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by Vivian A.
Member since:
July 18, 2007

Uber Characters ~ Creating the Perfect ___ WOMBATS CCCIX

September 08, 2009 03:21 PM EDT
views: 426 | rating: 10/10 (3 votes) | comments: 312

Beast.

Well beast is better than boring. What is your sure fire trick for giving a character zing? What makes your character worth reading about rather than passing by at the bus stop? How do you get from Plain Jane and Man-on-the-Street to radical villain, charming heroine, supporting cast extraordinaire, or downright must have hero?

Do you overdose a trait? Physical, emotional, or intellectual? Create the Uber persona.

Do you cripple? Let's face it hobbling emotionally or psychologically is a favorite standby for many authors, physical too. Quasimodo is obvious, but there are many scars, some we see and some we don't.

When writing which comes first? The characterization or story. Do you create your story to fit your characters or vice versa? Is your "genre" affecting your starting point?

Well too many questions as usual. Percolate and answer what strikes a chord with you.

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Comments: 312

Pat S. Sep 8, 2009, 3:23pm EDT
first!
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Pat S. Sep 8, 2009, 3:26pm EDT
I love creating my beasts far more than my heroes and heroines. And I love creating them as damaged creatures. The only undamaged heroine I created, I rather loathed, so I'm going back over that MS and giving her some flaws. I'm thinking of making her plain, or giving her an overbite or something. But yeah, I like 'em emotionally crippled. I'm sick that way.
Wendy C. Sep 8, 2009, 3:52pm EDT
Pat, Jessa is naive to a fault. Idealistic to a fault.. the poor thing needs her endearing qualities or your beasts wouldn't need her so much. Nuf said.
Pat S. Sep 8, 2009, 4:03pm EDT
Wendy, you are a dear. But I still think I'm giving her an overbite. Or glasses. Actually, that could explain why she doesn't really see the villain as the villain. Hmmmm.....gears grinding and clanking here...I may have to put you in the acknowledgements!
Wendy C. Sep 8, 2009, 8:00pm EDT
Spectacles could work in so many delightfully evil ways.
Pat S. Sep 8, 2009, 8:08pm EDT
I like the way you think!
Vivian A. Sep 8, 2009, 8:11pm EDT
I know I'm missing so much here. Oh well.
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Pat S. Sep 8, 2009, 3:27pm EDT
And yeah, I tend to overdose on everything in my writing. I love characters who let it all out and chew the scenery. And in both my WIPs, I have characters with physical scars. I think scars are fascinating, and there are always great stories around them--some funny and foolish, some traumatic, some horrifying.
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Vivian A. Sep 8, 2009, 3:31pm EDT
Why am I not surprised Pat?

I tend towards the people pretending to have it all together and then watching it fall apart. Hiding in plain sight and all that.
Sheila Deeth Sep 9, 2009, 11:54pm EDT
I tend towards people who know they've not got it together, then watching them win.
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Wanda H. Sep 8, 2009, 3:40pm EDT
What?? I'm fourth??? W00t
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Wanda H. Sep 8, 2009, 3:41pm EDT
Oh fifth still isn't bad. Off to read the article now. heh
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Wanda H. Sep 8, 2009, 3:42pm EDT
I'm going to percolate a bit and answer. Great questions.
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Vivian A. Sep 8, 2009, 3:48pm EDT
I think, technically, second Wanda.
Wanda H. Sep 8, 2009, 9:13pm EDT
I don't think I've ever been second, this is a big day for me!
Vivian A. Sep 8, 2009, 10:31pm EDT
Yay!
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Wendy C. Sep 8, 2009, 4:00pm EDT
Yes, Wanda, you were second.

My characters come first. The bossy bunch tell me their stories. Some have physical scars. They all have baggage. Does anyone you know, not have baggage? How they deal with it makes them worth reading about. And they all have a sense of humor. The beasts, not so much. Ego-mania is fun to play with in all it's assorted absurd manifestations.

