18 Dead from Swine Flu in Kentucky - Are You in the Target Group for Early Vaccine?

did you hear about the cat?

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/11/05/the-cat-who-got-swine-flu/

Ferrets get it, too. :\

Interesting. Around here, I'm told I don't need it. I'm 55 and get bronchitis if you so much as look at me. :\

That's a lot of people dead. What ages were they?

I'll have to see if I can find that. Cats? Ferrets? Now I'm really worried. They don't do vaccinations for little pets, I'm guessing. I hope people aren't going to lose their pets.

One was a woman in her fifties, that's all I know so far. They are holding children's vaccination clinics here - I know several kids have died here.

No vaccines for pets. They don't have enough for people, no way you're going to shake anything loose for animals (despite the fact that ferrets were used in H1N1 research).

People running ferret shelters in bad areas are pretty much shutting down and refused to take ferrets out anywhere.

Bad, as in "hit hard" not like "dangerous to walk at night" :)

Cuz if you were in a place dangerous to walk at night, you'd want your ferret with you.

I'm glad people are taking precautions - my cats don't even go outside, so they should be OK unless I get it. I'm hoping I qualify for high-risk. I usually do, at least for regular flu shots.

There are people who never get flu shots going to get this one, and they keep running out.

I'm obviously a world away from Kentucky ... but

Swine flu vaccines will arrive at my GP surgery tomorrow. I have an appt to get my annual flu jab on 21 November, which I had a week or so ago, simply because I was visiting surgery for another matter and the nurse suggested that, as a high risk patient, I should have the winter flu jab at that time. She asked me not to cancel my end-Nov appt as she feels that I will be asked to book another appt for the H1N1 jab.

Where do you live?

Here in Illinois we have had some deaths as well. I will find the statistics for you.

I'm glad that you're doing this H1N1 reporting, Sarah. Too many people are not paying enough attention to the problem.

I'm hoping that when people see that folks are actually dying, they'll re-think the vaccine issue.

Eighteen people dead from swine flu in a state of four million? That's scary stuff, Sarah.

It is, Sue, given how early in the flu season it is. Nice to see a sensible response from you.

"According to a news report in the New York Post, one person died every 30 hours in New York City as a result of fatal traffic accidents. New York City crashes killed 292 pedestrians, drivers, passengers, bicyclists and motorcyclist in 2008."

This is far more frightening to me, and there is no vaccine for it.

Except, of course, that the flu deaths are going to happen in addition to the regular death toll. Just because lots of people are dying doesn't mean it's OK for lots more to die, too.

That's not the point, of course. There is this huge flurry of fright because of something that might happen when things that are happening are taken as a matter of fact. You don't find it odd that once every 30 hours another death occurs from a fatal car accident in the hub of the country, but there probably isn't one post about this on Gather, yet there are probably 100 posts about a supposed pandemic that might never even materialize?

The difference is

a) These deaths are outside our normal experience
b) History has shown us that the death toll could be huge
c) These deaths are preventable.

a)Sickness is not outside our normal experience.

b)We don't have any history of this particular strain of flu.

c) Auto fatalities are also preventable.

Pandemic is certainly outside our normal experience. While we don't have (and never do have, given how fast these virus mutate) data on this particular flu we can extrapolate from the number of early victims and our knowledge of other flus.

If you know how to prevent auto fatalities, the City of New York would love to hear from you.

Also important is the economic impact of having so many people sick and out of work, and so many many requiring medical care. With our economy just now on the upswing, this economic burden comes at a very bad time.

We're talking about death, and I have far more chance of being in an auto fatality in NYC than I do dying from the swine flu. Certainly all auto fatalities are not going to be prevented, and neither is all disease. There can be significant reduction and, if this were not the case, there would be no reason for technology like front and side air bags, rapid response communication devices like OnStar, seat belt laws, hands free cell phone laws, etc.

Yes, pandemic is outside our normal experience which makes it a condition for which we know relatively little about. That is one of the main reasons for the great concern and the anxiety. Of course, what you point out as far as the economic impact, that's part of what makes it a pandemic. Without that aspect it wouldn't be defined as such. Herewe see that bird flu caused no US fatalities in 2003. Look at these headlines and the article in 2005.

