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by Bert B.
Member since:
December 19, 2005

Religious Belief is a Virus

September 27, 2009 08:54 PM EDT (Updated: September 27, 2009 09:04 PM EDT)
views: 300 | rating: 9.1/10 (10 votes) | comments: 356

 

This is the fifth in a series of fictional discussions with my imaginary friend Al.

To understand the background for this piece, I recommend that you read one or more of the previous ones.

A Question of Faith

Religion and Morality

Diane

God, Pluto and Limburger Cheese

We were starting our second beer, and I had been waiting for this moment. Al is a very smart guy, a trained scientist with advanced degrees in engineering. He is a kind and thoughtful person. He is also a devout Christian. I am a nonbeliever. We have had many spirited discussions about religion, but they have always remained civil. We have never let our differences of opinion on matters of faith threaten our friendship. I was planning to spring a little trap on him.

I mentioned a recent terrorist attack in Iraq that had killed a number of innocent civilians along with several American soldiers.

“How can any religion condone such actions?” I asked. “The whole idea of Islam is crazy, though. Mohammed appoints himself as Allah’s prophet and proceeds to write the Koran, supposedly with Allah dictating. But if you read it, with all its logical and grammatical errors, it was clearly written by a not-too-literate man named Mohammed. He claimed he was the only real prophet. All the rest were fakes. The man was either a charlatan or he was deluded. And then, he flew to Heaven on a horse. I haven’t seen too many flying horses except on gas station signs.”

Al laughed at that, and agreed that Islam was indeed pretty crazy.

And then I dropped the bomb.

“Okay, let me change a few words in what I just said. “Jesus must have been pretty delusional to think he could talk to God. And his claim that he is the only true prophet…ridiculous! But even that isn’t as bad as the whole idea that he was born by immaculate conception, and after he rose from the dead and was lifted up into heaven. That’s even crazier than flying horses!”

Al wasn’t smiling. “Those are historical facts. It’s all in the Bible.”

“And the Bible was written by whom?”

I answered my own question before Al could open his mouth.

“Written by men, but God dictated the words. Gee, that sounds familiar. And judging by the contradictions and inconsistencies, one would have to conclude that God had a lot of human failings. He would have failed a high school English class.”

Al laughed at that. “Yeah, he probably would have failed English class, since it wasn’t invented when the Bible was written.”

“But,” he continued, “If the Bible isn’t fact, then two billion people on the planet are wrong.”

“If the Koran isn’t fact then more than one billion Muslims are wrong,” I countered. “Do we decide who is right by a vote? And if so, we better hurry up and hold the election pretty soon, because the Muslims are gaining on the Christians every day.”

Al shook his head. “Most Muslims are ignorant Arabs who were indoctrinated with that stuff since they were born.”

“And how is that different from what most Christian families do? Are American kids any less brainwashed than Iranian kids? The fact is, most children are taught religious beliefs as soon as they are old enough to understand language, and most of them retain the religion of their parents for their entire life. That’s not surprising. Children are very receptive to anything their parents say, and once the belief system is in place, it’s hard to dislodge. Later in life when they are adults, they could examine those beliefs critically, but most of them don’t. Have you ever really, REALLY thought about it? Questioned it?”

“Of course I have!” Al exclaimed. “But deep down, in the center of my soul, I know that Jesus is my lord.”

I knew better than to question that statement. There is nothing you can say to a devout religious believer, no logic, no reason, to answer such a statement.

“Okay, I know that you believe that, but I just want you to think…to realize…that there are a lot of people on this planet who do not share your convictions…who think all Christians are wrong, and doomed to hellfire and damnation, just as you think they are. Maybe you are all wrong!”

We were both silent for a moment. Then I continued.

“I just read a book called ‘The God Virus’ by Darrel Ray. He makes the case that religious belief afflicts the brain of believers, suspending logic and reason in matters related to their faith-based beliefs, but leaving them fully intact in evaluating competing religious beliefs. I want you to think back to the beginning of this discussion, how you were able to see through the fantasies and deceptions of Islam, but when I presented very similar ideas associated with Christianity, you were completely unable to examine them critically. It’s as if a disease gains control of the minds of religious believers, and it spreads through their preachers and priests and imams. Right now, it seems to me that Islam is winning the battle. Their virus is stronger than the Christian virus, because it doesn’t care about separation of church and state. So the power of the government is enlisted in the coercion of people to become believers. Our secular society is at a disadvantage to that. I know that you have no use for the lunatic fringe fundamentalists who want to take over our government, discard the Constitution and replace it with Biblical laws, but that is probably a natural reaction of the Christian virus to the perceived threat from Islam.”

Al was looking at me in total perplexity. “What are you raving about? Islam will never replace Christianity. Those people are doomed. When Judgment Day comes, they will all burn.”

I decided maybe a third beer was needed, and I wanted to let things cool off a little.

We changed the subject to health care.

That was a really bad idea!

Expand Tags: christianity, fanaticism, beliefs, faith, religion, churches, fundamentalism, churches and politics, spirituality, god
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Comments: 356 ( 1 removed by Bert B. )

Jim G. Sep 27, 2009, 9:19pm EDT
A great post, Bert. I wish that you would post more often.

"Their virus is stronger than the Christian virus, because it doesn’t care about separation of church and state."

That says it all. Is that why the GOP has gone to bed with the evangelical religious right?
Bert B. Sep 27, 2009, 10:58pm EDT
I don't think so, Jim. I think they have done it for the age-old reason:
VOTES!
Karl Leuba Sep 29, 2009, 2:14am EDT
Bert, thanks, I would like to be in on more of your conversations. This idea that the GOP has gone to bed with the Evangelical Fundamentalists is EXACTLY RIGHT. They are bedding the "Super Christers" to get votes, and they are NOT serving their interests except with palaver, to continue getting those votes.

Ask this...has the government restored Christian, or any other Prayer to Schools? They have had a couple of decades to do it. Has Abortion been restricted in any meaning full way. It's been 36 years since Roe v Wade, and even longer since the first state repeal of abortion restrictions. The GOP is consistently breaking promises to the Fundamentalists, and to other people of faith as well.