I've got two strong willed characters and a deluded ego manic to deal with.
Off with me.
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Pat Bertram Sep 8, 2009, 4:10pm EDT
I can't do story without character and I can't do character without story, though usually a story idea is first, then the character comes along to fill out the story.
libramoon C. Sep 8, 2009, 4:29pm EDT
Yes, the story needs someone to happen to; the character needs something to do. They really get born and grow together, virtual siamese twins.
Sheila Deeth Sep 9, 2009, 11:54pm EDT
The characters talk to me when I'm out walking. If they keep talking it eventually turns into a story.
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Jamie C. Sep 8, 2009, 4:11pm EDT
Usually I don't work too hard on coming up with characteristics for my characters. They show up in my head fully formed and start going about their business. I have no idea how or why. My subconscious is a seriously bizarre place filled with people far more interesting than I.
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Pat Bertram Sep 8, 2009, 4:14pm EDT
As for the book I mentioned I was reading -- apparently that particular function isn't as obvious to perform in the wild as it might seem. How do you keep the resulting product from rolling down hill, or ending up in your hood, or you ending up with poison oak in sensitive areas, or getting the trots at inopportune times? And what if you don't have the muscle tone to squat or get up from a squat without falling flat on your fanny in the . . . Well, you get the picture.
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Pat Bertram Sep 8, 2009, 4:15pm EDT
Jamie, I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you. What a coup!
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~Sia McKye~ Sep 8, 2009, 4:25pm EDT
Just a quick hi and bookmark. Must run to the bank.

Ciao.
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Lisa "Queen Wombat" F. Sep 8, 2009, 5:21pm EDT
Wow, much to catch up on! First off, Jamie, many many congratulations! And yes, you need to be querying agents. absolutely. Just figure out what project you want to query. That's probably the toughest challenge for you since you've got so many of them!

Pat S., your roundup of Wombat Write-a-thon was a classic! For the record, I think it should count in your word totals.

Ummm...oh, the post topic. Cripple 'em, I say!

I also like trying to create villains that have some nuance.
Vivian A. Sep 8, 2009, 6:54pm EDT
Queen's decree, more the Queen of Hearts than Marie Antoinette. Alas this is why we love her.
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Lisa "Queen Wombat" F. Sep 8, 2009, 5:22pm EDT
Oh, and for those interested in Chinese politics - I tried to link to a post I wrote in the former thread, but the link didn't work. I don't know why because when I moused over it, it looked fine. Maybe a Gather thing, or I wasn't sufficiently caffeinated to see the problem. But it's the top post on my blog: http://papertigertail.blogspot.com
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Wanda H. Sep 8, 2009, 5:46pm EDT
Lisa's Blog (if I'm lucky!)
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Wanda H. Sep 8, 2009, 5:46pm EDT
I'm practicing my html. ;o)
Jamie C. Sep 8, 2009, 5:55pm EDT
That's what they all say.
Wanda H. Sep 8, 2009, 9:14pm EDT
heh! ;o)
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Jamie C. Sep 8, 2009, 5:57pm EDT
I've got to go back to work and I'm not done rereading Brian's Muse yet. Gah! I haven't found any glaring inconsistancy though I did have "amusing" when it was supposed to say "assuming" in one place.

I really, really, really, REALLY don't want to go teach night class tonight. Need to get this ms off to the editor. Gah!

I only have time to query one thing at a time, Lisa. I can't keep track of it all. LOL!
Wanda H. Sep 8, 2009, 9:17pm EDT
Stoopid night classes, they suck.... except for those students not able to come to day classes. Then they're a godsend. I was one of those. Couldn't make my schedule fit all day classes so I got to go to night classes twice a week. Great fun in business communications. I loved that class.
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Jill Lynn A. Sep 8, 2009, 6:05pm EDT
Vivian, I try to give my characters heart, first and foremost. And, then, I shoot 'em. HA!
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Jill Lynn A. Sep 8, 2009, 6:24pm EDT
The moment you’ve been waiting for (Okay, maybe the moment I'VE been waiting for) but How to order the anthology with my short story

Um, yeah, I'm just practicing my html skills, like Wanda.
Vivian A. Sep 8, 2009, 6:46pm EDT
Awesome Jill! I'm adding the link to the deleted entry for Terrifying Tales. Yay!
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Ken C. Sep 8, 2009, 6:50pm EDT
When asked about his eight-day marriage to Michelle Phillips...

"The first seven were pretty good."
- Dennis Hopper
Vivian A. Sep 8, 2009, 6:55pm EDT
Sounds almost biblical.
Wanda H. Sep 8, 2009, 9:30pm EDT
I'd like to hear her comments on their 8 day marriage. Bet it would be a doozey.
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Pat S. Sep 8, 2009, 6:53pm EDT
YAY for Jill! I ordered my copy. Horror is not my genre (hey, no laughing you guys and lady guys!), but I love having works by Wombats!

