James Pouillon was an anti-abortion protester in Owosso, Michigan who stood outside a school holding pictures of an aborted fetus. He was described as an "in-your-face protester" by the local media.
Harlan Drake, a loner who sometimes worked as a trucker and had been sleeping in the cab of his truck, developed a grudge against several people in the town.
Drake objected to Pouillon because the latter waved the bloody picture of a dead fetus at school children.
Drake's views on abortion were, and are, unknown.
On Friday morning, Drake stopped his truck bside the school and shot Pouillon. Drake then drove to a local gravel pit and shot the owner.
Drake's views on gravel or quarrying were, and are, unknown.
Police have stated that Drake intended to kill another man due to a "grudge".
Here is a wire story pulled at random from the internet:
Prosecutors: Gunman with grudge kills 2 in Mich.
Today, the fanatics of the anti-abortion movement, with more passion than reason or intelligence, are screaming (without any evidence) that Pouillon was killed because of his views on abortion, and that his death is being "ignored by the media".
(Note: "Ignored by the media", in the strange language of fundamentalists and the ill-educated, means, "other people are not twisting the facts of this case to create an untrue cause for hysteria." )
The story has been carried by the media, it has crossed the changing headline bullets on the internet pages.
The story has been noted in proportion to what the facts of the case suggest: a lone gunman that no one knows well went on a spree to rid the community of all the people who had offended him in some way.
What riles the single-issue nutcases is that reasonable people will not identify this as an outrage "equivalent" to the murder of Dr. George Tiller.
Tiller, who had been the subject of daily death threats and intimidations, had a target painted on his photo by "pro-life" zealots, had been publicly excortiated by know-nothing rabble-rousers like Bill O'Reilly, had been publically "marked for death" by anti-abortion haters for years.
Of course the cases are not compared.
Dr. Tiller was murdered after a long campaign (conducted in the public square) of demonization and incitement to violence. Before he was murdered, the prospect of his dealth was condoned by organizations and individuals who piously declare that they value life more than others.
Pouillon was murdered because some loner with a gun didn't want kids to be accosted by a belligerant fat man waving pictures of bloody fetuses.
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Comments: 182
Strange things happen in Sianwassee County, Michigan.
I regret that I took it literally.
When Dr Tiller was murdered he was hailed as a god to the anti choice group. After all they do value life beyond anything..insert sarcasm.
I have not seen one prochoice person or group support this mans behavior.
My impressions are the same, Ada.
according to doctrine...Mary was asked and had the free will to say no!
1 Samuel 15:3 God commands the death of helpless "suckling" infants. This literally means that the children god killed were still nursing.
Psalms 135:8 & 136:10 Here god is praised for slaughtering little babies.
Psalms 137:9 Here god commands that infants should be “dashed upon the rocks”.
I, too, believe that God favors freedom.
The weak willed and cowardly will use ANYTHING to promote an agenda. It strikes me as cosmicly ironic that a group touting the endorsement of God Almighty feels the unrestrained liberty to lie with complete, unflinching abandon to further their "godly" ends. And they wonder why evangelicalism is losing their youth by the millions.
However, I am alarmed by the influence that they are having on our country.
Did the kids think he was selling raspberries? That's what an aborted fetus looks like - a raspberry, a little bigger than the top of a pencil eraser.
(I don't know if surgically aborted products of conception look like a raspberry, Sandy, but the miscarried ones ain't that pretty... I have to say "product of conception" because most of it is the placenta, and you have to look really hard if you want to figure out which piece was going to be the baby.)
Exactly. Product of conception is the correct medical term, Aniko.
The fact that Mr. Pouillon was killed while engaging in his preferred form of protest doesn't mean he was killed because of his anti-abortion views. That in no way makes his murder any less significant than any of the other dozens of murders that occurred throughout the U.S. on the same day as the murders of Mr. Pouillon and Mr. Fuoss, but it doesn't make Mr. Pouillon a "pro-life martyr", either.
Martyr-dom requires two things: 1) a willing self-sacrifice and 2) an audience to spread the tale and create controversy over the death. This incident does not qualify as Pouillon wasn't given the opportunity to choose whether his beliefs mattered enough for him to die for them....and while the anti-choice crowd is diligently trying to spread the news and arouse some controversy, the pro-choice crowd is simply refusing to get sucked into behaving the way the anti-choice crowd did over Tiller's murder and murderer.