Bert B. Sep 29, 2009, 2:38am EDT
Karl,
The one thing the GOP has been able to do, though, is pack the Supreme Court with Catholic fundamentalists, and the threat to Roe v. Wade is real and immediate. And they have managed to water down health care reform so that it will be worthless. The Dems folded on abortion funding, hoping that would garner some support from the other side. NAH! All they did was reset the target to eliminate funding for contraceptives, even for married couples!
They don't want health care reform. They want the whole thing to be a disaster for the Democrats and Obama and to Hell with the millions of uninsured people.
Jerry Kays Sep 30, 2009, 3:08am EDT
EXTRA EXTRA EXTRA ... HOT OFF THE PRESS ... NOW HEAR THIS (WATCH VIDEO OR READ WORDS ABOUT THE VERY SUBJECT MENTIONED ABOVE)

http://www.democracynow.org/2009/9/4/republican_gomorrah_inside_the_movement_that
Jerry Kays Sep 30, 2009, 3:10am EDT
PS ... a "bug" seems to have cut off the right side of the above comment (on my screen anyway) ... but the link still works
Jerry Kays Sep 30, 2009, 3:18am EDT
PPS ... this EXPOSE was/is important enough that I reposted it at the bottom of the thread as of this time. (feel free to comment where-ever)
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Ruth MacGill Sep 28, 2009, 2:30am EDT
What really gets me is how poorly a lot of Christians follow the small amount of the teachings that are said to come from Jesus. If his words are translated and handed down with any kind of accuracy, he preached about loving each other and helping the poor and down trodden, turning the other cheek in arguments, not wearing flashy raiment or something like that. Not much of that with a lot of so-called Christians. With a lot of them it looks more like they worship the almighty dollar.
Mark M. Sep 28, 2009, 7:39am EDT
What really gets me is how poorly a lot of Christians follow the small amount of the teachings that are said to come from Jesus.

Hi Ruth,
Do you know what Jesus taught about the integrity of the Holy Scriptures?

-Mark
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Ruth MacGill Sep 28, 2009, 2:34am EDT
My father insisted we kids not be taken to church or Sunday school until we were old enough to think for ourselves. We still got initiated to Christianity in our one-room school by having to bow our heads and say the Lord's Prayer every school day. But my father's plan worked. I feel a lot more spiritual out in the wilds than in church. I don't feel a connection between God and all that ritual in church. If I went to any church it would be the Quaker church.
Mark M. Sep 28, 2009, 7:41am EDT
I feel a lot more spiritual out in the wilds than in church. I don't feel a connection between God and all that ritual in church.

I'll bet you do and I'll bet you are never confronted with your sin and your need for a Savior on your jaunts through the scrub.

-Mark
Bert B. Sep 28, 2009, 2:48pm EDT
Maybe she is not suffering from the guilt complex imposed on believers about their "sinfulness," and doesn't feel any need for a Savior.
Mark M. Sep 28, 2009, 9:32pm EDT
the guilt complex imposed on believers about their "sinfulness

Who would be doing the imposing, Bert? Would you make them to feel guilty for such an imposition? Is that the purpose of this little mini-series that you've penned?
I wonder; are there benefits to guilt feelings?
Disbelievers must also account for their sinfulness. Their conscience must surely remind them that, they too, will stand one day before the Judge. What are you doing with your sin, Bert?

-Mark
Bert B. Sep 28, 2009, 10:49pm EDT
Organized religions are BASED ON GUILT, Mark. Surely you must recognize that. How else could they get people to pony up part of their hard-earned savings, just to maintain that grandiose edifice and its employees, so that they could spend that money mostly for promotion and proselytization, so that they could take in yet MORE money from MORE people.
It's how a virus works, Mark...it is only interested in one thing...survival and continued growth. Read the book I referenced in the article. I dare you.
Mark M. Sep 28, 2009, 11:36pm EDT
Organized religions are BASED ON GUILT, Mark.

Who's your authority on this, Bert? Does he have an axe to grind just like you? How is he promoting his book and pimping his philosophy? Is he giving his book away for free?

Are you a member of an organized religion that you can speak so capably about the motives of its membership? The term organized religion leads one to believe that there must be corresponding unorganized religions. Are they viral in nature as well?

It's how a virus works, Mark...it is only interested in one thing...survival and continued growth.

I count two things here, Bert. But, even so, if you define a virus this way, the tree in my backyard would be a virus, all three of my kids would be viruses, and so would you. . .

-Mark

Bert B. Sep 29, 2009, 1:39am EDT
I dunno about you, Mark, but I am definitely NOT interested in growth...especially of my waistline!
Karl Leuba Sep 29, 2009, 2:19am EDT
Ruth, My father too. But when McCarthy threatened the livelihood of anyone who was not attending church regularly, he established a Unitarian Universalist Congregation in his school, which was our house. Kept us out of trouble with the Witch Hunters, and gave me a really odd spiritual outlook for life.
Rick McGirr Oct 6, 2009, 3:01pm EDT
So deluded by the strength of the trip they're on they would scoff at the chance to stop using.
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Ruth MacGill Sep 28, 2009, 2:36am EDT
It's hard to believe the terrible wars that have killed millions of people because of disagreements about the mythology they call religion.
Mark M. Sep 28, 2009, 7:43am EDT
Wasn't this fact acknowledged by Jesus as well in the gospels?

-Mark
Bert B. Sep 28, 2009, 2:50pm EDT
So he acknowledged it. So what? Ruth's criticism still stands. Conflicts over religious beliefs are responsible for a LARGE portion of the suffering and death throughout history.
Mark M. Sep 28, 2009, 9:52pm EDT
So he acknowledged it. So what?

If the Lord of Life, the Alpha and Omega, told us that it would be this way, why would we find it hard to believe?

Jesus answered: '...You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.
Matthew 24:4-5

Conflicts over religious beliefs are indeed symptoms of something larger which breeds suffering and death, but only symptoms. Maybe your time and ink would be more wisely spent addressing the real root cause of these human tragedies.
When G.K. Chesterton responded to a local newspaper's essay prompt - What's Wrong With the World? His essay consisted of only two words:
I am.
What's wrong with you, Bert?

