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by WM H.
Member since:
November 16, 2005

Losing Your Religion: Footprints (October 30, 2009)

October 30, 2009 08:52 PM EDT (Updated: November 16, 2009 05:07 PM EST)
views: 712 | comments: 402

This is a Gather forum for discussing religion and spirituality.  Sharing our spiritual beliefs is one small step towards building a better world. 

This ongoing discussion began in June, 2008 with the publication of the Losing Your Religion Series.

The discussion rules are the same as on earlier posts:

1. Share your spiritual and religious beliefs but respect the beliefs of other participants.

 2. LISTEN carefully and try to see other participants' points of view, no matter how different from your own.

 

 3. Please don't "preach" or attempt to convert anyone else to your viewpoint.

Episode 130  

Photo Credits: Thanks to Boris G. for keeping this series supplied with great images.

 

 

 

Footprints

 

Frequent contributor to the LYR group, Richard Regener asks the question, “Have you ever considered what the foot prints of your life will leave behind for future generations?”

 

 This question has me looking both backward, at the legacy left by my father, and forward, at the legacy I will leave for my children. 

 

 

 When I think of my father, I see positive lessons and examples that I have internalized and strive to emulate and pass on to my children.  I also see what might be called negative lessons; behaviors that did not serve him well and that are best avoided.  I suspect that a serious examination of the footprints that we have left behind leave many of us with trails that we are proud of as well as false starts and detours that we would prefer to hide or deny.

 

 

 I used to be a Regional Sales Manager, a job that paid very well but required me to travel extensively, sometimes spending as many as 15 nights a month away from home.  While traveling in California, one of my children was injured at school, a broken leg.  I cut my trip short and returned home as quickly as I could; only to be admonished by my wife,

 

“ You’re never here when I need you”. 

 

 Not long after that I was laid off.  I followed up on an invitation to go to work for a local distributor who used to represent my company.  During the interview, I told him, “I don’t ever want to have to choose between caring for my family and providing for my family.”  He assured me that that would not be a problem and in the nearly 10 years since, it never has been.

 

 

 

 Sometime later, the company experienced some setbacks that substantially impacted our revenue stream.   Foresight suggested that the reduction could eventually result in layoffs.  Because of some other challenges at home, I went to the boss and offered to cut back my hours at a corresponding reduction in pay.  He resisted at first but eventually took me up on my offer. 

 




 As a result I have been able to spend a lot of quality time with my children, an opportunity I would not trade for anything. 

 

 

 In his article, Richard tells the story of a man who made very different choices with very different results.  He concludes; 

 

 

 

 

 “Is this the attitude and future you want for your descendants? The fact is that you have the power to change the future by saying enough is enough and acting on those instincts. On the other hand you can also do nothing and allow our past to continue to dictate our future extremes of perpetual ignorance relating to the consequences of our actions.

 

 Consider this thought. If reincarnation was a known fact rather than just an idea and the above could be your future, is this the future you would want for yourself? " 

 





LYR has examined many topics since its inception, many of which examine personnel choice and change.  Today, we ask about the footprints you leave behind.  Which will stand the test of time and which will wash away on the next tide? 





 More importantly we ask about the trail not yet blazed.

Where are you going?

 One who walks in another's tracks

 leaves no footprints.

                             Proverb

Richard’s article can

 be found here: Footprints

http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474977847058





 

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Comments: 402

WM H. Oct 30, 2009, 8:57pm EDT
Here is a link to the Previous episode
Rosa See Ya Oct 31, 2009, 5:31am EDT
Oh gosh, I missed the last episode and the title looks very interesting. I might have to go backward before I can move forward.

Nice hat, btw. You look so serious, though, for someone playing on the lake.
Frank Luke Nov 5, 2009, 12:48pm EST
Susan, re: "Frank: my point, which I'm not sure you've absorbed, is that it's possible to believe the extravagant claims and simulataneously function as a thinking, discerning individual. Swallowing hook, line, and sinker connotes an ignorant thinker. "

Belatedly asking but couldn't find a place to slip in a comment before:

I can respect your doing that but it does seem like some one so totally devoted that the thinking gets trumped. I (and perhaps others) who are unable to do that can appreciate the poetry in the bible but I'm unable to swallow some of what's purported to be God's words.

Best regards,
Frank Luke Nov 8, 2009, 12:28pm EST
Ann, re: ""We will not feel safe until the other side feels safe."

Is it too much of a truism to point out that as soon as we set up " the other side", "us and them", we set up the dynamics for offense and defense. If there's fear involved, it will bring out our defensiveness and that usually leads to hostility. I love how the present administration, unlike the Bush people, are making noises about talking with those perceived as unfriendly to try to establish common interests in the effort to further better understanding and relations.
Ann M. (Site Scryer) Nov 8, 2009, 1:33pm EST
Frank, that statement was made in the context of a post 9/11 world, only a few weeks after the event. I think that the world has become less polarized since then. Having a president with a Muslim father is probably a huge advantage when it comes to foreign relations.
Frank Luke Nov 9, 2009, 4:21pm EST
Ann: I also feel a lessening of tension but I hope it's not only wishful thinking. Though there's talk of more dialogue with Muslim enemies, we have to see if that will produce any detente. What are we to do with the terrorist crazies who may still continue their jihad, regardless of what their leaders or anyone says?
Ron (in complete sheeple overload) W. Nov 15, 2009, 11:57pm EST
There may be a feeling of less tension without this country, but the level of tension, internally, has been rising at an alarming rate, I think.
Larry M. Oct 30, 2009, 9:00pm EDT
Well, I'm doing my best to leave footprints but it's really hard to get people to read my book. It really can have a huge impact on humanity and, perhaps, let humanity survive.

www.nopom.info

Of course I doubt anyone reading this will believe me. Sigh.
Rosa See Ya Oct 30, 2009, 11:01pm EDT
Larry, I tried (honest) to have a look, but the very first line has a nasty word in it. (Money) Still, I cringed a little and plunged ahead. And then the first paragraph brings in the hierarchy of power payers, or was that players. I just could not bring myself to read further, sorry. Money and power, in my opinion, are the problem, not the solution. Two major turn offs for me right off the bat.
Larry M. Oct 31, 2009, 8:53am EDT
Rosa,

You are quite correct. Money and the concentrations of power it makes possible are the problem. The solution is to change the fundamental nature of our money while retaining its functions as a medium of exchange and standard unit of account. If you can steel yourself to actually read the novel, you will find it quite pleasant and optimistic. :-)
Frank Luke Nov 2, 2009, 3:44pm EST
Larry: I know how you feel, not being paid attn for ideas that are offered that can turn things around. It's like being Cassandra when they didn't listen to her warning the Trojans about that horse. We have a glut of good ideas, everybody's thinking of them and few are listening to anyone else. You remember The Whole Earth Catalog? We need an update of it, online. That should be a winner, IMO. Though it's maybe a way that requires one-on-one or a more limited contact with people, to live your life as a model of your principles is a guaranteed way to go, engaging with as many people as you can in ways that may get them to change their faulty attitudes, with the attitude of loving kindness and hope.
Larry M. Nov 2, 2009, 3:51pm EST
Frank,

I have been going that way for over 40 years. But if you were alive in Europe during the 14th century and the plague was sweeping toward your community, knowing what you know now, would you just stand by and let the people die or would you try to explain to them the germ theory so they could protect themselves?