Lisa, great blog article--I only wish I were articulate enough to comment.

Ken, you find the oddest, most interesting quotes.
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Beth H. Sep 8, 2009, 6:57pm EDT
I'm with Pat B. and Libramoon in that story and character are inseparable for me. They are just there together when the idea comes.
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Vivian A. Sep 8, 2009, 7:00pm EDT
Beth, it is interesting to see where people start.

I have to admit that it depends, but mostly I see the tale and the character is woven around it. Might be a good exercise for me to expand my character by approaching from the other angle.
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Jill Lynn A. Sep 8, 2009, 7:03pm EDT
Thanks, Viv and Pat!
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Lisa "Queen Wombat" F. Sep 8, 2009, 7:09pm EDT
I'm hoping I can get some China commenters on that post because I really would like to get some informed opinions - I don't know how the players line up well enough to really comment on a lot of it myself. But it's potentially huge.
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Vivian A. Sep 8, 2009, 7:27pm EDT
Lisa I lack sufficient knowledge to partake in a serious discourse. I will love to follow, all I can refer to is historical precedent.
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Ken C. Sep 8, 2009, 7:44pm EDT
Dan Brown is unspeakably awful. No-one would accuse Rowling of being a master of prose style (though she got better as the series went on, in this respect) but her writing does at least not get in the way of the story. Brown writes like a thirteen year old using a foreign language. It is impossibly, impenetrably, unreadably dire. I don't think Rowling "deserves" to be the best selling author in British history, but I think I understand why she is. I truly cannot say the same for Brown.
- Tom Richards
The Key to Dan Brown's Success
Vivian A. Sep 8, 2009, 7:45pm EDT
Ken you crack me up.
Vivian A. Sep 8, 2009, 7:48pm EDT
Good Lord! Did she pass Dickens and Shakespeare? I need to get out into the real world more often.

Did see Half Blood Prince with my daughter, we both left with --huh? Seriously, thats 2 hours of our lives and $20 we're not getting back. It failed to address the book and the story woven in the movie was not interesting if you hadn't read the book.
Vivian A. Sep 8, 2009, 7:49pm EDT
Footnote: The nachos were far more satisfying than I expected.
Pat S. Sep 8, 2009, 7:53pm EDT
Ken, in the interest of saving you money, I noticed Fictionwise has the latest DB available for only 9.99, if you don't mind e-reading. I'm personally jumping up and down to get my copy, to see what all I've learned.
Ken C. Sep 8, 2009, 8:32pm EDT
I ordered the damn thing, but I will probably only read the first 499 words. Why me, Lord? Why me?
Vivian A. Sep 8, 2009, 8:39pm EDT
You're like one of those Humiliati, Ken. You enjoy self inflicted pain.
Jamie C. Sep 8, 2009, 8:52pm EDT
Hello! Don't give him more money. Check it out from the library if you must.
Beth H. Sep 8, 2009, 9:00pm EDT
The key to DB's success? Could it have anything to do with empolyees at Borders coming up to unsuspecting customers and saying, "We can pre-order DB's new book for you." Uh, no you can't. Why don't you offer to pre-order something else for me and give me a discount on it?

Humiliati? Vivian, that's lexicon worthy for sure.
Pat S. Sep 8, 2009, 9:22pm EDT
Vivian, I adore Humiliati. And I'd gladly write a really bad novel for an initial print run of 6.5 million and the royalties to go with it. I have no pride. I was most peeved to see the word Kryptos in there, as I actually have that book-marked in my idea file. Think I can sue him?
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James R. Sep 8, 2009, 8:36pm EDT
Uber characters. Nice title. I start out with thoughts about what a character might be, but the better ones grab the reins and carve out their place in a story. A character can have more depth if they have secrets or personality traits that don't emerge until they are stressed.
Vivian A. Sep 8, 2009, 8:46pm EDT
The crisis point. I tend to favor that motif as well James.
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Judi F. Sep 8, 2009, 8:39pm EDT
This is NOT a bookmark. No, sirreee. It's not.
Vivian A. Sep 8, 2009, 8:40pm EDT
Bullwinkle!
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~Sia McKye~ Sep 8, 2009, 8:50pm EDT
Now that I have a few breathing moments to consider the article, Viv....I think my flash of story idea and characters are sort of born at the same time. I let them percolate and the characters reveal more about themselves. The idea stretches and grows as they do. There have been times a scene comes to me and I write it down. Same process tho. Sometimes my characters have particular foibles but mostly they come as I get to know the character. Sometimes surprises me with a moment of OOOoooooh so THAT'S why you're this way or that. I have to say, all my characters are dealing with some sort emotional pain or scar. I dunno why. They just do. Some issue.

