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by Spartan *
Member since:
November 7, 2008

Dispelling Falsehoods About Health Care

July 27, 2009 12:16 PM EDT (Updated: July 30, 2009 10:16 AM EDT)
views: 369 | comments: 177

From today's Kansas City Star...(posted here with permission)

No one said fixing health care in America would be easy.

The problem is enormous in scope and at the same time intensely personal. The nation’s economy, the federal deficit, state budgets and employers’ payrolls are all tied up in the health care system — not to mention Jane Doe’s timetable for retirement and John Doe’s latest blood pressure reading.

So wrangling on the part of Congress is to be expected.

Fortunately, reasonable people from different political camps agree on the pillars of reform: All Americans should have affordable access to care; costs must be controlled; and medicine must shift from a model that pays for procedures to one that rewards results.

As the debate wears on, however, a number of falsehoods stand in the way of achieving those goals. Here are a few:

America has the best health care in the world. Why change?

Actually, the U.S. has the most expensive health care system on the planet, and outcomes here are inferior to those of nearly all other modern nations.

The death rate among newborns here is among the highest of industrialized nations. Americans are more likely to suffer from chronic diseases such as diabetes. A study that rated 19 relatively prosperous nations on their effectiveness in curbing deaths from preventable diseases put the United States at the very bottom.

Americans have access to care now — even if they have to use the emergency room.

Emergency room access is not comprehensive health care. Staffs can’t provide the follow-up care that will prevent a crisis from reoccurring. And the costs of treating the uninsured are passed along to everyone else.

And access to care is increasingly expensive for everyone. The average employee health insurance premium is rising nearly eight times faster than income. One in four of the Americans who participated in a survey by the Kaiser Family Foundation earlier this year said they put off getting health care services because they couldn’t afford them. One in six reported cutting pills in half or skipping doses to make their prescriptions last longer.

President Obama wants to deny Americans the right to choose the treatment that’s best for them.

First of all, employers and insurers already separate patients from physicians and treatment options. Care already is “rationed.”

Any viable reform plan must set up a way to evaluate the effectiveness of treatments and procedures. In many cases, lower-cost treatments and medications work better than more expensive brands.

Citizens have a right to opt for more expensive options if they choose. But it is unreasonable to expect the health care system to pay for a gold-plated procedure if a less expensive avenue is available.

We can’t afford to reform health care.

We can’t afford not to. Medical costs account for one-sixth of domestic spending and are headed upward. They are handcuffing families and workers, and strangling federal and state governments.

Plans being considered by Congress present daunting up-front costs. But reform, done the right way, will mean savings for families and businesses — money that can be pumped into the economy.

Unfortunately, some Republicans seem content to stymie any Democratic plan on health care without putting forth any measures of their own.

“Why start diverting attention from this really bad piece of work (the Democrats’ plan)?” U.S. Rep. Roy Blunt of Missouri asked last week, when suggesting GOP House members may not propose a health care bill.

Sorry, but Republicans don’t get off that easily. The default plan is the status quo, which, as Obama noted last week, is “guaranteed to double your premiums, cause more Americans to lose their coverage and create larger budget deficits over the next 10 years.”

Republican politicians must stop promoting the greatest myth of all: That somehow we will stumble into a system in which all Americans can have all the services they want, and no one will have to pay for it.

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Comments: 177 ( 6 removed by Spartan * )

Sheryl O. Jul 27, 2009, 12:26pm EDT
Did you see Fareed Zakaria's GPS this weekend? He tried to dispel these lies, too. He cited top Republicans on tape spouting these lies, and asked them why they would believe one or two anecdotal stories from 'friends of friends' rather than listen to the majority of the American people. It was great. I love Zakaria.
Debra C. Jul 27, 2009, 3:04pm EDT
Zakaria's program Sunday was very good. Glad you mentioned it.
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Peter Joseph Swanson Jul 27, 2009, 12:27pm EDT
Thank you for posting this !!!
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Ron B. Jul 27, 2009, 12:34pm EDT
The myth of free market gave Wall St. credit default swaps which it used without the hassle of having to have the funds to back up their guarantees. Banks have trillions of dollars worth of CDS or "toxic assets", the ultimate oxymoron, on their books and much of the bailout has been used to clear just a part of the CDS madness.
Free markets also mean a health care system dominated by seven major insurance companies that are spending almost two million dollars a day to influence congress to maintain the status quo. Quality health care has become a luxury that fewer and fewer citizens can afford.
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Kathryn E. Jul 27, 2009, 12:45pm EDT
This is one huge reason (and credit default swaps and the entire last few years here) that I HATE Capitalism. My family was telling me that in Ontario they can get half a dozen or a dozen tests...etc...they are TAXED but...people can buy a house for not very much, get health care...get an education for not very much....


and none of this can happen here for NOT VERY MUCH MONEY.
Larry M. Jul 27, 2009, 4:10pm EDT
Linda, when and where has there ever been a free market since history began? (I don't count hunting and gathering societies, just agricultural and industrial societies.) I say that the nature of our money prevents us from ever being able to have a free market.

My solution does provide a society in which all relationships are voluntary, all property is private (and individually owned), and the government runs the military and not much else.

Please give it a look at www.nopom.info. It is popular with those libertarians who have read it.
Sandy (Site Psychic™) Knauer Jul 27, 2009, 7:28pm EDT
When someone has to ask a question of herself in order to spew the answer, you know it's a question she thinks no reasonable person would ask and an answer she's sure no one wants to hear.
Wil B. Jul 27, 2009, 11:03pm EDT
"Those who advocate for capitalism, advocate for a society where all relationships are voluntary."

Then they waste their time advocating for something that is an impossibility. Which probably explains why there has never been a human society based on pure, unadulterated, free-market capitalism.

A society where all relationships are voluntary might be a nice idea, but it is completely incompatible with the realities of human biology.
Wil B. Jul 27, 2009, 11:58pm EDT
"You are right Will - there never was and never will be - at least not in these times and not as long as we have a corrupt govt. issuing mandates and requlations to deliberately squash it."

Governments, corrupt or otherwise, have nothing to do with it, Linda. It's biology, plain and simple.

"However, I can assure you I know many people who do business exactly that way, and I am involved in with several of them."

Regardless of how you or these people you're involved with "do business", your fundamental existence as a human isn't based voluntary relationships. Nature simply doesn't work that way.
Wil B. Jul 28, 2009, 12:44am EDT
I have no idea what you mean by that, or how you intend it to be relevant to the discussion at hand.

