This is the fifth in a series of fictional discussions with my imaginary friend Al.
To understand the background for this piece, I recommend that you read one or more of the previous ones.
God, Pluto and Limburger Cheese
We were starting our second beer, and I had been waiting for this moment. Al is a very smart guy, a trained scientist with advanced degrees in engineering. He is a kind and thoughtful person. He is also a devout Christian. I am a nonbeliever. We have had many spirited discussions about religion, but they have always remained civil. We have never let our differences of opinion on matters of faith threaten our friendship. I was planning to spring a little trap on him.
I mentioned a recent terrorist attack in Iraq that had killed a number of innocent civilians along with several American soldiers.
“How can any religion condone such actions?” I asked. “The whole idea of Islam is crazy, though. Mohammed appoints himself as Allah’s prophet and proceeds to write the Koran, supposedly with Allah dictating. But if you read it, with all its logical and grammatical errors, it was clearly written by a not-too-literate man named Mohammed. He claimed he was the only real prophet. All the rest were fakes. The man was either a charlatan or he was deluded. And then, he flew to Heaven on a horse. I haven’t seen too many flying horses except on gas station signs.”
Al laughed at that, and agreed that Islam was indeed pretty crazy.
And then I dropped the bomb.
“Okay, let me change a few words in what I just said. “Jesus must have been pretty delusional to think he could talk to God. And his claim that he is the only true prophet…ridiculous! But even that isn’t as bad as the whole idea that he was born by immaculate conception, and after he rose from the dead and was lifted up into heaven. That’s even crazier than flying horses!”
Al wasn’t smiling. “Those are historical facts. It’s all in the Bible.”
“And the Bible was written by whom?”
I answered my own question before Al could open his mouth.
“Written by men, but God dictated the words. Gee, that sounds familiar. And judging by the contradictions and inconsistencies, one would have to conclude that God had a lot of human failings. He would have failed a high school English class.”
Al laughed at that. “Yeah, he probably would have failed English class, since it wasn’t invented when the Bible was written.”
“But,” he continued, “If the Bible isn’t fact, then two billion people on the planet are wrong.”
“If the Koran isn’t fact then more than one billion Muslims are wrong,” I countered. “Do we decide who is right by a vote? And if so, we better hurry up and hold the election pretty soon, because the Muslims are gaining on the Christians every day.”
Al shook his head. “Most Muslims are ignorant Arabs who were indoctrinated with that stuff since they were born.”
“And how is that different from what most Christian families do? Are American kids any less brainwashed than Iranian kids? The fact is, most children are taught religious beliefs as soon as they are old enough to understand language, and most of them retain the religion of their parents for their entire life. That’s not surprising. Children are very receptive to anything their parents say, and once the belief system is in place, it’s hard to dislodge. Later in life when they are adults, they could examine those beliefs critically, but most of them don’t. Have you ever really, REALLY thought about it? Questioned it?”
“Of course I have!” Al exclaimed. “But deep down, in the center of my soul, I know that Jesus is my lord.”
I knew better than to question that statement. There is nothing you can say to a devout religious believer, no logic, no reason, to answer such a statement.
“Okay, I know that you believe that, but I just want you to think…to realize…that there are a lot of people on this planet who do not share your convictions…who think all Christians are wrong, and doomed to hellfire and damnation, just as you think they are. Maybe you are all wrong!”
We were both silent for a moment. Then I continued.
“I just read a book called ‘The God Virus’ by Darrel Ray. He makes the case that religious belief afflicts the brain of believers, suspending logic and reason in matters related to their faith-based beliefs, but leaving them fully intact in evaluating competing religious beliefs. I want you to think back to the beginning of this discussion, how you were able to see through the fantasies and deceptions of Islam, but when I presented very similar ideas associated with Christianity, you were completely unable to examine them critically. It’s as if a disease gains control of the minds of religious believers, and it spreads through their preachers and priests and imams. Right now, it seems to me that Islam is winning the battle. Their virus is stronger than the Christian virus, because it doesn’t care about separation of church and state. So the power of the government is enlisted in the coercion of people to become believers. Our secular society is at a disadvantage to that. I know that you have no use for the lunatic fringe fundamentalists who want to take over our government, discard the Constitution and replace it with Biblical laws, but that is probably a natural reaction of the Christian virus to the perceived threat from Islam.”
Al was looking at me in total perplexity. “What are you raving about? Islam will never replace Christianity. Those people are doomed. When Judgment Day comes, they will all burn.”
