Why do you think gay marraige is opposed so much by religious people if it says to love everybody in the bible?

When bigots read the Bible, watch out !!!!

I'm sorry if the Bible isn't politicaly correct it was never intended to be politicaly correct. Murder, theft, assault and battery, intoxication, adultery, rape, incest, beastality, and yes homosexuality are all wrong, period.

So is eating meat on Friday, eating anything with a cloven hoof, and wearing mixed fibers. What are YOUR clothes made of?

Leviticus 21:5 They shall not make baldness upon their head, neither shall they shave off the corner of their beard, nor make any cuttings in their flesh. Guilty?

For that matter the bible also says not to incite a person to anger. Guilty?

For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Im guilty. I was born into sin. I can admit that. None of any one elses sins are any of my business and nor are mine anyone elses business.

Because people are ignorant, uneducated and bigoted... not to mention ill-informed, afraid, not very bright... and did I mention bigoted? And they're unkind, ill-mannered, insensitive, and, before I forget, let me also say that they're bigoted! Besides which, they're sanctimonious, self-righteous, self-important fools... and to top it all, bigoted!

Chuck, I guess God is a bigot? It says in clear english in the Bible that homosexuality is wrong. In the Talmud, the Jewish Old Testament, it says that homosexuality is a moral insult to God that should be punished with death by stoning. The Quran also says the homosexuality is a capital offense. How can all these religions be wrong. Finally something that Christians, Jews, and even Muslims can agree on. Are the practioners of these three faiths all bigots Chuck?

Yes.

Funny, Josh, the New Testament seems to say that it is not out place to judge. I seem to remember something about motes and beams in eyes. Perhaps, if you are a Christian, you know the passage and can explain to me what it really means since it obviously doesn't mean what it says.

PS: How could the Greeks and Romans have been wrong in their religions in 100 BCE?

Because it says that man should not lie down with man. And you've been deceived if you think a kind rewrote the Bible. That's not true at all.

We can and should love everyone, but that does not mean that we should encourage or embrace everything that everyone does or doesn't do.

So do you agree with these too?

* DEUTERONOMY 22:13-21
If it is discovered that a bride is not a virgin, the Bible demands that she be executed by stoning immediately.
* DEUTERONOMY 22:22
If a married person has sex with someone else's husband or wife, the Bible commands that both adulterers be stoned to death.
* MARK 10:1-12
Divorce is strictly forbidden in both Testaments, as is remarriage of anyone who has been divorced.
* MARK 12:18-27
If a man dies childless, his widow is ordered by biblical law to have intercourse with each of his brothers in turn until she bears her deceased husband a male heir.
* DEUTERONOMY 25:11-12
If a man gets into a fight with another man and his wife seeks to rescue her husband by grabbing the enemy's genitals, her hand shall be cut off and no pity shall be shown her.

Bryan, I'm so very pleased to be your friend! It is good for us godless folk to count among their friends at least one truly righteous believer.

Didn't figure you would respond to this Marilyn.

No, it is not for us to pass judgment on others. God does not need to account to us, we are to account to him for our actions and deeds. Whether or not it is a sin is entirely up to God and he will deal with it as he sees fit.

In my opinion, love is love, no matter what the gender. There is no threat to the rest of the population just because there are people who prefer their own sex for partners. Why would we fear something that is not in our makeup in the first place?

I know some gay couples and they are perfectly normal in every way. The are educated, hold the best jobs, they are productive citizens and nice people. If I did not know they were gay, there is no way I would be aware of it. My moto is "Live and let live"!

Look, I am a Christian, but I have a poor command of the Bible. I am not here to Bible thump anyone, however, I know from what little scripture I have read that God does not condone homosexuality in any sense.

God explicitely says, "a man should not lie down with another man as he would with a woman" he also says that, "a man should not lie down with a beast as he would with a woman." These verses essentially explain sexual sin, it spells out in clear language that homosexuality and bestality, along with adultery which I did not mention are wrong, and offensive in God's eyes.

Also there is the story of Abraham in Sodom and Gemorrah, where we get the word "sodomy." Anyone who knows the story of the family of Abraham, the patriarch of both the Jewish, Christian, and Islamic faith, knows that men from these cities demanded to "know" visiters who were really arch angles in human form who were staying at Abraham's house. Abraham refused to let his gues be sexualy assaulted by the mob, and instead offered his own daughters to satisfy the sexual impulses of the men outside.