You've claimed that you advocate for a society where all relationships are voluntary. Are you claiming that such a society can exist, or do you recognize that such a society is impossible?

Do you have children, Linda? Or parents?
Kathy W. Jul 28, 2009, 12:56am EDT
Linda...
Oh...well, actually, we had free capitalism once...and it ended up being Robber Barons vs. citizens--remember that, in history class? How the poor were exploited by the uber rich? At least, until we overthrew their big empires with unions, and citizen's rights, market regulation and oversight.
End game.
Wilka
Spartan * Jul 28, 2009, 1:09am EDT
Might I suggest viewing "There Will Be Blood"? That gives a great look at greed and pure capitalism.
Ron (in complete sheeple overload) W. Jul 28, 2009, 8:52pm EDT
Hey, we don't need to have pure evil to see that the evil we have had is bad, and more would be so much worse...
Wil B. Jul 28, 2009, 9:27pm EDT
"Since we've never had pure capitalism, I would be very skeptical. "

Skeptical that "pure capitalism" could ever exist here in the real world? You should be. Because it can't. Because there is no way for a human society to exist where all relationships are voluntary.
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Kathryn E. Jul 27, 2009, 12:46pm EDT
Day 1 1620: NO ONE IS GOING TO TELL US HOW TO WORSHIP.

Day 2: NO ONE IS GOING TO TAX US WITHOUT REPRESENTATION. THROW OVER THE TEA.

Our dislike of government so-called interference goes WAY back to the beginning, versus Canada, UK, Germany, France and Sweden's simple desire to TAKE CARE OF ITS CITIZENS and LEGAL RESIDENTS.
Kim J. Jul 28, 2009, 12:58am EDT
But it wasn't as simple as Taxation without Representation. It was because the East India Company and Englandwere in bed together and although East India didn't have to pay taxes, anyone else trying to make a business of tea had high taxes to pay, if they were allowed to compete!
Kim J. Jul 28, 2009, 9:26pm EDT
No, Linda, a lot to do with capitalism--any way "free Market" capitalism.
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Spencer T. Jul 27, 2009, 12:53pm EDT
I've been in a shake my head mode recently listening to all the illegitimate excuses why we should not change health care in America. Many of the expressed fears of what might come are already here but some apposed can't see it.

Thanks Spartan.
Spartan * Jul 27, 2009, 1:08pm EDT
Spencer...I find it QUITE telling about republicans and their "I Support Veterans" yellow ribbons along with talking about how GREAT we treat our Veterans....Well...VA Health Care IS Socialized medicine! IF it is "good enough" for our Veterans then it should be good enough for everyone! Why isn't anyone asking THAT question to the republicans! Answer? CORPORATE CONTROLLED MEDIA!
Spartan * Jul 28, 2009, 12:32am EDT
Ron Paul would throw this nation into chaos. He's just another Texas Fruit Loop!
Ron (in complete sheeple overload) W. Jul 28, 2009, 8:59pm EDT
Spartan, my man, did you see Stewart make a monkey out of Bill Kristol on the daily show over the VA health care system? It was glorious.
Sandy (Site Psychic™) Knauer Jul 30, 2009, 6:28pm EDT
Oh, Ron. That was one of my all time favorite television moments. Priceless!

Spencer says: "I've been in a shake my head mode recently listening to all the illegitimate excuses why we should not change health care in America." What could be a priceless, laughable truth in this, if so many lives weren't depending on the right outcome, is that the very people who are spewing the illegitimate excuses are the same ones who used to whine and complain about how the insurance companies abused everyone and malpractice put the cost of medicine out of reach.
Spartan * Jul 30, 2009, 6:36pm EDT
It truly WAS one of the best moments on television. The Insurance Corp. Lackeys will claim Jon Stewart is just a "comedian" to discredit him. But, he does a better job of cutting through the chaff in order to get to the REAL truth than anybody I know of right now!
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Lisa Frost Jul 27, 2009, 1:12pm EDT
Thanks for putting up GOOD information. I have seen so many spouting about protecting the repulic lately that I could puke. They are fighting to protect greed and capitalism. If that is all there is to their view of a Republic, I feel sorry for them.
Spartan * Jul 27, 2009, 1:15pm EDT
LIsa....follow the link provided by Cindy Price above...you will get a GOOD dose of CORPORATE propaganda! Enough to make any thinking individual sick!
Lisa Frost Jul 27, 2009, 1:20pm EDT
I have seen enough of that BS to last me a lifetime. I have been on medicaid, a government medical program, and had no problems, and a HELL of a lot less than i have had even with my GOOD FEDERAL INSURANCE. I can only imagine how much worse it is for those who have to argue with regular insurance policies.
Johnice R. Jul 27, 2009, 3:48pm EDT
Dido!
Actually, I have had so much I cannot view the arguments as a diversion from my local issues. I am with you Lisa, Medicaid works well for the patient (I would really like more coverage for eye and dental) it is somewhat like Bing from Microsoft: the one thing they did really well, thus far!

Only one argument against, they do not pay fast enough to suit all Doctors which limit’s the pool of Doctors who have offices close to home. Now this may not occur in every local yet, given the massive numbers of Doctors, from primary care to all specialists in the greater Boston area not nearly enough accept Medicaid.
Lisa Frost Jul 27, 2009, 4:20pm EDT
In the Louisville/Southern Indiana Region, many doctors had to limit the number of medicaid patients because of slow payment. However, my doctor automatically kept treating me because I was his patient first. There are good doctors that are still accepting medicaid patients though.
Kim J. Jul 28, 2009, 1:03am EDT
But the reason medicaid doesn't pay fast is because we don't want to fund it--what pay for other's care?!?!??!?
Same with Medicare--its time to start making all pay the same payroll taxes, etc. I pay payroll taxes on all of my money--and that's the way it should be for all, no caps!
Also get rid of shrub's tax cuts NOW--there's the money to pay for it, well at least until the CEO's quit robbing the companies blind....or do you think some of these idjits need to make $1.2 billion annually?
Lisa Frost Jul 28, 2009, 11:17am EDT
Yes, Kim, I wish i were cold hearted enough not to give a damn about anyone or anything but making money like many successful corporations, then I could step on anybody and not care. Obviously, Linda has this down pat.
Lisa Frost Jul 28, 2009, 11:34am EDT
I have had to face those questions. My family is what makes me happy. Making millions means little. I always just wanted to earn enough to take care of my family. I made sure money went to help others when I made good money as a machine operator for the US Dept of Commerce. I busted my tail to do the best job I could do, because I took pride in my work, and yes, enjoyed it, if not always the change in management. When I became ill, it was because I was a Federal Employee that I have made it as far as I have. Had I been working for most corporations, they would have found a way to fire me to save themselves money since I had been there long enough to retire through disability. Your job explains a lot to me!
Kathy W. Jul 28, 2009, 8:36pm EDT
Yes, Lisa. Linda's ten-year tenure in working for the HMO/PPO really does say something. Doesn't it?