Pat b, lol, that's why there are logs or a rock to lean on.

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Wendy C. Sep 8, 2009, 8:51pm EDT
~No press is bad press~ Okay, if they say so. Poor DB. Did you ever get him a new keyboard Ken? One of these days I'm going to have read so of his stuff. I can take one for the team. I'm brave. hehe To mention Stephen King in the same article is just sacrilege, blasphemy I say!

Jamie what you sent me was really clean I only saw three typos. No I didn't tag them. Was I supposed to? I was having too much fun to stop for such things, dammit! smile

Lisa it will be interesting to see how China emerges from this set of circumstances. A complex people and culture to be sure. If history shows anything, China endures.

Off to have Mac-n-cheese for dinner. Entirely Ken's fault.
Jamie C. Sep 8, 2009, 8:53pm EDT
I've found two so far. Still have about 120 pages to go.
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James R. Sep 8, 2009, 8:52pm EDT
Lisa, excellent post. I notice both the Chinese and Russian leaders seem to ebb and flow between following the newer modes of operation (such as the rule of law) and then receding back into their suppressionist comfort zones. Course, I've seen a lot of movement back into comfort zones in US politics as well, but it plays out to the background of a much more free flowing dialogue of point and counterpoint.

Vivian, humiliati. Hmm. We all seem to be in the shadow of DB this month.
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Jamie C. Sep 8, 2009, 9:34pm EDT
Can I go home yet? I'm tired. Want some chocolate. Fetal position sounds comfy. Don't wanna be here no more. No, I don't.
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Wanda H. Sep 8, 2009, 9:46pm EDT
I love the word Humiliati.... it sounds perfect.

As to characters or story? They sort of seem to go together in my mind. As a character comes to mind the circumstances seem to come with the character. I can't even think of a seam where the two connect. Perhaps it's because when I see people I tell myself stories about their lives. I can't help it.

I look at the man at the next table clad in a polyester shirt, with leisure suit pants to match. His shirt sleeves too short, showing knobby wrist bones match his pants cuffs riding above too-thin ankle bones. His hair is plastered down and his hand trembles as he raises his coffee cup to his lips. The ashtray is full and he is lighting another as he waits for someone to join him.

I know he is a recovering alcoholic, sober for perhaps two weeks, waiting for his sponsor to meet him for a meal. The sponsor, another man, comes to his table. He rises, shakes the other man hand and they both sit again. The waitress brings another setting and they order.

The first man, I think his name might be Doug relaxes a bit as he leans in to listen to his sponsor speaking earnestly. The sponsor, named Mike, is three years sober and well aware that Doug is teetering on the brink. He's concentrating all his efforts on this man, who is a first-timer to the program and really struggling.

See, they have to go together.
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Jill Lynn A. Sep 8, 2009, 9:59pm EDT
I agree with Wanda and all who said story and characters are built together as a unit. While I do try to give my characters heart as I said earlier, the way I do that is by showing what they care about. In one of my novels it's a mother worried about her imprisoned, teenage son; in another a daughter's worried her beloved father's an arsonist. The characters defines the story, and the story defines the characters.
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Sherrie Super Sep 8, 2009, 10:32pm EDT
Wow Jill, congratulations on your story coming out! And I HAVE been waiting. So there!

Dang, I know I've missed a lot. I've been really focused on the WIP, and my word count is slowly creeping up. 58,640. Not that I'm counting, mind you.

I hope everyone is well!
Jamie C. Sep 9, 2009, 9:22am EDT
Go, Sherrie go!
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Jill Lynn A. Sep 8, 2009, 10:43pm EDT
Sherrie, we've missed you! And thank you :-)
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Judi F. Sep 8, 2009, 10:47pm EDT
Geez, I'm never going to get caught up. Go to bed, Wombats and stop chatting!!!

I did see Viv's comment about Half-Blood Prince. There's a reason we're kindred spirits, Viv. Yeah, what a waste of 2 hours.

Okay, back for the last 200 words then I'm calling it a night. Hopefully there will be no errands to run tomorrow (well, maybe to the post office since I haven't been to the PO Box in a while and I hear there might be something exciting in it for me) so I can get my 2000 in before bedtime.