I always wondered what was the point behind the requiring of sacrifices in the Old Testament? Beyond the obvious 'demonstration of obedience'?
I finally decided that it was one of God's ways of teaching us---by way of demonstration---just how tenuous and fragile life really is. The anti-choice people seem to care more for potential life than lives that are already being lived.
To me, the New Testament ('red letter' version--the words of Jesus) directs us to focus on dealing with 'what is', rather than merely judging by the standard of 'what should be'. One is the role of an active and compassionate participant; the other, that of a passive and critical observer.
When someone broke into an Amish school and shot several girls (and only girls), no one went around with "Amish are the persecuted" signs. They knew he was insane and irrational.
When Michael McLanden went on his shooting spree, killing ten people (including several relatives), including a 19 month old child, no one said the world was persecuting families. They knew he was crazy and irrational.
Killing someone with grudges for little cause (and yes, I agree this counts) is the sign of a warped mind. Deliberately assassinating one person because you feel he is evil is something entirely different.
Twisting things to suit your sense of persecution does NOTHING to further one's cause.
I so love logic. I miss reading your comments, Steph. Seems many lack the gift of logic on Gather...and elsewhere.
Wil B.. you state that feelings of persecution are an intergral part of "these" people's alleged fundamentalist views, then pls explain to us your understanding of why there are also so many accusations of injustice and persecution from those who hold non fundamentalist's world views?? They seem pretty vocal to me... A few examples would be those poor persecuted gay righters and their trampled agendas and let's not neglect to mention those who are screaming for ever increasing and ever widening rights to brutally murder innocent babies in any stage of pregnancy while across town they are screaming injustice over a condemed killer's execution and an animal's rights?
What have we here? Libtards or a kool-aid drinkers? Most libtards are pantheists (New Agers), agnostics, atheists, liberal Jews, liberal Catholics, ect....Those who believe anything they are told. and who refuse to change their minds when confronted with facts. Now koolaid drinkers are the liberals who are liberal because they are told they should be. they have made no attempt to decide why they are liberal.
The koolaid "drinkers" simply wants to hate anything a conservative says or does, whether that be good or bad, heck, they don't know the difference...
Those libs are the vocal howard dean wing of the democrat party. the converse of the rightwing loonies.
The very same folks that went first when jim jones said drink.
How many from your camp cried persecution and injustice when faced with the civil war?
Leo, be alarmed, be very alarmed.. lol...
Lori, (I have not seen one prochoice person or group support this mans behavior.) Have you noted any of them condeming it??? Not.......
Sandy, what pics have you been looking at, dear?? I suspect, those from many years ago?
Sam,(The weak willed and cowardly will use ANYTHING to promote an agenda.) So I've noticed from you, time and time again, friend... lol..
Louis, I would advise you to re-read your Bible, friend? lol... You appear to be sniffing something quite nasty for your well being....
I'd suggest that it might be because there actually is injustice and persecution in the world. Including all the injustice and persecution perpetrated by various fundamentalists.
"They seem pretty vocal to me... A few examples would be those poor persecuted gay righters and their trampled agendas and let's not neglect to mention those who are screaming for ever increasing and ever widening rights to brutally murder innocent babies in any stage of pregnancy while across town they are screaming injustice over a condemed killer's execution and an animal's rights?"
Homosexuals are an example of a group who are often discriminated against and persecuted. As for the second group you mention, I think I'll hold my comments until after you've provided evidence that they actually exist.
And then you lose it by going into a really stupid rant.
Are you aware that a majority of people identifying as Christian voted for Obama?
Do you know that young evangelicals regard the "captivity" of faith to conservative ideologues (who have no regard for anything but political power) as a major mistake of the lst generation?
Anti-abortion fanatics are not reasonable in rejecting ways to reduce abortion.
Promoting academic education, cultivating opportunity for poor youth, sex education, contraception - these have been proven to work.
Banning abortion and demonizing sex have been proven to fail.
Soooooooooo, let's go over this once again for "clarity" purposes, as you appear to have some short term memory issues.... Sandy A.......... Yes, you do know of me, however you are currently lost and blinded and don't actually know me....... Much the same as you know OF God but do not actually know Him either. However, one day in the future, you will know it all, dear..... I pray you get right with Him before that day arrives........ So, in the meantime, don't feel you have to hold back your "best" shots by any confusion as to whom you are speaking too? lol.. You asked "again" and I answered you... Do try to remember this time?? lol...