I decided maybe a third beer was needed, and I wanted to let things cool off a little.
We changed the subject to health care.
That was a really bad idea!


Comments: 356 ( 1 removed by Bert B. )
"Their virus is stronger than the Christian virus, because it doesn’t care about separation of church and state."
That says it all. Is that why the GOP has gone to bed with the evangelical religious right?
VOTES!
Ask this...has the government restored Christian, or any other Prayer to Schools? They have had a couple of decades to do it. Has Abortion been restricted in any meaning full way. It's been 36 years since Roe v Wade, and even longer since the first state repeal of abortion restrictions. The GOP is consistently breaking promises to the Fundamentalists, and to other people of faith as well.
The one thing the GOP has been able to do, though, is pack the Supreme Court with Catholic fundamentalists, and the threat to Roe v. Wade is real and immediate. And they have managed to water down health care reform so that it will be worthless. The Dems folded on abortion funding, hoping that would garner some support from the other side. NAH! All they did was reset the target to eliminate funding for contraceptives, even for married couples!
They don't want health care reform. They want the whole thing to be a disaster for the Democrats and Obama and to Hell with the millions of uninsured people.
http://www.democracynow.org/2009/9/4/republican_gomorrah_inside_the_movement_that
Hi Ruth,
Do you know what Jesus taught about the integrity of the Holy Scriptures?
-Mark
I'll bet you do and I'll bet you are never confronted with your sin and your need for a Savior on your jaunts through the scrub.
-Mark
Who would be doing the imposing, Bert? Would you make them to feel guilty for such an imposition? Is that the purpose of this little mini-series that you've penned?
I wonder; are there benefits to guilt feelings?
Disbelievers must also account for their sinfulness. Their conscience must surely remind them that, they too, will stand one day before the Judge. What are you doing with your sin, Bert?
-Mark
It's how a virus works, Mark...it is only interested in one thing...survival and continued growth. Read the book I referenced in the article. I dare you.
Who's your authority on this, Bert? Does he have an axe to grind just like you? How is he promoting his book and pimping his philosophy? Is he giving his book away for free?
Are you a member of an organized religion that you can speak so capably about the motives of its membership? The term organized religion leads one to believe that there must be corresponding unorganized religions. Are they viral in nature as well?
It's how a virus works, Mark...it is only interested in one thing...survival and continued growth.
I count two things here, Bert. But, even so, if you define a virus this way, the tree in my backyard would be a virus, all three of my kids would be viruses, and so would you. . .
-Mark
-Mark
If the Lord of Life, the Alpha and Omega, told us that it would be this way, why would we find it hard to believe?
Jesus answered: '...You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.
Matthew 24:4-5
Conflicts over religious beliefs are indeed symptoms of something larger which breeds suffering and death, but only symptoms. Maybe your time and ink would be more wisely spent addressing the real root cause of these human tragedies.
When G.K. Chesterton responded to a local newspaper's essay prompt - What's Wrong With the World? His essay consisted of only two words:
I am.
What's wrong with you, Bert?
-Mark
The question is not what is wrong with me. The question is, what is wrong with YOU and YOUR GOD that you cannot let people live in peace.
I reject any religion that announces that it is the ONLY RIGHT religion, and that all others are wrong, because that is the source of hatred and intolerance and war and oppression and human suffering. Any religion that advocates such things is EVIL.
Have you ever been to the beach head at Normandy? Do you know the story of that fateful day in 1944? Do you suppose God had a hand in what happened there?
That might be straying from our conversation though. I have discovered some more things that you are intolerant of:
God's sovereign right to do as He pleases
God's requirements for worship and access to His holy presence
Religion that insists on its doctrines
Religion that calls heresy wrong
-Mark
P.S. If God is a BAD GOD, are you the man who would be king? Good God Bert, Would you be our GOOD GOD?
You can attribute that to your god if you wish. I won't argue with you, because the question is inarguable...as are most questions concerning faith-based beliefs. If you recall, I said that in the article above.
Pardon me for interrupting. BUT THERE IS NO GOD TO DO THE DEEDS YOU ATTRIBUTE TO HIM/HER/IT/THEM/US/OTHERS. Simply put, there are now and there were then wars. Takes no genius to predict war, even when the whole human population of earth was 300 million.
