Open Discussion: What do the Stars and Stripes mean to you?

For me, a flag is just a piece of cloth. The flag is an idea. That idea represents one of the few attempts to create a nation rather than some person's property. The King and the king's family literally owned the land and in many senses, the people who lived on that land. The idea that a government could be something other than the will of the owner of the land was, if not new, at least rarely practiced. Our Founding Fathers did attempt to put that idea into practice.

So the flag of the USA means a lot to me. But I am not loyal to any flag as a piece of cloth so I really don't care particularly how people wear or treat it as a piece of cloth. It is how people treat that idea that a government should be something that defends and protects the citizens that I care about. When I see or hear that idea abused, that does concern me.

Finally, the flag is used to provide messages, particularly in the military. I feel most of those messages quite deeply. Just thinking about them, the hair on the back of my neck stands up and my eyes tear. The presentation of the flag to the family of a fallen soldier, the flag at half mast, the flag at the tomb of the unknown soldier, these things affect me because I have some idea of the sacrifices that have been made by those who have come before me.

Well put, Larry. You adeptly delineate the object from what it symbolizes. That's important to remember! In response to your last paragraph, those reactions seem very personal. You don't need to answer this if you don't want to, but do you have personal experience with the military, through friends or family, or even yourself?

I have had relatives who served in the military but none that I was really close to. I have had friends who died serving their country in Viet Nam, but none whom I was particularly close to.

No, my feelings come from being a student of military history. I have learned what it means to serve in time of war. My knowledge is not first hand but close enough to understand, a little, what it is like. That little bit of understanding is plenty to strongly affect my emotions.

My own service was limited to ROTC which is hardly the real thing.

Ahh, I see.

I decided a few days ago our flag is a really ugly design. I love the old flag Venice used to use. But I don't think they use it anymore. Ugly flags are a shame because everybody makes you look at them. I think the U.S. flag should be totally re-done in a neato art deco look. The artless right-wing-flag-worshipers will go ape bananas at the idea of improving something like that, but why should they always run the show.

Haha, interesting point, Peter. I wish there was a way you could share images or drawings more easily - I'm interested in more specifics of how you think this new flag should look. How important is how the flag looks to what it means to you?

There's lots of ways to do an art deco flag, I think, with the 50 stars.

I don't have anything in particular in mind right now. I just know it could be done marvelously.


I think art deco means "modern America" and "urban America" and "sophisticated cultured America" - and art deco is neat to look at, anyway.

The Bill Of Rights...for all the people all the time.

That hits hard, brojer n. Why that specifically?

Our leaders who take the oath of office on the bible and swear to uphold the constitution, and then proceed to ignore it whenever it suits their purposes deserve no loyalty from us. One of our founding fathers said, "Government is best which governs least." I usually think of the Bill of Rights when I see the flag, and it saddens me to think it is meaningless to so many citizens.

Before I was mature enough to think for myself, I (like most Americans) was indoctrinated into pledging allegiance to the flag. I held my hand over my heart at ballgames, and all that crap. And that's what it is; crap. Basically patriotism is a device governments use to con the public into supporting wars and policies that wouldn't otherwise fly.

To illustrate this, here's what Hermann Goering said when interviewed in his cell at the Nuremberg trials: Here's what he said about war during the Nuremberg trials to Gustave Gilbert, an American intelligence agent:

"Why, of course, the people don't want war, Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece. Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship."

"There is one difference," his interviewer pointed out. "In a democracy the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare wars."

"Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."

You're definitely well-versed in this trial, Robert. That's admirable. If patriotism is, as you say, a hoax, do you show any respect to your country at all? What is it about the USA that makes it somewhere you'd like to live?

I can think of a lot of places in the U.S. I'd hate to live - and would take Paris France over them. But I love Minneapolis in particular. I'm very patriotic feeling to Minneapolis (and I'm not even from here).

After that I'm a citizen of a small planet that needs cared for.

You make a good point, Peter. There're so many places that make up the US, patriotism and the country can mean different things to different people. Where are you from originally?

And Robert - do you identify at all with what Peter is saying?

I don't feel I need to demonstrate respect for my country, and certainly not by rote the way people pledge to the flag or take off their hat at a ballgame. I respect some aspects of our country; economic opportunities, characteristics of American people like industriousness and fortitude and ability to make business, and reverence for positive attitude (contrast to the British for example). I have respect for many Americans. But, what the flag represents? I don't have a lot of respect for that. American's think it's about our history, which few know much about, and some associate it first and foremost with our soldiers "fighting for our freedom" which is another delusion since no soldier in the last 60 years has fought (in any of the 20 military actions we've been involved in) against any adversary that actually threatened our freedom. So basically, in my view, what most American's think about the flag is based on a sham. Sorry...