Hi Sherrie! (and all the "regulars" of course!)

Jill, are there links where we can order? I haven't read upthread.
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Jill Lynn A. Sep 8, 2009, 10:50pm EDT
HeeHee. Started my DB entry. Cracked myself up in the first paragraph. I was enjoying myself, but am suddenly so tired I can't keep my eyes ope...

*conk*

Ouch. I hate when that happens.

'night
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Jill Lynn A. Sep 8, 2009, 10:51pm EDT
Yes, Judi
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Wendy C. Sep 8, 2009, 11:13pm EDT
Hip-Hip to Sherrie and her word count. At least you've been missing for a Writin' Wombat reason. We still miss you, the place just isn't the same.

Jill, I'm ashamed of myself for not congratulating you earlier. Went to your link and noted you were at the head of the Authors list. Alphabetical? Naw, they knew who was most important. That's my story. Yes it is.

Viv, I had to beg, plead, grovel even offer a vial of blood for months to get a copy of Pat's ms. When it is unleashed on the world, all will be made clear. Wouldn't want to ruin a delicious moment of it for you.

Off to watch my newest guilty pleasure. Warehouse 13
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Judi F. Sep 8, 2009, 11:28pm EDT
2342 words for today. Made it.
Jamie C. Sep 9, 2009, 9:21am EDT
Go Judi, go!
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simon g. Sep 8, 2009, 11:48pm EDT
I like surprising charaters. People who seem like sterieotyoes but arent. Kind of like certain Wombats.
Which reminds me, WHERE IS BEAKER! Beaker I summon you.
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~Sia McKye~ Sep 8, 2009, 11:55pm EDT
Blog guest Elle James.

Why do I Write?

As writers we plug away perfecting our writing skills. We query, we work hard for a contract and we want a book out there with our name on it. Not an easy task. But Elle asks a timely question that calls to our motivation for writing and trying to become published. WHY do YOU write? To find the answer we have to look inside.

So WHY do you write? Source of income? Creative Outlet? The challenge of it? Come share your thoughts Over Coffee.
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~Sia McKye~ Sep 9, 2009, 12:02am EDT
Sherrie, yay. You're getting there. Bet it feels good too.

Ken, funny how DB just keeps laughing his way to the bank.

Wow, Judi. At this rate it will be done before your next book comes out. :-)

Sy summons Beaker...where's the magic smoke so the Muppet can come out singed and coughing.

Jill, I'll check up thread for the link. How exciting for you.

I'm heading to bed. Jake had to work after school so he came home and promptly fell asleep before 9 so I have to get him up early so he can finish his 10 math problems he wasn't able to finish up.

Don't stay up too late Jamie or you'll be one of those cranky teachers tomorrow.
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~Sia McKye~ Sep 9, 2009, 12:11am EDT
Lisa, your blog article is very interesting. Blasted thing won't let me comment right now, not that I'm savvy in Chinese law and cultures. I'll try to comment again tomorrow.

John, I'm falling asleep over my keyboard, I'll catch your Bytes tomorrow.

G'night all!
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Elizabeth L. Sep 9, 2009, 8:37am EDT
Congratulations to Jill!

Hmmm, story or characters first? I have to say story. I think, "What if such and such happened, and then such and such?" And lo and behold, some characters come trotting right along behind the story idea. Then I say to each character, "Well, tell me a little more about yourself. What's been going on in your life before you got here?" Once I know that, the story and the characters kind of grow together and shape each other.

Sia, am off to read your blog!
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John Philipp Sep 9, 2009, 8:49am EDT
Sia, thanks for the plug on Twitter. I'd have responded to you there but I don't know how.

I have the book "Twitter for Dummies" but I haven't had time to open it yet. Until then I'm just tweeting in the dark.
~Sia McKye~ Sep 9, 2009, 2:00pm EDT
You're welcome John. I don't get much involved in twitter . I know how to post tweets and check messages that I get. Most of the stuff I do is by use of addthis on the share buttons at the end of most articles and now at the end of Gather's articles.
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Jamie C. Sep 9, 2009, 9:26am EDT
Gah! It was so tempting to call in sick this morning. I wanted to send that ms off last night, but I was too tired to finish it. Did about a half hour on it this morningas well and am still 40 pages from the end. I guess I'll finish this afternoon. Back at work now. ...hooray...

