As follow up to Susan B.’s post in which editors and members discussed submission guidelines, I am going to use my space today to walk you through a day of editing from my seat. I invite you to critique my editing - after reviewing the thoughts behind my decisions.
I am not pleased with the numbers in the Writing Essential group. When I see 3,000 members and only a handful participating, I want to know what I can do to entice the remaining members. Being of Simon Cowel influence, I don't believe loosening standards is necessarily the way to attract writers or readers to a writing group. Here's your chance (again) to tell me. I’ve asked several times for feedback and received very little response – most likely because members aren’t reading from the group. Susan’s post had over 100 comments last time I looked, still from a small fraction of the total membership, and I’m guessing mostly from her connections and friends. Not a good reflection of the overall group, in my opinion.
So, I’m trying once again. I would love to hear from Writing Essential members who are not participating in the group. Even more, I would love to hear from writers and readers who are not in the group. Anything we could do differently to encourage you to join and participate?
Since Gather dedicated one Essential group to writing, I view it as a bookstore, with each day/editor being a section or genre of that store. I dedicated my section – Tuesday – to fiction and offered an interactive, creative writing workshop in the main aisle. For the most part, it is easy to determine what belongs in my section but occasionally I run across posts that are true crossovers.
Since my section is small, I try to represent as many different authors and sub-categories as possible. Because I respect my patrons, I try to make sure they will not be disappointed in the quality of what I offer.
I use this definition in performing my duties as a member editor:
Edit
1 a: to prepare (as literary material) for publication or public presentation b: to assemble (as a moving picture or tape recording) by cutting and rearranging c: to alter, adapt, or refine especially to bring about conformity to a standard or to suit a particular purpose <carefully edited the speech> <edit a data file>2: to direct the publication of <edits the daily newspaper>3: delete—usually used with out
Tuesday, August 4, 2009
Started with 47 in queue. 13 people already had more than one post in queue - several with 3 and one person with 4. If I approve two for each of these members at the beginning of the day, I have to remember that, go back to check, or take a chance on accidentally flooding the thread with the work of a few people (not to mention that some will probably submit more throughout the day). What to do?
The easy ones first:
Video announcement of published book - accepted
1 political post (dated 3/15/09) - and you know how I love politics. This post belongs in Gather Politics Essential.
3 diary entries/I’m here posts – rejected
1 poll (with an error in the blurb) – rejected
1 game (after directing author to an appropriate group) – rejected from Writing Essential, although I appreciate that it is a unique, thoughtful (and thought-provoking) game. First Draft of Movie Quotes
Fiction – well written and a pleasure to read – 4 – accepted
Fiction – multiple submissions by one author whose work meets my fiction theme, but has errors in the titles and blurb (in the past, this author has told me he doesn’t have to follow the rules of writing.) Rejected until corrected.
The not so easy ones:
16 poems, several multiples from authors, some more than a week past publish date, some with errors in titles and blurbs. I accepted the three that told stories and satisfied prompts from other editors.
9 snippets - I am probably one of the biggest advocates of tight, terse, clean writing you’ll find, making this a most difficult call. I understand the value in practicing the art of snipping unnecessary words. I also understand (all too well) the wrath of people who will accuse me of playing favorites, belonging to a clique, or not understanding that members write on different levels. So, while I saw a couple that truly wow’ed me, I am not accepting them. My rationalization – I compare posting a snippet to a sound bite, or to selling a book cover and expecting the reader to be happy with the cover blub. I would probably overlook a few covers without stories at the bookstore, but wouldn’t return if I saw too many. Since I can’t accept a few without risking the wrath I previously mentioned, and I see an increasing number of snippets, I will not accept snippets in the Tuesday aisle.
5 prompts for other days – approved, (although the author of two stated publicly that she will not post on my day, which cast a negative reflection on my project)
1 story (dated 7/21) that has been posted multiple times, I have accepted in the past but won't look at again - rejected
1 writing exercise challenge - approved
Editor’s Pick from this list: The Poet’s Many Loves – Liandra
Now, I’m ready to start with the new submissions of the day. I’ll be back to update.
COMING TWO WEEKS FROM TODAY: Revamp of Interactive Creative Writing Project
End of day wrap-up
Actions after the earlier report:
Accepted
1 writing prompt
1 fiction
1 personal essay that reads like a great story
Rejected
10 poems
3 snippets
2 videos (not writing related)
1 non-fiction personal essay that was posted to about 100 point-whoring groups
2 prayer requests
1 book review (belongs in Gather Books Essential)
1 product review
3 personal essay/diary entries
1 insult to me
4th installment of fiction story, still with an error in the title
1 Happy Birthday
43 contributors
1 each – 27 members
2 each – 8 members
3 each – 2 member
4 each – 4 members
1 member submitted 8 posts
I received 49 email notifications for 31 posts – probably due to editing - which means I processed some more than once.