Further, since you claim it is I who don't understand what abortion is.... Pls clarify that for me and others who will be reading your personal definition of abortion and may be interested in knowing??
This is a rational error, a poor tactic to make a point, and an insupportable theological reach as well.
The fact and the reality remains though, that "meeting God" will indeed be a distressing, regretable, lamentable and horrific experience for many folks IF they have not believed and accepted Christ as their personal Savior..... That day of reckoning, which ALL of us will face one day, and one's then, eternal destination that follows (note, eternity is a very long time, friend) rests with your own and other's personal and individual choice to either accept or reject God's Word and His perfect plan of personal salvation through His Son, Jesus Christ.....
15 But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD."
You will remember that Jesus warned the self-righteous, also; many who cry "Lord, Lord" never really knew Him - and will be be turned away because they failed to do the works of mercy required of them.
Heaven is a holy place, friend. It is not your's or my right. It is a gift and only for folks who have come to a faith in Jesus Christ and have made Him Lord of their lives. Hell is a terrifying place of eternal torture.. You can still choose your destination, but that choice will not always be available to you...
As Jesus said, so it is “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me” (Jn. 14:6).
“For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Rom. 8:38-39).
You worship a torturer. How sweet.
Dear. *snicker*
Jesus died for human beings, not for demons. Demons are lost and can never be saved. They know that. They know that they will suffer forever. On one occasion they said to Jesus, "What have we to do with you, Jesus, You Son of God? Have you come here to torment us before the time?" (Matt 8:29)
Even fallen angels know the oneness of God and tremble at its implications. Demons are essentially orthodox in their doctrine (read. Matt. 8:29,30; Mark 5:7; Luke 4:41; Acts 19:15). They, also, know the truth about God, Christ, and the Spirit, but hate it and them. To "know" by itself is not being saved.
* Extra dots mean I'm extra thoughtful!
ho-hum
The man deserved death for showing pictures like that to kids.
I don't care. He shouldn't have been at the school.
When the abortion doctor was killed, I don't know of any pro-life people who responded that way. We value life, all life, even the lives of killers.
There are people on both sides who react to the deaths of people whose ideas or actions they disapprove of with a "Serves him right!". Any statement that one group never says things like that is guaranteed to be incorrect, given the large number of people involved.
What can be stated is that as of this time stamp, nobody on this thread has said that Mr. Pouillon deserved to die.
(Genesis 1:26-31; 2:4-25) tell us "God created man in his image; in the divine image he created him; male and female he created them" (Genesis 1:27). Jer 2:34 Also in thy skirts is found the blood of the souls of the poor innocents: I have not found it by secret search, but upon all these. PEOPLE ARE THE CHILDREN OF GOD, EVEN BEFORE BIRTH.................
God tells us that the harmlessness and humility of the littlest child is an example of what God loves in humanity.......There is no doubt that the smallest unborn and born child is VERY precious in His sight.........
"And Jesus called a little child unto Him, and set him in the midst of them, And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoso shall receive one such little child in My name receiveth Me. But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in Me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea."—Matthew 18:2-5. (Mark 10:5.)
"My substance was not hidden from Thee, when I was made in secret, and intricately wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unformed; and in Thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them. "—Psalm 139: 15-16.
Not only did God make us, but He values each and every one of us. The Bible tells us of a God who is madly in love with us, so much so that He became one of us and even died for us while we were still offending Him (see Romans 5:6-8). Why then can some say that human beings are disposable, like a car that becomes more trouble than it is worth? If one believes the Bible, then they would have to believe that human life is sacred, more sacred than we have ever imagined!
The Bible teaches that children are a blessing. "Be fertile and multiply" (Genesis 1:28).
The Bible teaches that the child in the womb is a human child, who has a relationship with the Lord.
"In sin my mother conceived me," the repentant psalmist says in Psalm 51:7. The same word is used for the child before and after birth (Brephos, that is, "infant," is used in Luke 1:41 and Luke 18:15.)
God knows the preborn child. "You knit me in my mother’s womb . . . nor was my frame unknown to you when I was made in secret" (Psalm 139:13,15). God also helps and calls the preborn child. "You have been my guide since I was first formed . . . from my mother’s womb you are my God" (Psalm 22:10-11). "God… from my mother’s womb had set me apart and called me through his grace" (St. Paul to the Galatians 1:15).