Linda, Since your on the inside of the rich/fat pool: Is it really true that most HMO/PPO claims are denied 3 times by the service rep and then by the manager, and real people only get their claims paid after the 7th to 10th argument with HMOs and PPOs?
Always wondered why you sounded so authoritarian and despotic.
Wilka
Ron (in complete sheeple overload) W. Jul 28, 2009, 9:07pm EDT
Sounds like someone doesn't want to see their personal gravy train ended for the betterment of all...
sharon SugarMomma is a wise woman, Jul 28, 2009, 9:12pm EDT
I see Linda is one of the feeders and well paid flunkies of the Health Insurance bloodsuckers.

Explains a lot.
Ron (in complete sheeple overload) W. Jul 28, 2009, 9:40pm EDT
Linda, the expose of the Insurance industry provided by various insiders has established that what Kathy has said is the norm, not the exception, and that you might have a conflict of interest here is more than obvious.
Ron (in complete sheeple overload) W. Jul 29, 2009, 2:34am EDT
Well, Linda, other than those that have come forward with their stories, and significantly, no longer have a self interest in the industry, I also have personal experience, and you are the one that is wrong. Who am I going to believe, someone protecting their own interests (you), or someone with no personal interest of their own, and a desire to right this wrong? Not a hard choice, sorry.
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Debra (Gather SiteWarrior Extraordinaire) Jul 27, 2009, 1:40pm EDT
I can't wait for the dingbats to show up and spew rhetoric all over this fine article. *giggle

Kathy W. Jul 28, 2009, 8:36pm EDT
Wait no longer. She's here.
Charles Temm JR Jul 29, 2009, 4:53pm EDT
There's nothing like having to agree with someone so not to be labeled a dingbat, just makes the whole idea of debate a bit absurd really.
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Peter Joseph Swanson Jul 27, 2009, 3:16pm EDT
And we're being told that in this new bill you will be euthanized, or will be counseled to encourage you to commit suicide (depending on who's spreading the rumors) if you get old.
Sheryl O. Jul 27, 2009, 3:41pm EDT
I hate to tell people (*Shhhhhhhhhhhhh*), but right now in our current 'perfect' health system, elderly people are denied procedures because they are simply too old or not in good enough health to have them done. Some, actually, have a good chance of never making it through surgery. My FIL was 'denied' an operation that would have prolonged his life in one aspect - problem was that he never would have been able to be taken off the respirator following surgery because of the health of his lungs.

LIES, LIES, LIES....Everybody lying.
Johnice R. Jul 27, 2009, 4:08pm EDT
Not everyone lies. No system is perfect; I know how lucky I am to reside in the Greater Boston area where Health Care is ubiquitous. If you have a doctor and go to regular checkups, do not smoke, drink alcohol to excess and eat non- processed and artificially sweetened foods, you can live a comfortable life.

The Sydney Farber Cancer Center and the Jocelyn Diabetes Center are famous and well connected with local affiliate teaching Hospitals. We have some of the most well known Hematologists, Oncologists, Orthopedic and Pediatric surgeons and specialists in the Country--California does a great job in holding great Doctors also. Health is relative and quality of life as well, some folks just want to live at any cost, while others are not happy living a dependency bedridden life supported existence.

To each their own, the facts are: Health Insurance is too expensive for individuals and businesses to make good use of. Far too many folks do not qualify for Health Insurance at any rate because of pre-exiting conditions. I have said this before and it bears repeating: life is a pre-existing condition then you get sick.
Kathy W. Jul 28, 2009, 1:31am EDT
Johnice, ever think that profit should be removed from Health Insurance?
I think of it all the time...
The whole concept of health insurance is that all pay for some. We did not sign up to give the board of directors obscene bonuses on denied claim profits...while people go without treatment.
Something in that set up smells pretty fishy to me.
(And I don't like fish!)
Wilka
Ron (in complete sheeple overload) W. Jul 28, 2009, 9:45pm EDT
"but one day, we producers will quit producing and then what will you all do?"

Hey, hit the door running, and make way for someone with some ethics to fill your slot. Go on, don't go away mad, but just go away... Are you really thinking we are all that stupid to beg the people that feed on our carrion to stay, and keep on doing what they do? Someone will always fill the open slots, and generally, I like the odds they may be a little less morally bankrupt, if you "producers" all leave. Need someone to help you pack?
Lisa Frost Jul 29, 2009, 4:07am EDT
"Oh my gosh, those are the dumbest remarks I've read in a long time."

Gee, Linda, did you finally start reading what you have been posting?
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The original comment in this thread has been deleted by its author.
Spartan * Jul 28, 2009, 12:39am EDT
Once again, a GROSS distortion of reality, Linda! Isn't there a group for here on Gather for ALL of you tin foil hat wearing folks. Why do you feel compelled to share your...ummm...."ideas" on my posts?
Kathy W. Jul 28, 2009, 8:39pm EDT
Linda, don't you work for the group you are currently disrespecting?

And, No. We don't need profit in health care. Or, if we're going to allow it, we need it marginalized. 10% profit, max.

There! I've said it.
Bring it on!
Wilka
Ron (in complete sheeple overload) W. Jul 28, 2009, 9:12pm EDT
"They" was the Nixon White House. From the white house tapes -

" John D. Ehrlichman: “On the … on the health business …”

President Nixon: “Yeah.”

Ehrlichman: “… we have now narrowed down the vice president’s problems on this thing to one issue and that is whether we should include these health maintenance organizations like Edgar Kaiser’s Permanente thing. The vice president just cannot see it. We tried 15 ways from Friday to explain it to him and then help him to understand it. He finally says, ‘Well, I don’t think they’ll work, but if the President thinks it’s a good idea, I’ll support him a hundred percent.’”

President Nixon: “Well, what’s … what’s the judgment?”

Ehrlichman: “Well, everybody else’s judgment very strongly is that we go with it.”

President Nixon: “All right.”

Ehrlichman: “And, uh, uh, he’s the one holdout that we have in the whole office.”

