I'm Pondering Health Care Reform And The Offing Of Old People

Just a 1? Really? I spelled all of the words right.

Here's a 10.

Thanks Matthew. I think it's at least worth a 7.3333.

If people disagree with you, especially politically, they rate a 1. I have learned to ignore ratings. They are meaningless.

I think most of my stuff rates about a 6. I like to think I'm above average. :)

Well Paul,

Some Republicans have a plan;

Center for Health Transformation

And as for the Idea that the Democrats/Obama want to kill off the old people....thats just ridicules.

It is however the legacy of state run health care that older citizens don't get the needed care and die sooned.....But I think that is more an across the board reality, it's just that in their fragil state of health the elderly can't stand the waits as well as younger patients.

That plan would be an absolute joke if it wasnt so bad...... they just dotn care how many peopls they let die, of course Repubs never care about anybody but the rich anyway

BTW,

Not my (1) I'm still deciding! LOL!

Dan I hope you will consider giving it at least a 7.3333

How bout them Republican ideas for improving our health care system over at Center for Health Transformation Paul?
They seem to being concentrating on real solutions rather than just piling on more restrictive governmental regulation.

Newt seems to be agreeing with Obama. Move to an electronic system, eliminate fraud, best practices? Has Newt been sleeping while Obama has been hammering these points?
Nice try slipping in the eliminate capital gains tax stuff again Newt.

"Has Newt been sleeping while Obama has been hammering these points?"

Has he? Obama I mean, mostly I've been hearing is his scare mongering on how important it is to pass this bill as quickly as possible! (we can't allow our reps a chance to read the thousand(s) of pages now can we?)

Heard a recording of him speaking to a blogger where when asked about the demise of private insurance carriers, Obama admitted he didn't know that much about the details of his plan.

Maybe you could enlighten us with some links to show us President Obama "hammering these points"?

Well here is just one Dan but I'm sure if you are interested you can find many, many more as I am sure you can google.
President Obama's speech to American Medical Association

Thanks Paul,
Certainly a long speech, I of course briefed over it concerning it's length.
I was glad to see him reference Newt Gingrich by name...So if the President is looking at Republicans ideas then I guess they must have some which are worthy of consideration, right?

Now all we need to do is the get President Obama and the Democrats to realize that our existing health care system can be changed to provide better coverage for all rather than having it ruined by turning it over to the government.

Didn't read much in there about the corruption and defrauding of the Medicare/ Medicaid system, but maybe he will talk about that when he is not trying to garner the support of a group who represents many of the doctors who maybe involved in such practices.

And speaking of the support of the Obama/Democrat government run health care bill by the AMA, seems many independent assn's around the country are criticizing them for their support.

GOP Doc Group Blasts AMA for Backing House Bill
Doctor Group Blasts AMA for Supporting House Democrats’ Health Care Bill
Alabama doctors group criticizes part of Obama health care proposal
"In a Tuesday letter, the Medical Association of the State of Alabama, or MASA, joined five other state medical societies in objecting to the so-called "public option" that would create agovernment-sponsored health insurance plan."

So it seems Paul,
In his speech Obama included a good portion of his scare mongering and then pointed to the fear mongering of the other side and how we should ignore it.......but not his, his is valid! LOL!
I'm also glad he didn't bring up the discrdited "50 million Americans uninsured because they can't afford it" argument, he would have looked silly.

So we have the Republicans saying we can make our existing system better with out the hugh costs brought about by government run health care, and we have Obama and the dEmocrats saying that no only the government can make the changes necessary! after all the government is so efficient and has gotten so many thing right in the past haven't they?

Dan: the government is so efficient and has gotten so many thing right in the past haven't they?

Yes they have. Thanks for noticing.

"Yes they have. Thanks for noticing."

LOL!

I guess when you have no effective argument....Trying to be 'cute' is as good as anything!

Dan I didn't notice that you were trying to be cute :-)

Paul,
I wasn't,

I actually provided some information to validate my argument, and that discounted your opinion that the Republicans don't have any ideas.

I looked at the Center for Health Transformation site a couple of weeks ago on the invitation of another Gather member. I saw no program, just a lot of criticisms of Democratic proposals. Maybe they've changed the content.

Nippy,
Not sure what kind of "program" you were looking for, My referencing the Center for Health Transformation site was to dispel the widely propagandized ideal that republicans have no ideas.
And as I previously stated the fact that President Obama mentioned Newt Gingrich and his ideas in his speech that in itself dispels that idea that the Republicans have no ideas.

However if you bother to investigate the Center for Health Transformation site a little further you will find many ideas to improve our current health care system. Some of those it appears the President appreciates.