I have the idea that can save humanity and the nation and my community. I expect to be reviled and rejected. But if I didn't try to save even those ungrateful S.O.B.s who insult and revile me, I would be worse than the lowest of them. My knowledge is a huge obligation that cannot let me rest.
Frank Luke Nov 2, 2009, 4:12pm EST
Re: money and power as negatives

As I always contend, there is nothing that is 100% negative or positive, setting up a duality that stops conversation and thinking. Money and power certainly can have their positive aspects if applied appropriately and with thought given as to the effects of that application. Can it be denied that good leaders weilding good ideas can effect good results for their people and institutions? Can money not be used in productive socially beneficial ways? It greatly depends on wise, social-minded applications that will benefit the many, not only a small number of avaricious and uncaring people. There are models for both sides and the ones we remember have been exemplars of both the positive and the negative. We praise those who attempt to benefit the many.
Frank Luke Nov 2, 2009, 4:17pm EST
Larry: I congratulate you for your good-minded and generous attempts to spread knowledge to help humanity. You are on the side of offering solutions and deserve merited apreciation. I take the take of choosing my battles. To be publicizing your book here and where ever you can is a hopeful tack, advertising as we know sells. If you truly believe in your ideas, you will find the way to get the word out there. Go for it, do not be discouraged when your message is truly of worth and speak to the most receptive people who may be able to help you.

Best regards and good luck, Aloha,
Ann M. (Site Scryer) Nov 7, 2009, 12:27pm EST
Frank,

The Whole Earth Catalog Online.
Frank Luke Nov 8, 2009, 12:16pm EST
Larry: Some afterthoughts re: getting your message heard:

Not being facetious, only underlining what I said about resorting to any and all ways to get the attention you want, really want:

1) If you think of marketing, think of what sells: comedy; exposure (even negative--try getting the book banned; getting out in public, not just letting the books sit there--hawking the book from a van or on the corner by the church; and of course sex. If you can get an angle, a gimmick this may help.

Are you up for a stand-up routine? Nobody said saving the world has to be only serious. Comedy attracts attn and doesn't have to be cheesy.

Can you frame your message as a short movie you film with a cam-corder, as entertaining as possible without losing your integrity.

I hope I don't insult your intelligence. My objective is to help and branstorm, to see if your message will be received in other ways. Don't think the world will come to your doorstep. Bookselling means hustling, if you don't already know. Have you posted it online?

Best of luck, aloha,
Larry M. Nov 8, 2009, 1:14pm EST
Frank,

The book is online. I posted the complete novel here on Gather. One of the readers is helping let the world know and created a web site for the purpose at www.nopom.info. There are quite a few other articles there as well, exploring various aspects of the problems we face and the solution I propose.

A fellow Gatherite (Perry Gruber) presents inspirational talks on the subject in Oregon. He also has a friend there working on a screenplay.

Lydia Shelley here on gather is writing and performing songs on the subject.

There are some computer science students here who are completing some course requirements creating a simulation facebook game based on the idea but they have moved the time back to the early middle ages. (I suppose magic will be involved in simulating the computer accounts. :-)

In other words, as word of the idea spreads we are gathering more and more people who see this solution as our only real hope. Each person works in his own way to spread the idea. Since the online version of the book is freely available, I don't think anyone is out any money to do so as yet for which I am thankful.

Oh, by the way, the novel, which explains in considerable detail how the solution works, is science fiction set in the near future. Oddly enough, the book has the solution first adopted to take effect January 1, 2013, very near the "end of the world as we know it" prophesies I have been hearing about lately. (That's just a coincidence, I think.) Those who have read the novel (see the comments here on Gather,for example) find it quite easy and fun to read.

Please check it out. :-)
Ferosh (Site Translator for LOLSPEAK)is O. Nov 10, 2009, 12:24am EST
Larry M.,

I understand what you mean, and how right you are in your message.... unfortunately, most people aren't ready for your kind of insight, and that is frustrating. Nothing worse than seeing what's causing all the problems, only to have everyone not want to hear or see what you portend... this kind of knowing is not to be learned in your lifetime... you are ahead of yours. This, I know.:)
Larry M. Nov 10, 2009, 7:10am EST
Ferosh,

Are you able to join me in spreading the word? It truly is gospel, that is, "good news." We can be saved from ourselves. Can you do something to get others to discover what I have found? There really is hope for a tomorrow far better than today if only we will look, see, and understand. It isn't as if we were dieting, or giving up cigarettes. The solution is more than comfortable, it is a vast relief. It will shower everyone with benefits, rich and poor alike.
Jerry Kays Nov 10, 2009, 8:45am EST
Ferosh, I appreciate that you see the value in what Larry is attempting to do for society ... I await the day that someone similarly sees the value in the concept that I offer to society ... which is so basic and painless as to be, I guess, unreasonable for those who think great pain is required for gain.
Ferosh (Site Translator for LOLSPEAK)is O. Nov 10, 2009, 12:23pm EST
Larry,

I can do no more than what you can do.... people will hear what they want, when they want.


Jerry,
You are in the same boat. Your concept most certainly has value... but again, you can't MAKE people hear you. They either will, or they won't, and they most likely won't hear any of us until our time has passed.
Jerry Kays Nov 11, 2009, 2:13am EST
sad :-( but true ...
Ann M. (Site Scryer) Oct 30, 2009, 10:08pm EDT
Thank you for sharing so much of yourself here, Bill. Your topic is particularly timely considering the recession we're in.
Ann M. (Site Scryer) Oct 30, 2009, 10:09pm EDT
Glad you managed to slip a post in between World Series games!
WM H. Oct 30, 2009, 10:55pm EDT
Go Phillies.
Ferosh (Site Translator for LOLSPEAK)is O. Nov 10, 2009, 12:24am EST
I hate sports. lol
Jerry Kays Nov 10, 2009, 8:46am EST
Not as much as I do ... (I'd bet)(but I hate gambling also). :-)
Ferosh (Site Translator for LOLSPEAK)is O. Nov 10, 2009, 12:24pm EST
LOL
Bent Lorentzen Nov 11, 2009, 5:40am EST
Go Boston! (2010)

(Can always dream it may happen 2X in same century)
Ann M. (Site Scryer) Nov 15, 2009, 9:26am EST
Sooooo...how does a citizen of Denmark end up as a Boston fan?
libramoon C. Oct 30, 2009, 10:25pm EDT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7lkqxfvA78
Rosa See Ya Oct 30, 2009, 10:43pm EDT
Now that is what I call creative expression - awesome video, my friend. I really enjoyed this one.
René Allen Oct 31, 2009, 1:12am EDT
I'm coming back to this fascinating Article Wm. Great post!
Ann M. (Site Scryer) Nov 8, 2009, 10:28am EST
Nice to see you here, Rene!
Richard Regener Oct 31, 2009, 1:57am EDT
Thank you Wm, excellent article. As I've said before, power and wealth always buys corruption. The evidence is already written into our history and continues everyday. Of what value is moral ethics when ones actions deny ones moral teachings? This simply means that our toys are controlling us in terms of time with those we care about in our pursuit of wealth, power, technology, science, leisure, transportation, communication, ect... When is enough, enough?
Ann M. (Site Scryer) Nov 7, 2009, 12:29pm EST
I think it's our instincts as much as our toys that are controlling us.
Farmer Slim aka Michael H Nov 1, 2009, 6:59am EST
This may sound rather strange...but I'm not interested in leaving a footprint. Bill said about our footprints.."Which will stand the test of time and which will wash away on the next tide?"