President Nixon: “Say that I … I … I’d tell him I have doubts about it, but I think that it’s, uh, now let me ask you, now you give me your judgment. You know I’m not to keen on any of these damn medical programs.”

Ehrlichman: “This, uh, let me, let me tell you how I am …”

President Nixon: [Unclear.]

Ehrlichman: “This … this is a …”

President Nixon: “I don’t [unclear] …”

Ehrlichman: “… private enterprise one.”

President Nixon: “Well, that appeals to me.”

Ehrlichman: “Edgar Kaiser is running his Permanente deal for profit. And the reason that he can … the reason he can do it … I had Edgar Kaiser come in … talk to me about this and I went into it in some depth. All the incentives are toward less medical care, because …”

President Nixon: [Unclear.]

Ehrlichman: “… the less care they give them, the more money they make.”

President Nixon: “Fine.” [Unclear.]

Ehrlichman: [Unclear] “… and the incentives run the right way.”

President Nixon: “Not bad.”"
Charles Temm JR Jul 27, 2009, 4:32pm EDT
The rub remains that people don't agree on the necessity of "reform" as currently being batted around and there is no concrete evidence to the contrary.

People are PO'd about costs and that is a no brainer. Even in systems like Canada, held up as a model for what some want here in the US, price increases are not far behind ours (above official inflation rates) and its crippling the different provinces as it eats up more of their budgets than forecasted.

What people are not ready to do is entrust the government with a replacement of the current system. The government that has grossly underestimated every one of it's social programs for decades has little trust from many people. This rush to come up with a package quickly is scaring others too.

At a time of fiscal meltdown, a massive package that according to the CBO will fall far short of announced goals may or may not pass. What it will not have is bi-partisan support and is looking likely to divide even the Administration's party. At a minimum, an issue by issue approach will garner more support as the current one is not doing.
Spartan * Jul 27, 2009, 7:57pm EDT
"The rub remains that people don't agree on the necessity of "reform"

Over 70% of Americans DO seem to agree on that necessity, Charles.
Kathy W. Jul 28, 2009, 1:29am EDT
Charles, the government will not be performing your upper GI (or lower GI for that matter.) Your doctors will still provide your care.

Here's my quote for you today: "Doing the same thing, over and over, and expecting a different result?
(Go 'head...finish the quote...)

It isn't working. It is broken. Fix it.
(Pretty freakin simple, huh?)
Wilka
Charles Temm JR Jul 28, 2009, 3:37pm EDT
Spartan, how does one come up with this magic number of 70% supporting said reform? Honestly now, have some 210+ million people said yes on this? No, of course not. Both sides are commissioning polls and depending on those who contact their politicians on the issue. It is impossible to say with any certainty just how many support this or any other plan that will change things so drastically. Lord knows that even if some support major change and some do, how many support a plan that hasn't even been read by those going to vote on it? Never mind one with such fuzzy math and conflicting ideas (government to determine quality for bundled caregiver payments?)

Kathy W, by the estimates (grossly exaggerated but still) of uninsured by ObamaCare supporters, over 80% of the nation has medical insurance-the majority with private companies. Details of this plan already say it won't cover more than a third of the supposedly uninsured and it will cost multiples of what is currently being estimated by Congress. Given the shift of this large new cost onto private plans (to make up for the lower payments of government plans) will further exacerbate their costs and hurt the majority who have their own insurance.

By no means is the system broken. It has problems and is expensive but the majority get their own care through their own plans. There can be changes made but this monster is not the way to go
Kathy W. Jul 28, 2009, 8:46pm EDT
Okay Cindy. I'm done gigling now. And I realize (somewhat abashedly) that perhaps percentages were not taught when you were in school?

Your words: "Spar: Over 70% of Americans DO seem to agree on that necessity, Charles. / What of the other 70%?"</</em>strong>
I'm thinking you are not for real. 70%, dear heart, minus 100% of the population, leaves THIRTY PERCENT? Not "the other 70%." If I am your waitress, can I please figure my own tip? I'd hate to see what you'd do with 20% for my excellent service.



Kathy W. Jul 28, 2009, 8:48pm EDT
Charles, please site your source on the 80% thing. That is not what I have been reading?
We need, I think, to have a "source-off."
Wilka
Charles Temm JR Jul 29, 2009, 5:00pm EDT
Kathy, how many people supposedly do not have any form of insurance? 47 million right...that is the most quoted number according to those who want government insurance and the President himself. The population of the US is slightly over 300 million. The actual math (if you use 300 and 47 million as base numbers) comes out to 84.4% I went under to round off.

I'm no math genius but I've seen similar figures posted by supporters of ObamaCare.
Spartan * Jul 29, 2009, 5:31pm EDT
I did the same giggling when I read"what about the other 70%, spartan?", right after I quit shaking my head...LOL
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Dan R. Jul 27, 2009, 4:37pm EDT
THe truth is, we do not need a reform as such, we need to take care of the major problems first then we can work down the line to reduce the costs. But this will never happen, because too many want an incompetent Government, like we have had for many decades now, to run our health care.
Sandy (Site Psychic™) Knauer Jul 27, 2009, 7:29pm EDT
Dan, how can you say we don't need reform until we reform? That's -- well, not smart.
Dan R. Jul 27, 2009, 8:21pm EDT
No Sandy, saying that something that works just fine need reformed, is not smart.
The problem has little to do with health care, but the legal system and Government that allows and causes over 85% of the problems. You don't cure a sick man by cutting his head off, you treat the disease. Frivolous lawsuits that drive malpractice insurantr astronomically up, need to be stopped, judges that award these cases need to be disbarred. AMA which hinders the development of medicines that Doctors and Pharma companies can make a lot of money on, need restricted, so that sheaper meds can be produced. FDA needs to find a safe and quicker means of passing new treatments and drugs that actually help, instead of the 15 year program they have now; as that drives costs up. There are a lot of things that need addressed that would make it much easier to reduce the cost of service, if we quit looking to drive costs up more. The health care reforms now are all based on increasing costs to the country, and will not help.
I don't expect you to understand real logic, but I have at least tried to explain things to you so a 12 year old should be able to understand.
Spartan * Jul 28, 2009, 12:08am EDT
You have not displayed any real logic here, Dan. Or, that you even have grasp of how serious the problem happens to be. You REALLY need to get educate yourself as opposed to just swallowing what the republicans want to feed you.
Dan R. Jul 28, 2009, 12:46am EDT
I would not expect you to see any logic where there was any. Like I said I explained it so a 12 year old could understand. this does leave you out.
Spartan * Jul 28, 2009, 1:01am EDT
LOL...I guess that passes for sarcasm in Bumf**k Oklahoma? Doesn't wash here, Spud. Over 70% of the American people agree that you suffer from rectal/cranial inversion on this subject, Danny boy! BTW...how's that photography thing working out for you? ROTFLMFAO
Kathy W. Jul 28, 2009, 1:27am EDT
Dan, according to all the experts, Insurance IS the issue. Malpractice INSURANCE is still insurance.