-Mark
Bert B. Sep 28, 2009, 10:59pm EDT
If your God acknowledges and indeed approves of war and mayhem and conflict in order to further the fortunes of HIS religion, then I say your God is a BAD GOD and I denounce him and I reject him, just as I do Allah of the Muslim religion who also advocates the killing of "infidels."
The question is not what is wrong with me. The question is, what is wrong with YOU and YOUR GOD that you cannot let people live in peace.
I reject any religion that announces that it is the ONLY RIGHT religion, and that all others are wrong, because that is the source of hatred and intolerance and war and oppression and human suffering. Any religion that advocates such things is EVIL.
Mark M. Sep 28, 2009, 11:16pm EDT
Bert,
Have you ever been to the beach head at Normandy? Do you know the story of that fateful day in 1944? Do you suppose God had a hand in what happened there?
That might be straying from our conversation though. I have discovered some more things that you are intolerant of:

God's sovereign right to do as He pleases
God's requirements for worship and access to His holy presence
Religion that insists on its doctrines
Religion that calls heresy wrong

-Mark

P.S. If God is a BAD GOD, are you the man who would be king? Good God Bert, Would you be our GOOD GOD?
Sam C. Sep 28, 2009, 11:38pm EDT
D-Day? Bert as God because you can't account for Christians killing Christians in the name of Christ?
Bert B. Sep 29, 2009, 1:27am EDT
From what I know of D Day, we were damn lucky that it wasn't a disaster.
You can attribute that to your god if you wish. I won't argue with you, because the question is inarguable...as are most questions concerning faith-based beliefs. If you recall, I said that in the article above.
Karl Leuba Sep 29, 2009, 2:32am EDT
Mark M.

Pardon me for interrupting. BUT THERE IS NO GOD TO DO THE DEEDS YOU ATTRIBUTE TO HIM/HER/IT/THEM/US/OTHERS. Simply put, there are now and there were then wars. Takes no genius to predict war, even when the whole human population of earth was 300 million.

Plato quotes Sonchis

“There have been and there will be many and divers destructions of mankind, of which the greatest are fire and water, and lesser ones by countless other means. For in truth the story that is told in your country as well as ours, how once upon a time Phaethon, son of Helios, yoked his father’s chariot, and, because he was unable to drive it along the course taken by his father, burnt up all that was upon the earth and himself perished by a thunderbolt-that story, as it is told, has a fashion of a legend, but the truth of its lies in the occurrence of a shifting of the bodies in the heavens which move around the earth, and a destruction of the things on the earth by fierce fire, which recurs at long intervals.”

Sonchis an Egyptian of Antiquity. SORT OF ODD, Plato died nearly 400 years before Christ was born. And about 600 years before The Book of Revelations was written down.
Mark M. Sep 29, 2009, 7:49am EDT
Pardon me for interrupting. BUT THERE IS NO GOD TO DO THE DEEDS YOU ATTRIBUTE TO HIM/HER/IT/THEM/US/OTHERS.

Hi Karl,

Who told you this?
Why would you believe such nonsense?
Have you disbelieved God as well?

-Mark
Mark M. Sep 29, 2009, 7:52am EDT
because you can't account for Christians killing Christians in the name of Christ?

Hi Sam,

How do you account for such things?

-Mark
Bert B. Sep 29, 2009, 2:31pm EDT
"Why would you believe such nonsense?"

Ah, now there is a pretty good example of intolerance.
He has his opinion. You have yours.
Why is his nonsense and yours is not?
Jerry Kays Sep 30, 2009, 3:21am EDT
WHY DOES MARK ALWAYS ASK SO MANY QUESTIONS ... IS IT BECAUSE HE HAS NO REAL ANSWERS OF HIS OWN ??
''The One & Only BERF" .. Sep 30, 2009, 3:31am EDT
Well, Jerry, why don't you provide him with some of yours??
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John Knight Sep 28, 2009, 2:51am EDT
I think your conversations with your imaginary friends, are a very thin veil for bigotry and hatred, Bert.
Bert B. Sep 28, 2009, 4:08am EDT
There is a lot of hatred in the world, John. Muslim fanatics hate Christians, Christian fundamentalists hate Muslims. I don't hate anybody, but I sure feel threatened by religious fanatics. I fear Muslim terrorists for obvious reasons, but I also fear the internal terrorists who are trying to hijack our government. They are mostly fundamentalist Christians, both Protestant and Catholic, but Mormons are also welcomed into the big tent of what Darrel Ray calls the virus of American Civil Religion that is infecting our political system and our culture.
You should read the book I referenced above, John. But I know you won't.
Jerry Kays Sep 28, 2009, 1:30pm EDT
I am surely with you on this Bert.
John Knight Sep 28, 2009, 7:10pm EDT
Bert,

You should stop spreading malicious gossip, fear, and hatred, but I pretty much know you won't. You've cooked up a crazy rationale, like all the fear mongering bigots do, wherein you're a great hero for generating animosity toward, and intolerance of, your target.

Many people are just too self-centered, it seems, to see through the old BS . . calling the target intolerant, then fomenting intolerance of them, is too subtle for hateful people to avoid. It's a double-talk that the violent of mind, cannot resist; "Those kinda people , are too judgmental ". . . "That group is dangerous, and ought to be dealt with" . . . "That person is spreading lies, and we cannot allow our free society to be ruined by such behavior".

Attackin' in the name of peace, Accusin' in the name of cooperation, Hatin' in the name of love . .
Bert B. Sep 28, 2009, 9:05pm EDT
Your response is classic, John. You are infected with the virus, and you are attacking the immune response. Thanks for making Dr. Ray's point
John Knight Sep 28, 2009, 9:48pm EDT
"Your response is classic, John."

Bullshit, I say . . if it's classic, show me anyplace else it exists. And no, I don't mean anyplace some other bigot makes nasty accusations, but anyplace the sort of double-talk you're doing here, to excuse violence and malicious slander, is spoken of directly.