No footprint will stand the true test of time because our existence...the existence of our universe is a blink of the eye....an infinitesimally small fraction of time.

But from the perspective of the few thousand years of man's existence and the few thousand more that man will exist (maybe)...I think the best we can do is disturb our planet as little as possible and when possible...apologize to her by giving back what we can of what we have stolen....allowing her to heal herself.

I understand that Bill's question of footprint is about the personal legacy we will leave, and about our personal accountability. For me, it boils down this this...

"Every man is guilty of all the good he didn't do" -- Voltaire
Aniko     Nov 1, 2009, 11:49am EST
I was thinking the same as Slim, and that was why I hadn't commented before.
Ann M. (Site Scryer) Nov 2, 2009, 10:39am EST
Hasn't anyone who's had children already left a "footprint"?
Farmer Slim aka Michael H Nov 2, 2009, 11:03am EST
They sure have Ann. Good point.
Aniko     Nov 2, 2009, 8:09pm EST
Yes, we have, Ann. And the rest of what I said before on these matters. It's impossible not to leave a footprint (even if you don't have children).

(If it was only through children that a footprint were left, you couldn't quite answer that question, though. Your children would have to have children themselves, and so on... Or else yours would be gone, too, wouldn't it?.
Ann M. (Site Scryer) Nov 7, 2009, 12:31pm EST
I agree, children are of course only part of our footprint. I should add that there's probably no better footprint to leave than an educated, conscientious citizen of the world.
Frank Luke Nov 7, 2009, 1:23pm EST
This imprinting is another way of understanding karma, how our actions cause reactions, ad infinitum, wouldn't you say, Ann?
Ann M. (Site Scryer) Nov 7, 2009, 1:38pm EST
By "imprinting" do you mean the raising of our children? If so, I'd agree.
Frank Luke Nov 9, 2009, 4:24pm EST
Ann: Yes, the raising of children but karma covers all bases of human activity as you well know, Ann.
Ferosh (Site Translator for LOLSPEAK)is O. Nov 10, 2009, 12:27am EST
By being born, we have already laid tread upon things we can't even know, until they come to pass......

If we could learn from everyone else's mistakes, there would be no hate, no war, no rape... history would not repeat itself... yet our footprints seem inclined to follow, not forge........
Bent Lorentzen Nov 10, 2009, 9:15am EST
Hasn't anyone who's had children already left a "footprint"?

As is anyone who By being born, w[has] already laid tread upon things we can't even know, until they come to pass......
JustMe ~I'm happy to be~ Nov 11, 2009, 1:54pm EST
I would like to think I served a purpose while here on Earth. That I had done something to better the world, even just my little corner of it.

Ron (in complete sheeple overload) W. Nov 15, 2009, 8:40am EST
You have, JM, and I imagine a lot more than I am familiar with, here on Gather. You're a gentle and thoughtful soul, that I am sure touches a lot of people.
Jerry Kays Nov 1, 2009, 10:28am EST
Georgiana S. Oct 31, 2009, 8:22pm EDT
what if god, therefore is an alien life force? All this religion stuff seems to be associated with this planet, if there is life on other planets what do you think their belief systems would be?

From my study of information sourced outside of this planet, there is a galactic code that all advanced societies adhere to ... and it is my understanding of that code that informs me to why I came up with my view about the differences between GOD, God(s), and gods.

I suspect that many planets have their own unique systems of thought according to their history and countless other factors that I could never begin to speculate upon. But the Urantia Book speaks of some of that to the degree that it says there are other planets very similar to our own, some much more advanced and some lagging in certain ways, but that our planet is extremely unique due to our history related around the concept of our "fall" from grace indicated by the Edenic story.

From the same "sources" that I have read, it is mentioned that our planet has been "quarantined" for ages now, off limits to other galactic civilizations ... we are a special experiment, that needs more time to mature and play itself out in that direction, we are off limits ... yet we have been visited by entities renegade to the galactic rules and intentions ... (the source of many "visitations", UFO sightings, and other more strange happenings reported) ... there will always be a certain "criminal" element in creation.
Kristi C. Nov 1, 2009, 7:14pm EST
Well from the post and subsequent comments I am concluding two things. First off, that on a grand and universal scale footprints are meaningless. However, our own personal footprints will influence the paths of each subsequent generation. Even those of us who try not to leave any. Even if you walk in the prints of the person before you there will still be a different and distinct impression that you leave behind to be seen by others.
What we need to decide is which is more important, the universal view of footprints, or the individuals. In that decision we decide the direction of our path.
Ann M. (Site Scryer) Nov 2, 2009, 10:40am EST
Well said, Kristi.
Jerry Kays Nov 10, 2009, 8:49am EST
Kristi, the "universal view" is one of individuality ... yet unity. The "world view" has yet to discover the unity.
Frank Luke Nov 2, 2009, 3:11pm EST
Moving this up from the last thread:

Being a an artist with a spiritual Awakening, having a vision of life and the world I envision as "better, more beautiful", I conduct my life to bring that vision about to actualtiy with the puny efforts I am enabled to make. Being a visionary should not mean only having visions that are seen only by one's own self but if beautiful enough, should be considered worthwhile enough so as to be actualized with whatever it takes in whatever form that makes the most impact so others can share and hlep to support that effort.

I hope my footprint will leave behind a trail of beauty, a "better" more beautiful world for future generations to enjoy. This gives my work impetus to continue.
Ann M. (Site Scryer) Nov 7, 2009, 12:32pm EST
Beautiful comment, Frank. I love your humility.
Ferosh (Site Translator for LOLSPEAK)is O. Nov 10, 2009, 12:30am EST
We all make our efforts to make our own footprints, outside the paths that lead us to the same crap.... some will succeed, some won't. We won't know which footprints will start the new path until after they are laid......
JustMe ~I'm happy to be~ Nov 11, 2009, 1:56pm EST
I feel the same way, Frank....which does include my beautiful children, but also the purpose that I find to live my life for.
Frank Luke Nov 2, 2009, 3:22pm EST
Frank Luke Oct 31, 2009, 1:25pm EDT

(Tried but was unable to delete this from previous thread.)

Awakening manifesto

I'd like to build the world a homeand furnish it with love,
Grow apple trees and honey bees and snow white turtle doves;

I'd like to teach the world to sing in perfect harmony,
I'd like to hold it in my arms and keep it company.

I'd like to see the world for once all standing hand in hand
And hear them echo through the hills for peace throuout the land!

That's the song I hear, let the world sing today
A song of peace that echoes on and never goes away.