The doctors face it from the other side, but it is still the insurance industry that needs to be bent over backwards, and have their heads (and wallets) thunked by the American People.

It is TIME to say NO to the Insurance companies. It is Freakin' TIME.
Since you belong to the Party of No, this should be real easy for you.
Wilka
Dan R. Jul 28, 2009, 2:26am EDT
Again Sparetan, you cannot hold a conversation without the childish attitude, and the mindless rantings. Why don't you go and learn something then try talking issues, instead of showing the world how much a fool you are.

Kathy, try reading my comments before attacking them. You would actually sound more intelligent then.
Spartan * Jul 28, 2009, 12:02pm EDT
Again, Daen, you call your response "mature"? The only issue I read from you is: health care=bad, corporate greed=good. Do you actually ENJOY being a Pawn?

Quoting from the comment by Sandy Knauer just below this:

"Thanks for the well-informed, rational post, Spartan."
Charles Temm JR Jul 28, 2009, 3:39pm EDT
Malpractice insurance Kathy is not to be reformed at all in this plan. Why in hell would the Administration buck its strongest and most wealthy special interest supporters in the legal field for that?
Kathy W. Jul 28, 2009, 8:58pm EDT
Dan R:
If my desire to ever sound "intelligent" to you should surface, I'll be sure to let you know.

I did skim through your comment, and MY comment still stands.
The major insurance conglomerates, whether Linda's HMO/PPO org or malpractice insurance policies that the doctors carry....IS STILL THE PROBLEM.
They are, indeed, one of the major contributors to bad coverage...or NO coverage, or extensive rates, or denial of claims, or...or...or....

Your quote to another contributor? "I don't expect you to understand real logic, but I have at least tried to explain things to you so a 12 year old should be able to understand." Is not worthy.
Wilka
Ron (in complete sheeple overload) W. Jul 28, 2009, 9:21pm EDT
"Malpractice insurance Kathy is not to be reformed at all in this plan."

Many hardly important issues are not being addressed. Charles, do you know how little of the total health care dollar is actually incurred in malpractice lawsuits? That the insurance companies blow the issue up, and use it to charge exorbitant malpractice insurance rates is hardly an argument for it being larger than it is. This is just more reason that insurance companies need to be out of the loop.
Charles Temm JR Jul 29, 2009, 5:07pm EDT
Of course it has no effect Ron, that's why states with higher malpractice rates like Mississippi for instance saw many of their obstetricians leave for other places. Anesthesiologists nationwide are becoming rarer too according to AMA reports I've read in the past. You can say its only insurance company propaganda but doctors seem to feel its pretty rough and add that cost onto their prices to do business.

So if there was no more malpractice insurance (said companies now gone) what happens to doctors when sued, how many lawsuits-settled or not before they are broke? The sheer cost of defending themselves is worse than the actual losses. Will people still be allowed to sue their doctors? I know that in the Armed Forces you can't do that but will that become a national policy?

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Sandy (Site Psychic™) Knauer Jul 27, 2009, 7:28pm EDT
Thanks for the well-informed, rational post, Spartan.
Spartan * Jul 27, 2009, 7:43pm EDT
"rational" posts tend to be lost on the "tinfoil hat" folks, Sandy...LOL
Sandy (Site Psychic™) Knauer Jul 27, 2009, 7:47pm EDT
I noticed that, Spartan. I used that word just in case you were at the point of scanning back up to make sure you wrote what you thought you did.
Lisa Frost Jul 28, 2009, 11:38am EDT
if that were true Linda, we would be grateful that we didn't have to see YOU
Charles Temm JR Jul 28, 2009, 3:41pm EDT
Tin foil hats? Ahh the politer title for those who disagree with you guys then...
Ron (in complete sheeple overload) W. Jul 28, 2009, 9:22pm EDT
Would you prefer idiot?
sharon SugarMomma is a wise woman, Jul 28, 2009, 9:24pm EDT
Kids, kids, kids, play nice or get your own playground.

Not you Wilka, the party of no interlopers.

Linda, One thing I'd like you to know. Many of us could have made big bucks but chose, I repeat chose to do valuable work positively affecting the lives of women and children.

What have you done for me lately?
sharon SugarMomma is a wise woman, Jul 28, 2009, 9:55pm EDT
What a handy, pun intended, platitude. Which non-functioning orifice did you pull that out of?
Lisa Frost Jul 28, 2009, 10:52pm EDT
The problem with that Linda, is that Sharon, unlike you, isn't a puppet to have others controlling what she says....
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Spartan * Jul 27, 2009, 7:46pm EDT
Dan, doing nothing about Health Care will hasten the demise of what's left of the middle class in this country. It's great for Insurance companies. But, then they don't care about America. They only salute the $$$$!
Dan R. Jul 27, 2009, 8:22pm EDT
Spartan, pay attention to what I have said for over a year now. We have discussed this before. Increasing costs without addressing the problem will not help.
Spartan * Jul 28, 2009, 12:02am EDT
and THAT appears to be the republican idea of "bi-partisanship, Dan. Just do NOTHING!
Dan R. Jul 28, 2009, 12:51am EDT
Maybe a better name for your article, would be "Spreading more falsehoods about healthcare" as that would be more of an honest name for it.
Spartan * Jul 28, 2009, 1:03am EDT
And, again...you would be typing while your head is up your ass. I'll pass on your complaints to the Kansas City Star! LOL
Charles Temm JR Jul 28, 2009, 3:49pm EDT
Dem bi-partisanship is what Spartan? Do what we want and get some credit?