Obviously, it would not be possible to respond in any negative way to your crap, without you mouthing some more crap about the response being negative, and so some sort of terrible sin, cause Bert the magnificent, and his little sock puppet, are not to be questioned on this slight of tongue nonsense. That's just more of the same double-talk, to render any that do not cow to such hateful bigotry, wo5rthy of further defamation. BFD
Bert B. Sep 28, 2009, 10:32pm EDT
When all else fails, resort to personal attacks. You haven't changed, John.
Go read the book I referenced. You will find out that you are...INFECTED!
Jerry Kays Sep 29, 2009, 2:01pm EDT
Miz Owl and John, your religion was hijacked long ago ... and that is the problem with you all, you have been deceived into calling the truth false.
Bert B. Sep 29, 2009, 2:41pm EDT
I'm not sure I understand your question, Miz. I think the Constitution is a well-conceived document that has done a pretty good job of keeping us from becoming a Christian theocracy (so far at least), despite the fact that a majority of our citizens describe themselves as Christians. I have lots of problems with the influence of money on our government, but that is an unrelated issue to the current discussion.
Please explain to me how you think it is "hijacked" and what you think should be done about it, and then maybe I can figure out your question.
John Knight Sep 29, 2009, 11:51pm EDT
Bert,

"When all else fails, resort to personal attacks. You haven't changed, John."

Oh, I see, taking issue with your accusations that I am "infected" with some horrible mind destroying "virus", is a personal attack now. Not just sitting there, while you brow beat and defame billions of human beings for nor not sharing your particular views, is some sort of immorality, some sort of heinous breach in civil discourse now . . . How dare anyone not bow to the all-knowing Bert, whose judgment is the final word on who is dangerous, delusional, maladjusted, and whatever else happens to pop into Bert's majestic head ; )

Well, excuuuuse me, Mr. God.
Bert B. Sep 29, 2009, 11:53pm EDT
You are excused, John. Have a nice day.
John Knight Sep 29, 2009, 11:54pm EDT
Have a nice Eternity, Bert ; )
Jerry Kays Sep 30, 2009, 3:27am EDT
Funny thing ... I'll bet that Bert has a far better eternity (whether he wants it or not) than you will John. By their fruits they shall be known ... and some expecting the best will be told "Depart from me, I know you not, you are not of my fold" (or something to that effect).
Jerry Kays Sep 30, 2009, 3:29am EDT
PS ... just a bit of "wisdom" from a "sock puppet" ...
''The One & Only BERF" .. Sep 30, 2009, 3:35am EDT
I really liked that deep "or something to that effect" analysis, Jerry..........

Bert B. Sep 30, 2009, 11:28pm EDT
Ramona, you are beginning to bore me. I created a fictional character, and used him to construct some dialogues that I thought would be interesting.
Either you do not understand literature or you are being obtuse.
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Sandy (Site Psychic™) Knauer Sep 28, 2009, 4:22am EDT
Nice job, Bert! I've missed Al. Glad you brought him back out.

"We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing-all-powerful God who creates faulty Humans and then blames them for his own mistakes." Gene Roddenberry

"We must also question the people who buy into this faulty logic and insinuate that it is we who are confused." Sandy Knauer
Bert B. Sep 28, 2009, 9:12pm EDT
Thanks, Sandy. I can see that I need a sequel to this. There is much, much more to say about Dr. Ray's book, and I can't wait to hear John Knight's polemics as he attacks me. His antics demonstrate the validity of the viral nature of religion.
Bert B. Sep 29, 2009, 2:42pm EDT
HUH?
Bert B. Sep 29, 2009, 9:25pm EDT
C'mon, Miz. "Viralant?" WTF are you talking about?
Bert B. Sep 29, 2009, 11:39pm EDT
Okay, I did...online and in my Oxford American Dictionary. There is no such word that I can find. I assume you mean virulent.
I still don't understand your comment:
"But is there anything "viralant" that either of you can say IN YOUR OWN WORDS?"
C'mon, I am willing to respond, but I still don't understand what you are talking about, Miz.
I will say this: The article I wrote was written IN MY OWN WORDS. I talk about Dr. Lay's book on the viral qualities of religion, and how virulent they are, though. But I would not claim that my writings are "viralant," since I don't know what that means.
Jerry Kays Sep 30, 2009, 3:33am EDT
Miz Owl, your "moniker" is a farce, you may deem yourself so, but you are nowhere near wise. (hardly able to spell even)
''The One & Only BERF" .. Sep 30, 2009, 3:37am EDT
Hey, Jerry, if you can do it, so can she...........
Ferosh (Site Translator for LOLSPEAK)is O. Sep 30, 2009, 4:21pm EDT
But why the Owl? Horses, deer, and many other creatures are nocturnal......
Jerry Kays Sep 30, 2009, 8:11pm EDT
I am "the" sock-puppet ... I would bet anyway, according to John the wise.

BTW, I'll also bet here that nobody "hates" Christians ... just have a strong dislike for some of the most vocal hypocritical, pious and overly righteous ones who don't know squat about the deeper meanings of their supposed religion (the ones who really do the hating here). Those things that Jesus and others actually attempted to teach them. Those who give such a "bad name" to the whole concept of religion. If the shoe fits ... ... ...
Ferosh (Site Translator for LOLSPEAK)is O. Oct 1, 2009, 12:30am EDT
Well, thank you for the most indepth and clarifying answer........ ?
Jerry Kays Oct 1, 2009, 3:33am EDT
Naw, it's not hatred, just an extreme dislike of some ... never all. When those most despised (extremely disliked) want and expect more respect, the first thing they do is bring into the game "all" of their fellows, especially the best of the lot, because that seems, to them, to hide them, to better be able to lose themselves in the crowd and not have to take the blame for their own personal actions ... hopefully getting the good ones, the liked ones, to even come to their defense as "fellow" Christians ... "thieves" count on "honor amongst thieves" and will even indite and incriminate the innocent for their own selfish benefit.