Plato quotes Sonchis
“There have been and there will be many and divers destructions of mankind, of which the greatest are fire and water, and lesser ones by countless other means. For in truth the story that is told in your country as well as ours, how once upon a time Phaethon, son of Helios, yoked his father’s chariot, and, because he was unable to drive it along the course taken by his father, burnt up all that was upon the earth and himself perished by a thunderbolt-that story, as it is told, has a fashion of a legend, but the truth of its lies in the occurrence of a shifting of the bodies in the heavens which move around the earth, and a destruction of the things on the earth by fierce fire, which recurs at long intervals.”
Sonchis an Egyptian of Antiquity. SORT OF ODD, Plato died nearly 400 years before Christ was born. And about 600 years before The Book of Revelations was written down.
Hi Karl,
Who told you this?
Why would you believe such nonsense?
Have you disbelieved God as well?
-Mark
Hi Sam,
How do you account for such things?
-Mark
Ah, now there is a pretty good example of intolerance.
He has his opinion. You have yours.
Why is his nonsense and yours is not?
You should read the book I referenced above, John. But I know you won't.
You should stop spreading malicious gossip, fear, and hatred, but I pretty much know you won't. You've cooked up a crazy rationale, like all the fear mongering bigots do, wherein you're a great hero for generating animosity toward, and intolerance of, your target.
Many people are just too self-centered, it seems, to see through the old BS . . calling the target intolerant, then fomenting intolerance of them, is too subtle for hateful people to avoid. It's a double-talk that the violent of mind, cannot resist; "Those kinda people , are too judgmental ". . . "That group is dangerous, and ought to be dealt with" . . . "That person is spreading lies, and we cannot allow our free society to be ruined by such behavior".
Attackin' in the name of peace, Accusin' in the name of cooperation, Hatin' in the name of love . .
Bullshit, I say . . if it's classic, show me anyplace else it exists. And no, I don't mean anyplace some other bigot makes nasty accusations, but anyplace the sort of double-talk you're doing here, to excuse violence and malicious slander, is spoken of directly.
Obviously, it would not be possible to respond in any negative way to your crap, without you mouthing some more crap about the response being negative, and so some sort of terrible sin, cause Bert the magnificent, and his little sock puppet, are not to be questioned on this slight of tongue nonsense. That's just more of the same double-talk, to render any that do not cow to such hateful bigotry, wo5rthy of further defamation. BFD
Go read the book I referenced. You will find out that you are...INFECTED!
Please explain to me how you think it is "hijacked" and what you think should be done about it, and then maybe I can figure out your question.
"When all else fails, resort to personal attacks. You haven't changed, John."
Oh, I see, taking issue with your accusations that I am "infected" with some horrible mind destroying "virus", is a personal attack now. Not just sitting there, while you brow beat and defame billions of human beings for nor not sharing your particular views, is some sort of immorality, some sort of heinous breach in civil discourse now . . . How dare anyone not bow to the all-knowing Bert, whose judgment is the final word on who is dangerous, delusional, maladjusted, and whatever else happens to pop into Bert's majestic head ; )
Well, excuuuuse me, Mr. God.
Either you do not understand literature or you are being obtuse.
"We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing-all-powerful God who creates faulty Humans and then blames them for his own mistakes." Gene Roddenberry
"We must also question the people who buy into this faulty logic and insinuate that it is we who are confused." Sandy Knauer
I still don't understand your comment:
"But is there anything "viralant" that either of you can say IN YOUR OWN WORDS?"
C'mon, I am willing to respond, but I still don't understand what you are talking about, Miz.
I will say this: The article I wrote was written IN MY OWN WORDS. I talk about Dr. Lay's book on the viral qualities of religion, and how virulent they are, though. But I would not claim that my writings are "viralant," since I don't know what that means.
BTW, I'll also bet here that nobody "hates" Christians ... just have a strong dislike for some of the most vocal hypocritical, pious and overly righteous ones who don't know squat about the deeper meanings of their supposed religion (the ones who really do the hating here). Those things that Jesus and others actually attempted to teach them. Those who give such a "bad name" to the whole concept of religion. If the shoe fits ... ... ...
BTW, the "charges" of "sock-puppet" was initially brought up by John aimed at supporters of Bert (which just happened to be me ... and with my history of relationships with John, I did not miss that intention).
LOL, hey, I resemble that remark.
I have no problem with you talking with Jesus, by the way.
"They are all human beings, living their lives without breaking any laws...except Biblical ones, of course."