From what I have read about this swine flu, it is really a rather mild virus unless your immune system is inadequate. I'm not even quite sure I didn't have a touch of it. For the first time in years, this past summer I experienced about two and half days of extreme nasal and head congestion. I had no symptoms in my lungs though. I have no allergies, and colds commonly run a course of 7 to 10 days, and this was far less time, but very uncomfortable throughout the time I experienced it. Because I don't get colds either, I don't know whether or not this was just a cold virus that my body fought off quickly. I don't know what this was, but I do know that it was different from any colds I have experienced before as I remember them.

Because of the way I take care of myself, and being aware of what I put into my body for me to allow myself to be injected with the kinds of carcinogens in this vaccine doesn't make sense for me. I have never said that someone absolutely should not get the vaccine because the vaccines are created for the masses whose immune systems are not mine, and because of other illnesses they may have, medications they are taking that reduce immunity, diets, obesity, and so many other factors that make them susceptible not only to the flu itself, but complications that are the real cause of death, it would be irresponsible of me to say that they should do anything but consult with their own caregivers. Plenty of physicians see absolutely no use in taking vitamin and mineral supplements, and if you're talking about a multi-vitamin, they're correct. Doctors are like car mehcanics for humans. Just as you get your oil changed, doctors suggest a balanced diet and exercise, but they aren't nutritionists, and so they don't customize diets and exercise programs for their patients. They wait for symptoms and attempt to fix the squeaks and malfunctions after they appear. If someone has been subsciribing to this kind of basic and status quo care, they can't suddenly decide not to get an H1N1 vaccine.

Sue B.© The Sting IS Worse Than the Buzz Nov 11, 2009, 1:19am EST

b)We don't have any history of this particular strain of flu.


perhaps you would like to look up the history of swine flu sometime. here's a handy link for you. has it mutated over the years? possibly, but then again a lot of viruses will do that in order to survive.

no one is forced to get the vaccine, but if someone chooses to have, they should be able to.

here's another link with more detail.

All flu strains feature a fever of 102 or more, muscle aches, and respiratory symptoms. If you don't have the fever you probably don't have the flu.

In most people H1N1 is no worse than seasonal flu. That doesn't mean it's hard to tell from a cold.

Exactly. So why all the concern? The historic influenza pandemic of 1918 started out with mild symptoms, as has this strain of H1N1. When it returned the following winter it was much more virulent and lethal. That pattern could easily recur with this virus, which more closely mimics the epidemiology of the 1918 flu than our seasonal flu.

I tell my nine-year-old that I know he just has the common cold and not the flu because he has no fever. In his case, I'm pretty sure that's true. (No headache or general malaise either.)

But... for example, I never have a fever above 100--so I've either never had the flu, or I can have the flu, with all the other symptoms, with just mild rise in temperature. (In fact, I might have had Dengue Fever without fever. I had all the other symptoms, and there was an outbreak at the time, involving several people in my environment.)

If his muscles are not tender and he's not having trouble breathing he doesn't have influenza.

Oh, I know he doesn't. Where I come from, we call what he has bilateral school-loathing. :-)

John Beck: "When it returned the following winter it was much more virulent and lethal. That pattern could easily recur with this virus, which more closely mimics the epidemiology of the 1918 flu than our seasonal flu."

Yah, it's nothing to sneeze at (hehe). Three of the four members of our family qualify under the guidelines, and I get nothing but shrugs from the pharmacists that I talk to. As you point out, the 1918 flu was a strain of H1N1.

Sarah, even though you aren't getting a lot of comments, I can tell you that I use your articles as talking points. I have a college student in the household and I've advised him to get the shot if they offer it on campus. The son younger than that one is among the "don't trust vaccines" crowd, so I'm not having any luck with him. The rest of us are not in the "at risk" group by all accounts.

I know how hard it is to tell the college-age crowd anything... but I'm glad you're using the info.

And Glen Beck &
Sean Hannity were actively discouraging their listners from the vaccine.

Good post, My son and his wife will get vaccines for their littleones as soon as it is available in their area.

One can only wish that anyone who takes their advice and loses a kid could successfully sue, but I'm not dumb enough to think that would happen.

They should be taken off the air and ridden out on a rail.

"One can only wish that anyone who takes their advice and loses a kid could successfully sue, but I'm not dumb enough to think that would happen."