Good morning, everyone! Happy Wednesday.

Is it Friday yet? This day job is really cutting in to my writing time.

I really don't understand the appeal of Twitter. Nope.
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Pat S. Sep 9, 2009, 9:48am EDT
Good morning all. Sherrie, good to see you! Congrats on the word count. You'd have fit right in with our Labor Day write-a-thon (and might have gven Jamie a run for her money--none of the rest of us came close!)

Judi, you're doing great on the word count front as well. I'm taking a break from Anne Bonny and going back to Ashes--I've done some revisions on the opening and want to get it ready for a contest entry (the Emily) to see how it plays with audiences. Vivian, what Wendy and I were chatting about re: spectacles. Wendy has read Ashes and likes the sweet, naive (boring) Barbie-doll-heroine. She's always felt a bit cardboard to me, so I'm in the process of altering her. Hence, the too-perfect green-eyed blonde may end up nearsighted and I may change the eye color (in one passage I say something about her eyes being "an almost vulgar shade of green". In a comment on my last contest entry, the judge totally objected to the phrase and wanted an explanation of what I meant by that. Sigh. I don't think she's my target audience. I don't write for stupid people.)
Ken C. Sep 9, 2009, 9:54am EDT
"almost-vulgar shade of green"? I think that's brilliant.
Pat S. Sep 9, 2009, 9:59am EDT
Thank you, Ken. Clearly demonstrates that you are not among the stupid.
Ken C. Sep 10, 2009, 2:56pm EDT
How dare you! Of course I am.
Unbelievable what I have to put up with around here...
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Ken C. Sep 9, 2009, 9:52am EDT
Say that the book The Da Vinci Code sold around 60 million copies [KLC: today, the number is closer to 90 million]. (The Bible sold about a billion copies but let’s ignore it and limit our analysis to lay books written by individual authors.) Although we have never known a lay book to sell 200 million copies, we can consider that the possibility is not zero. It’s small, but it’s not zero. For every three Da Vinci Code-style bestsellers, there might be one super-bestseller, and though one has not happened so far, we cannot rule it out. And for every fifteen Da Vinci Codes there will be one superbestseller selling, say, 500 million copies.
- Nassim Nicholas Taleb, The Black Swan, The Impact of the Highly Improbable

I have not finished this wonderful book, but I think I know why Sy wonders what I will think of the overall theme, i.e. the tirade against bell curves (and possibly Bell Curves, ha!). I'll remind Sy that I'm an engineer and not a statistician.
To support my prescience and mental model, I'll offer up proof. When I populated my books with oddball characters, I picked a poor black kid as the smartest person in the series. That was not an accident--I'll repeat: Not An Accident. It was a specific acknowledgement of black swans, though I would not have had those words when I wrote those books.
As an engineer, I don't care if a curve is not guassian and not very bell-like. What I care about is the general idea that there is a central population with shared character with tails (perhaps very long tails) and outliers. Let's say 99 out of 100 bushes have a hungry tiger hiding in it. The hundredth has a pot of gold. This makes a difference in how you handle yourself when walking through the bushes. Get it?
ML S. Sep 9, 2009, 1:27pm EDT
That assumes perfect knowledge. That you know with certainty that out of the 100 bushes there are 99 with tigers and one with gold. In most things, perfect knowledge is impossible. Also, one must take outside forces into consideration such as a person's appetite for risk. And just because a statistical model shows that those bushes should have those attributes does not necessarily mean in the real world they will. That's part of the problem behind the risk modeling that was used in the derivative markets assumptions. Most of the statistical models had no correlation to real world occurrences and expectations because once again the known unknown is human behavior. You can normally say how a group will behave with greater certainty than an individual but what happens if enough of the individuals in the group alter their behavior. And will they then regress back to the norm or continue in their curve breaking? It's what makes the markets so interesting, the overriding human behavior aspects that most discount even though it is more often than not the most powerful force in the markets.
Ken C. Sep 9, 2009, 4:21pm EDT
You're right that I'm assuming a violation of entropy and that occasionally, the result of random chance will be in my favor. That's a matter of faith, I suppose. I stand by the point...it's great to assume every bush has a tiger behind it, because I don't care to be eaten. But, you should also be ready to take advantage of something good hiding behind the bush.
Hey, go leave a review at Amazon, I'm curious how many stars you'll give him. I can see why people don't like Taleb...but I think he's brilliant.
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Ken C. Sep 9, 2009, 10:01am EDT
In short, the drug problem's root is that lots of Americans want drugs, and that the rest of us eschew the reasonable opposites of truly penalizing consumption (a la Singapore) or of total, Darwinian legalization. So long as we keep doing this, we will guarantee to the narcotraffickers effective control of the U.S.-Mexican border and a veto on good relations between the American and Mexican people.
- Angelo M. Codevilla, Pro-Mexico, The American Spectator, June 2009
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Vivian A. Sep 9, 2009, 11:00am EDT
Damn those jobs! Get going Jamie.