As non-Christians, are we all supposed to be bound by your rules? Now that WOULD be a theocracy, right?
The lack of respect that you and your Christian friends feel, is shared by we non-Christians, I assure you. John Knight and I have tangled many times before and he always resorts to personal insults and attacks. I have rarely responded in kind, but sometimes I can't help myself. As for Mark, he just keeps spouting the Bible and telling us how wrong we are not to accept Jesus.
Even though I realize that he thinks he is doing his Christian duty, it is tiresome to hear the same litany over and over. I don't think you can blame us for finally telling him to cut out the bullshit.
I have no particular problem with your posts, by the way. You are MUCH more entertaining than either of the aforementioned two.
Do you believe in God and what He has revealed to us in Holy Writ?
From your writings, it appears that you have ignored His. . .
-Mark
Sorry, I was under the impression that this was a work of fiction.
So you definitely have some preconceived notions about religion and deity, an axe to grind so to speak. . .
Have you disbelieved God, then?
-Mark
As for my "preconceived notions about religion and deity," well HEAVENS, YES!!
I would never deny that. Doesn't everybody have such preconceived notions?
Don't you? Of course you do.
Do I have "an axe to grind, so to speak?" In the opening paragraph, I stated that I was a nonbeliever. Whether that applies to me as a character in this little play, or as the writer is irrelevant. The views stated by the protagonist after that are clearly those of a nonbeliever.
What is it then that you have disbelieved?
-Mark
-Mark
-Mark
I believe in the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, and the Tooth Fairey.
I have seen the result of these fictional characters as a child: at Easter, Christmas, and when I lost early teeth.
This is the only truth I have witnessed.
And it was all performed by my parents--who loved us.
I have never been to the mountaintop or seen the tablets.
Has anyone actually SEEN the tablets?
I have never had a bush explode into miraculous flame and speak to me... However, I have a particular Bush I'd like to offer up to the flaming god.
Wilka
Now, once and for all, have I finally made this absolutely and completely clear?
What's become abundantly clear Bert is your refusal to answer my question. God has made Himself abundantly clear as well. He has spoken. He is there and He is not silent. . .
Have you disbelieved Him? yes or no
-Mark
Fair enough.
If the protagonist of the story won't give straight answers to simple questions then maybe the antagonist will. . .
What is it that Bert's buddy, Al, has believed?
-Mark
-Mark
Don't know never met the man and I never will seeing as he is imaginary. Really is it that important that Bert makes up a character in a series of posts to show the types of questions he expects believers to pose to him(or have posed to him in the past)? You're grasping at straws Mark. Are you jealous of the attention Al gets?
At least Al has a degree of rational thinking! Which is more than I can say for you after witnessing you chase your tail in guttural rhetoric
Who is the confused one here?
Word semantics are often the ploy used by some people(Mark M.) to invoke a response from someone(Bert B.) when a total lack of comprehension(from Mark's end) of the conversation is present.
Sarah Palin associated herself with various people who want to infiltrate our government for the purpose of religious control. HERE
Want to read a really good article about the effect of religious fanaticism? PLEASE READ THIS (Mark Morford..SF Chronicle)
In Morford's essay, a link is provided to a video interview between Rachel Maddow and Frank Schaeffer...a former fundamentalist who has now rejected the fundamentalist platform. THIS VIDEO IS A MUST SEE ! HERE
"Some of my opponents do not want to change the Constitution, but I believe it's a lot easier to change the Constitution than it would be to change the word of the living God, and that's what we need to do is to amend the Constitution so it's in God's standards rather than try to change God's standards."
Slim,
What do you mean by the term church above?
-Mark
I find the defensivness of "Christians" to be ironic. There is nothing in the Bible that justifies most of what passes as Christian practice in America today. Were Christians to be truly Biblical in the New Testament sense the faith might really be a social force as it was before Constantine the Great. As it is it has become merely a vehicle for despots to mold the gullible for political advantage.
Ron Paul from his "The War on Religion"...
"The notion of a rigid separation between church and state has no basis in either the text of the Constitution or the writings of our Founding Fathers. On the contrary, our Founders’ political views were strongly informed by their religious beliefs. Certainly the drafters of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, both replete with references to God, would be aghast at the federal government’s hostility to religion. The establishment clause of the First Amendment was simply intended to forbid the creation of an official state church like the Church of England, not to drive religion out of public life."
The Constitution makes NO mention of a god...the Declaration of Independence makes a reference to "the Laws of Nature and Nature's God," and the line about men being "endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights."
