No Whine, Just Champagne Writing Discussion #79

Perhaps you mean September 2.

John, I should have known you'd be the first to find the typo. You should hire out as a proofreader.

I wonder if you mean you'll meet on September 2nd? August 2nd was almost a month ago. Also, might you make a link to join No Whine? Or is it a private group, invite only?

Mr. Beck is much too quick for me.

I'd be glad to make a link to join No Whine if I knew how. Any suggestions? I'm glad you joined, Susan. Hope to see you tomorrow night! (The discussion is August 27 -- just goes to show . . . something. That I'm not a good proofreader, perhaps.)

Actually, there is a link. I clicked on No Whine in the "published to groups" space at the bottom of your article.

It should be August 27th, not Sept. 2nd right???

I'll try to be back tomorrow night :) Thanks Pat - and congrats on finishing up your edits.
I just finished up mine and it's back to my editor and am busy working away on my 2nd book and have begun a third :)

You're right, Jan, the discussion is August 27th. At least I got it right in the email! It's always embarrassing when I have to resend an email.

Hope to see you tomorrow night.

My sister from Mass is visiting only tonight with an early-bird flight. I'm not so sure I'll give up any time for anything besides her. :-)

I suppose it helps when you have something to promote if it's something people want.

I'll post my comment now, but I'll be missing the live discussion again. Unless something comes up (like a tornado and I find myself no longer in "Kansas"), I'll be heading out of town somewhere out there beyond the reaches of this dark dusty world (wide web) this afternoon.

My writing week was less productive than I would have liked. I did finish rewriting chapter six of a novel I dug out of my pile of brick-a-brack and started on chapter seven. I've been toning down some spots that were quite intense, lopping off some stuff that seems entirely lame, and adding to scenes that seemed weak. I have been blogless and feeling uninspired for anything to blog about. I just can't seem to get the knack for blogging about nothing and my life like most blogs seem to have.

Mostly my mind seems to be ticking down my writing to-do list without actually feeling any compulsion to do anything.


Pat, I think you are absolutely right about there being something more, a key to unlock those doors, to internet promotion. I'm still learning about linking (having trouble too with those darned links, whatchamacallits where you link a few words to the destination site instead of having to put in the address in the body of the post). My thoughts on some of the things necessary:

- It's not enough to have a means to drive traffic to our many sites (blogs, websites, networking sites, twitter, fan pages, etc), there needs to be a way to make people actually want to go there.

- Here's a link, there's a link, everywhere's a link link link. They need to be short, sweet, simple, intriguing, and everywhere.

- If they can't find you, they won't come. It doesn't matter how many links, blogs, discussions, etc you have if no one can find you. If you show up on page 23 of a search result, ... yeah, well no one actually takes the time to go down that far looking.

- Advertising. Where is it, how do you get it, how do you drive people to it and get in in their faces so they just have to check this crazy writer chick (or guy) out? The key - without spending a pile of money. Youtube is supposed to be phenomenal, but I am technologically challenged. I'm thinking of putting on a clip of my 4 yr old singing "the yucky song" to promote my first book (if I ever get published) just because it's dumb stuff like that which seems to get all the Youtube traffic and attention. But first comes learning how to get people to actually want to follow you and your links.

- Become something people want to talk about without it being because they think you're a complete idiot. Well, ok that works for some. Some people get quite rich and famous by being an idiot and doing dumb things. "Jackass" is a strange phenomenon that seems to attract droves of men and teens - I rest my case. The question is what do you want to be known for?

And finally, my aha moment: I discovered how to get that wierd little guy and his sidekick past the boiling lava goo in the playground on the Spongebob Wii game my four yr old is addicted to.

I'll try to make the discussion, but between taking son number 3 for his eye test, sitting by him while he practices for his driving test, and helping him take notes on MFA programs and application procedures... plus picking up son number 2 and making dinner...

