Maine Gay Marriage Vote Results

You don't have the right to have something that belongs to someone else.

You don't have the right to change the definition of something that has existed for thousands of centuries.

You don't have the right to redefine my relationship to validate your own.

You DO have the right to civil unions. That IS what every gay person SAID they wanted years ago and they got it. Now it's not good enough. So work on reforming civil unions!

"You don't have the right to have something that belongs to someone else."

Marriage belongs to someone? Who knew? Certainly civil marriage belongs to the state.

"You don't have the right to change the definition of something that has existed for thousands of centuries."

I don't know that marriage has been defined exactly the same for hundreds of thousands of years. I suspect there have been some little variations here and there.

"You don't have the right to redefine my relationship to validate your own."

How does same sex marriage do that?

Something "belongs" to the people who possess it.--- and right now, heterosexuals possess the right to the union of marriage. And it has been defined as between a man and a wife since the beginning of time. Same sex marriage would change the definition to "just any two people" and it is just a sad attempt to make a homosexual union appear to have the validation of a heterosexual union. This is the whole point behind this fight--- otherwise civil unions would be acceptable terminology for homosexuals. Let's get "civil unions" to offer the same protection as "marriage" and stop the fighting. Or is that unacceptable to gays-- and why?

Separate but equal, eh Sandra?

ah Ken--- just call it something different. We get marriage. You guys get "civil unions" or "gay union" or whatever you want. Live and let live. But marriage is for heteros. Always has been. And in God's eyes, at least, always will be.

People will never be able to erase God's condemnation on homosexuality. And those of us that fear a Holy God will stay on that side.

God created homosexuals too. Are you saying he made a mistake?
Please don't presume to tell me what's "in God's eyes" You don't know.
What we do know, however, is that Jesus would not condone your attitude.

Thousands of centuries. Is that like several times 100,000 years? Wow.

Of course, on this continent, Native Americans are the ones to have been here thousands of centuries. They tended to respect and admire gay men. Want to go back?

Marriage has been defined in many ways by the hundreds of cultures we know about. Polygamous marriages (like those of the Mormons in the 1800s) had women marrying women and one man. If the husband died, the women were still married to each other.

More societies have had plural marriage than have had only monogamy.

Just because we don't know about some form of marriage doesn't mean that it didn't happen.

Moreover, what we don't know is anything about marriage "thousands of centuries ago", so to claim that marriage as Sandra defines it has existed since then is as ludicrous as claiming to know the mind of God.

"Something "belongs" to the people who possess it.--- and right now, heterosexuals possess the right to the union of marriage. "

Proof? Deed, title, physical possession...?

It's like this, Nippy. If some people are free and some are slaves, the free people possess freedom, and the slaves don't, right? So the slaves have no right to steal that freedom from... I mean, to share that freedom with... or however this works, the free people. How dare they!

oh, please! Since when are gay people slaves? Erroneous arguments will not add anything to this issue other than irritation and inflammation.

To change the entire meaning/purpose/definition of marriage to suit one group of individuals is obviously going to upset the people who have vested interest in that union.

The progress of gay and lesbian folks toward full civil rights has accelerated, despite a few set-backs in places where ignorant and fearful people can stil be cowered into thinking that equal rights takes something away from them.

The irrational ideas in the first comment are far less common among younger and well-educated persons for whom gay marriage is a matter of common sense and basic fairness.

The first commenter's marriage must be pretty shaky if the actions of strangers can affect it. What are you really afraid of?

Speaking of fairness, Sandra, I don't know your educational level or whether you are fearful or ignorant, or whether your marriage is shaky.

However, I do disagree with you that broadening the definition of marriage of necessity takes something away from you that belongs to you. The form, "Mr. and Mrs." is still acceptable usage and signifies a heterosexual union.

I also disagree with your statement, "People will never be able to erase God's condemnation on homosexuality. And those of us that fear a Holy God will stay on that side." I believe that Jesus himself invalidated it in Matthew 15:1-20. In it, Jesus says that breaking with traditional forms of behavior (even when proscribed by OT law) do not make one "unclean;" what comes from the heart is what is important.

Look at what blacks had to do in the 50's......we need to do the same ...perhaps a strike in June.......the entire month.....gay vacation! no flowers, no catering, no hairdressing, no make up, no muscic, no work.....and that's just the stereotyped gay jobs.....in a lovely month....known for weddings. ........for the entire month....just do as the republicans do JUST SAY NO!


....and only frequent gay businesses.

Dave, I am not fearful, nor ignorant. And my marriage is fine, thank you very much. Biting comments like those only further degrade your argument.