Ann M. (Site Scryer) Nov 7, 2009, 12:33pm EST
Who wrote that, Frank?
Frank Luke Nov 7, 2009, 1:20pm EST
Was it Ann Nonymous? I don't know Ann. We learned it in grade school, where I learned a lot of what I live by. Kapalama Elementary School was great!
Ann M. (Site Scryer) Nov 7, 2009, 1:37pm EST
Google says the author is Lea Salonga, and it was sung by The Hillside Singers in Coke commercials in the 1970s.
Frank Luke Nov 7, 2009, 1:45pm EST
Did it say if she won an Emmy or anything? I love it, love the sound of the kids singing it on the Coke commercial. TY for the info!
Ann M. (Site Scryer) Nov 7, 2009, 2:13pm EST
Quick internet tip for you, Frank:

If you're interested in a song or poem, go to Google and type one of the lines into the search engine. You'll usually get enough hits to tell you everything you want to know.
Frank Luke Nov 8, 2009, 12:01pm EST
Ann:

I'd Like To Teach The World To Sing (In Perfect Harmony) Composer: B. Backer; B. Davis; R. Greenaway; R. Cook

Lea, that cute and talented performer, only made a recording of it.
Ann M. (Site Scryer) Nov 9, 2009, 9:22am EST
Thanks, Frank! Did you Google that?
Frank Luke Nov 9, 2009, 12:55pm EST
Google to the fore!
Ann M. (Site Scryer) Nov 15, 2009, 9:29am EST
Huzzah!
Frank Luke Nov 2, 2009, 3:24pm EST
The leaders of the Church of England have convened to address the climate concerns, a brilliant move. Getting all the believers to get on the same page re: climate change is a big step in the right direction. I hope the American church leaders follow that lead. Let's pray they do!
Dave A. Nov 3, 2009, 6:36pm EST
Frank, the United Methodist Church--of which I am a member--as well as a number of other denominations, have developed statements, educational materials, position papers, political and educational awareness campaigns, and formed coalitions and working groups to address issues of environmental and social justice.

A brief excerpt from the United Methodist Social Principles regarding the natural world reads:

All creation is the Lord’s, and we are responsible for the ways in which we use and abuse it. Water, air, soil, minerals, energy resources, plants, animal life, and space are to be valued and conserved because they are God’s creation and not solely because they are useful to human beings. God has granted us stewardship of creation. We should meet these stewardship duties through acts of loving care and respect. Economic, political, social, and technological developments have increased our human numbers, and lengthened and enriched our lives. However, these developments have led to regional defoliation, dramatic extinction of species, massive human suffering, overpopulation, and misuse and overconsumption of natural and nonrenewable resources, particularly by industrialized societies. This continued course of action jeopardizes the natural heritage that God has entrusted to all generations. Therefore, let us recognize the responsibility of the church and its members to place a high priority on changes in economic, political, social, and technological lifestyles to support a more ecologically equitable and sustainable world leading to a higher quality of life for all of God’s creation. (See also the same link for the social principles statement on economic justice.)

Here is a list of some of the coalitions that the UM Economic and Environmental Justice Work Area is connected to:

Alaska Coalition

...has over 700 conservation, sporting, labor and religious groups working together to protect wild public lands in Alaska. A project of the Alaska Conservation Foundation, the Coalition’s priorities include protection of the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge and the Chugach and Tongass National Forests. Website

Alliance for Fair Food

...is a network of human rights, religious, student, labor, sustainable food and agriculture, environmental and grassroots organizations who work to promote principles and practices of socially responsible purchasing in the corporate food industry that advance and ensure the human rights of farmworkers. Website

Ecumenical Eco-Justice Network

...provides educational information on environmental and ecological issues from the Christian faith perspective. The Network produces the publication “Between the Flood and the Rainbow” which provides periodic updates on a range of eco-justice issues. The Network has been less active in recent years, although leaders continue to contribute to the activities of the National Council of Churches’ Eco-Justice Working Group. Website

Fair Labor Association

...is a non-profit organization combining the efforts of industry, non-governmental organizations (NGOs), colleges and universities to promote adherence to international labor standards and improve working conditions worldwide. Website

Informed Meetings Exchange (INMEX)

...was formed as a network of labor, environmental, religious and other non-profit organizations to assist in planning socially responsible meetings. Website:

Interfaith Center for Corporate Responsibility (ICCR)

...is a thirty-year-old coalition of over 250 faith-based institutional investors including denominations, pension funds, healthcare corporations, and foundations. The ICCR helps coalition members connect social values with investment decisions and use investments and other resources, including shareholder resolutions, to change unjust or harmful corporate policies focusing on peace, economic justice and stewardship of God’s creation. Website

National Campaign for Sustainable Agriculture

...shapes national policies to foster a sustainable food and agriculture system. The Network is an alliance of hundreds of grassroots, state, regional and national organizations including representatives from family farms, rural and urban communities, environmental and wildlife advocates, workers, students, indigenous peoples and faith-based organizations. Website

National Farm Worker Ministry (NFWM)

...is an interfaith organization that supports farm workers as they organize for empowerment, justice, and equality. Begun in 1920 as a ministry of charity and service, NFWM became the vehicle for the religious community to answer United Farm Workers founder César Chávez’s call to change its emphasis from charity to justice. NFWM brings together national denominations, state councils of churches, religious orders and congregations, and concerned individuals to act with the farm workers to achieve fundamental change in their living and working conditions. Website

National Low Income Housing Coalition

...is dedicated solely to ending America’s affordable housing crisis. The Coalition focuses its advocacy on those with the most serious housing problems, the lowest income households. Website

National Neighborhood Coalition

...serves as a link to Washington for neighborhood and community-based organizations. The Coalition also serves as a networking resource for representatives of regional and national organizations involved in community development, housing and a wide range of other neighborhood issues. Website

National Youth Employment Coalition

...works to ensure every young person is assured the full range of educational, developmental, vocational, economic and social opportunities. Website

Rural Coalition

...is an alliance of regionally and culturally diverse organizations working to build a more just and sustainable food system. The focus of the Coalition’s efforts are to bring fair returns to minority and other small farmers and rural communities, to ensure just and fair working conditions for farmworkers, to protect the environment, and to deliver safe and healthy food to consumers. Website
Frank Luke Nov 4, 2009, 1:08pm EST
Dave: You Methodists are really right on and I applaud you and your church for your work and efforts. Are you hands on and in which ways? Do you feel your church is being effective in their efforts? Any examples? Bless you guys! Aloha,
Dave A. Nov 4, 2009, 5:53pm EST
My teens are hands-on by spending a week on mission each year. I've reported on their exploits previously on LYR (last summer it was fixing up homes in Appalachia among the dirt-poor). My kids and their parents do local mission projects that include stuff like working in homeless shelters and helping fix up the houses of needy people around here. This is nothing unusual... a lot of people do these things.

Our local congregation sends significant monies (high five figures) in apportionments to the connectional church, much of it in support of worldwide relief and development work. The United Methodist Committee on Relief (UMCOR) was, and is still instrumental in coordinating the efforts of hundreds of thousands of volunteers involved in Katrina recovery on the Gulf coast. The UMC, the Roman Catholic church, the Presbyterians and others are playing a big role down there, even today. Our church has sent about 10 separate teams of volunteers down there since Katrina. UMCOR's reach is global--follow the link for more.

The denomination is effective in direct relief efforts and in areas such as responsible investment choices for things like its retirement funds. In the policy arena, the consortium efforts do raise consciousness toward socially-responsible public action, but there are a lot of players in that arena. Take your pick--the NRA, or the Coalition to Stop Gun Violence? Getting involved in any of these efforts is as simple as clicking one of the links.
Frank Luke Nov 5, 2009, 12:36pm EST
Dave:

'TY for your great response. Bless you, your kids and congregation!

Aloha,
Ann M. (Site Scryer) Nov 7, 2009, 12:34pm EST
Dave,

All creation is the Lord’s, and we are responsible for the ways in which we use and abuse it. Water, air, soil, minerals, energy resources, plants, animal life, and space are to be valued and conserved because they are God’s creation and not solely because they are useful to human beings.