Furthermore, I detest nationalism. I'm all for helping American interests first because that's what we can most easily affect with our actions, but I don't think American's are Reagan's "shining city on the hill" or the "chosen people" with God on our side. We're no better than people of any other country.

And yes, I identify with what Peter is saying. I'd rather live in Paris than most American cities or towns, but I like where I am and value the opportunity to be here. I also agree with Peter that the design of the flag leaves something to be desired. Not talking about what anyone think it represents, but the pure design quality, which borders on grotesque. We discussed this a few days ago and I suggested the Raymond Lowey should have done a re-design of the flag.

Well thought out, Robert! No need to apologize, either - we're all entitled to our own opinion, regardless of the subject! It's interesting to read your perspective - your viewpoint is as valid as anyone else's.

Thanks Eliza, but I never described patriotism as a "hoax." My characterization is that it's a exploitative device.

Well said, Robert. I totally agree.

I'm with John Lennon...imagine there's no countries.

Thanks for the clarification, Robert.

Love it, Sheryl. I'm totally a John Lennon fan.

A flag to me is a symbol for freedom.

What about it makes it symbolize that, Minipin?

The Stars and Stripes stands for the people that came before me that fought for freedom. That, endowed by OUR CREATOR, the unailanable rights of LIFE, LIBERTY, AND THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS.

The personal and economic freedoms that allow us to be the most prosperous country in the world. The reason why so many countries hate us.

This is still a country which people will die for to get here. Cuba, N Korea, Venuzuala are so confident in their society that they force people to stay!

This is a country where the person who turns the wrench or cooks the food can still open their own business.

And I still think what Kayne Robinson said, "the scariest people in the world are free people who hate freedom".

Go ahead, burn the flag, if it's your property. Yes, it's a bold and to some very offensive, but your right. But be ready to suffer the consequences of public opinion if you do.

Winston, they don't hate us because we're the most prosperous country in the world. Think about this for a moment. If you see a guy driving a Ferrari Berlinetta Boxer down the road do you hate him because he's prosperous? This idea that people in other countries hate us for our freedom or wealth is pure nonsense. Those who do hate us, hate us for the terrible things we've done around the world, like installing tyrannical dictators, imposing our political will in their countries by supporting (financially and militarily) dictators who act in our, not their interest. And they hate the terrorist acts which we performed, which resulted in such things as South American death squads and the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis after Gulf War 1 when we bombed the water purification facilities and refused to allow repair.

Now think this over. Which is a more likely cause for hatred.

Our Flag means freedom and stands for the people that fought for our country.
The Pledge means a lot to me. The National Anthem (if sang by the right person) still gives me goose bumps!

We proudly fly the American flag at our home. We pledge allegiance to the flag which is symbolic of America... (the stars, the stripes) meaning we will defend our country to the end.

Political parties aside, if you do not value the intended symbolism of our flag, which... by the way represents freedom, then you need to live in another country. There are a lot of people who do not respect much about America, but then, they are the same people who don't have much respect for anything that does not personally revolve around themselves.

I do understand some of the comments regarding lack of respect abroad, and that a lot of countries don't envy America because we do tend to try imposing our form of democracy on other countries. I feel they have the right to have whatever type of government they want as long as they leave everyone else alone to do the same. In that respect we do become involved in wars that are not ours.

However, we... the people do have some control over our government. We... the people, for the most part, are proud of our country, our flag and our freedom. This is how I feel about displaying the American flag and showing my patriotism. If I'm not happy with the party that is in office, I will work toward changing that in the next election. I'm not going to place blame on one or the other because, as we all know, it takes very special events to declare war.

Too many people are so easy to buy into scare tactics because it's easier than checking into the facts for themselves. These are the people who, like the lemming, follow to the edge of the cliff out of ignorance. GOD BLESS AMERICA AND THE FLAG!

As a scoutmaster for many years I always explained to the boys that the flag is only a symbol. It means nothing if the person holding it doesn't have faith and pride in what we as citizens can do. Our opening ceremony always included the pledge, the a sparkler (a card with a picture pasted on it - the flag, statue of liberty, Mt Rushmore, an eagle, a sequoia tree, something such as that) and they read the three or four sentences on the back before they went into the scout law. It was great over time to see them begin to understand that the citizen brings the pride and loyalty to the flag, not the other way around.
I also posted here on gather a bit of brilliant thought by George Washington that gave us the thirteen stripes.