BTW, the "charges" of "sock-puppet" was initially brought up by John aimed at supporters of Bert (which just happened to be me ... and with my history of relationships with John, I did not miss that intention).
Kristi C. Oct 1, 2009, 12:13pm EDT
Oh now that's a bit harsh since you very well know I have several Christian friends on another site. Of course you constantly referred to them as "ear-ticklers" and "false christians" simply because they disagreed with your viewpoints. Heck you even called a number of them "homosexual pagans".
Alexsandralyn S. Oct 2, 2009, 12:45am EDT
"homosexual pagans"

LOL, hey, I resemble that remark.
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Debbie G. Sep 28, 2009, 4:34am EDT
I would propose that the virus is not either religion, but distorted cells allowed to grow within them. Let that condemnation seed, the superiority it breeds, be the thing disdained; not those followers who use their limbs to gaze farther and higher than otherwise they might.
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Alexsandralyn S. Sep 28, 2009, 5:35am EDT
I would think that Richard Dawkins might happen to agree with you. Viruses of the Mind.
Bert B. Sep 28, 2009, 1:05pm EDT
Yes indeed, Alex. Dr. Ray cites Dawkins' book in his, and acknowledges the influence that Dawkins has had on his thinking.
Bert B. Sep 30, 2009, 11:23pm EDT
Hmmm. Well I guess every writer of fiction who creates characters is a lunatic by that definition, Ramona. But I think you know better.
I have no problem with you talking with Jesus, by the way.
Bert B. Sep 30, 2009, 11:53pm EDT
The Twilight Zone...that brings back memories, Miz. I guess it is arguable who in this discussion is dwelling there, though. And I think that all those groups you mention are worthy of the same respect as Christians. They are all human beings, living their lives without breaking any laws...except Biblical ones, of course. I think they have no more need to remain silent than Christians. They have a right to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness...don't they?
Jerry Kays Oct 1, 2009, 3:38am EDT
It seems, as usual, that like begets like, lunacy begets lunacy ... guess where it all came from ...
Ferosh (Site Translator for LOLSPEAK)is O. Oct 1, 2009, 9:13am EDT
I'm guessing, Jerry, that it all came from the Twilight Zone? lol
Bert B. Oct 1, 2009, 1:18pm EDT
Miz...First, you misread my post. With regard to non-Christians, I said:
"They are all human beings, living their lives without breaking any laws...except Biblical ones, of course."
As non-Christians, are we all supposed to be bound by your rules? Now that WOULD be a theocracy, right?
The lack of respect that you and your Christian friends feel, is shared by we non-Christians, I assure you. John Knight and I have tangled many times before and he always resorts to personal insults and attacks. I have rarely responded in kind, but sometimes I can't help myself. As for Mark, he just keeps spouting the Bible and telling us how wrong we are not to accept Jesus.
Even though I realize that he thinks he is doing his Christian duty, it is tiresome to hear the same litany over and over. I don't think you can blame us for finally telling him to cut out the bullshit.
I have no particular problem with your posts, by the way. You are MUCH more entertaining than either of the aforementioned two.

Alexsandralyn S. Oct 2, 2009, 12:38am EDT
The Evolution of Psyche and Society by Lloyd deMause is a link that might interest you, Bert. Psychohistory, the science of historical motivations, combines the insights of psychotherapy with the research methodology of the social sciences to understand the emotional origin of the social and political behavior of groups and nations, past and present.
Bert B. Oct 2, 2009, 1:24pm EDT
Thanks, Alex. I have never heard of deMause or his work. This is what's great about Gather...meeting someone like you with new interesting ideas.
Alexsandralyn S. Oct 2, 2009, 11:56pm EDT
*chuckle* Well, deMause's work gave me such a giggle of wry amusement that I thought you might appreciate it, too. I can't claim the discovery of the link, though, that was given to me by a friend and I'm just passing it along :-)
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Mark M. Sep 28, 2009, 7:45am EDT
Hi Bert,
Do you believe in God and what He has revealed to us in Holy Writ?
From your writings, it appears that you have ignored His. . .

-Mark
Bert B. Sep 28, 2009, 12:53pm EDT
As I said at the beginning of this article, I am a nonbeliever, Mark.
Mark M. Sep 28, 2009, 2:56pm EDT
Hi again Bert,
Sorry, I was under the impression that this was a work of fiction.
So you definitely have some preconceived notions about religion and deity, an axe to grind so to speak. . .
Have you disbelieved God, then?

-Mark
Bert B. Sep 28, 2009, 3:09pm EDT
You make a good point. This is a fictional piece, but it is written in the First Person, and I must admit that the views expressed by the protagonist are, for the most part, the views of the writer. Al's views, and the stories about him in the other pieces, are completely manufactured.
As for my "preconceived notions about religion and deity," well HEAVENS, YES!!
I would never deny that. Doesn't everybody have such preconceived notions?
Don't you? Of course you do.
Do I have "an axe to grind, so to speak?" In the opening paragraph, I stated that I was a nonbeliever. Whether that applies to me as a character in this little play, or as the writer is irrelevant. The views stated by the protagonist after that are clearly those of a nonbeliever.
Mark M. Sep 28, 2009, 9:56pm EDT
The views stated by the protagonist after that are clearly those of a nonbeliever.

What is it then that you have disbelieved?

-Mark
Bert B. Sep 28, 2009, 10:33pm EDT
What are you trying to get me to say? I am a nonbeliever. I DO NOT BELIEVE IN A SUPERNATURAL BEING.
Mark M. Sep 28, 2009, 10:46pm EDT
I have asked you if you have disbelieved God? Have you? A simple 'yes' or 'no' will suffice. . .

-Mark
Bert B. Sep 28, 2009, 10:53pm EDT
WTF!! Are you dense? Read my multiple other answers to this question elsewhere in this thread.
Mark M. Sep 28, 2009, 11:00pm EDT
C'mon Bert - just answer the question there, captain. Have you disbelieved God? yes or no

-Mark
Kristi C. Sep 28, 2009, 11:40pm EDT
Well seeing as "God" is not existing in nature or subject to explanation according to natural laws "God" is a supernatural being and as Bert already stated MANY MANY times. He does not believe in supernatural beings, which would include "God.
Kathy W. Sep 28, 2009, 11:49pm EDT
If it makes it any easier to put all this in perspective? I'll offer this up.