Beautifully said. Buddhists can get behind that statement.
Dave A. Nov 7, 2009, 9:28pm EST
The more the merrier, Ann!
Ann M. (Site Scryer) Nov 9, 2009, 9:23am EST
I am very heartened to see the "save the earth" movements coming out of religious groups these days.
Bent Lorentzen Nov 11, 2009, 5:54am EST
Dave, I didn't realize how seriously the United Methodist church takes its view on "stewardship." I did some digging and came across this article by John Cobb, who apparently is a well-respected professor of theology and minister for the United Methodist Church.

The World Trade Organization: A Theological Critique

Here are a few paragraphs from the article:

III. A Christian Critique

There are many Christians who have accepted the argument for free trade and celebrate the new globalism. It seems to fit with the vision of interdependence among all people that some have long upheld. It seems to replace the narrow goal of national good with the inclusive human good. If one points out the costs to Americans of this new globalism, other Christians respond that we should be willing to pay this price so that the whole world may prosper.

Other Christians who observe the actual consequences of the global economy are much less enthusiastic. They notice that the economic growth that the global economy achieves does not go to the poor. Richer nations are becoming richer, and within each nation richer people are becoming richer. But on the whole, the poor in each nation are barely holding their own, and in many cases they are becoming poorer. The gap between rich and poor is growing rapidly.

Supporters of free trade cannot deny these facts. But they regard them as less important than they seem to us. I will explain two lines of argument and note my objections.

l. In economics there is a principle called Pareto Optimality. According to this principle, the goal of policy is to improve the lot of some without harming others. This principle does not support worsening the lot of the poor, but as long as their condition remains unchanged as measured by average income, believers in this principle will celebrate the global economic growth, since some are, without question, growing richer.

This principle expresses the desire of economists not to be swayed by values other than the quantitive increase of economic production. Arguments based on such values they call "theology." They are correct. Concerns for justice and especially for the poor and oppressed are deeply Biblical and thus, also, theological.

As Christians we value the health of communities, including national communities. One measure of health is the extent to which the whole community is concerned that the basic needs of all are met. Another measure is the lack of extreme difference in economic condition between the richer and the poorer. Economic theory does not interest itself in such matters, but Christian theology must. If free trade makes the rich richer while not benefiting the poor, economic theory may continue to support it, but Christian theology cannot.

2. Many supporters of free trade do care about the poor. They argue that the widening gap between rich and poor is a phase of economic growth that does not last. In time, the greater wealth of the society as a whole trickles down to the poor.

This is an important argument. It depicts the present suffering of the world's poor as temporary. It asks for patience, so that the market can work its magic and there can be a great future for humanity as a whole. It appeals especially to the poor to tighten their belts so that their children and grandchildren will enjoy a prosperity that is far beyond their present reach. The question is, will this method of dealing with the problem of poverty work?

The strength of the argument comes from the histories of the now industrialized nations. Most of them went through a period in which the conditions of the poor in general and workers in particular were miserable. Today they are far better off, taking for granted such luxuries as motor transportation, refrigerators, and television sets, unimaginable to their ancestors. If the global economy will deliver to all the benefits it has provided in the First World, billions of people in the Third World are willing to make sacrifices now so that this dream will come true.

That this will work on a global basis is a matter of faith, not evidence. That does not make it alien to Christians. But since faith here is not placed in God but in the market, Christians may suspect that idolatry is at work. Is this perhaps a call for the world to serve Mammon or wealth rather than God?

In any case, there are several reasons for being skeptical. In all the nations in which workers eventually shared in the benefits of economic growth, labor unions and governments played a strong hand. The global economy drastically weakens labor unions and greatly reduces the role of governments. The only agency that has global power with regard to the economy is the WTO, whose mission is to promote free trade, not to seek the well-being of the poor.
Frank Luke Nov 11, 2009, 12:34pm EST
Re: "That (the economic lot of the poor improving) will work on a global basis is a matter of faith, not evidence."

Bill Clinton made the assertion that things will become a lot better when he stumped for global free trade. As we see it's been a mixed blessing. Economic change and improvements take a while to kick in and critics are often too impatient to see signs of it. How long can misery wait? I submit that improvement will come about depending on the leadership and governments of the countries involved. Good governance and enlightened un-self-aggrandizing leaders will certainly help to improve conditions. Not till those factors come about, IMO.
Jerry Kays Nov 11, 2009, 3:53pm EST
Speaking of "Global Economies"... a "NEW WORLD ORDER", here is a 21/2 hour video that everyone should watch ... BOOK MARK IT for your FUTURE edification.
Jerry Kays Nov 12, 2009, 11:22am EST
Bent, I have since read your entire linked article, it is very informative and even hopeful ... I have also book marked to my favorites the host of it "Religion on Line" ... which appears to be a very valuable source of information.
Frank Luke Nov 2, 2009, 3:40pm EST
Re: having children and leaving a footprint

The chance is that the world they will inherit may not be such a great one, with the irresponsible legacy of debt, degradation of the environment and all the rest of the woes we their forebears are leaving them. If we can dig ourselves out of the morass we've gotten into, that will be helpful. We've got a whole lot of shoveling to do.

Another thought re: children as a legacy is that there are no guarantees they'll prove to be the kind of socially responsible people we'd like to have around without we ourselves, each one of us, being the kind of models that will bring about those kinds of individuals. Seems like a lot of parents haven't been doing such a great job and have turned out kids who create more problems than anything else. Teaching your children well means showing them the way to creating a world of loving peacefulness for all, living up to priinciples that promote that.
WM H. Nov 3, 2009, 6:06pm EST
we most learn to focus on our intentions and let outcomes take care of themselves.

"Seems like a lot of parents haven't been doing such a great job ...."

We determine our behavior and and our intentions but we cannot control other's perceptions. A single set of parents can have several children that manifest good character and still have another that is an apparent bad seed. Does that occur because of something the parent did, a mis-perception by the child or something else all together?
Frank Luke Nov 4, 2009, 1:05pm EST
Re: kids that turn out well and those who don't

Is it only a matter of the luck of the draw, bad seed and genetics, chemistry or what? Childhood influences are a big factor, even the messages infants receive as soon as they're out in the world--too hot, too cold, too rough, colic, even too much loving--being bothered by doting adults. It's all a very iffy thing. What produces a homicidal killer, a saint?
Ann M. (Site Scryer) Nov 7, 2009, 12:40pm EST
I think Generation X (those born between 1964 and 1976) had a pretty hard time raising kids. This was the first generation in which most Moms worked, and there was also abundant "electronic babysitting" avaliable which, unbeknownst to most, had adverse effects on the brain development of children.
Frank Luke Nov 7, 2009, 12:59pm EST
I agree with Ann that not having mom at home certainly would have been a negative factor in bringing up kids. In my case I was brought up by grandparents but Mom and Dad did have their considerable influences. I know many kids, especially those who went off the tracks, didn't have the good influence of grandparents. And even parents became very confused with all the advice given by writers and psychologists. It's such a complicated business and we reap what we sow, even when influencing by being absent, neglectful. But there are lots of examples of negative learning, kids seeing how they don't want to be like their parents and turn out great. I wish we had a more positive and systematic way of handling parenting and doing it right. Like our crime laws, something bad has to happen and you have to have eyewitness evidence before you can intervene. So we bumble on.