... so about that writing. My characters were leaving me to write "the end" in very boring letters earlier this week, but now they've started talking again, just when I've run out of time to write. Murphy's Law I guess. Not a very productive week.

And the networking and promotion? In my more cynical moments I wonder if writers aren't all selling to each other, but I suppose writers are readers too. A multiply-linked pond of water-drops, and somehow there has to be a way for the tadpole to turn into a frog and jump out.

I guess I'm a half minute early.

Hello everyone. Sounds like you have very busy this week, Pat.

Hi there John!

Wasn't as busy as usual, Deborah. Just seems like it.

Hi! John, did you get bored and leave?

I've had a busy week, but a lot of it was just in my mind :(

I'm gearing up to participate in a 3-day novel competition over Labor Day weekend :)

Susan -- three days! How much are you supposed to write?

the goal is 200 pages. I'm getting together a pretty detailed outline, but I feel like I'm still way behind BUT this is better for me so far than the NaMoWeiMos where I write for three days and then procrastinate for a whole month

Not bored. Couldn't see anyone else's comments until now.

Do you mean to say you're going to write 70 pages a day?! Eek. That many pages would take me two months!

John, did you ever hear back about your short story?

I just talked with my daughter about her novel. She's still a bit skittish about submitting it for publication just yet. As I "told" Warren Adler, my idea of short story writing and the ones they picked as winners differs considerably.

I also had an ah ha moment!

I was chatting with an online friend about this story and realized that nearly every story I've started has come from a dream (nightmare) that was memorable enough to last until got it down on paper after I awoke.

Dreams themselves are sometimes vivid enough to make good stories.

I believe it! :)

I thought those stories would be critiqued but I was wrong. So I posted it on Gather as "Decision".

Has your daughter read any books about self-editing? Perhaps she'd feel more comfortable about sending out queries if she gave it one more going over. Also, a person can send out a lot of queries without anyone ever wanting to take a look at the manuscript. The querying process is completely different from novel-writing.

I'm not sure what her process has been.

I cut as many "was" statements from my short story as I could get away with. My daughter tells me she was taught never to use a form of the "be" verb in the first sentence.

Do you all start your novels with an outline?

So that's why "It was a dark and stormy night" is considered such a terrible first sentence!

Actually, there's a school of thought that one should never use any form of the verb "to be." Not sure why -- I think because to say something "is" makes it static, and everything remains in a state of change. Still, challenging every "was" is a good idea. Not necessarily getting rid of them, but knowing why you are keeping them. I kept way more than I should, because of constructions such as:

The cat was in the house.
And so was something else.

I could make the cat more active -- stood in the house, sat on the couch in the house, paced the house, whatever, but the "something else" didn't do any of those things. It was simply in the house.

Using be words makes sentences passive. Sentences with active verbs are easier to move forward.

The cat crouched in the house. Something else lingered in the shadows.

Hey John! I use chapter breakdowns (doesn't sound as daunting). This is a one paragraph sketch of what happens in each chapter. It's very helpful to keep me on track with the timeline. I use multiple POVs in my novels, so if I see that there are 2-3 chapters with one character in the lead, I know where to insert a different character's POV.

Do you then write in a linear fashion or do you jump from chapter to chapter?

I usually have the first 5-6 chapters sketched out before I begin a novel, and various elements I know will be implemented. And I always have the ending figured out.

In between is where I no longer go linear. Sometimes I only have a snippet of dialogue I know needs to be said. Or a bit of foreshadow, sometimes a change in locations. Even changes in weather can re-focus a chapter.

I do write one chapter at a time though--but not necessarily in order.

I trimmed "was" by making my descriptions part of action or dialogue rather than just descriptive lines. I was perhaps overzealous in doing so.

Hey Pat and everyone, I don't know how to market on line, but how about selling to the libraries? They buy lots of books and there are quite a few in America and Canada. Does 2nd Wind sell to libraries? Are you responsible for your own distributiin and sales? Aren't there distribution companies who charge a small percentage to distribute your book to book stores?