Personal liberties pose a problem in any significant legislation. More importantly, as Codevilla points out, people are going to do what they want and consequences rarely affect decisions. If people can't figure out that engaging in other activities while driving substantially increase their risk for serious harm than I doubt drug use will either. Legality is irrelevant, it is the perceived morality associated with an action that has a greater effect on individuals' choices.

I don't tweet. I'm with Jamie on this one. Other than the Partridge Familyesque logo, I see no appeal.

As far as relations go, the difference in economic standings is more relevant to US policy.

Hunting for coffee.
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Wendy C. Sep 9, 2009, 11:31am EDT
Ken's on a roll this morning. I'll read it again later and perhaps I'll be able to grasp it better.

It is clear to me, Pat, your judge knows very little of the Regency period. A wonderful social age when red hair was frowned upon as showy and vulgar. Dark skin? Scandalous! An almost vulgar shade of green makes perfect sense, as does most of Jessa's 'Barbie-doll' behavior.

I wrote a paltry 500 or so words yesterday. Yeah to Judi for make goal! At the rate I'm going I'll be using NaNo to finish this one. My female MC is so emotionally constipated, this could turn out to be one of my longer pieces. The male MC has his work cut out for him, good thing he's so determined.

Working on something new, without one of the older mss begging for attention, is a strange sensation. Letting Walker take the lead was the key to moving forward.. off with me.
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Judi F. Sep 9, 2009, 11:34am EDT
morning.

How does laundry multiply overnight??? I did all of it yesterday... how can there be three more loads???

"emotionally constipated" and "extremely vulgar shade of green" = what a talented bunch we are.
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~Sia McKye~ Sep 9, 2009, 11:35am EDT
It's amazing what an 18 month old Great Dane finds to put in her mouth. I'm hoping that the Glad plug in was not in the plug when she got it. I think my son, or husband, took it out last night to refill it and never got the refills. sigh...

I've had two cups of coffee, a bowl of cereal, so far. Read some blogs, bought a couple of outfits online, and am now settling down to write in the rain--well the rain is outside. :-)
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~Sia McKye~ Sep 9, 2009, 11:37am EDT
I don't know Judi, but I think there has to be some form of *birth control* available for laundry. Washer's running now. Hey Kid of mine, ever thought of taking a shower in your clothes and well just put them in the dryer? sigh, nope that won't work.

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Kushal Poddar Sep 9, 2009, 11:54am EDT
Every story has its life so has the characters. A writer can only help them not to have two parallel lives

like any other night
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Pat S. Sep 9, 2009, 12:55pm EDT
Wendy, I laughed at "emotionally constipated". That's the PERFECT discription for Anne Bonny! Which is why I'm working on Ashes today, instead. I'm layering in more of the villain (yes, Ken, on occassion I DO listen to you!). I love reading stuff I wrote ages ago and thinking "hey, that's pretty good!" I needed a reminder I can do this, given the fits the other WIP is giving me. Got my Emily entry about done--this year, praise be, they ask all sorts of questions on the entry form to help match you with the right judge, who "gets" you. I'm billing it as Historical-romantic suspense-dark Gothic. Hopefully, they will NOT match me with a judge who prefers light-hearted romps with the ton at Regency balls. And BTW, Wendy, this one isn't Regency. It's about 17 years too late for that. It takes place the same year Victoria came to the throne--because I liked the clothes better than those flimsy Regency shifts. I wanted something with lots of petticoats. And Lily, my villain, has flaming red hair. LOL!
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Pat S. Sep 9, 2009, 12:55pm EDT
And BTW, Happy 09-09-09!
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Vivian A. Sep 9, 2009, 1:11pm EDT
Romance writers here's an eye opener, apparently Amish romances are all the rage in the Christian segment of the market. Of course controversy follows.