This rushed mess is more dangerous than the status quo and many in your own party know it. It may pass but like cap and trade by narrow, fully partisan margins that will boomerang back on it's supporters.
Ron (in complete sheeple overload) W. Jul 28, 2009, 9:27pm EDT
Many democrats have been bought, yes. The amount of money rolling into campaign chests from those that have a vested interest in the status quo in just the last year and a half amounts to over 3.5 million dollars per every single Representative and Senator in Congress. Washington, the only place outside of Nevada you can hire a whore, have them f**k everybody, and never worry about being arrested.
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Timothy V. Jul 27, 2009, 8:44pm EDT
It's obvious that the health care system needs some work, however I don't trust the government to do it. For goodness sakes, they can't even fix our infrastructure. And do we need to talk about how the government has managed our educational system?

Maybe if we did away with the monetary system, then most problems will be solved.
Spartan * Jul 28, 2009, 12:00am EDT
But you DO trust them to provide the "Best Health Care in the World to our Military!" (according to conservative mouth piece Bill Kristol)? His words, Tim...not mine!
Timothy V. Jul 28, 2009, 7:22am EDT
Remember Walter Reed hospital? Enough said.
Ron (in complete sheeple overload) W. Jul 28, 2009, 9:30pm EDT
Yeah, we were meant to ride in wagons, communicate by lslow messenger over months, not seconds, raise and grow our own food, and so on. The Fed is evil, but Paul's alternative would amount to letting ALL the predators loose among the sheep.
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Liz [site-Raven] Please critique my poetry. Jul 27, 2009, 11:04pm EDT
Spartan, I have been very angry over this bill. I wanted Obama's timetable to be met. Pass it before August. Health Care as it is today will indeed bankrupt this country if Wall Street has not already done so. But I have read some reasonable articles suggesting [by Democrats] that indeed there are some real problems with the bill and that some tweeking ought be done to make it better prior to putting it up for vote.
Spartan * Jul 28, 2009, 12:42am EDT
Once again, you get caught in a Lie, Linda. Right now the Republican party is gearing up to spend One Million Dollars in 33 markets just during the August Recess to try and scare the hell out of people about Universal Health Care, and that money came FROM the Health Insurance Industry!
Kathy W. Jul 28, 2009, 1:07am EDT
And, I'm sorry to interrupt this love fest. But Spartan makes a very important point. WHY IS the insurance industry spending so freaking much money to keep the status quo?
BECAUSE IT MAKES THEM EVEN MORE MILLIONS AND BILLIONS OF NICE GREEN DOLLARS?

Perhaps, there should be areas of our country's economic system that is not up for sale, and should not create profit. Our cops and firefighters do not operate for profit. Perhaps our healthcare and educational systems should follow suit?
Jes' saying. Common sense dictates, I think, at least exploring this option.
Wilka
Kim J. Jul 28, 2009, 1:09am EDT
The reason that the drug companies are willing to give us a drop from their bucket is so they feel they can control what will be done...how hard is that to figure out? Just like they did with the medicare prescription reform--here's $5 so I can swindle the consumer out of $20.
Spartan * Jul 28, 2009, 1:17am EDT
The Health Insurance industry is spending such obscene amounts of money to STOP reform because the Health Insurance industry makes it's money by DENYING Health Care to people who have paid for....wait for it.....HEALTH CARE!

They put a monetary value on every single patient and procedure. Just for a moment, forget the uninsured people and think about the people who HAVE Health Insurance and as soon as they need it, they get told "that's not covered" by some dweeb in phone call center who's been instructed to "just say NO"! THAT'S the value Insurance companies place on human suffering!
Kathy W. Jul 28, 2009, 1:21am EDT
Got a buddy who left her job over this. They were told to deny the claim 3 times, then pass it to a manager who would deny coverage, guess? 3 times. If the patient persisted they would consider paying the claim.
That was standard operating procedure...

She doesn't work for them anymore.
Now, she can sleep at night again. (Without Restless Leg Syndrome drugs...)
Wilka
Spartan * Jul 28, 2009, 12:08pm EDT
Excuse me, you are posting "comments", nothing more here. You have an interesting habit of highjacking my articles rather than writing your own. I guess it's just easier to feed off someone else than not getting many "views" on your own stuff.
Debra (Gather SiteWarrior Extraordinaire) Jul 28, 2009, 8:51pm EDT
She hijacks EVERYBODY'S threads. She can't spell, she can't write and she rarely makes any sense, except to spout off conspiracy theories, and fox news (although she claims all news media are evil)

I got tired of her silly ass.
Lisa Frost Jul 28, 2009, 10:57pm EDT
Spartan doesn't only post. He comments as well. unfortunately he has to spend so much of his time trying to keep the uninformed from swallowing your massive amounts of BS that you put onto articles he writes.
Debra (Gather SiteWarrior Extraordinaire) Jul 29, 2009, 9:07am EDT
Linda A.rrogant , thinks she's a challenge? Hahahahahahahahahahah! Best laugh I've had in days.

What the dumbass isn't able to do is distinguish between a conversation and flooding someone else's articles with conspiracy nonsense.

I doubt you "luv" anyone other than yourself, Linda.
Spartan * Jul 29, 2009, 5:36pm EDT
She is a legend in her own mind. As far as I'm concerned she's just an industry FLACK out to spread as much false information as is humanly possible. Basically, a total waste of oxygen!
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Kim J. Jul 28, 2009, 1:09am EDT
Very good article Spartan, as usual.
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Kathy W. Jul 28, 2009, 1:11am EDT
And, Jay-Suess Keeee-e-e-erist? AFA? Here's their credo:

Our Purpose
The American Family Association represents and stands for traditional family values and exists to motivate and equip citizens to reform our culture to reflect Biblical truth on which it was founded. We believe that God has communicated absolute truth to man through nature and the Bible, and that all men everywhere and at all times are subject to His authority. Therefore, a culture based on Biblical truth best serves the well-being of our country as evidenced by the vision of our forefathers as set forth in the Declaration of Independence.

To that end, AFA spurs activism directed to:

* Preservation of Marriage and the Family
* Decency and Morality
* Sanctity of Human Life
* Stewardship
* Media Integrity

Other divisions of AFA include OneNewsNow.com, an online news provider that is syndicated around the world. AFA maintains activist web sites such as OneMillionMoms.com and OneMillionDads.com that rally Christian activists to contact companies asking them to drop their advertising from objectionable TV shows. AFA web sites average over 40 million hits and five million visitors each month.