I don't want to end that negatively. Anybody have more positive things to say about bringing up kids, influencing them positively? Monkeys see and monkeys do, right?
Ann M. (Site Scryer) Nov 7, 2009, 1:05pm EST
Employers (and the government) are becoming decidedly more accommodating to parents, with flextime and maternal/paternal leave.
Ferosh (Site Translator for LOLSPEAK)is O. Nov 10, 2009, 12:32am EST
Not mine.... sigh.... but my job also represents an important part of life... that of having no control except over the moment you're in.... it's a very important lesson that I needed to learn, and I hope to impart to my children.
Ann M. (Site Scryer) Nov 15, 2009, 9:30am EST
It must be really hard raising kids when your profession requires a lot of travel.
Frank Luke Nov 2, 2009, 3:57pm EST
Re: The Perennial Wisdom as a universal code of spiritual behavior

Is it too much to expect that an agreed upon universal spiritual code, devoid of any ecumenical influence, would go far in bringing about a lasting guide for generations everlasting to behave in more peaceable ways? It seems to me that to be able to expose, truly educate and indoctrinate every human being to that wisdom would be very helpful in bringing about a peaceful world. Any infractions of the wisdom's understanding would mean a taking a refresher course in Perennial Wisdom's tenets until understanding is assured. No more war and violence, murder, environmental degredation and profiting from harm done to others. Too much a pipe dream? Imagine all the people living in that dream!
Ann M. (Site Scryer) Nov 7, 2009, 12:41pm EST
Frank, how about a guest LYR post on Perennial Wisdom?
Frank Luke Nov 7, 2009, 12:50pm EST
Hi, Ann: TY for your invite. I'm honored and would be happy to do that. Actually I've said so much on this and wonder if there's more to say? I guess it could all be more organized. I'll submit a suggested series of questions to you in the mail. Aloha, best to you. Happy weekend to you and yours!
Ann M. (Site Scryer) Nov 7, 2009, 1:07pm EST
Thank you, Frank.
Frank Luke Nov 2, 2009, 4:05pm EST
Question: Is simply chanting or counting beads spiritually effectual?

Well, it keeps all those people busy chanting from getting into mischief, no? To be serious, it can't hurt. Just think, if everybody was chanting at the same time, say for a couple of hours, the whole world would be at peace in that time span. Universal peace, that's what we need. How about a universal Meditation Hour everybody at the same appropriately designated hour in each time zone, monthly for starters till it became a common universal practice? Stop the fighting, the bombing, the wars, the money-grubbing--, everybody get down and meditate! Just one hour each month isn't too much to ask, IMO, don't you think?
Dave A. Nov 3, 2009, 6:46pm EST
Better be careful, Frank. I have found that there are people around who are deeply offended when invited to go somewhere for an hour and sit quietly. I am engaged in a discipline not unlike what you're describing, and it's once a week. Not counting choir practice, of course.
Frank Luke Nov 4, 2009, 1:01pm EST
Dave, interesting that people will be offended even for a mere invitation to sit quietly. Tell me more. What's your sitting quietly doing for you? Best,
Dave A. Nov 4, 2009, 1:24pm EST
It's interesting to see these epiphanies lifted like bits of colored glass from an old treasure box that has been sitting on a side table, unnoticed for the while. One seeks authenticity through a sense of discovery and newness, an experience that one claims, feels, as one's own. Of course, all revelations are personal, and so after one "gets down" for the hour, one must then ask, "will I know you when I get up?"
Frank Luke Nov 5, 2009, 12:33pm EST
Dave: What prompted your remark about pissing people for even suggesting sitting quietly for a spell? Pls explicate.
Dave A. Nov 7, 2009, 11:02pm EST
Frank, thanks for asking. I had several thoughts when you made your suggestion. Of course, I saw the value of a general call for a time of silence, reflection, and meditation. Then it occurred to me that your call was eerily similar to invitations to attend religious services, the very thought of which has been bitterly denounced here in the past as "interference" in one's private life. I went from there to the question of what then would manifest an authentic invitation, and an authentic and meaningful experience, one after which we would "get up" knowing each other.

As a member of a missional denomination, I also free-associated about an event called One Great Hour of Sharing, typically held the third or fourth week of Lent, which is observed in a whole range of denominations, including the American Baptist Churches USA, African Methodist Episcopal Zion Church, Church of the Brethren, Christian Church (Disciples of Christ), Cumberland Presbyterian Church, Episcopal Church, Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.), Reformed Church in America, United Church of Christ, The United Methodist Church, Church World Service, and in a slightly different form in the Roman Catholic Church.

That hour is a time shared by millions of American Christians who consider, pray about, and offer support to world development and relief efforts through organizations like the United Methodist Committee on Relief and Church World Service, and others (the denominational links above provide more details).
Frank Luke Nov 9, 2009, 12:53pm EST
Dave:

It totally mystifies me and lines what Jung said about people doing everything to avoid understanding themselves or something like that. It seems that being quiet for these people is a negative, and that it means conflating church and state to say anyone should enforce a quiet time in schools or at public, maybe political gatherings as if merely to settle down, gather thoughts and reflect a bit should not be at all encouraged in public. ??
Dave A. Nov 9, 2009, 4:08pm EST
I oppose required moments of silence in public schools, Frank. Plenty of moments of reflection, and thought, and, yes, prayer are encouraged in school by the simple act of passing out a set of test questions!

If you followed the link to One Great Hour of Sharing above, you saw that the first one was a nationally-broadcast event kicked off by President Harry Truman. Presidents don't do that sort of thing any more--it's more likely to be Bono.

Maybe you're the next Bono, Frank. Let's set a date and see how many people we can get to pause and meditate on world peace!
Frank Luke Nov 9, 2009, 4:29pm EST
Dave: I don't feel I have the charisma of a Bono, I'll need to put out a hit movie or record first. I'd love to have the chance to assemble a group of high profile professed Buddhists (Tina Turner, Sting, Richard Gere, et al) and we'd lead the world to meditate in perfect harmony, for free!
Bent Lorentzen Nov 12, 2009, 7:18am EST
Question: Is simply chanting or counting beads spiritually effectual? etc...

Frank, you might be interested in reading this
Brain scans show meditation changes minds, increases attention

Here's a bit from the University of Wisconsin's report:

For hundreds of years, Tibetan monks and other religious people have used meditation to calm the mind and improve concentration. This week, a new study shows exactly how one common type of meditation affects the brain.

Using a scanner that reveals which parts of the brain are active at any given moment, the researchers found that meditation increased activity in the brain regions used for paying attention and making decisions.

The changes were associated with the practice of concentration meditation, says study leader Richard Davidson, professor of psychology and psychiatry at the University of Wisconsin School of Medicine and Public Health and the Waisman Center. Practitioners were instructed to focus attention intently on a stimulus, and when the attention wandered off, to simply bring the attention back to the object, explains Davidson.

..."Most people, if they heard a baby screaming, would have some emotional response," Davidson says, but not the highly experienced meditators. "They do hear the sound, we can detect that in the auditory cortex, but they don’t have the emotional reaction."...

...Other evidence for the neurological benefits of meditation came from a study Davidson reported in May, which showed that three months of meditation training improved the ability to detect a brief visual signal that most people cannot detect. "That was a more definitive kind of evidence, because we were able to track the same people over time," he says.