Hmm . . I don't suppose you're offering up any significant compensation for any that lose their kid to the vaccines effects, after taking your advice, Sarah? . . . Oh, no, that's right, just about everybody connected to this mystical pandemic, is immune from . . courtitus, I hear ; )

What a crock! Scare people that their kid might die of the flu vaccine? Give me a break! There's nothing mystical about the pandemic--the H1N1 already meets those criteria. The vaccine can prevent it from being a pandemic of sweeping proportions. Sarah's points are based upon fact. Opposing comments are based on fear and misinformation.

The reason the vaccine makers are free from indemnity is that sometimes, very rarely, kids die from the vaccine - not from the (gasp!) mercury, but because they contract the virus. This risk in inherent in every vaccine, not just H1N1. It's a very, very small risk, but it's a known risk that parents take in exchange for the significant benefits of immunizing their children. It has nothing to do with the witch-hunt voodoo of the shameful Hannity and Beck crowd.

Those very rare vaccine deaths are presumably in individuals who would be most likely to die from the native virus.

they have a murcury free version of the vaccine for those who don't want to risk the possible poisoning.

John,

"What a crock! Scare people that their kid might die of the flu vaccine?"


Do you think such things don't happen? Consider, please;

"The BCG vaccine, which aims to prevent tuberculosis among children in developing countries, might be causing illness and death among some HIV-positive infants, researchers said on Friday, the Los Angeles Times reports. The findings are included in a report about the HIV/TB co-epidemic released Thursday by the Forum for Collaborative HIV Research (Los Angeles Times, 11/3). The report said that the "benefits of potentially preventing severe TB" among HIV-positive infants are "outweighed by the risks associated with the use of BCG vaccine."

The World Health Organization previously recommended that all healthy infants receive the BCG vaccine as soon as possible after birth. However, the agency released a report in May 2007 changing its position because of evidence that HIV-positive infants had an increased risk of developing BCG disease. The BCG vaccine is based on a weakened strain of the bacterium that causes TB in cattle. Many of the infants who receive the vaccine are born HIV-positive and subsequently have compromised immune systems that make them susceptible to BCG disease, which is caused by the bovine bacterium in the vaccine (Khamsi, NewScientist.com, 11/2).

One study found that the vaccine had a 75% mortality rate among children with BCG disease and that 70% of those children were HIV-positive, Mark Cotton -- co-author of the forum's report and an HIV/AIDS researcher at Stellenbosch University in South Africa -- said (Fox, Reuters, 11/2).

http://www.kaisernetwork.org/Daily_reports/rep_index.cfm?DR_ID=48672


These are complex matters, and all vaccines carry risks . .

Vaccines do carry risks. The BCG vaccine was in another era. The risk of serious illness from the H1N1 influenza vaccine is negligible compared to the risk of the H1N1 influenza becoming far more virulent and deadly than it is now.

John,

"Vaccines do carry risks."

Right, so it is not a "crock" to speak of such risks, right?

"The risk of serious illness from the H1N1 influenza vaccine is negligible . . "

It is not possible to know that, until AFTER the vaccine has been administered on a large scale. Just declaring the risks neglegable, has no meaning at this point . .

" . . compared to the risk of the H1N1 influenza becoming far more virulent and deadly than it is now."

Sorta, but you see, if the virus mutates significantly, the vaccines we are now speaking of may have virtually no up-side anyway, so any down-side risk would then stand alone, as pointless risk.

As I said, these are very complex matters, not addressable in a cookie-cutter fashion, simply proclaiming that any vaccine is better than no vaccine . . . We cannot know that with anything like certainty, and that's why I find it misleading to speak of all who warn about the dangers they believe they are seeing in relation to how this whole "pandemic" is being dealt with, are kooks or charletons . . . Some are highly qualified experts in this field, and if their warnings turn out to have been justified, as similar warnings have in the past (like the situation I cited above), then they will have been concerned experts, that saw the problems first, as some experts are bound to be whenever things don't go as planned or hoped . .

It's not only developing countries that routinely give the BCG vaccine to newborns--most countries still do (though there's been a debate about its efficacy in several places recently).

I'm surprised they ever thought HIV-positive babies should get it, though. I guess that was specific to areas where the prevalence of TB is very high, because anywhere else the risk would clearly outweigh the benefits.

I can say that our son was officially classified as having swine flu, even though he was never tested. In our state, ALL cases of flu were classified as swine flu. He got tamiflu and cipro and was well quite soon. However, I don't trust the statistics. He was not particularly ill so I'm not even sure he had swine flu.

They're doing this in all states with the stats, Jo, and that's another piece of the puzzle of the big picture of how this scare is playing out.