Hi, Nancy.

John, no I don't start with an outline as such, but I do have a vague idea of what the story is, how it begins, and where it ends. I'm not one who can just sit down an let the words flow like some sort of literary automatic writing.

I do a timeline as I'm writing, though, to keep track of where I've been. It's too easy to get confused about how many hours or days have passed. My first novel had about ten weekdays before the first weekend.

:)

Nancy, Second Wind will sell to libraries. I don't know if they give them a discount, though. I should ask. And yes, there are distribution companies, but they take a huge percentage to distribute to stores. There are only a couple of major distributors, so they have almost as much say in the publishing world as the major publishers, major retailers, and major agents.

Hi John, I do outlines, lots of them. I find they help me to keep organized and to concentrate on certain elements, such as characterization, letting the reader slowly get to know the main character, of course actiion and new characters coming in and being 'red herrings". I find though, that once I get going it changes from the outline, and I let it, it always goes better when I don't try too hard to control the characters.

I see, Pat. There is a local author who wrote a fiction murder mystery and in that mystery are clues as to where the dagger (murder weapon) is hidden in Vegas. The person who finds that dagger will win $25,000.00. He has web site, blog and it has been announced on the news. No one has found it yet, but I wonder how many people have bought his book to find the dagger. Genius marketing strategy.

Now that's marketing!

But who has $25,000 to give away?

Right! I'd be afraid only one person would buy my booik and then find the dagger.

I always tell myself that I'll write whichever scene pops into my head, but I have a linear mind, so I prefer to write chronologically. So that means if I don't know where to go from where I am, then I just hang around until I figure it out.

I keep notes for future scenes, though. Notes for character ideas. Notes for snippets of dialogue or description. I suppose all those notes could be construed as an outline.

I finished the last new chapter today. I've been doing some editing, but don't feel all the writings done, yet. Sometimes I think I'll be writing and rewriting this book forever. The second book in the series is written and it will be interesting to see if it goes through as many reincarnations. I hope not, but whatever. LOL

That's why I wanted to get published -- or at least one of the reasons. When the book is published, it's definitely finished. (Except with digital printing, that no longer holds true. Drats.)

Hi, folks. My first time here, so I hope I don't say anything spastic.

Wrt the question, my week has gone well. I'm 5 days from delivering my MS to my editor, and I'm dotting Ts and crossing Is. At the current pace, I should make the deadline.

Wrt outlines: I outline, I spreadsheet, I draw pictures. Anything that helps. The past few days have been taken up with timeline-tightening, making sure events are happening on the right days, that the characters are saying the right time-oriented things (i.e. "Yesterday we were on the bus..." and I check the timeline and it's supposed to say "A couple days ago we were on the bus..." Yipes. Everything seems to be very anal at the end of the road, much unlike the process at the beginning.

That's why I've gotten into the habit of doing a timeline after I complete each chapter. Trying to figure out when they got on the bus, how many got on the bus, and where they got on the bus once the novel is completed is a real pain.

Hi, Rand. And you haven't said anything spastic. Congratulations on getting your book published!

Do chapter breaks generally fall naturally or does one need to consciously "hook" the reader from time to time and find appropriate places to do that?

Chapter breaks fall naturally, so you have to break them in unnatural places. Don't "end" a chapter. Leave it up in the air. Every chapter (ever paragraph some writing coaches say) should begin with a hook. Every one needs to end with a bit of a cliffhanger

Different schools of thought about chapter breaks. Some say always end a chapter with a cliffhanger, but I, personally, dislike that as a reader. I find it silly and forced. I much prefer a natural chapter break at the end of a scene.

this is a problem I have. my chapters just kinda end when I run out of breath :(

I couldn't find the right word, maybe a bit of suspense? I don't always end on a cliffhangar, but I try not to end at a place where someone could put the book down and not pick it up again.

On the other hand, I deplore the current fad of breaking in the middle of a conversation so that the reader is forced to continue reading. It's cheap and a cheat.