Hmm...Like I said, they may have changed some of the content since my last look. What I saw was purely reactive. No ideas for a different approach, just criticisms of the Democratic proposals.

The frog speaks truth.

Nippy,
Repeating yourself doesn't change the content of the site.

My referencing the Center for Health Transformation site was to dispel the widely propagandized ideal that republicans have no ideas. And as I previously stated the fact that President Obama mentioned Newt Gingrich and his ideas in his speech that in itself dispels that idea that the Republicans have no ideas.

Name one.

Dan,

I followed your link and saw the six items. First one to "stop paying the crooks" is not new we are not supposed to be paying any "crooks" at the present time. Unless this is followed up with real investigation and enforcement, this is wasted ink.

And, what is a "Health based health system?" And how does it differ from a sickness based health system?

The last one, we can probably all agree on to promote innovation and research.

The one thing I didn't see here is a positive step to changing our system of paying for medical care to eliminate some of the problems.

I have very mixed feelings about the electronic records. My previous endocrinologist kept two computer systems in his office and I asked him why. His answer was "that is the only way I can guarantee your information is secure." The other network accessed the internet. Any record that is housed where it can be transmitted electronically is potentially corruptible and non-exclusionary. However, this might save some money and give people work putting it all into the system.

Guess he couldn't name even one good idea.

Health care is not a right - it's a good with a cost just like any other. It's high time we start treating it as such.

Costs would go down if we could clear out all the indigents from the emergency room who don't have an emergency, but who have a simple cold and have no means to pay for care. Many of these people are illegal immigrants, many are not. But the new legislation will make it a crime to NOT treat illegals on our tax dollar. How in the name of all that is good is that going to help keep costs down?

"Health care is not a right - it's a good with a cost just like any other. It's high time we start treating it as such."

YES!

When did it become a right? If so, then everyone has a right to free food, clothing, water, shelter... what a utopian dream.

Health care is not a right? Why not? Why can't it be? Why do people in other civilized countries regard it as such? So your right to life (where have I heard that expression before?) is dependent on you're bottom line?

Let me quote something Ron Paul said - he said it better than I could in this case. It's more concise than I would be if I tried to say it in my own words.

"Natural law states that people have rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. A good is something you work for and earn. It might be a need, like food, but more “goods” seem to be becoming “rights” in our culture, and this has troubling consequences. It might seem harmless enough to decide that people have a right to things like education, employment, housing or healthcare. But if we look a little further into the consequences, we can see that the workings of the community and economy are thrown wildly off balance when people accept those ideas.

First of all, other people must pay for things like healthcare. Those people have bills to pay and families to support, just as you do. If there is a “right” to healthcare, you must force the providers of those goods, or others, to serve you.

Obviously, if healthcare providers were suddenly considered outright slaves to healthcare consumers, our medical schools would quickly empty. As the government continues to convince us that healthcare is a right instead of a good, it also very generously agrees to step in as middle man. Politicians can be very good at making it sound as if healthcare will be free for everybody. Nothing could be further from the truth. The administration doesn’t want you to think too much about how hospitals will be funded, or how you will somehow get something for nothing in the healthcare arena. We are asked to just trust the politicians. Somehow it will all work out.
Universal Healthcare never quite works out the way the people are led to believe before implementing it. Citizens in countries with nationalized healthcare never would have accepted this system had they known upfront about the rationing of care and the long lines.

As bureaucrats take over medicine, costs go up and quality goes down because doctors spend more and more of their time on paperwork and less time helping patients. As costs skyrocket, as they always do when inefficient bureaucrats take the reins, government will need to confiscate more and more money from an already foundering economy to somehow pay the bills. As we have seen many times, the more money and power that government has, the more power it will abuse. The frightening aspect of all this is that cutting costs, which they will inevitably do, could very well mean denying vital services. And since participation will be mandatory, no legal alternatives will be available.

The government will be paying the bills, forcing doctors and hospitals to dance more and more to the government’s tune. Having to subject our health to this bureaucratic insanity and mismanagement is possibly the biggest danger we face. The great irony is that in turning the good of healthcare into a right, your life and liberty are put in jeopardy. "

Hope that helps.

Doesn't really help.
Here's a few reasons why
1. The President has not been proposing a single payer system that Ron is arguing against, rather a public option in addition to the private option you already have.
2. No point in telling me how much Canadians hate their health care system because the Canadians I know say they don't and I don't think Canadians have been making a run on our borders.
3. My son's friend is starting medical school in the fall. He says he wants to heal people. I haven't heard him say I want to provide an expensive good.
4. Did you go to public school? Do you pay a private security firm or rely on the services of your local police? If your house catches fire will you have to pay someone to put it out? What are the troubling consequences of public education, police and fire service, etc. that Ron has warned of?