I believe in the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, and the Tooth Fairey.
I have seen the result of these fictional characters as a child: at Easter, Christmas, and when I lost early teeth.
This is the only truth I have witnessed.
And it was all performed by my parents--who loved us.

I have never been to the mountaintop or seen the tablets.
Has anyone actually SEEN the tablets?

I have never had a bush explode into miraculous flame and speak to me... However, I have a particular Bush I'd like to offer up to the flaming god.

Wilka
Bert B. Sep 29, 2009, 1:46am EDT
Hmmm. I am looking closely at Mark's question. He's playing a word game with me, I guess. I say I am a NONbeliever, and he keeps asking me if I am a DISbeliever. If you are trying to get me to say that I have DIScarded my belief in a god, then you are wrong, Mark. I do not believe that even at the earliest age in my memory, I ever believed in any god or God or supernatural being or Heavenly Father or ANY OTHER NAME YOU WANT TO GIVE YOUR GOD.
Now, once and for all, have I finally made this absolutely and completely clear?
Mark M. Sep 29, 2009, 7:45am EDT
Now, once and for all, have I finally made this absolutely and completely clear?

What's become abundantly clear Bert is your refusal to answer my question. God has made Himself abundantly clear as well. He has spoken. He is there and He is not silent. . .

Have you disbelieved Him? yes or no

-Mark
Kristi C. Sep 29, 2009, 10:52am EDT
Seriously Mark, is that the best you have? A pathetic play on words to try to get Bert to say "I believe in your God but turned my back on him". If you had taken your head out of the sand you would see Bert telling you he has not now, nor ever, believed in your God. Therefore he cannot disbelieve in something he has never believed in to begin with!
Mark M. Sep 29, 2009, 2:26pm EDT
Hi Kristi,
Fair enough.
If the protagonist of the story won't give straight answers to simple questions then maybe the antagonist will. . .

What is it that Bert's buddy, Al, has believed?

-Mark
Bert B. Sep 29, 2009, 2:45pm EDT
Mark, I'm done with you. Whatever game you are playing, I find it boring.
Mark M. Sep 29, 2009, 3:07pm EDT
Bert, I'm done with you, too. Put Al on the line; I want to talk to him.

-Mark
Kristi C. Sep 29, 2009, 3:11pm EDT
What is it that Bert's buddy, Al, has believed?

Don't know never met the man and I never will seeing as he is imaginary. Really is it that important that Bert makes up a character in a series of posts to show the types of questions he expects believers to pose to him(or have posed to him in the past)? You're grasping at straws Mark. Are you jealous of the attention Al gets?
At least Al has a degree of rational thinking! Which is more than I can say for you after witnessing you chase your tail in guttural rhetoric
Jerry Kays Sep 29, 2009, 3:34pm EDT
If Mark had never placed his head in the sand he would not be like he is, maybe like us instead ... but Mark likes the sand for the same reasons Ostriches do.
Kristi C. Sep 29, 2009, 3:48pm EDT
Actually that is a common myth about ostriches believed to have begun with the writings of Pliny the Elder. In which he states that an ostrich believes they are hidden entirely by thrusting their heads in a bush or shrub.
Jerry Kays Sep 29, 2009, 5:09pm EDT
True or not, it still makes the point intended. IMnsHO. :-)
Kristi C. Sep 29, 2009, 5:11pm EDT
Oh I agree, I just like to throw out random little known facts every now and then. Keeps people on their toes! :D
Kristi C. Sep 29, 2009, 7:23pm EDT
And you claim to be a messenger of Christ yet spew hatred, condemnation, and vile names at anyone who does not agree with you in a very un-Christ like manner.
Who is the confused one here?
Kristi C. Sep 29, 2009, 11:14pm EDT
You won't last here long.
Jerry Kays Sep 30, 2009, 3:36am EDT
MO, your hate will consume you.
Jerry Kays Sep 30, 2009, 1:17pm EDT
Truth is UNconditional Love ... more or less.
Ferosh (Site Translator for LOLSPEAK)is O. Sep 30, 2009, 4:25pm EDT
Mark and Bert,

Word semantics are often the ploy used by some people(Mark M.) to invoke a response from someone(Bert B.) when a total lack of comprehension(from Mark's end) of the conversation is present.
Jerry Kays Sep 30, 2009, 5:18pm EDT
So true Ferosh, it is often an attempt to cover over ones own ignorance.
Ferosh (Site Translator for LOLSPEAK)is O. Oct 1, 2009, 8:50am EDT
I say, I do not know how(or why) to respond...... lol
Jerry Kays Oct 1, 2009, 7:07pm EDT
me too, that is why I didn't ...
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Farmer Slim aka Michael H Sep 28, 2009, 8:12am EDT
Many Christian extremists don't care about the separation of church and state either Bert....except that there is supposed to be a separation. There are dozens of easily obtained references for this. One is HERE.

Sarah Palin associated herself with various people who want to infiltrate our government for the purpose of religious control. HERE

Want to read a really good article about the effect of religious fanaticism? PLEASE READ THIS (Mark Morford..SF Chronicle)

In Morford's essay, a link is provided to a video interview between Rachel Maddow and Frank Schaeffer...a former fundamentalist who has now rejected the fundamentalist platform. THIS VIDEO IS A MUST SEE ! HERE

Bert B. Sep 28, 2009, 1:02pm EDT
I realized after I wrote this, Michael, that I had erred in characterizing Christian religions as not interested in infiltrating government. Thank you for correcting this. I will offer one more example: This statement by Mike Huckabee, a Republican Presidential candidate in the last election.
"Some of my opponents do not want to change the Constitution, but I believe it's a lot easier to change the Constitution than it would be to change the word of the living God, and that's what we need to do is to amend the Constitution so it's in God's standards rather than try to change God's standards."
Farmer Slim aka Michael H Sep 28, 2009, 1:35pm EDT
"The Founding Fathers envisioned a robustly Christian yet religiously tolerant America, with churches serving as vital institutions that would eclipse the state in importance." — Ron Paul
Bert B. Sep 28, 2009, 2:40pm EDT
I find that statement to be self-contradictory, Slim. "Robust" religions are never tolerant of their competition. Like any other business or political organization (organized religions are BOTH!) as their strength increases, so does their desire to dominate and eliminate the competition.
Mark M. Sep 28, 2009, 2:50pm EDT
the separation of church and state

Slim,
What do you mean by the term church above?