When I first saw your comment, I thought, why did they prescribe Cipro, an antibiotic, for your son for Swine flu? Cipro, like other antibiotics, is only effective for bacterial infections, not for viruses such as Swine Flu. I wondered if they had detected an infection as well, whether they were just covering all the bases, or whether they were using it as a precaution against possible infection that might result from complications. (and the last two possibilities are very bad and irresponsible medicine)

I looked it up to see whether it is SOP for them to be doing this, and apparently it is. Certainly, if someone has a tooth pulled they are often prscribed an antibiotic to prevent infection, and there are certainly other instances when prevention of infection warrants an antibiotic, but to be indiscriminately prescibing an antibiotic for what they don't even know is Swine Flu when no bacterial infection has been detected, leaves a whole population at risk for building immunity to an antibiotic so that when and if it is needed in the future to kill a bacterial infection its efficacy may be less so or impotent altogether.

More on Cipro

Please don't let this alarm you at all, Jo, because I am sure your son will be just fine, but I know that these drugs come with the contraindications microscopically hidden in a pamphlet about the drug that most people never read, so it's good to be aware, at least.

I'm a little surprised at the use of Cipro unless he was also diagnosed with a bacterial infection.

Nippy (wow, getting used to this new Gather format), it is par for the course here. Only a few select hospitals test for the disease. The rest? They assume the worst and treat for all possibilities. Just to be clear, my son is in his late teens and has no underlying related health conditions or risks, unless one consider being a teen to be a major risk factor in and of itself.

Healthy children are dying from H1N1 - so your son is at risk, even though he's healthy. I doubt what you say re: hospitals is true. My local hospitals test and report, and we're a very poor state.

Sarah - I can't absolutely dispute your statement about hospitals testing. I can, however, tell you that we were told by a doctor that most hospitals were not testing. I can also refer you to newspaper sources which note that in Indiana, only a certain number of selected hospitals or medical groups tested for the H1N1 strain. Why? Because the test results were not instant and we were told (by the same doctor) that Tamiflu needed to be taken within 24 hours of symptoms showing up.

All that I note that I was told is accurate. Whether it is based on medical truth is another matter -and by that I mean...did my son have to take Tamiflu within 24 hours to get the maximum effect if he had H1N1? Why was he given Cipro? Why didn't they test him for swine flu, if only to have more accurate statistics about how many people had it?

I was very alarmed about giving my son these drugs. In fact, I wrote an article about it but I don't know if I'm allowed to link it here (Gather's TOS?) In any case, he was ill enough that I didn't want to take a chance. However, I had a major reaction to an antibiotic this year and had to have my gallbladder removed because it set off liver and gallbladder inflammation.

I'd rather have KNOWN whether my son had flu or an infection before pulling out the big guns of antibiotics -and Cipro is a big gun, according to the doctors - not to be used lightly.

You don't give antibiotics for flu - they don't work. If your son wasn't tested, how would they know if he had a secondary infection? I question whether your hospital would be that irresponsible. Most aren't, especially with antibiotics because we are running out of effective ones.

More likely you misunderstood what was said. Testing for flu can take time. Bacterial infections are much easier to diagnose.

I did not misunderstand what was said. Why would a doctor prescribe BOTH Tamiflu and Cipro. If a bacterial infection was truly diagnosed, we wouldn't have been given Tamiflu, would we? The doctor tested for strep and mono. My son had neither. At that point, the decision was made to give those drugs. I have the receipt. I'm going to look for the info that shows how few people were tested for H1N1 but were treated for it anyway. I know there are plenty of articles out there about that.

It does sound like the Cipro was given prophylacticly. If your son has no history to justify that (my brother, for example, did develop pneumonia every time he did not get antibiotics for anything), that was wrong. Things like that do happen.

Here, you can read a little about it at my blog, which is not montetized: I'll see if the link shows up. Disclaimer: if you click on the link TO the article and read the article, that site is monetized but it isn't my site or anything. I just wrote the article there.

Well, I don't know what went wrong. Trying again Swine flu scare

"Here is where things began to get confusing. My son was tested for possible Strep throat but the results were negative. I asked the doctor if my son could be tested for Swine Flu. The answer? The center didn't routinely test for Swine Flu but prescribed medications to treat the disease." I'd say it's incredible, but it's what I have read from others that is commonly happening, and that makes it unfortunately all too credible.