1. Yeah, and who is going to be able to compete fairly with the federal government? They'll drive the private providers out of business because they get to make the rules.
2. I don't care about Canada. I didn't bring it up and won't. They can do whatever they want.
3. Sure, but is the average person going to go through 12 years of Med school, then residency, racking up student loans out the wazoo, for a job paying $40K a year? How about being on call 24/7, starting out in high stress emergency rooms, etc etc. That's why I didn't go into medicine despite being qualified coming out of high school.

When doctors are government employees, you can bet their pay will go WAY down, and as it does, you'll see fewer and fewer of our best and brightest going down that road. And the good foreign doctors that come here for the big money will stop too. They'll just go into law instead. Just what this country needs, even MORE lawyers, right? Meanwhile the quality of our medical profession will decrease.
4. Straw man arguments using the "slippery slope" fallacy I learned in an intro Philosophy class. We're arguing socialized medicine here, not socialized police and fire. Also note that those functions are primarily performed by local government, not the feds. I challenge you to name one thing the Feds have gotten involved with that hasn't been completely inefficiently run.

Tad, regarding your response to #4,
Take Intro to Philosophy Two.

Regarding #3
I'm a government employee. My pay goes up and up. I have great health insurance too.

"I challenge you to name one thing the Feds have gotten involved with that hasn't been completely inefficiently run."

PBS, NPR, The Smithsonian, Saving Banks (done since the Great Depression), Roads and bridges. The mail. War (but not when Bush W does it). Disaster relief (but not when Bush W does it). Heck, anything the Republicans don't run.

Now that's a list I can't argue with.

If Italy can do universal health care, we can. They change governments every two weeks (it seems sometimes) and they can still care for their own population AND all the immigrants flooding in from Africa.

PBS gets sponsorships and donations.

Can't comment on NPR, don't know anything about it.

The Smithsonian, sure I'll give you that one. But does that really qualify them to take on 20%+ of our economy?

I hope you're kidding about the roads/bridges thing. Most of the roads in this nation are local responsibilities. And remember that bridge in Minnesota last year?

The mail - yeah that one's reasonable. I'm in favor of the fed's doing the post office.

War and disaster relief, I don't think we have done all that well really, but to each their own I guess.

One thing I am noticing though, is that the few things they've handled well are things the Constitution gives them the authority to do...

Italy, and most of the rest of Western Europe, seem to have learned the mistakes of their democratic socialist tendencies for the last 50+ years and are almost unanimously electing leadership on the right because they understand that their huge socialist state structures are killing growth and contributing to their loss of competitive advantage to China and India.

Do we really need to repeat their mistakes? And do you really want to have socialized medicine just because the Italians did it? Just because they've done it doesn't make it a good idea.

We have the best health care system in the world, that's why people always come here from abroad for care. You don't hear of any Americans coming to other countries specifically for health care, do you? We're also the place that develops the lion's share of new drugs, because pharmaceutical companies here know they'll be rewarded for their (VERY expensive) research efforts with profits.

The answer to controlling costs is by limiting most kinds of care to those who have an ability to pay. Again, health care is NOT a right.

Tad: And do you really want to have socialized medicine just because the Italians did it? Just because they've done it doesn't make it a good idea.

Spaghetti was a good idea.

Tad:The answer to controlling costs is by limiting most kinds of care to those who have an ability to pay.

Ok, sure. Take the needy, disabled, mentally ill- throw 'em over a cliff. We'll create a master race! Heil!
Seriously dude, you have issues.

Oh, and NASA, and Disease control, and air traffic controllers, too.

Incorrectly comparing my views to Nazi-ism is not constructive. I have no "master race" intentions and so on, nor do I have any interest in "throwing anyone over a cliff" I just don't see government as the answer here. Many churches and other charities run free or very-low cost health clinics. More would if not for the mountains of government regulations in place for such.

Oh, and yes, I'm a big fan of spaghetti - all pastas for that matter. :)

"Health care is not a right - it's a good with a cost just like any other. It's high time we start treating it as such."

OK, this is your premise. Of course the market place is one of many ways of allocating scarce resources. It makes more sense for some than others.

"Costs would go down if we could clear out all the indigents from the emergency room who don't have an emergency, but who have a simple cold and have no means to pay for care."

Doesn't follow from your premise but might be true.

" Many of these people are illegal immigrants, many are not."
Is this relevant to the discussion at all?