Yuck. Okay, as far as I'm concerned, that makes them both behavior Nazi's and professional propagandists. Pass the popcorn, ya'all.
Wilka
Kathy W. Jul 28, 2009, 1:13am EDT
That makes them extremists, and unconstitutional, to boot! This is a Lobby group, make no mistake...and is dead set on brainwashing sheeple into being zealots.
This is so NOT what our founding fathers had in mind for their "chill'uns."
Think about THAT please?
Wilka
Spartan * Jul 28, 2009, 1:31am EDT
Of COURSE they are a Lobbying Group! No different from the "c"hristian Coalition (small "c" intentional). What makes both of these groups obscene is that Big Corporations fund them!
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Kathy W. Jul 28, 2009, 1:36am EDT
***whispers***
Do you think they've all gone to bed now?
W
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Kathy W. Jul 28, 2009, 1:41am EDT
Obama's words:
It's also not too soon to reform our health care system, which we've been talking about since Teddy Roosevelt was President.

We are at a defining moment for this nation. If we act now, then we can rebuild our economy in a way that makes it strong, competitive, sustainable and prosperous once more. We can lead this century the same way that we led the last century. But if we don't act, if we let this moment pass, we could see this economy just sputter along for decades -- a slow, steady decline in which the chances for our children and our grandchildren are fewer than the opportunities that were given to us. And that's contrary to the history of America. One of our core ideas has always been that we leave the next generation better off than us. And that's why we have to act right now.

I know that people say the costs of fixing our problems are great -- and in some cases, they are. The costs of inaction, of not doing anything, are even greater. They're unacceptable. And that's why this town hall and this debate that we're having around health care is so important.

Let me just give a few statistics. Many of you already know these. In the last nine years, premiums have risen three times faster than wages for the average family. I don't need to tell you this because you've seen it in your own lives. Even if you've got health insurance -- and 46 million people don't -- if you've got health insurance, you have seen your costs double. They've gone up three times faster than wages. If we do nothing, then those costs are just going to keep on going higher and higher.

In recent years, over one-third of small businesses have reduced benefits and many have dropped coverage altogether since the early '90s -- not because small business owners don't want to provide benefits to their workers, but they just simply can't afford it; they don't have the money. If we don't act, that means that more people are going to lose coverage and more people are going to lose their jobs because those businesses are not going to be competitive.

Unless we act, within a decade, one out of every $5 we earn will be spent on health care. And for those who rightly worry about deficits, the amount our government spends on Medicare and Medicaid will eventually grow larger than what our government spends today on everything else combined -- everything else combined.

The Congressional Budget Office just did a study that showed that when you look at the rising costs of entitlement, 90 percent of it is Medicare and Medicaid -- it's not Social Security -- 90 percent of it comes from the federal share of health care costs. So if we want to control our deficits, the only way for us to do it is to control health care costs.

What, no...really? What is so hard to understand about this?
We really ARE smarter than this...as a nation of thinkers.
(But why you end up with so many UN-thinkers commenting on your posts really amazes me.) It is like Rhetoric Central sometimes.
Wilka
Matthew M. Jul 28, 2009, 8:29am EDT
The economy will be sputtering on for a long time once the deficit explodes and the Dollar collapses.
Debra (Gather SiteWarrior Extraordinaire) Jul 29, 2009, 9:13am EDT
Did Linda A.sinine just change the subject, divert from the points made by Kathy?
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Kathy W. Jul 28, 2009, 1:41am EDT
http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/Remarks-of-the-President-in-an-Online-Town-Hall-on-Health-Care-Reform/
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Timothy V. Jul 28, 2009, 7:40am EDT
Let's see here....it appears that some of you folks would trust Government officials who take money from lobbyists{ many have complained about lobbying by the insurance industry} to manage our healthcare system?
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Matthew M. Jul 28, 2009, 8:23am EDT
I agree our health care needs some work, but government takeover is not necessarily the solution. The federal deficit is far too high already to support any of the plans being considered. When am I going to hear about some plans that do not involve the government spending hundreds of billions or trillions of $'s?
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Spartan * Jul 28, 2009, 12:10pm EDT
I am SO glad I can provide a platform for "Tin Foil Hat Wearing" Linda to spout off on. I guess I FINALLY have a purpose in life! Jeeeeeeeeeeeeeeez!
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Nanina Hawk Jul 28, 2009, 12:57pm EDT
Our tax dollars are already paying for indigent care. When seven out of eight patients are uninsured, we are paying for them. Malpractice insurance is so high, we are paying for that, because physicians have to increase what they charge. The cost is always passed on to the consumer.
The Health insurance industries only want healthy customers, that is, how they make their money. They are a business, they don't care about your health needs, only about a profit. The person sitting on the phone in another state deciding your medical needs, about rather or not they will approve a test, surgery, etc. they don't have a medical degree. They are working on strict guidelines set up by your insurance company. They really don't care about the fact your physician who examined you recommends you need a procedure.
Not only are most personal bankruptcies due to medical bills beyond the ability of the consumer to pay, but most of the households declaring bankruptcy for this reason do so despite having health insurance coverage.
Health insurance appears to be useless when it is most needed. Twenty-five percent of insurance companies cancel coverage immediately when an individual covered suffers a disabling illness. Within a year, another twenty-five percent of insurers cancel coverage.
As I have read through the above comments, I am amazed at how many people still believe our medical system isn't broken.
At the age of 49 getting health insurance to cover me is next to impossible. Even though it is going on 10 years since my massive heart attack. Insurance companies want a premium of three thousand dollars a month, and that exclude heart care, since my heart attack is looked upon as a pre-existing condition.
The system is broken, and I hope people don't have to go through a severe experience to see just how bad it is.




Lisa Frost Jul 28, 2009, 11:39pm EDT
I hope others don't have to either. You put it very well Nanina. I have lost much trying to take care of my family, while fighting insurance companies and high medical costs. At 43, I couldn't get the specialist they sent me to see to do anything about my condition. I have moved so that I can find a specialist that will. I would rather be able to work, and take care of myself and my family rather than have my children having to take care of me, but the insurance company doesn't think I need a different doctor, because they might try something that would be expensive....
Kathy W. Aug 2, 2009, 12:03am EDT
Nanina: Excellent comment. Thank you.
The current HB 3200 does not discriminate on pre-existings. Please google it. Link is: http://docs.house.gov/edlabor/AAHCA-BillText-071409.pdf
Sec. 111. Prohibiting pre-existing condition exclusions.
A qualified health benefits plan may not impose any pre-existing condition exclusion (as defined in section 22 2701(b)(1)(A) of the Public Health Service Act) or other23 wise impose any limit or condition on the coverage under 24 the plan with respect to an individual or dependent based
25 on any health status-related factors (as defined in section 2791(d)(9) of the Public Health Service Act) in relation to the individual or dependent.
Blessed be,
Wilka
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Dorothy H. Jul 28, 2009, 5:18pm EDT
Good article, Spartan!
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Jim Marshall Jul 28, 2009, 8:58pm EDT
I was going to ask if anyone here had ever had a major health care problem, however after reading Nanina's post I won't go that route.

