze is just an expulsion of wet air and germs and whatever the person's body is being irritated by.

For me to say it, I must feel that the other person has said something or done something that deserves a blessing from God, and it is my hope they get it.

I prefer to say "May G-d richly bless and keep you" instead of "God bless you" and I agree about the sneeze thing.

Biblically speaking, a blessing is something to not be taken lightly... but it does seem as if people don't really know what it means.

Wishing or giving someone a blessing is a wonderful thing. I marvel at God's patience in continuing to bless America when so many have turned from Him. The USA is the most richly blessed country in the world, yet the farthest from God. We see true faith and devotion in people who live in impoverished countries and we should be ashamed.

There is an adage that says "Most people want to serve God, but only in an advisory function." If God needed our advice, He wouldn't be God.

Not being a believer, I have3 never had an issue with the phrase, as most of our Founding Fasthers were Christians, and our Country having a high majority of Christians, it is only a fitting request. Nor have I until now seen a valid arguement against the phrase. I can see where this can be taken as a demand.

Interesting take on this.

No, no Dan ... don't fall for it. It's political speak control! No no no.
& btw, God bless you. :):)

Also, not being a believer, my objection is to the use of any phrase which includes a reference to a higher power...if that phrase is associated with or intended to represent the sentiments of all Americans. My protest is supported by the First Amendment in our Bill of Rights.

Funny - I thought the 1st Amendment said freedom OF religion and not freedom FROM religion. I guess I misread it.

Slim, I disagree. Dale is correct, and everything about this country is based on the Christian thought. So it would only be natural and proper that it would contain references to the Christian God. Don't you think it is time to quit rewriting the Constitution, and start supporting it for once? Because your statement is doing exactly that.
Now if they were saying that we had to believe in the Christian faith, then yes I would disagree with that, been through that before in this country, and I took a stand against it also, and took the attacks too. BUt this is not that issue again.

Dale...Freedom of religion Includes freedom from religion IF the religion is state sponsored. Freedom FROM religion allows for a non belief...no mandate can be made by the government that religion MUST be a part of its citizen's life.

This has been addressed by SCOTUS many. ...maybe these SCOTUS rulings are what you misread...or didn't read.

addressed by SCOTUS many, many times...typo

Dan...You are confusing religious freedom with state sponsored or state endorsed religion. Even if the state does not mandate a region...the state cannot endorse or support a religion...any religion. We can try to sell our religion...or our lack of religion (freedom of speech)...but not with the support of the state (freedom of religion). “Freedom of religion” is distinct from “freedom from religion.” but freedom of religion requires freedom from religion.

It is not true that "everything about this country is based on the Christian thought". Wow...that's a broad sweeping generalization and it is not true.

If you mean that our country was founded on Christian principles...you really need to research your position. Hint..The Constitution is a godless document and the government of the United States was set up as a formally secular institution.

"So it would only be natural and proper that it would contain references to the Christian God."

You would have to define (and defend) "natural and proper" as compulsorily motives based upon historical occurrences used to justify current legislation and practices. But you would then offering the logical fallacy of Appeal to Tradition...which "occurs when it is assumed that something is better or correct simply because it is older, traditional, or "always has been done."

"Now if they were saying that we had to believe in the Christian faith, then yes I would disagree with that,..."

First of all...no one can MAKE any person believe something. But you are still missing the point. It's not what one believes or wishes to have others believe...this is an issue of the state sponsoring or SHOWING PREFERENCE for one religion over another religion or over no religion.

SHOWING PREFERENCE... think about that Dan. This is the issue...
In order to provide the same protection for the religious beliefs of EVERYONE...the state cannot prefer one religion.

Dale, do you think people should have religion forced upon them? Should people have to pay taxes to support some (any) religion? Should those who have no religion be punished?

I am just trying to understand your position here.

Dan..."Not being a believer, I have3 never had an issue with the phrase, as most of our Founding Fasthers [sic]were Christians,..."

You could start your research HERE Dan.

"When the Founders wrote the nation's Constitution, they specified that "no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States." (Article 6, section 3) This provision was radical in its day-- giving equal citizenship to believers and non-believers alike. They wanted to ensure that no single religion could make the claim of being the official, national religion, such as England had. Nowhere in the Constitution does it mention religion, except in exclusionary terms. The words "Jesus Christ, Christianity, Bible, and God" are never mentioned in the Constitution-- not once."

"The Declaration of Independence gives us important insight into the opinions of the Founding Fathers. Thomas Jefferson wrote that the power of the government is derived from the governed. Up until that time, it was claimed that kings ruled nations by the authority of God. The Declaration was a radical departure from the idea of divine authority."