" But the new legislation will make it a crime to NOT treat illegals on our tax dollar. How in the name of all that is good is that going to help keep costs down?"

I don't think that keeping costs down is the only reason for changing the way we pay for health care. I don't think the president or the supporters of the current plan think so either. I think you could argue that shifting non-emergency acute treatment to clinics rather than fully equipped emergency rooms would save money. Of course we could save even more if people were required to pay up front. :)

I am a veteran and use the VA for health care.... and it sucks big time. I also pay for private insurance to send my family to. I don't have an option to send my family to the VA. At first I was upset that I couldn't get them seen too, but now that I have stood in long lines and had shoddy care, i am happy that I send my wife and children to private hospitals through our insurance plan.

Oh and I had a kidney transplant recently. I had the option of having it done through the VA.... you better believe I paid for the Co-pay and got it done at a private hospital! I'm already scared enough to handle my follow up care with the VA, the transplant was out of the question.

"We'll create a master race! Heil!"

Typical BDL response you don't agree with me...You're a FASCIST! Thanks for not disappointing Paul!

You're welcome Dan. What is BDL?

BDL = Brain Dead Liberal = A liberal who's bias/hate is so great that it is impossible for them to see any position outside of their own.

I see. Typical name calling.

Nope Paul,
An honest classification;
I know of many liberals/Democrats on Gather who do not fit into this group.

The use of Nazi-Fascism terminology against another poster, gains one immediate entry into the fold of Brain Dead Liberals.

Dan: The use of Nazi-Fascism terminology against another poster, gains one immediate entry into the fold of Brain Dead Liberals.

Do I get a membership card? Is there a secret handshake?

Well Paul,
There is no membership card that I am aware of and since I am not a member I am not privy to the secret handshake!
LOL!

But I'm sure you are going to be a proud addition to the membership.

Yes, Tad. I've known several who have gone out of country for health care. They couldn't afford it here. I don't know of a country that is planning to eliminate their system and install the American pay for service plan. If you do, which ones?

They've recently been covering the many occurances of Americans going to India for impotant sugeries that they could otherwise not afford to get here. The package included the two week stay at a luxery hotel, transportation, and food, along with a little tourism to boot, I think. I think it was covered by Dr Gupta, on CNN.

I know many Americans who go to Mexico for surgeries, and dental work. All have great experiences.

Jason, My grandson was born prematuraly, emergancy C-0Section due to my daughter hemorraging. The hospital and doctors were great. Saved both my daughter and grandsons lives. It was touch and go for awhile for my grandson, but they worked very closely with him. He is now 14 years old, and in perfect health, thanks to that V.A. Hospital in San Antonio, Texas.

they privatized prisons
they privatized schools
they wanted to privatize social security

our health should not be connected to someone's profit

They seem to be telling me that Paris Hilton and Billy Ray Cyrus deserve much better health care than you and I do Fred. Caviar and antibiotics. Go figure.

NS
very sad

What the heck were the Dems watching Soylent Green for, for their Great Society ideas. That's a Chuck movie ... and he plays with the NRA.

Yikes? You mean it really is people?!!!!

When they say, "Tastes like pork."

You say, "Yeah, right."

LOL. I'll have to remember that.

I salute you for this post.

Thank you. And I salute you for saluting me.

I heard that there was a provision in the bill to provide free cigarettes and booze to seniors to speed things along. Seniors also have been exempted from wearing seat belts and texting while driving!

The Republicans are opposed to the provision. They favor providing federal tax credits for seniors for the purchase of tobacco and alcohol to encourage a market base stimulus.

Those republicans are always thinking. :-)

Frankly, as I look forward about six inches to old age, I'd love a government program that would shorten my golden years, especially if it featured sex and drugs. Even more so if treason were added to the mix.

Old people? Who needs old people? I still have 20-30 years before I'm considered old right? Unless they are lowering the elderly age to 30, I'll be fine.

For those of you with no humor, I was joking... 30 is elderly already.. heh

Education is universal and look how well they are being run now? They are supposed to be run by the state, but teachers are getting furloughed left and right and fired. If I have to think of something to compare Universal health care to, it is education and Education is much better in the private sector of America.

Private doesn't always mean better. We have fundamentalist Christian schools in my state that operate without being accredited. My sister investigated one and was shocked at the curriculum. These kids would kick butt at Bible Jeopardy but they're not going to be able to handle the ACT or SAT.

Great article, Paul!

Thank you Dorothy.

I like how you call her "the neighbor lady." Hehehe.