Shira C. Nov 2, 2009, 10:22pm EST
Very interesting post, Bill.

One thing I've noticed is, our perception of our parents' footprints changes over time. Part of it is the old saw: "As I get older, my parents get smarter."

But there's more to it than that. A lot of stuff my parents tried to teach me has not stood the test of time. They had pretty rigid expectations about gender roles, social roles, race relations... so many certainties that the future just trampled on and moved past.

And yet, at the core, they were the kind of people I want to be. They worked hard and didn't look either for glory or for shortcuts. They were generous to anyone in need, and kind to animals, neighbors, kids, strangers... just about everyone really. They faced adversity, and ultimately death, with courage and humor.

I guess I hope that, even if my daughter discards everything I've ever said to her, that she'll look back one day on our character, mine and my husband's, and say, "My parents were, at the core, the kind of people I want to be."
Ann M. (Site Scryer) Nov 7, 2009, 12:42pm EST
Society changes so quickly that only the Golden Rule seems to stand the test of time...
Shira C. Nov 8, 2009, 3:31pm EST
Yes. By and large, words are the kind of footprint that is washed away.

Very humbling thought for someone who likes words as much as I do...
Ann M. (Site Scryer) Nov 9, 2009, 9:27am EST
"All is impermanent." (The Buddha)
Shira C. Nov 9, 2009, 10:16am EST
Yes, and yet... The same forms keep arising, isn't that fascinating? Here I am. ........................... And now, here I am again. I am honestly astonished by the regularities.
Ferosh (Site Translator for LOLSPEAK)is O. Nov 10, 2009, 12:34am EST
Shira C.,

Change is the most consistent occurrance....
Frank Luke Nov 3, 2009, 1:24pm EST
Ken Auletta spoke on NPR's Fresh Air saying how Google's engineers are so brilliant, bringing to mind the brilliant scientists like those who developed the atom bomb, giving scant thought it seems to the consequences of their work. Of course there's the upside of it but the downsides have wrought havoc to many industries, journalism and publishing to mention two, and the Google juggernaut plows on, mowing down more and more of our economy as we know it. Ready for cloud computering? Beware!
WM H. Nov 3, 2009, 6:17pm EST
When I was in college, my roommate worked one summer at a company that made wooden wagon wheels. Eventually they went out of business because those central park carraiges and budweiser beer wagons simply did not produce enough business to keep them going. Should we restrict the proliferation of rubber tires to protect the wagon wheel manufacturer?

We have had extensive conversations here about climate change and possible remedies. any remedy that can actually produce a reduction in green house gas emissions will also produce substantial declines in employment in oil and gas exploration and production.

I really do like my morning newspaper but I recently cancelled my subscription due to customer service issues. I wrote a letter outlining my complaints and received no response. They deserve to go belly up if they can't figure out how to insure that my paper lands on my grass where it doesn't get wet rather than my driveway where it does.
Frank Luke Nov 3, 2009, 2:36pm EST
While safe and dry out of the rain yesterday, keeping my hands busy painting my pictures, I could occupy my mind listening to the estimable NPR and learned:

1) stem cells can be taken from placentae, so save any from your new babies that can be frozen, just in case. Automatic compatability. ("All Things Considered" show)

2) an innovative liquid metal battery developed at MIT was winner of a competition, hope for a viable battery for our new electric cars ("Living on Earth")

3) Brahms wrote his "Double Concerto" to attempt to heal a damaged friendship with the violinist of the first performance. ("Performance Today")

4) The US is adopting "American Clean Energy Act" as the name for that agency without use of the terms "Climate Change" or "Global Warming". (Living on Earth)

5) How to make recession busting ramen ("All Things Considered")

6) Who are the rising Republican stars? (ibid)

7) Google's upsides and down ("Fresh Air")

8) The state of the ocean and fish population--dire! ("Fresh Air")

9) How to get wildbirds to eat from your hand, with walnut meats ("Living on Earth")

10) Nature returning to the area where the Berlin Wall stood (ibid)

Check out NPR, enlightening radio!

Ann M. (Site Scryer) Nov 7, 2009, 12:45pm EST
Huzzah, NPR! Here's group you might like to join on Gather, Frank: Public Radio Forum.
Frank Luke Nov 3, 2009, 2:38pm EST
I seem to be the sole commenter of late. Has the train moved on and left me? Where is everybody?
WM H. Nov 3, 2009, 3:43pm EST
Don't know exactly. I just figured nobody liked my topic.

Ann M. (Site Scryer) Nov 3, 2009, 3:48pm EST
Check your email.
Dave A. Nov 3, 2009, 6:48pm EST
I tried to help out, Frank, with a couple of comments on your posts. Should I check my email now?
Ann M. (Site Scryer) Nov 7, 2009, 12:46pm EST
Shall I send you something, Dave?
Dave A. Nov 8, 2009, 6:32am EST
It's always a pleasure, Ann!
Ferosh (Site Translator for LOLSPEAK)is O. Nov 10, 2009, 12:35am EST
I love this topic, I've just been too busy to delve into all the comments to make an educated one myself.
Liz [site-raven] Nov 3, 2009, 6:54pm EST
It is a good topic ... for me one that is pleasant to read the comments of others about, which I have been doing. But, I tend to not give much consideration to what I leave behind. I guess that I do not care ... or perhaps I ought say that I don't spend any time whatsoever thinking about it. And that is not meant to sound as arrogant as it sounds.

Here is why I do not think about it. Instead, I concentrate on trying to live within the present ... the now ... and I work hard at making the changes within to be the best that I can be today. I have many changes to make and that does take up my time, that is not a joke but how I live. I guess that I believe that posterity will take care of itself. Or, if I do the best that I can today ... tomorrow will be better for myself and others.
Aniko     Nov 3, 2009, 7:55pm EST
Perfectly put, Liz.
Dave A. Nov 3, 2009, 8:54pm EST
Yup.
Ferosh (Site Translator for LOLSPEAK)is O. Nov 10, 2009, 12:37am EST
I did not read this far before making my comments farther up the thread.... you've hit on it exactly, Liz. Whatever we do, will be fine, because something will always happen, and things will always work out, one way or another. It just might not work out the way we envisioned it, so to worry about it is a senseless waste of energy. That is not arrogant at all, but very wise.
Ann M. (Site Scryer) Nov 15, 2009, 9:32am EST
Buddah-sis!
Jerry Kays Nov 4, 2009, 1:26am EST
Jesus left some footprints behind him ... I would wonder if he might have done a thing or two differently had he known who and what was to follow him (?)
Liz [site-raven] Nov 4, 2009, 8:48am EST
Well, fiddle dee dee! I left you a comment Jerry and it went by-by.

My answer is no. I say no because I view Christ as perfection. I think that those who follow him need to change. I believe that is the challenge to each who embraces him.
Jerry Kays Nov 4, 2009, 12:32pm EST
Liz, I would probably have to agree with you ...but he might have, in retrospect, given a few more "warnings" about perceiving meanings more wisely. :-)
Ferosh (Site Translator for LOLSPEAK)is O. Nov 10, 2009, 12:38am EST
Sometimes, even when the truth is known, other people just aren't ready to hear or accept it.
Bent Lorentzen Nov 11, 2009, 2:42pm EST
Jerry but he might have, in retrospect, given a few more "warnings" about perceiving meanings more wisely.