For more about the "Christianity" of our founding fathers...check out what our founding fathers have said about their own beliefs and about their commitment to the protection of our government from the influences of religious agenda.

James Madison..."Experience witnesseth that ecclesiastical establishments, instead of maintaining the purity and efficacy of religion, have had a contrary operation. During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."
- "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785

John Adams..."The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole cartloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity."

Thomas Jefferson..."Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced an inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth."
- "Notes on Virginia"

About George Washington... Historian Barry Schwartz writes: "George Washington's practice of Christianity was limited and superficial because he was not himself a Christian... He repeatedly declined the church's sacraments. Never did he take communion, and when his wife, Martha, did, he waited for her outside the sanctuary... Even on his deathbed, Washington asked for no ritual, uttered no prayer to Christ, and expressed no wish to be attended by His representative." [New York Press, 1987, pp. 174-175]

Benjamin Franklin..."Lighthouses are more helpful than churches."
.
"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason."
-in Poor Richard's Almanac

Thomas Paine..."Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half of the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind."

Ethan Allen..."I have generally been denominated a Deist, the reality of which I never disputed, being conscious I am no Christian, except mere infant baptism makes me one; and as to being a Deist, I know not strictly speaking, whether I am one or not."
preface, Reason the Only Oracle of Man

Abraham Lincoln..."The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my profession."
-Spoken by Abraham Lincoln, quoted by Joseph Lewis

HERE is some additional reference material Dan....if you are really interested.

Slim, I fail to uinderstand this logic. It seems that you feel that because they put in God we trust, that it will force their religion on you? THat would be a sign of mental weakness and fear of your shadow. I do not see it as a threat, but as something that has been part of this country from day one.
Now all because the liberal slant has affected society like a psychological cancer, does not mean I am going to give in to the dementia.
THe phrase neither dose nor has forced a religion upon you, or me or any one else. I am more concerned with Bible Thumpers, than I am a few words that have been on our money for decades.

"The Bible is not my book nor Christianity my profession. I could never give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma." Abraham Lincoln

And remember, this was a man that supported slavery, and used the freedom of slaves only to justify a illegal war on American Citizens.

You still do not "get it' Dan...( "It seems that you feel that because they put in God we trust, that it will force their religion on you?")

It NOT a matter of forcing religion by the state...it is a matter of the state favoring one religion above another religion or the lack of (a) religion.

You have made several unsupported statements Dan...(one is: "most of our Founding Fasthers [sic]were Christians,..." and you have not addressed the challenges I have made to your erroneous claims. And yet you continue to argue this subject in a shotgun manner of shoot and hope something gets hit.

Now about the use of "In God We Trust"..."a few words that have been on our money for decades"...
Using your logic of "its Ok because we have been using the term for many years"...one could have argued FOR the support of slavery because ..the practice was legal for so many years. Or one could have argued that women and Blacks should not have been allowed the right to vote....after all...it was not legal for so many years.

This is the logical fallacy I mentioned earlier..the fallacy of Appeal to Tradition.

So...let's see where we stand. You have argued that this country was founded by Christians...not true.

You have argued that a practice should be considered legitimate IF that practice has been in use for many years....not logical or true.

You said..."I do not see it as a threat (the motto "In God We Trust"), but as something that has been part of this country from day one."
Again...not true. The motto was first used on the 1864 two-cent coin. The motto was not used on paper money until 1957.

If you would like to actually debate this topic...I am willing...but this will be the my last response to unsupported rhetoric. No offense...but you are all over the map Dan...and you are not addressing the issue...you are running from it and tossing up smoke screens in your wake (the Lincoln remark has nothing to do with this topic...it is a diversion).

Slim, does rewriting the history of the Country make the truth less important?
To say that they were not Christians, is a fallacy in itself. The majority of them believed in some way that the Bible was true. even Jefferson who questioned it a lot, was a believer. The ones that say he was not, are doing so by omitting many statements by him. If you refuse to accept some statements, and accept only the ones that fit your view, does that make you more correct than me? Because that is what you are saying.
Many of the Founding Fathers questioned the word of God, because they lived in a time where the power of the church had become so corrupt, that many were not sure if what the Churches taught was true or not. So yes, many learned and intelligent people did question. That did not an any means mean they did not believe, that is just part of the Liberal Cancer of misinformation.

Slim - the more you go on, the more you show your intolerance which is what you accuse Christians of.

Dan..."Slim, does rewriting the history of the Country make the truth less important?"

What does this mean Dan? The truth is the goal..or it should be.

"To say that they were not Christians, is a fallacy in itself. The majority of them believed in some way that the Bible was true."

To say WHO were not Christians? The framing fathers or the general population of this new country?

"even Jefferson who questioned it a lot, was a believer. The ones that say he was not, are doing so by omitting many statements by him."