These are hardly two documents "replete with references to God", and yet Dr Paul has offered these two documents as supporting HIS version of history.
What do you mean by the term church in the hackneyed phrase separation of church and state?
-Mark
. . . as a heart attack. Let's start defining our terms and maybe we can talk seriously about the issues.
-Mark
I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are not aware of his intentions.
If you are...then you are one of my enemies. Sorry to say it, but people who want to replace the Constitution are not patriots. They are advocating the overthrow of our government. That is treason, and should be identified as such.
The storylines are no more ludicrous as two viral e-mails that break out every few months, on concerns Einstein the other Winston Chuchill, both repeat completely fictional anecdotes and claim these stories prove the existence of God.
Now if I told people I believed Charity was a real person and I intended to take her as my partner they would say I'm insane. And yet people are prepared to believe to most ludicrous fictions if a religious character is attached to them. And they get very irritated when some of us refuse to acknowledge these stories as truth. (Charity - picture and crazy storyline)
Read "Diane" (link above) to get a little more insight into Al's character.
to be the dawn of a new era, an age in which millions,
not dozens, are able to enter their thoughts into the
public record, courtesy of the interconnected, natch;
one in which the whisper, "But, Father, the emporer
is wearing no clothes," may be heard by not only a small
community, but by hundreds of millions.
The only thing I ever pray for is that when the rapture comes and all our clothes fall off before we ascend to heaven, I'm standing next to Charity.
Edward,
On a sensible note in response to your perceptive comment, you are right - the last days of Revelations can be interpreted as the last days of religious dominance.
Revelations was written with hindsight and refers to the last days of the Emperor Nero. Many have thought the number of the beast, 666, refers to Nero but in fact it refers to his great nephew Domitian (per classicist Robert Graves). Nero's real name was Lucius Domitus o Domtian is "of Domitus" and Nero was the persecutor of Christians and the inference is the new Nero arises from the wreckage of the old Regime. At the end of his reign is the millennium. Well the Roman Empire survived for about a thousand years, becoming Byzantium on the way so it is vaguely right.
The book was later reinterpreted to mean the downfall of pagan Rome almost 300 years later when Constantine the Great replaced the Sol Invicta cult with Christianity as the Empire's official religion. Since Julius Ceasar the Emperor had been Pontifex Maximus (High Priest and earthly embodiment of the god) of Sol Invicta so when Constantine created the Papacy by delcaring himself Ponitfex Maxiumus of the Christian faith the new world order had risen from the old.
So now it is not difficult to reinterpret Revelations again as the downfall of religion and the onset of a more secular era. Personally I interpret it as the ravings of a guy who had eaten too many wild mushrooms.
like that. As you know, we have, in America, this
really pretty influential ministry that reads a
prophesy into Revelations. I have never been
able to make the remotest connection between
what I read in Revelations and the End of Time
Prophesy. Maybe it is, as you suggest, locked
up in the mushrooms.
How could they claim to be the one favored by God if they admitted that other faiths were also valid?
What are you intolerant of, Bert?
-Mark
A leopard and a dalmatian have a lot in common too but you'd only want one of them riding with you in the fire truck. . .
-Mark
Have you ruled out God too, Bert?
-Mark
You have asked me this question repeatedly in this thread, and I keep answering it. This is my last response to the question. All further repetitions will be ignored.
Isn't it rather hypocritical to come out as intolerant of intolerance when in fact you're intolerant of:
God
the supernatural
providence
salvation
eternal punishment
divine revelation
organized religion (whatever that is)
And I'm sure the list goes on from there. So you do have quite an axe to grind - all disbelievers do. . . Quite a bias.
-Mark
Hi Kristi,
How would you describe intolerance?
-Mark
I simply do not find them believable. For some reason, this seems to upset you greatly. Maybe YOU are the intolerant one.
I am intolerant of recreational hunters. I can't help it. The idea of killing for fun just nauseates me. I grew up hunting as a kid...coulen't wait to get my first 22 rifle, and then a 20-gauge shotgun. Lusted after Ruger revolvers.
I used to belong to the NRA! Now, I am a born-again anti-hunting, anti-gun person. Born-agains are the absolute worst, aren't they? :)
Where do you stand on abortion? Whose rights to you choose to trample...the mother or the childl, and when is a blastocyst a child?
How about Biblical law replacing the Constitution?
Lets get down to cases here.
I k