Scripture repeatedly condemns the killing of the innocent. God’s own finger writes in stone the commandment "Thou shalt not kill" (Exodus 20:13, Deuteronomy 5:17) and Christ reaffirms it (Matthew 19:18 - notice that He mentions this commandment first). The Book of Revelation affirms that (unrepentant) murderers cannot enter the kingdom of heaven (Revelation 22:15).
The killing of children is especially condemned by God through the prophets. In the land God gave his people to occupy, foreign nations had the custom of sacrificing some of their children in fire. God told His people that they were not to share in this sin. They did, however, as Psalm 106 relates: "They mingled with the nations and learned their works…They sacrificed their sons and their daughters to demons, and they shed innocent blood, the blood of their sons and their daughters, whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan, desecrating the land with bloodshed" (Psalm 106:35, 37-38).
This sin of child-sacrifice, which INCLUDES abortion, in fact, is mentioned as one of the major reasons that the Kingdom of Israel was destroyed by the Assyrians and the people taken into exile. "They mutilated their sons and daughters by fire…till the Lord, in his great anger against Israel, put them away out of his sight" (2 Kings 17:17-18).
Note that this practice was a religious ritual. Not even for "religious freedom" can the killing of a child be tolerated.
The act of justice is an act of intervention for the helpless, an act of defense for those who are too weak to defend themselves. In foretelling the Messiah, Psalm 72 says, "Justice shall flower in his days…for he shall rescue the poor man when he cries out and the afflicted when he has no one to help him" (Psalms 72:7,12). Jesus Christ is our justice (1 Corinthians 1:30) because He rescued us from sin and death when we had none to help us (see Romans 5:6, Ephesians 2:4-5).
If God does justice for His people, He expects His people to do justice for one another. "Be merciful as your heavenly Father is merciful" (Luke 6:36). "Go and do likewise" (Luke 10:37). "Do unto others as you would have them do to you" (Matthew 7:12). "Love one another" (John 15:17).
Abortion is the OPPOSITE of God's teachings. It is a REVERSAL of justice. It is destruction of the helpless rather than a rescue of them!
Christ broke down the false barriers that foolish people set up among themselves, and instead acknowledged the EQUAL human dignity of every individual, ( READ even our own constitution?) despite what common opinion might say. Thus, we see Him reach out to children despite the efforts of the apostles to keep them away (Matthew 19:13-15); to tax collectors and sinners despite the objections of the Scribes (Mark 2:16); to the blind despite the warnings of the crowd (Matthew 20:29-34); to a foreign woman despite the utter surprise of the disciples and of the woman herself (John 4:9, 27); to Gentiles despite the anger of the Jews (Matthew 21:41-46); and to the lepers, despite their isolation from the rest of society (Luke 17:11-19).
The unborn are the segment of our society which is MOST neglected and discriminated against. Christ Himself has a special love for them so Christians, I warn you NOT to use God's Word to justify ANY abortion!
The final outcome of this battle for life has already been decided by the Resurrection of Christ. We are not just working for victory, we are working FROM victory. We joyfully take a victory that has already been won, and proclaim, celebrate, and serve it until He comes again to bring it to its fullness. "There shall be no more death" (Revelation 21:4). "Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!" (Revelation 22:20).
I've got a feeling Dr. Tiller was just one entry on a very long list.
OK.
"My opinion did not nor does not include that he or anyone else deserved or deserves to die at anyone's hand....... That's for God to decide, as the life and death of anyone is HIS choice... Not your's or mine."
Given that little mini-rant about Dr. Tiller being a murderer, clearly this is not a true statement.
"If that indeed was the case and only God knows for sure, I suspect you should take your ridiculous rant up with Him, if you feel inclined to do so?"
Sounds to me like you're the one who needs to take up your ridiculous rant with your god, since you believe he's the one who chooses who lives and who dies. As for me, I'm still waiting to settle a beef with the Tooth Fairy, so your god will have to get in line.
This isn't a dialogue, it's two children having a temper tantrum in order to attract attention. I believe it's time you two took a nap.
You are correct in that none answer to you. You are the one who will be surprised by God's judgement as you fail to demonstrate any sense of compassion for those who disagree with you. "Nanny nanny boo boo" never won any converts.
Remove the log from your own eye. Do not judge because by YOUR standard of measure YOU shall be judged. Think about it. You people are very free with the Bible as it suits your political agenda and godless interference with a temporal world. YOU and those like you are why we have a seperation of church and state.