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Comments: 73
However, I do understand other editors trying to encourage people to write. I think it's almost impossible to dump this all in one group, even one divided by different days.
This is music to my ears, Barb. If I owned WE, this is how I would want writers to view it. I think participation (especially readers) would increase.
Snippets ~ "Where WE WRITE in "30" words or less, and delete the rest!"
Our 2nd Snippets CHALLENGE began SATURDAY, August 1st at 12 Noon Eastern Time ~ and ends on TUESDAY, August 4th at MIDNIGHT Eastern Time . . .
They're probably trying for that group.
I appreciate your continuing this discussion, Sandy. I went back through the poems I've submitted over the past two months and discovered that of the six that were rejected, four were rejected on your day. I spend Saturday writing, Sunday and Monday editing, and then usually post on Tuesday (never more than one or two poems), I have to say that I have been disappointed.
I don't believe that anyone is behind actual standards being loosened. Quality is important. I do however believe that personal preferences can be softened in such a way that allows acceptance of those pieces that still fit the quality guidelines of the group itself. A library or bookstore is not limited to one aisle, and they continue to receive diverse shipments even on those days when an author is visiting to perform a booksigning.
I believe Nancy's idea is the best compromise for everyone concerned. Pieces that fit your personal criteria for your day's theme should receive the spotlight on that day. Accept those and feature them. Other pieces of quality, even if they aren't fiction or of great length, should be accepted.
As a member, I found the list and explanations of what you accepted and rejected to be fair, for the most part. But as a poet, and a person who has had four poems rejected on the day I usually submit them, who never submits over the number limit you've set, who edits carefully and who doesn't post to point whore groups, I find myself puzzled at the continued rejection of my work.
I already employ Nancy's idea. I accept all fiction and feature my theme (interactive creative writing project).
The big problem is that Gather lumped all writing into one essential. I think poetry deserves its own group. Unfortunately, your genre is the one where the most people submit multiples. Several poets submit three or more a day (at least I see three or more on my list - could be others are leaving them for me).
On the other side of this, I've heard from people who haven't participated (or read) this group because there was so much poetry and junk. I wanted to offer one day of creative writing.
If we can only have one group - I think it would be nice if we had one day for poetry, one for essays, one for humor, one for fiction . . . etc. Those of us who want to post to the group could hold our work until the appropriate day. But I don't own the group and can't make that decision.
I promise I will think more about how to deal with this. I really, really hate to reject someone who edits carefully and doesn't post to point whore groups.
There are poets who submit multiples a day too, and sometimes it bothers me, sometimes it doesn't. It does dilute the pool somewhat. I admit I'm less likely to read several poems in a row from one poet, as I enjoy a more diverse selection. Having a quantity limit, as you do, makes complete sense.
Nor am I arguing that all of the poetry you get is quality stuff. Believe me. ;)
I think it does come down to there being only one writing group, and that the group itself has shifted in two years from having a focus on poetry once a week. The quality stuff was showcased then, and while there wasn't any more critique happening in the Good Ol' Days, there was still a lot to be taken from the poetry day.
I wish I could say that I'm fine with just hanging onto my work and posting it on another day but... I'm old, I have my schedule, I -like- my schedule, and there is no one day for poetry. While the other editors who accept poetry are wonderful to do so, I'm finding myself less and less exchanted with the group. I suppose that makes me a cranky ol' fart, but it -was- better way back when. I spent more time here, participated in a broader variety of topics and learned a great deal. With poetry on the sidelines...
Well. Thank you, anyway, for offering the chance to ask you about this, and for your answer. I still think my work fits your criteria but I also understand that you have your way of doin' things and I have mine. I'll take care to avoid hitting the WE group when submitting on future Tuesdays.
There always seems to be a lot of problems surrounding writers/writing.
I also don't understand why those who are editors for specific days/genres tend to ONLY those responsibilities and leave the rest to the editors in charge of their own days/genres. TAGS would solve that problem, and a heading specifying which day group they're posting to.
But what do I know? It was already too conflicting and confusing, and I decided not to participate for those reasons.
Good luck to you.
As for your Tuesday WE group... we weren't all "writers", we just wanted to learn how to write. I can still do it from the sidelines without getting involved.