So very sorry to hear about your own antibiotic reaction that caused such a major problem for you. I have to think that they must have asked whether you had any known reactions to the medication before they prescribed it, but I'm wondering whether you still might have legal recourse for what you endured.

Sue,
I'd never taken the drug before and there were no signs this could happen. However, it is a sign that everyone's body is different and all drugs have risks.

It should certainly serve as a warning, especially to a grossly overmedicated society that is so naively trusting of mainstream medical advice and prescription.

Or you can listen to Sue and run screaming in fear without the facts. Believing her would be naive...

I don't wish to participate in an argument between you two. I have no idea why there is such antagonism or anger here. I only know what I was told and I did NOT misunderstand it. It does take time for swine flu tests to come back. Not all hospitals or express care centers test for it but they see plenty of kids with symptoms. That is what I was told. I'm sorry you don't believe me.

Jo, you do sound like you know exactly what you were told and what it means.

If you're sure that's what they told you, then I believe you, I'm just surprised. I would have thought the hospital would have tested. Perhaps it was earlier in the pandemic? I know that the reporting to the CDC is voluntary, which is why we expect under-reporting rather than the other way around. But this is a national emergency brewing, so I would think the hospital would cooperate.

I know mine do because the swine flu deaths are reported in the paper with the hospital listed.

I'm only angry because so much misinformation has been spread on this website, and discouraging people from getting vaccinated is very dangerous indeed. There are some who continue to disseminate misinformation despite having it refuted by reputable sources over and over. You'll find a lot of us are very, very frustrated by this.

hundreds of people die every day from flu like symptoms. we all have to be careful, but maybe we are going a little to fast on this. the shot for swine flu may cause bad side affects in the years to come. remember 1976 in the USA. and now the U.S. gov't won't be responsible for anything that happens. maybe this is a way to rid the world of a lot of people-think about this!!!!!!

I myself am frustrated. I'm frustrated that our son was given an antibiotic and Tamiflu. I'm frustrated that he was clearly in pain but couldn't get a diagnosis. I'm frustrated that my request for a swine flu test was denied and that I was told they don't give them. We have since been notified that vaccines are scheduled to be given within a week or two at school. However, they may run out before then. Misinformation runs rampant. My husband was able to get a flu shot at Costco and now we are being told none will be in stock at that particular location for the rest of the season. I wonder if even that is true.

guy - whatever are you talking about? There are no "future bad side effects" to flu shots. What do you think we've been talking about, here? Millions of people have gotten flu shots and nothing bad has happened to them later that can be attributed to the shot - by now we would know.

Flu-like symptoms? You mean achy muscles and fever, don't you? But H1N1 has a very distinctive set of symptoms and experienced doctors are unlikely to be labeling the common cold as flu or anything else as flu, regardless of what conspiracy theorists are telling you. By the time they've seen a hundred flu cases, they can probably diagnose it from across the room. Which, of course, they don't.

Jo - I hadn't realized that you requested a test - if you asked for a swine flu test and were denied it, you have every right to be furious - I'd look for a different hospital; yours is clearly trying to duck the onus of having deaths attributed to swine flu laid at their door. I wondered if that would happen, and from your story it sounds as though it has.

Do you think he was misdiagnosed? Didn't you say he got better? Or was that just "he got better because time passed"?

If you check above, you can actually see the article I wrote. It details our experience. Here is the link again, hope it shows. I am not URGING anyone to read that unless the exact info is desired, start to finish. our experience, but you have to click to see article where it says CLICK HERE

To answer your questions, Sarah. I don't know if he was misdiagnosed but I do know that if I KNEW he had H1N1, I would not have him get the shot. Why should I? Wouldn't that be depriving someone else of the same shot, especially since we have had shortages of those shots? Finally, he got better nearly overnight but I don't know if it was the Tamiflu or Cipro. Knowing which medication worked would certainly have let me know if it was a flu or bacterial infection, wouldn't it?

I'm no expert. I'm still learning.

Oh, and I did want to add that while it was a very different situation, we live in a home where a woman got polio from changing her baby's diaper - live polio used in that shot. These situations are very, very rare. I want to stress that. However, it did happen. I would assume reactions to flu shots are very, very rare but I don't have the info about how quickly they put out the H1N1 flu shot and I do wonder why people are scared of this shot. THe option for the shot is being offered at our son's school but (so far) info I've gotten is that signed permission forms aren't exactly flooding in. Why?