Perfect Solution to Senior Health Care

While discussing the upcoming Universal Health Care Program with a friend the other day, I think we have found the plan we can all get behind! I am sure you have heard the ideas that if you ’re a senior you need to suck it up and give up the idea that you need any health care.

A new hip? Unheard of. We simply can't afford to take care of you anymore. You don't need any medications for your high blood pressure, diabetes, heart problems, etc.

Lets take care of the young people.
After all, they will be ruling the world very soon.

So here is the solution.

When you turn 70, you get a gun and 4 bullets.

You are allowed to shoot 2 senators and 2 representatives.

Of course, you will be sent to prison where you will get 3 meals a day, a roof over your head and all the health care you need! New teeth, great! Need glasses, no problem. New hip,knee, kidney, lung, heart? Well bring it on. And who will be paying for all of this. The same government that just told you that you are too old for healthcare. And, since you are a prisoner, you don't have to pay any income tax.

I really think we have found a Perfect Solution!


ps Good thing their are so many gray hairs ---- because some of us have no
sense of aim. It might take most of us to get those wily buggers.

You are right on. I am old and my Medicacare doesn't pay for all I need to keep alive. I have been watching how our prisions take care of their people and believe when my medical runs out I will do something to get me inside that motel. If my wife goes ahead of me, I will have to learn how to cook my food and take care of me. She has been doing it for 56 years and I am just like a dog because when she calls me I get out of my easy chair by the TV and go into the kitchen and look at my special corner where she puts my food. Pick it up and carry it into my chair where I watch TV and eat. I believe that is being spoiled but she doesn't want us to sit on our confortable chairs in the kitchen and eat together. Would rather we watch our TVs and be quiet so she can hear.

Do you suppose the prision would feed me in a special spot like a dog, and let me watch the news on TV while I am eating? I am concerned because at my age the prision is okay, but how can I eat without someone putting my food at my special spot?

I would not be counting on that soecial spot.

Now that California has a so-called budget for the year that is almost over, We will soon have an early release flow to the balance. Wonder what types of jobs will not be waiting for them.

I am leaning toward legalizing drugs - so they can be over-regulated and deeply taxed. Now that would generate revenue, create jobs and keep the weak on foggy dreams.

Maybe President Obama should just take a page out of the Bush/Cheney playbook. Just take a month off and let the goof balls blow off their talk radio/Faux news steam. Then he can come back, sweep up the ashes of the fRight wingnuts and get ON with making the changes that are long past DUE to be made. The GOP is good at tearing things down but hasn't built up anything worthwhile in a generation!

As a no drug person, no drinking anymore, no smoking anymore, and taking everything one day at a time, I believe we should capture all the drugs we can on the Mexican boarder, and take it to our liquor stores for resale with all money used for state projects the people need. I also believe we shoulld buy up all the drugs we can from the drug countries and resale it anywhere we can including the drug producing countries.

If you are as old as me, you would have seen that stopping drinking didn't work. the users just went under cover and the crime people took over and made millions. It is a free country and we old people need our drugs and medical procedures so let's take all the money away from the users and give it to me. I will use it like Obama said he would. Soon everyone would be happy living on drug money.

Don't mind Tad. He's a direct descendant of the union between Marie Antionette and Mr. Scrooge.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha - I apologize for not reading all the comments following your post but I know Gather and all the stupid crap that is spread around here on a daily basis. I just wanted YOU to know I think I love you. You made me laugh.

Thank you for commenting on my photo and I'm going to ask for a connection because I would like to keep up with your ponderings

Thank you for reading and I welcome the connection.

"You make me laugh, I kill you last." Pancho Villa to a captured Federale

Pancho Villa's descendants are having the last laugh. Suggest you all learn Spanish.

The Republicans prefer the free enterprise death panels we now have in each insurance company. They only cost 20% of our health care dollar. Cheap, right?

They apparently enjoy paying high premiums as well.

Forget about seniors...they're going to be dumping preliminary diagnostic care to all female booby feelers before the age of 50 too. Wonder how many of the women who think Obamacare is so wonderful will be liking it when they can't get mammograms approved in their plans before it's too late.

I'm over 50, and female. I've never had a mammgram in my life. I wonder why that is?

Neither have I, but I am not in favor of government deciding who will and who will not be eligible for such procedures. Why? It's for the same reason that the elderly will be denied some care. Because there's a never ending supply of of money, of course.

Health Care is a basic right for all citizens that should be free on the point of delivery paid for by taxes. Thank God that I live in England.

Republican politicians tells us that our friends across the ocean are very unhappy with their free health care but I haven't ran across anyone that would confirm that.