And you probably would do best to choose someone other than me to debate scripture. For you are using Jesus' words out of context. Taking random scriptures out without studying them in context is a risky business. For example, your scripture cuts the discussion Jesus was having in half. The REST of the scripture was:

...for out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. These are what make a man 'unclean'; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him 'unclean.' " --Matt 15:19-20

Obviously, what comes from the heart is NOT what is important--- since murder, adultery, sexual immorality, etc, come out of the heart.

Jesus taught marriage between one woman and one man and even directly shocked everyone by forbidding divorce.

But the point of the original question was about equality.

WE HOLD THESE TRUTHS TO BE SELF EVIDENT THAT ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL: THAT THEY ARE ENDOWED BY THEIR CREATOR WITH CERTAIN UN-ALIENABLE RIGHTS AND THAT AMONG THESE IS LIFE, LIBERTY AND THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS.

If we are going to quote the constitution, let's show the rest. Our un-alienable rights are endowed by OUR CREATOR. We all equally have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. No one is denying anyone that.

Just as our sexual propensities are labeled homo or hetero, let our unions have equally distinguishing terms.

HEY -- GOOD NEWS Check out what happened in the state of Washington. They gave ALL the same protections as marriage to the Same Sex Civil Unions!

This seems like a perfect compromise. Can anyone tell me why it wouldn't be the answer to this battle between us?

Sandra, my point was that others had used those characterizations, and I did not find them fair.

If you carefully check the passage that I cited, you'll note that I included verses 19-20. I completely disagree with your statement that "what comes from the heart is NOT what is important"--we certainly hope that what comes out of the heart is love and generosity, but whatever it is, good or bad, is important, and that is the point that Jesus is making.

"Don't you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man 'unclean.' For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. These are what make a man 'unclean'; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him 'unclean.' " (Mt 15:17-20 NIV)

You say that "Jesus taught marriage between one woman and one man..." but you don't provide a scripture reference. May I have that, please?

I think others have addressed your last question above. Your position is noted.

RE: Jesus teaching marriage between one woman and one man:

Matthew 19:4-6
Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,' and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'? So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."

Mark 10:4-12
They said, "Moses permitted a man to write a certificate of divorce and send her away."
"It was because your hearts were hard that Moses wrote you this law," Jesus replied. "But at the beginning of creation God 'made them male and female.' 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.' So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."
When they were in the house again, the disciples asked Jesus about this. He answered, "Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery."

Nowhere in His teachings on marriage and divorce did Jesus mention anything except between a man and a woman. This was what He taught. In fact, the thought of no divorce so upset the disciples that they at one point declare "If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry." (Matt 19:10) We know that there were homosexuals even in ancient biblical times since they are mentioned multiple times in the bible. He could have included them if He chose. He didn't because that's not what marriage was about.

And regarding the human heart:
"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" ---Jeremiah 17:9

The bible teaches that the human heart is only filled with wickedness, deceit and nothing good. Check out what Jesus quoted from our "Old Testament" in Romans 3:10-18

And when they asked Jesus what good thing they could do to have eternal life, Jesus said "Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments." Matt 19:17

Unfortunately, man left to his own devices will only do either wickedness or what appears as good except the motives are not pure. THAT'S the human heart without God.

Nowhere in His teachings on marriage and divorce was Jesus asked about gay marriage. Based on the scriptural record, He obviously didn't think it was a problem that needed calling out. (Paul's pronouncements can be discussed, but I'll save space by noting that they too focus primarily on the state of a person's heart and the quality of relationships.)

Regarding the scripture references you've mentioned:

Matthew 19:4-6. That passage is Jesus' answer to a specific question: ""Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?" (Mt. 19:3b NIV) He was asked about a heterosexual marriage and gives an answer specifically tailored to the question. Divorces were pretty much "no fault" back then and women who were left behind were at serious risk of becoming destitute. Jesus' stand here was controversial because it emphasized commitment and care, and an end to a dehumanizing practice.

Mark 10:4-12. Same scenario. Let's pick up the context by starting a couple of verses earlier:

Some Pharisees came and tested him by asking, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?" "What did Moses command you?" he replied. They said, "Moses permitted a man to write a certificate of divorce and send her away." "It was because your hearts were hard that Moses wrote you this law," Jesus replied. (Mark 10:2-5 NIV)

You said, "The bible teaches that the human heart is only filled with wickedness, deceit and nothing good."

Jesus spoke frequently about the state of the human heart, and by no means did He speak of it as being beyond redemption.

"Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God." (Mt. 5:8 NIV)

In terms of money (the most frequently-discussed topic in the NT), He said,

"Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.... "No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money." (Mt 6:19-21;24 NIV)

God has given us the "knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven" (cf Mt. 13:11a NIV) through his teaching, and placed it in our hearts. But we are at risk. "When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart." (Matthew 13:19a)

In the context of this discussion thread, we ought be guided by Jesus' most important advice:

Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' (Mt. 22:37-39 NIV)