Or words to that effect....with apologies for mangling the quotation from John Donne, one of the greatest preachers of his time.
Do you not believe the theology you so vehemently espouse? That you have to make an "if" statement to provide a condition for future behavior? What does this future conditional behavior have to do with the way you have been treating your fellow men NOW? You have not been kind, compassionate or respectful of others' dignity in your comments here and elsewhere.
I am puzzled as to how you are going to determine the truth of the matter while still alive? Your future kind behavior (while still living) is going to be determined by proof of something that either you don't believe in enough NOW, to display such kindness NOW? Since you won't know one way or another the truth of your beliefs until after you're dead--by your own admission?
This is life. We don't get a do-over at the end.
James 1:5 (KJV)
If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
I believe I will let God be God...and let Him be concerned with His plan. He's God, after all.
I will be concerned with loving my neighbor==or did you not understand Jesus' statement that it is the greatest commandment? To love thy neighbor as thyself?
If that isn't a clear direction to focus on the individual in front of you, I don't know what is.
Makes your attacks on "libtards" and "koolaid drinkers" look pretty silly, doesn't it?
I agree that it was uncalled for, and it's a real shame you don't put more of an effort into doing something about that habit of typing all those dots. As for your attacks, I was referring to how ridiculous and hypocritical it is for a fundamentalist to ridicule others for being "koolaid drinkers."
With lots of dots......................don't forget the dots.........................lol.......................
In other words, yet another plagiarizer has found a home on Gather.
Nope. Just your 'distorting any Biblical message posted' to justify your attitude of judgement.
'That's definantly not a positive or an edifying example for any of us to give in to and endulge ourselves in.' Too bad you're not going to benefit from a little soul-searching on this topic. Another soul lost. How sad.
Now, back to the subject, If God saying it in His word, doesn't settle it for you then that's your own choice to make........ Fair enough for ya??
Btw, I would be most curious to hear your personal opinion of just how you think I may have distorted the Biblical message? I assume you are refering to the abortion issue??
I think Tim McVeigh, the Unabomber, the white supremacy guy who murdered the guard at the Holocaust Museum, and the fool who murdered Dr. Tillar were carrying out political acts. Seung Hui Cho, Jeffrey Dahmer, and the crazies who shoot up exercise gyms, schools, and suburban malls with 20 shot handguns, AKs, or whatever, those guys are not doing politics, that's just dumb. This guy in Michigan, that was not politics either.
This article was a response to a really stupid rant about the lack of media attention to the murder of Pouillon.
Pouillon, of course, he was not murdered because of his beliefs - nor stalked, harassed,and threatened for decades by intolerant fanatics.
It confuses people. If you see a bunch of people standing around shouting at each other how do you distinguish who is who?
Plus we dont want to be put on the same level as the zealot wing nuts that perpatrate these acts.
BTW I have seen aborted fetus' and they do NOT look like babies.
Someone above mentioned the 'persecution complex' that zealots seem to have. I find it absolutely laughable. We have legalized abortion in this country, but under very strict rules. And some states make them even stricter and almost impossible for a woman to actually obtain a legal abortion, simply because of their religious beliefs, which should not in any way hold sway over our governmental laws. For some reason, 'pro-life' zealots take these strict laws and turn them into an all-out killing frenzy, exaggerating numbers, lying about actual late-term abortion criteria, flashing graphic pictures in front of children that aren't even accurate. And THEY are the prosecuted?
I say, WE are the prosecuted. The ones that have to put up with these atrocities in public areas - have them paraded in front of children. I believe it is the average citizen, following the law, who is prosecuted by religious zealots.
I say, if you cannot abide the laws of this country, agreed to by the majority of people, go off and find your own country and create your own theocracy, based on your own belief system. Just like the Islamist states. Then you can deprive people of their rights, trample down a woman's right over her own body, kill homosexuals, or at least ban them from your country. Geez, turn into an Islamist state of your own! Just leave us regular, law-abiding people alone to run our own democratic, non-religious country.
http://www.jillstanek.com/archives/2009/07/taliban_commits.html
Again, come into the 20th century if not the 21st. There is NO analogy between a woman's right over her own body according to the law and your useless comparatives.
You are the one stuck in the middle ages. Science had proven in the 19th century that life begins at conception and the world accepted this and abortion was outlawed worldwide. It was only greed and self interest that changed this. The science never changed!
A proud pro-choice - S.