Debra, I consider people who want to learn how to write - writers. (Should that dash be there?) The desire and willingness to learn are what I'm looking for - not perfection. I wouldn't pass my own guidelines if I was looking for perfection.
Writers are people who know there is a difference between putting words on paper and delivering a product to a reader - even if they aren't sure how to accomplish that difference yet.
There's a group description and a guide on the group homepage regarding the theme of the day. Other than that, each editor has been allowed to set his/her own guidelines. I ran mine past Jennifer before I started and she approved.
James and I try to leave critique a couple of times a week on poems that catch our eye, and Atticus does as well. You might have better luck just going to our profiles and reading those comments (especially James Ciriaco's), but there are some articles in the featured section that have useful bits.
Don't mind me, it's a grey, rainy, gloomy sort of day here, and I'm letting myself get disheartened by the complete lack of effort from others who have paid lip-service to the concept. You're one of the good 'uns.
There is a lot of fluffing going on, at the moment. Tomorrow I'll be posting a "how to critique poetry" workshop article, and there may be some large changes coming in by the weekend to hopefully weed a lot of that out. It wasn't what the group was set up for. I want people who are willing to make an effort to participate in what the group was designed for, and it's going to happen even if I have to ruffle a few feathers.
If there's any chance that TPTB will consider breaking the week into genres, would you be interested in moderating a poetry day? If you are and they are willing, I would step aside. Obviously, more people want to post poetry than fiction on my day. I had nine more after the ones that were waiting this morning. (I think, I'm getting ready to do a final tally.)
I'm incredibly flattered by your offer, Sandy (although having anyone step aside for me is an uncomfortable thought I have to say, as I really don't have the credentials that previous poetry editors did). Unfortunately, I'm going back to school in the fall for a cert in social work. My summer has been open but that's going to change very soon; between school work, my little man and working to get my chapbook published, I can't responsibly accept.
Gather certainly does have some prolific poets, doesn't it?
Honesty is the best policy. At least for my peace of mind.
I've enjoyed getting to know you and wish you luck in school and with the book. I started on that social work degree once and had to change tracks when I found out I wouldn't make enough to support my family. I sure hope that has changed because it is so WRONG.
I respect honesty, I respect transparency, although it does sometimes bring trouble with it. And I admit, I'm glad I'm at a point in my life where I can disagree with someone on an issue, or various points, and not have it go all drama-bomb on me. This was refreshing. Thank you, Sandy. :)
I should call my mom and let her know I've finally grown up!
I'm probably not a good fit for WE since I'm not willing to compromise or to commit to accepting things "just because".
The types of writing which I can do with some skill, and enjoy doing, are pretty limited. I mostly write long, intolerant, hate-filled screeds with the sole intention of hurting as many people as possible. I do this in order to mitigate my soul-crushing feelings of inadequacy, and also to pay back the world for every indignity I've ever suffered.
Still, I figured I could enjoy reading the other things and telling the authors what I liked about them. That might be helpful, yes? The problem is that every time I try to think of something nice to say, I remember that I'm addressing my comment to a writer. I hate everyone, but I hate writers most of all. They sit there, with their pens and their paper, looking at me like I'm some kind of unidentified leftover casserole from last week. God, that pisses me off. The more I think about it, the more my rage builds until it reaches the point where not even insulting a writer will satisfy my urges.
(I'd probably have more participation.)
Then everybody would want to get in on the action. If there's one thing I hate more than writers, it's writers stealing my schtick.
If writers ever got their hands on it, they'd give it a foreign-sounding name, and start experimenting with it in the most deadly serious manner. They'd sit around in their Abercrombie and Fitch pleated pants and their oxford shirts, sipping their overpriced California riesling and nibbling on Vermont cheddar. All the while, they'd be congratulating themselves on having mastered yet another genre, completely forgetting about the people like me who they trod upon thoughtlessly even though they would be nothing without me.
It just makes me so mad.
Okay then, what if I make Tuesday long, intolerant, hate-filled screed day and only accept submissions from YOU. That would make my job easier.
One of the problems for me was the tight deadline. I don't usually like doing quickie writings. I've done a couple but I like to take the time to let the piece settle and edit it a bit. I did miss your character prompts and would love to join in.
I think the confusing thing for me was the many different editors for the different days and the very short deadlines. Now I understand better and will choose which days I'm interested in and go from there.
As for honest critiquing, it's hard to come by on Gather. I love poetry, write it fairly often but truly, I don't feel educated enough to critique a poem. I write poetry that one could call 'cowboy poetry' and some that remind me of Edgar Guest. I l like rhyming work and aim for that as well. I also get a kick out of learning a new form and working within the contstains of a rigid form.