I think much of what we think we know about the Christ is myth now, but the Aramaic language he used in his time was a workingman's language, very filled with colorful expletives. If I were to guess based on the very little I might know, Christ in the last few years spent a lot of time going from house to house, hanging out and dining in the Jewish tradition and teaching. I would guess he pretty much answered every reasonable question that came his way, but in the lingo and metaphors of his time. It would likely really confuse a lot of people if Christ got complicated by trying to out-think the future. He probably was focused on whoever and whatever "problem" was at hand in front of him, and most of those kinds of people issues did not include worrying about what some idiots a few hundred years later might do with whatever he was doing to help the person in hurt in front of him
Jerry Kays Nov 11, 2009, 4:10pm EST
I agree Bent ... especially when we know for a fact that he was not attempting to build "a religion" around his message, especially not one that idolized him in a worshipful manner ...

I sure do wish those who profess to follow him as a Him, would take the time to read the Urantia Book section (available on line as: THE URANTIA BOOK PART IV: THE LIFE AND TEACHINGS OF JESUS
) that completely chronicles his life with a diary type layout almost ... a day by day story that includes so much of what he really thought and intended ... but of course I understand their "fear" of stepping outside of the "authorized only" stories held in their "Book" only.
Richard Regener Nov 4, 2009, 2:55am EST
Footprints that stand the test of time only leave one imprint, an understanding that life always continuses regardless of it's physical form. Concepts are like dreams, a dime a dozen serving an unsustainable illusion of the past if you can't see beyond yourself.
If you cannot see beyond your own life towards a future, then of what value is your life?
Liz [site-raven] Nov 4, 2009, 8:45am EST
I thoroughly agree with your statement. And although I give my own footprints no thought, I do love seeing those of others. I often ask my veterans to think about what sort of footprint they wish to leave behind when we are writing.
Frank Luke Nov 4, 2009, 12:58pm EST
I think teachers, prophets included, and those who try to spread good advice, can never really know what effect their efforts will make. Some of the seeds of wisdom fall on fertile, others on fallow ground. Really good ideas are somehow a dime a dozen if you've noticed. So many cooks in an educated society, too busy cooking to notice any other good meals or recipes. We need a whole lot of kitchen crew, workers who will put their energy behind Obama after the dust has settled and get behind what he's attempting. It's important to be able to recognize good ideas and put your shoulder behind them to get them moving and actualized.
Ann M. (Site Scryer) Nov 7, 2009, 12:49pm EST
Good advice is like good art-- sometimes it's not appreciated until the artist is dead.
Frank Luke Nov 7, 2009, 1:16pm EST
Yeah, new ideas and art take time to digest, small comfort to struggling artists.
Ann M. (Site Scryer) Nov 9, 2009, 9:29am EST
That's really an odd karmic situation, now that I think about it.

Some artists have given society so much after they were dead (and their work finally "discovered.") Sometimes positing an afterlife (where they could reap the karmic rewards) is the only way to make things seem fair.
Frank Luke Nov 9, 2009, 12:46pm EST
re: pothumous artistic reward

It's maybe no comfort at all to dead artists, but no aspiring artist should get involved with art if fame and fortune are their main concerns. What really needs to be considered is if you're really talented enough to face the test of maybe long years of disregard and discouragement, and need to have a way to support your pleasure and hopes. Very fortunate and relatively few make it big. Teaching or day jobs are a must. As we know life isn't always fair. Posthumous fame isn't so bad, I'll gladly take it but don't count on it. I just consider my life in art has been a great ride and feel grateful having had it, the downs with the lovely upsides.
Ferosh (Site Translator for LOLSPEAK)is O. Nov 10, 2009, 12:40am EST
I would be happy in THIS life if I thought what I had to offer and leave behind would be of some benefit after I'm gone.... I would still reap some benefit of 'knowing' while I'm still alive.
Ann M. (Site Scryer) Nov 15, 2009, 9:34am EST
Frank, I think the value of posthumous art is that it enters our society's collective conscious and unconscious if it becomes famous enough. That's a pretty amazing footprint, if you think about it. Some of the famous paintings approach archetypes.
Frank Luke Nov 15, 2009, 11:19am EST
I suppose that artists think of their work as progeny and consider getting as many of their oeuvre-genes into the collective conscioiusness, like males try to get as many of their genes into the collective gene bank ??
Ann M. (Site Scryer) Nov 15, 2009, 11:54am EST
I'm not sure how conscious the art process is, Frank. Perhaps some artists do think like that.
Frank Luke Nov 4, 2009, 1:23pm EST
I heard the author of "Diet for a Small Planet" citing a statistic that unhealthy eating habits account for more ill health problems than smoking. As we know, both are the major health concerns of Americans today. To minimize health care costs, prevention would be a big step in that direction. Being more conscioius of what we put in our bodies, eating what we know rather than what's cheap and what we like regardless and taxing the hell out of cigarettes to make it hard to continue the unhealthful addiction.

The author also talked about the downside of beef consumption, not only the health issues, but the huge carbon footprint and degredation of the land and the cost of producing a pound of meat not commensurate to the enormous cost of feed and packing the meat. Seems a very counter-intuitive, counterproductive effort we need to really rethink and retrench, don't you think? Cut back on beef consumption seems a good tack for the environment and your health.
WM H. Nov 5, 2009, 2:07am EST
Anti smoking efforts were successful not so much because people care so much about the health of others but because it is simply annoying and potentially harmful to themselves. Eating habits impose far less of a direct impact on others. Why pick on beef? Isn't sugar just as problematic in its own way?
Aniko     Nov 5, 2009, 3:02am EST
I think Frank has made a distinction there between harm to oneself and harm to the environment by referring to the carbon footprint left by beef production.
Frank Luke Nov 5, 2009, 12:29pm EST
Beef is a big step in the right direction to minimize our carbon footprint, not only in the production but curbing our huge hamburger/steak appetites. Sugar, corn, megafarms all do their part in making a big carbon footprint, the list goes on. Anyone concerned can make their own list and consider how to help turn the situation around. It takes nations, a global concern and efforts, we know.
Aniko     Nov 6, 2009, 12:56am EST
Yeah, the list goes on... Everything we eat has a carbon footprint.

Farmer Slim aka Michael H Nov 6, 2009, 8:07pm EST
"Beef is a big step in the right direction to minimize our carbon footprint, not only in the production but curbing our huge hamburger/steak appetites." ( Frank)

"EPA scientists recognize that beef production contributes only 2 percent of the total U.S. greenhouse gas emissions compared to 80 percent for fossil fuel consumption."

Hmmm.
Frank Luke Nov 7, 2009, 12:03pm EST
The whole beef industry seems to be using much more resources than the poundage produced. That seems counterproductive, not dismissing your point but to add to the whole picture. ???
Frank Luke Nov 7, 2009, 12:45pm EST
Aniko, editting my previous comments:

The heart of the problem dictates that we must minimize our carbon footprint and some of the agriculture practices. Some of our consuming habits produce a heavier carbon footprint than others. To address climate warming conditions, we need to address our counter-productive practices and the agro-businesses has gotten a big pass so far. The mega pig and chicken farms are also contributing to a lot of pollution. We consumers are part of that problem, part of the equation is our having the voracious appetites we have but we gotta eat, right? Our future is dependent on our personal and collective choices.