When I read, I prefer to put it down at a chapter break if practical.

That's exactly what I was thinking of, Pat, where the heroine will be insulted, and she'll stomp her feet. Chapter ends. Then the beginning of the next chapter has her saying "How dare you?" Ack.

I try to foreshadow throughout a book to add suspense. Whether this works or not is another story :-)

Everyone does, John. Which is why they come up with all those cheap ways of tricking you into beginning the next chapter. It gives the impression of a thriller without the events of the story needing to be gripping. I've trained myself to put a book down in the middle of a chapter.

A soap opera technique. Friday's show has all the drama, and then the conclusion in the first five minutes on Monday. In between, same old same old for YEARS.

I imagine one of the challenges of novel writing is maintaining consistent energy. I read a non-fiction book which was well written until the last chapter. I had the feeling that the author was under a time constraint or just lost his creative energy.

that sure happens to me

John - I find that chapters typically involve one or two scenes. And since a scene has a beginning, a middle, and an end, the chapter breaks fall out naturally. It's a bonus when you can tie the end of one chapter to the beginning of the next with a seque or a hook.

For example:

End of one chapter:

"Gee, I hope all our noise didn't wake up Mr. Grumpypants."

Beginning of next chapter:

Mr. Grumpypants rolled over in bed. Not sure why he was suddenly awake, he dropped to the floor and peered out the window at the marching band in the yard next door. Well, that might have had something to do with it.

I already have a picture of Mr. Grumpypants.

John, that's why you need to write a book with characters you can live with for a very long time. Some people suggest writing the first draft as quickly as possible so you don't lose the vision, the energy, the passion. But some people (me) aren't built like that. The best we can hope for is to create characters that we like. Which is why I don't have my characters do stupid things or make mistakes or be thoughtlessly careless. Those characters become very tedious to me. The conflicts in my books generally come from outside the character. (I'm not a fan of the fatal flaw.) It's the only way I can deal with the characters for years on end.

If you read the pulps from years ago, or watched serials like Flash Gordon at the movies (or later, on TV), these things thrived on hooks. Even to the point where it was obvious that the hero was going to die because he fell into a pit one Saturday afternoon, and the following Saturday afternoon when the story picked up again he never even got near the edge.

Dan Brown is a king of hooks. Some might not agree with his premise or his writing style, but hooks he gave you. Keeps you reading and reading.

I think that's the secret to Dan Brown's success -- he keeps readers racing through his books that most don't stop to analyze his style. Of course, there are always those few . . .

I'm sorry if I've monopolized the direction of this discussion, especially on my first time.

it's an interesting discussion! I learn a lot from each of you

No apology necessary, John. We LOVE discussing these kinds of writerly subjects.

Susan, if you run out of breath at the end of a chapter -- well, that's what rewrites are for: to find the perfect or pithy ending to a chapter.

good point!

John, it's been great! Monopolize all you want. We all love to show off what we think we know. And we all end up learning something from these discussions.

Now Rand's example of a chapter break (above about Mr. Grumpypants) is something I aim for; slick transitions between scenes and chapters.

I'm not asking anyone to read "Decision". All I ask is that if anybody does wade through the 2500 words, please be brutal in your critique.

I took a look at it, John, and enjoyed what I read, but I don't critique. Lost my taste for it after the gather contests. I'll go back and read the rest of it. Glad you reminded me.

Looks like we're done. Goodnight, all!

I really, really disliked soaps that tantalized on Fridays but actually delivered nothing. But it must work, because soaps still have audiences.

I'll chime in on outlines--I don't do a formal one before I write, but I do know the end of the story. So I at least know where I have to end up. I make notes for items I'm afraid of forgetting--someone's whole name, family members, a favorite something.

Thank you all for participating. And John, please come and monopolize any time you wish. Truly. There are a lot of very good writers who participate in the discussion, and they are generous with their time and suggestions.

Nice seeing everyone. Until next time...