-Mark
Farmer Slim aka Michael H Sep 28, 2009, 4:13pm EDT
I agree Bert...religion is a business and a political effort.
Jerry Kays Sep 28, 2009, 4:57pm EDT
Huckabee is scary ...
Sam C. Sep 28, 2009, 8:38pm EDT
Don't know what "Founders" Paul was talking about but they certainly were NOT American founders. What utter nonsense.

I find the defensivness of "Christians" to be ironic. There is nothing in the Bible that justifies most of what passes as Christian practice in America today. Were Christians to be truly Biblical in the New Testament sense the faith might really be a social force as it was before Constantine the Great. As it is it has become merely a vehicle for despots to mold the gullible for political advantage.
Bert B. Sep 28, 2009, 9:17pm EDT
What comment are you referring to, Sam? I can't figure out who Paul is.
Sam C. Sep 28, 2009, 9:25pm EDT
Farmer Slim's Ron Paul quote above.
Bert B. Sep 28, 2009, 10:35pm EDT
Oh, shoot. I'm sorry. I'm lookin' for a post by somebody named Paul.
Farmer Slim aka Michael H Sep 28, 2009, 10:58pm EDT
Ron Paul is full of lies that he offers as fact..and the "facts" pass as such for those who do not care about the truth, but have a self vested interest in the melding of the state with the church.

Ron Paul from his "The War on Religion"...

"The notion of a rigid separation between church and state has no basis in either the text of the Constitution or the writings of our Founding Fathers. On the contrary, our Founders’ political views were strongly informed by their religious beliefs. Certainly the drafters of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, both replete with references to God, would be aghast at the federal government’s hostility to religion. The establishment clause of the First Amendment was simply intended to forbid the creation of an official state church like the Church of England, not to drive religion out of public life."

The Constitution makes NO mention of a god...the Declaration of Independence makes a reference to "the Laws of Nature and Nature's God," and the line about men being "endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights."

These are hardly two documents "replete with references to God", and yet Dr Paul has offered these two documents as supporting HIS version of history.
Mark M. Sep 28, 2009, 11:20pm EDT
Slim,
What do you mean by the term church in the hackneyed phrase separation of church and state?

-Mark
Kathy W. Sep 28, 2009, 11:51pm EDT
Mark. Seriously?
Mark M. Sep 29, 2009, 7:41am EDT
Wilka,

. . . as a heart attack. Let's start defining our terms and maybe we can talk seriously about the issues.

-Mark
Jerry Kays Sep 29, 2009, 4:27pm EDT
Those are all great links that you supplied above Slim ... must reads for anyone with enough Intelligence to appreciate ... leaving out (excluding, unfortunately)) those most in need of knowing.
Bert B. Sep 30, 2009, 11:19pm EDT
Ramona...either you are ignorant of Huckabee's statements about replacing the Constitution with Biblical law, or...worse yet, you AGREE with him.
I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are not aware of his intentions.
If you are...then you are one of my enemies. Sorry to say it, but people who want to replace the Constitution are not patriots. They are advocating the overthrow of our government. That is treason, and should be identified as such.
Jerry Kays Oct 1, 2009, 3:40am EDT
Yes.
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Ian Thorpe Sep 28, 2009, 10:42am EDT
You have an imaginary friend Bert? That makes me fel a lot better about having a crush on Charity, a character in a UK soap. In a typical soapland plot Charity is about to get married but her financee is having an affair with her 19 y.o. daughter (Charity had a baby at 13) Her preious men have been no better, one turned out to be a pimp, one killed himself having first left false evidence to frame her for his murder and one dumped her when the pimp came back on the scene and tried to blackmail her. How can anyone not love a girl who gets in so much trouble without even trying.

The storylines are no more ludicrous as two viral e-mails that break out every few months, on concerns Einstein the other Winston Chuchill, both repeat completely fictional anecdotes and claim these stories prove the existence of God.

Now if I told people I believed Charity was a real person and I intended to take her as my partner they would say I'm insane. And yet people are prepared to believe to most ludicrous fictions if a religious character is attached to them. And they get very irritated when some of us refuse to acknowledge these stories as truth. (Charity - picture and crazy storyline)
Jerry Kays Sep 28, 2009, 1:35pm EDT
:-) ... then to think of those ... :-(
Bert B. Sep 28, 2009, 2:03pm EDT
My friend Al is a rhetorical gimmick that I have been using for a couple years now, Ian. But I must admit, he is beginning to take on a life of his own.
Read "Diane" (link above) to get a little more insight into Al's character.
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Edward Shaw Sep 28, 2009, 10:55am EDT
I am wondering if these "last days" might turn out
to be the dawn of a new era, an age in which millions,
not dozens, are able to enter their thoughts into the
public record, courtesy of the interconnected, natch;
one in which the whisper, "But, Father, the emporer
is wearing no clothes," may be heard by not only a small
community, but by hundreds of millions.
Jerry Kays Sep 28, 2009, 1:37pm EDT
I am waiting for the last days "rapture" like when all of the "tourists" finally go back home.
Bert B. Sep 28, 2009, 1:57pm EDT
Ha! Good one, Jerry. When all those "temporary residents" leave for their cloud in the sky, strumming harps, Then, FINALLY, the rest of us, who consider this our permanent home, can get serious about protecting and preserving this wonderful planet and living in peace, now that the troublemakers are gone
Ian Thorpe Sep 29, 2009, 11:19am EDT
Bert,
The only thing I ever pray for is that when the rapture comes and all our clothes fall off before we ascend to heaven, I'm standing next to Charity.

Edward,
On a sensible note in response to your perceptive comment, you are right - the last days of Revelations can be interpreted as the last days of religious dominance.