I will offer a critique of a fiction piece from time to time but I've learned to only offer it to certain people. When I receive an honest critique I'm always grateful and usually am able to learn something from it.
I'm going to keep closer watch on your Tuesday group. If you decide to form another group I'd like to be part of that as well. And Sandy, I really appreciate having a longer period of time to prepare a piece.
Again, music to my ears. Originally, I wanted to post a prompt and have people submit their responses the following Tuesday. Most people didn't want to wait that long, so I created the sub group (Wee WE) so people could post as they wanted without disrupting other theme days. I'm encouraged when someone wants to let a piece settle - and edit. Encouraged and excited.
Honestly, I did think WE was supposed to be the "best" of our work - not what we could shoot out quickly. One person submitted seven posts today and a number of others multiples. I see the same names multiple times every day in my email notifications - so I don't think "the best we have" is how members view this group. Maybe not how the owners or other editors view it, I really don't know. I may very well be the odd one out (happens often with me).
"I did miss your character prompts and would love to join in." I hope you will, Wanda. I plan to start back up in a couple of weeks, whether or not it is in WE. I don't want to claim this space for a project that members aren't interested in and, as you can see by the few responses here, they obviously aren't (any more). I would love to have you join - where ever I do it.
If you want to join Wee WE now, I'll post updates there as well.
As for honest critiquing, it's hard to come by on Gather. That's partly because people will not defend it when others act as though it's a dirty word or personal attack. ;-(
i've seen Rutabaga Casserole, which is what i immediately thought of when Time Heals used that phrase, and threw up a little in my mouth.
I agree with you also that there are still a few serious poets here on Gather, and hate that they must feel terrible if I don't accept their poetry on Tuesday - even though there are five other days they could submit it to WE, and a billion other poetry groups they could post it in on any day.
I'll explain this from my position. If I accept one poem and not nineteen others, first, I have to study those twenty poems and make a determination. And then I have to let the others know why I did not accept theirs. That’s a lot of work - which I would be willing to do if I had the support I need, or it would earn me the respect it deserves, or maybe even a few Gather points.
Unfortunately, that’s not the way it works. I know I am qualified to make those determinations but no one defends my position - not in the discussion on Tom’s thread where members argued that no one is capable of judging the quality of someone else’s work or determining where that work belongs - and not publicly in WE discussions. Gather has never taken a public stand for quality (except to say they want quality but will determine quality by the number of hits it draws), or a stand group owners regarding personal responsibility in choosing and using groups. So I don’t have a leg to stand on.
The way it works here, if I accept a few poems or personal essays because they do meet my ‘creative writing/fiction’ theme and reject the ones that meet neither my theme nor the posted group purpose and standards, there's a very good chance (like 100%) that someone (or two or five) will write articles and leave comments everywhere about how mean I am or how I favor friends or cater to cliques and cussers. There’s an equally good chance that another editor will post a forum in which those complainers can continue their trash talk.
My other choices are to leave things I don’t want to deal with for other editors, in which case I might see it again next week. Or to quietly reject without giving a reason, in which case I will probably see a bunch more the next week because as long as people don’t know they’re being rejected and why, they keep on posting the same things.
In the past, writers gave the following reasons for staying away from WE: “It’s mostly poetry.” “The writing is terrible.” “The group is full of people who gush undeserved praise for mediocre work.” “Editors post unoriginal content, don’t accept critique, and accept anything.” I didn't belong for those reasons. When given the opportunity, I hoped to change those things and make at least one day attractive to writers who cared about the art of writing as opposed to slapping words on the screen and hitting submit.
I chose a theme that would mix beginning and experienced writers, in an atmosphere that would be fun and encourage growth. I chose fiction because that’s where I am most comfortable and had the most enthusiasm. I hoped that even people who were not interested in fiction would get caught up in the spirit of “reaching” that the project definitely generated – and that spirit would spread through all writing on Gather.
I thought if I limited content on that day to what I know well, and what I could easily manage, I could guarantee what people could expect on that day.
I’ve always been a dreamer.
was that insult you rejected well written at least?
I have been working on your past exercises, right now, and have stayed away purposely from the dialogue exercise because, well, I am unsure how it is goign to look, I have written it a couple of different times but after reading Dixie's, mine looks like a first grader wrote it.....big sigh.....
I guess that my answer is that you seem to be doing all you can, and really I am not participating as much as I would like to because of "real life"
I look forward to reading tuesdays writings, but am way behind