I have excellent employer provided insurance and still have been pushed to the edge by left over bills from a surgery last year and the subsequent, forever meds with no generic.

We need a single payer system and there is no doubt of this in my mind. We need to remove the profit motive from health care. Now!
Kathy W. Jul 28, 2009, 9:04pm EDT
Jim.
Thank you.
Wilka
Spartan * Jul 28, 2009, 9:47pm EDT
Thank you, Jim for sharing that with everyone. It is VERY important for folks to know this.
Lisa Frost Jul 28, 2009, 11:07pm EDT
I have FEDERAL Blue Cross, and I am so buried by the left over's of what they don't pay it is horrible, yet I am constantly told by providers that my insurance is one of the best. (Not BC/BS, but the fact that it is a federal insurance, we have a choice of policies. I was using Humana, but got tired of having to constantly call to have something paid. When my mom was dying with Cancer, she had the Humana. We had to fight to get EVERY procedure covered. They would not allow her to get a scooter to increase her mobility because it was not "cost effective" because she was listed as TErMinAL. Blue Cross will not cover me getting one because I can get around my house. DUH that is why I don't need a wheel chair. I can't walk to the store, or even around the store, but that doesn't matter. I guess it wouldn't be profitable for them.
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Franklin Newman Jul 28, 2009, 9:05pm EDT
Thank you. This is a great post.
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Todd L Jul 28, 2009, 9:48pm EDT
Spartan you say:

Why isn't anyone asking THAT question to the republicans! Answer? CORPORATE CONTROLLED MEDIA!

Isn't this an ironic twist ......Just who do think controls that corporate media.....Sure as hell not the right....It's your friends on the left and all the liberals that control it.....And don't even make me list all off them cause I'd be able to use up the rest of your comment area on that!!!
Don(time to open them FEMA camps) S. Jul 28, 2009, 9:54pm EDT
You are so funny and wrong toddster.
Spartan * Jul 28, 2009, 10:04pm EDT
Yep! All those "liberals" over at good ole' War Profiteering GE are doing the controlling, Todd! LOL
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Spartan * Jul 28, 2009, 9:53pm EDT
I would encourage EVERYONE to simply READ THE ARTICLE and ignore the comments of people like Linda A. who WORKS for the INSURANCE INDUSTRY! I would also suggest ignoring the comments of Cindy Price, who claims to be a writer, yet has posted NOTHING here on Gather, which can only lead one to the conclusion that "she" is an Alias!

IF you decided to read the comments, please note how these two individuals continually try to twist, turn, and derail the conversation about Heath Care!

Once again, I will point out this is NOT a "liberal vs conservative" issue! It is a HEALTH INSURANCE INDUSTRY AGAINST THE AMERICAN PEOPLE Issue!
EM JAY (Gather Director of Chaos & Uprisings) W. Jul 28, 2009, 10:04pm EDT
It's easy to ignore Linda.

Why does it even have to be the Health Care INDUSTRY? Like food production, health care should not be an INDUSTRY.

Spartan * Jul 28, 2009, 10:34pm EDT
Being singled out as an insurance FLACK is hardly "recognition! It's more like putting your picture up on the "Most Wanted" wall at the post office! I would delete your comments, but I prefer for people to see exactly how an Insurance Industry FLACK operates. It's quite entertaining!
Ron (in complete sheeple overload) W. Jul 29, 2009, 2:43am EDT
"GOVT. STARTED THE HMO/PPO'S AND CONTROLS THAT INDUSTRY. "

Nixon acted on the request of Kaiser, one of the leaders in this field of INSURANCE, and started this obscene crap, Linda. Government implemented it, at the behest of the insurance industry. Stop trying to sell the lie that the insurance industry was required to do this evil by government. See the Nixon tape transcript above, and give that crap a rest.
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EM JAY (Gather Director of Chaos & Uprisings) W. Jul 28, 2009, 9:58pm EDT
Thank you, Spartan, for putting truth out there.
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Rose H. Jul 28, 2009, 10:24pm EDT
It's a wonderful article, Spartan. I'd comment more, but I don't do well under fire:)
I used to work for the insurance industry so I have no trouble understanding that they will do whatever is necessary to maintain status quo.
The American people have no clue what goes on behind closed doors.

My only fear is that the bill will be tweaked until it is no longer recognizable. I am certain, that regardless of what the final bill will look like, there will still be plenty of profit for the insurance companies.
Spartan * Jul 28, 2009, 10:37pm EDT
Sadly, due to influence peddling by the Insurance Industry (money in legislators pockets), I fear what we are going to see WILL be so watered down that it won't make any difference, Rose. When it is the American people against Giant Obscene Corporations, Obscene Corporations usually win.
Spartan * Jul 28, 2009, 10:56pm EDT
Especially when it is a FLACK like you doing the intimidating! LOL
Ron (in complete sheeple overload) W. Jul 29, 2009, 6:41am EDT
Rose isn't new, and I doubt she's intimidated. I imagine she just doesn't have the patience to deal with BS.
Debra (Gather SiteWarrior Extraordinaire) Jul 29, 2009, 9:25am EDT
So THAT'S why they call it Aflac insurance? who knew? lol
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Todd L Jul 28, 2009, 10:44pm EDT
Once again an irony Spartan....War Profiteering GE....Don, I don't think I'm funny or wrong...And what major media outlets does GE own....Oh..yeah that right (left)...MSNBC, NBC, and some of the most leftist business organizations on the planet.........You guys can laugh all you want but the ones you critisize out of one side of your mouth are the same ones you stick up for out of the other side....

Jeffrey Immelt is one of the biggest scumbags on the planet...And look who he is.... A financial advisor to....DUH.... (Gee, can you say liberal/socialist/marxist)....The other biggest scumbag on the planet....Look guys, you can hate me for hating them but the bottom line is on this one you can't win...All you got is your opinions and your left wing blogs and newspapers and media...

You really want debate this let's state the facts and make Spartan a whole lot of points and something worth reading, instead of this drivel you have all been yapping about, and this includes you too Don.....

Once again we just have to agree to disagree, and believe me I disagree 100%......
Spartan * Jul 28, 2009, 10:54pm EDT
You'r