Revelations was written with hindsight and refers to the last days of the Emperor Nero. Many have thought the number of the beast, 666, refers to Nero but in fact it refers to his great nephew Domitian (per classicist Robert Graves). Nero's real name was Lucius Domitus o Domtian is "of Domitus" and Nero was the persecutor of Christians and the inference is the new Nero arises from the wreckage of the old Regime. At the end of his reign is the millennium. Well the Roman Empire survived for about a thousand years, becoming Byzantium on the way so it is vaguely right.

The book was later reinterpreted to mean the downfall of pagan Rome almost 300 years later when Constantine the Great replaced the Sol Invicta cult with Christianity as the Empire's official religion. Since Julius Ceasar the Emperor had been Pontifex Maximus (High Priest and earthly embodiment of the god) of Sol Invicta so when Constantine created the Papacy by delcaring himself Ponitfex Maxiumus of the Christian faith the new world order had risen from the old.
So now it is not difficult to reinterpret Revelations again as the downfall of religion and the onset of a more secular era. Personally I interpret it as the ravings of a guy who had eaten too many wild mushrooms.
Edward Shaw Sep 29, 2009, 11:38am EDT
Very interesting brief, Ian. I never heard anything
like that. As you know, we have, in America, this
really pretty influential ministry that reads a
prophesy into Revelations. I have never been
able to make the remotest connection between
what I read in Revelations and the End of Time
Prophesy. Maybe it is, as you suggest, locked
up in the mushrooms.
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Kristi C. Sep 28, 2009, 1:38pm EDT
The most interesting thing about this is that people don't see the similarities between the differing belief systems and when it is pointed out to them they claim the other is "false teachings". Unfortunately people see the concept of "live and let live" as a threat to their beliefs rather than an admittance that not everyone believes the same.
Bert B. Sep 28, 2009, 1:56pm EDT
Right, Kristi. Religions, by their very nature, are intolerant of competing beliefs.
How could they claim to be the one favored by God if they admitted that other faiths were also valid?
Kristi C. Sep 28, 2009, 1:59pm EDT
So right you are Bert.
Jerry Kays Sep 28, 2009, 2:11pm EDT
Amen !
Mark M. Sep 28, 2009, 2:51pm EDT
Right, Kristi. Religions, by their very nature, are intolerant of competing beliefs.

What are you intolerant of, Bert?

-Mark
Bert B. Sep 28, 2009, 2:55pm EDT
I am intolerant of intolerance, Mark.
Mark M. Sep 28, 2009, 10:00pm EDT
The most interesting thing about this is that people don't see the similarities between the differing belief systems and when it is pointed out to them they claim the other is "false teachings".

A leopard and a dalmatian have a lot in common too but you'd only want one of them riding with you in the fire truck. . .

-Mark

Mark M. Sep 28, 2009, 10:01pm EDT
I am intolerant of intolerance, Mark.

Have you ruled out God too, Bert?

-Mark
Bert B. Sep 28, 2009, 10:43pm EDT
As I have said repeatedly, Mark, I am a nonbeliever. That means that I do not believe in a supernatural power that watches over me and rewards or punishes me for my behavior, nor do I believe that any "sacred" texts published by any organized religion originate from a supernatural power.
You have asked me this question repeatedly in this thread, and I keep answering it. This is my last response to the question. All further repetitions will be ignored.
Mark M. Sep 28, 2009, 10:56pm EDT
So I could infer from this little manifesto that you're intolerant of many things. . .

Isn't it rather hypocritical to come out as intolerant of intolerance when in fact you're intolerant of:

God
the supernatural
providence
salvation
eternal punishment
divine revelation
organized religion (whatever that is)

And I'm sure the list goes on from there. So you do have quite an axe to grind - all disbelievers do. . . Quite a bias.

-Mark
Kristi C. Sep 28, 2009, 11:34pm EDT
How is Bert being a non-believer being intolerant. It simply means he has come to a different conclusion than you have. I will never for the life of me understand how some people are threatened by others not believing as they do.
Mark M. Sep 28, 2009, 11:40pm EDT
How is Bert being a non-believer being intolerant.

Hi Kristi,
How would you describe intolerance?

-Mark
Kristi C. Sep 28, 2009, 11:46pm EDT
Personally attacking another for a mere difference of beliefs for one!
Kristi C. Sep 28, 2009, 11:50pm EDT
Frankly I don't see anywhere that Bert insulted you personally for what you believe. He has given his interpretations on how he sees religion as a WHOLE.
Kristi C. Sep 29, 2009, 12:21am EDT
You're one to talk!
Kristi C. Sep 29, 2009, 12:24am EDT
Keep it going,you're giving me more Gather points! ;D
Bert B. Sep 29, 2009, 2:31am EDT
Your last post is hardly worth answering, Mark. Because I do not believe in your list of faith-based concepts does not make me intolerant. If that were true, then anyone who disagrees with anyone is intolerant.
I simply do not find them believable. For some reason, this seems to upset you greatly. Maybe YOU are the intolerant one.
Bert B. Sep 29, 2009, 1:48pm EDT
You are right, of course, Miz. I suppose everybody is intolerant of something.
I am intolerant of recreational hunters. I can't help it. The idea of killing for fun just nauseates me. I grew up hunting as a kid...coulen't wait to get my first 22 rifle, and then a 20-gauge shotgun. Lusted after Ruger revolvers.
I used to belong to the NRA! Now, I am a born-again anti-hunting, anti-gun person. Born-agains are the absolute worst, aren't they? :)
Bert B. Sep 29, 2009, 9:15pm EDT
So tell me what you DO believe, Miz. Truth? That's a little fuzzy. Truth, like beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
Where do you stand on abortion? Whose rights to you choose to trample...the mother or the childl, and when is a blastocyst a child?
How about Biblical law replacing the Constitution?
Lets get down to cases here.
Bert B. Sep 30, 2009, 1:42pm EDT
You are a very interesting person, Miz. I am glad you came here to my thread.
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Kathy W. Sep 28, 2009, 2:27pm EDT
My favorite line from your (very excellent) write?
I k