WSJ
Time
Jamie C. Sep 9, 2009, 1:38pm EDT
I wonder if could market Brian's Muse as an Amish romance if I put Myrna in bonnet. Hmmm.... Highly doubtful. Brian's guitar is too "electric".
Pat S. Sep 9, 2009, 1:59pm EDT
Vivian, I heard about that a week or two ago. Too bad I don't think I could ever write one. Sigh. Though I know a couple of writers of inspirational romance that might jump on that. Don't laugh. They don't know me well. And not all my friends are like Jamie.
Pat S. Sep 9, 2009, 2:01pm EDT
And WHEN will journalists brighten up and figure out that "bodice ripper" is the equivelant of the "N" word to romance writers?? Don't get me wrong--I used to love real bodice rippers, but those are HIGHLY out of fashion now. Though I've heard rumors that "enforced seduction" is making a comeback in some quarters. Sigh.
Vivian A. Sep 9, 2009, 2:06pm EDT
Pat to each their own cup of tea. The comment was not necessarily meant to be snarky just for us heathens, an eye openers. I do get inspirational romance, I see a better fit with Mennonite than Amish though. Perhaps it's all just the marketing terms.

Jamie you'd be surprised. Since I visit the area on a regular basis, Rumspringa is seriously wild. Like Sring Break wild but for a year. Many an Amish girl leaves the fold and you can find them at the never-ending row of strip clubs dotting the countryside. This is where southern NJ and PA men go for bachelor parties. Never been myself, but I have heard stories.
Pat S. Sep 9, 2009, 2:12pm EDT
I used to live among the Dutch, as us Pennsylvania Englishers called them. Often went to their Wednesday farm markets. Buggies were almost as common as cars on the road. And we heard the stories and saw the shenanigans, and there was even a pretty ugly murder case that shocked everybody in the area. But you're right, Mennonite romances would be easier to write.
Ken C. Sep 9, 2009, 3:23pm EDT
I love the way they talk...

Are ye now? (with a lilt).
Pat S. Sep 9, 2009, 4:25pm EDT
Ken, did I do my "dutch" accent for you when you were here? And it's "didja now?" (with a lilt) LOL! Yeah, my kid, who actually grew up there, has that accent. Drives me nuts.
Vivian A. Sep 9, 2009, 6:27pm EDT
Who's fault exactly is that?
Pat S. Sep 9, 2009, 8:17pm EDT
Vivian, do you mean that he grew up there and developed that accent? That would be his father's doing. And since it's the same accent as his father, that's where the 'nuts' part comes in. Though at least the kid doesn't say "fil-um" for "film". Sigh.
Vivian A. Sep 9, 2009, 10:23pm EDT
Oui. J'ai regret. I thought you had a small part in the incident, my dear.
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Wendy C. Sep 9, 2009, 1:28pm EDT
Judi, I think there has to be some form of *birth control* available for laundry.
It's called the kids move out.

Viv, I couldn't write like that if I forced myself. Well I could, but I'd want to scream the entire time. God bless em', that ain't the world I live in. Nuf out of me, I'm libel to break my neck on a soap box.

Not Regency, I knew that... 17yrs? Social set was pretty much the same, if not worse with HRH Victoria. She put the kibosh on court liaisons. Married aristocratic men were sent into vapors. hehe

Me, stalling? Never! I've got laundry to do too, dash it all. It never completely disappears.
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Jamie C. Sep 9, 2009, 1:33pm EDT
I'll do your laundry if you come teach my lab. Hurry up! It starts in 25 minutes!

Can you say distracted? Yeah, that's been me all day. 2.5 hours and counting.
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~Sia McKye~ Sep 9, 2009, 2:06pm EDT
sorry Jamie, it's been awhile since I subbed. Hmmm, the last class I subbed for was high school biology for a week. Fun but boy it stretched you.

Wendy, my kid is too young to move out, lol!
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Pat S. Sep 9, 2009, 2:14pm EDT
OK, 65 pages of Ashes edited, a few extraneous descriptions cut out,and a couple of new paragraphs from the crazy woman in the tower. Man, does she have a one-track mind. It's all death, destruction, and sin. Sheesh.
Ken C. Sep 9, 2009, 3:24pm EDT
I'd make her a bit more than flesh and blood if you catch my drift...
Pat S. Sep 9, 2009, 3:30pm EDT
No, I don't. I'm not having a lot of luck with her. Sigh.
Ken C. Sep 9, 2009, 4:22pm EDT
Must I say it?