What statements Dan?

"Jefferson was always reluctant to reveal his religious beliefs to the public, but at times he would speak to and reflect upon the public dimension of religion. He was raised as an Anglican, but was influenced by English deists such as Bolingbroke and Shaftesbury. Thus in the spirit of the Descent from the Cross by Frans Floris; photographed by Edward Owen.Enlightenment, he made the following recommendation to his nephew Peter Carr in 1787: "Question with boldness even the existence of God; because if there be one, he must more approve the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear." In Query XVII of Notes on the State of Virginia, he clearly outlines the views which led him to play a leading role in the campaign to separate church and state and which culminated in the Statute of Virginia for Religious Freedom: "The rights of conscience we never submitted, we could not submit. We are answerable for them to our God. The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg . . . . Reason and free inquiry are the only effectual agents against error." Jefferson's religious views became a major public issue during the bitter party conflict between Federalists and Republicans in the late 1790s when Jefferson was often accused of being an atheist."

"Many of the Founding Fathers questioned the word of God, because they lived in a time where the power of the church had become so corrupt, that many were not sure if what the Churches taught was true or not. So yes, many learned and intelligent people did question."

Now we're getting somewhere. MANY of the founding fathers, although not specific, does denote a non all inclusive group. Many of the Christians of today question the word of god...so I don't understand the intent or relevance of your statement.

BUT..you have brought up a very important point... "they lived in a time where the power of the church had become so corrupt", and this is one of the reasons most of our framing fathers fought so diligently to keep government and religion separate. They FEARED the consequences of a religious control of our country....and a specific religious preference by our government enables religious control by the preferred religion.

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

American democracy begins with the stipulation that the authority for our government comes from the people...not from god. "We the People".

The only way Dan...for the guarantee of freedom of religion to be a viable guarantee....is if ALL religions and lack of religion are guaranteed the same degree of protection and with NO preference by our government.

Dale..."Slim - the more you go on, the more you show your intolerance which is what you accuse Christians of."

How so Dale? How am I showing my intolerance and what intolerance would that be? Also, when I have accused Christians of intolerance? Please be specific.

We all offer various degrees of intolerance for concepts which which we do not agree. But I can also demonstrate that intolerance is not necessarily a negative emotion.

Would you say you are tolerant of all people and all beliefs Dale? I suggest that you should think about this before you speak.

Tell me this Dale. Would you be tolerant of my sentiments as an atheist to be inscribed on our money?..how about this?..."American The Godless Country".

How about the sentiments of the religion of Islam? It's a monotheistic religion. How about ""Righteous is he who believes in Allah and the Last Day and the Angels and the Scriptures and the Prophets."

How about we put the Wiccan pentacle symbol on our government buildings?

This is about the separation of the church and state Dale...not about an attack on any religion or an effort to put a strangle hold on any religion. You want your Christian slogans and images and symbols because you are Christian...are you not? What about the religions of others? You don't want others speaking for you...do you? Then why should you be able to speak for them? But this is exactly what state sponsored Christianity is...some people, the Christians, speaking for everyone and using the sanction of the government to help facilitate their effort.

I never looked at it as telling God to do something, or even stating that he does as fact. I always thought it was more of a prayer of sorts in an abbreviation... pretty much what you are saying, only shorter?
My thoughts anyway.

Thanks, John. Good to see you're still around Gather.

Dale,
Look at it a little different. Take the Lord's Prayer.

Our father who art in Heaven
Hallowed by thy name
Thy Kingdom come
Thy will be done
on earth as it is in heaven
Give us this day our daily bread
forgive us our treaspasses
as we forgive those who treaspass against us.
Lead us not into temptation
but deliver us from evil
For thine is the Kingdom, the power and the Glory, forever and ever
Amen.

Each line is an emphatical statement of fact, faith and devotion.

God Bless America
God Bless our soldier Dale too.

There is of course a difference. One is praising God, definately asking for God's will, knowing what God's true desire is for all of us.
But compare it to .... I would love to hand you the verse, but I pulled my back out and I'm stuck on my back, and in bed right now... ouch... All three of my bibles are in my living room...
THe two brother, Esau and Jacob (?) their father's blessing of Jacob. The father knew the power of giving a blessing. He couldn't take it back once it was said. Did God put the blessing in his mouth for the wrong son? Many times throughout the Old Test. believers gave blessings. They blessed treaties even. Usually those things go to the firstborn.
When you bless something you bring it to God's attention and ask for his hand to be on it. That doesn't mean you will oppose God or that you are asking for God to bless do what you want. It means you are blessing it for God's attention, which God's attention is on it anyway. It's just a prayer, and God says when more believers agree, he will give it.

God Bless America.