God destroyed both Sodom and Gemorrah. Furthermore, where are you getting all of this tolerance from the Bible? Haven't you ever read the story about Jesus lashing and overturning merchants and money lenders in a temple that he was visiting, because they were acting unGodly in the Lord's house. Sin is offensive and vile in the eyes of the Lord. Homosexuality is considered a sin, to Christians, Jews, and Muslims.

Christians believe that the state should not condone sin. The state should not oppress gay couples but it should not enable them to engage in homosexual acts and it should not bless their activities by granting them the legal entitlements of marriage. I agree with this view, although I have never considered myself a member of the Christian right. I like to keep politics and religion seperate.

God never wrote anything. Many men over many years did,

Jesus threw the money changers/merchants out of the temple, because they were GREEDY, not because of homosexuality. Jesus spoke nothing about homosexuality, at6 all, and neithe did he pass judgement on the adultress, who was about to be stoned to death according to Gods supposed law.

Josh, you might try reading the Bible sometime or listening to it. There are many copies of it available on tape. It's really a good book.

In large part it is because the very most debased and filthy scum will always be desperate to point fingers... anything to take attention away from their own perfidy. We'll notice these so-called moral agents' tendency to shy away from confronting church-based abuses and all-out crimes. This is to be expected when dealing with the mean-spirited and convinced. These people took this stuff straight from the teat. Bring them on, to use one of their hero's words. I look forward to the revelation that the human spirit and the need for freedom from nincompoops' authority will always outshine fascist tendencies.

"debased and filthy scum will always be desperate to point fingers... anything to take attention away from their own perfidy."

Is this what you think Christians are truelly like? I find this offensive! Just because there have been a few priest or pastors who have been hypocritical, you can not take 0.01% of Christians in position of authority and call the rest ignorant, debased, filthy, or bigoted. The point is, abherents of the three Abrahamic religions (Jews, Muslims, and Christians) clearly believe that homosexuality is a mortal sin! It would be wrong for the federal government to condone this activity when it opposses other sins condemned by these three religions, mainly theft, murder, the proliferation of intoxicants (drugs), assault and battery, and under state law in some cases adultery is illegal under the law. You call religous people "fascist", because we believe in a life of principles? Because we believe in a life of morality? Because we believe in a higher spiritual power? I sorry but aren't you the minority imposing your will against the majority of Americans who don't want homosexual marriage, if that is not fascist I don't know what is.

No one has said to make a law that says you have to marry a homosexual, Josh. It is not the minority trying to impose it's will on the majority, it's theinority striving and seeking those freedoms long fought for, and to get, "THE BOOT, of the oppressors off off their necks!

The Constitution protects the minority from the abuses of power by the majority, as well as upholding rights of the people, (individuals), and restrictions on government, NOT the people (individuals). Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

Other people's sex lives are no business of mine, Josh. Are they a concern of yours? Does Christianity say that we are all to keep tabs on other people when they have sex to be sure they are doing it right?

josh ~ why would it be wrong for the federal government to condone same sex unions just because it says (in your interpretation) in the bible that it's wrong? aren't we supposed to seperate church & state? you yourself said you don't mix one with the other?
to each his/her own. live & let live. let the big guy upstairs judge. why do us mere mortals feel the need to judge for him? are some of these mortals that in touch with god that they know what he's thinking? oy give me a break.

Josh, the majority is not always right.

Remember slavery?
Remember women's right to vote?
Remember laws against inter-racial marriage?
Remember witch hunts?
Remember Vietnam?
Remember long-term imprisonment (years) for possessing marijuana?
Remember when absolutely no one spoke up about child abuse, spouse abuse?
Remember coat-hanger abortions?

I say liberty and justice for all

Joshsludge, you SHOULD be offended, if you're paying attention to anything other than your own misplaced sense of authority. Your hate-filled nonsense will not float in the face of liberation. You will no doubt continue to wallow in your belief that what you've been sold should be bought by all, but that's a fool's dream. You, and those like you, should spend some energy making your/their own home(s) places of learning not judging. You'll never know all the lessons you've missed and stole from your "loved-ones" because of your blind refusal to practice what the most-enlightened of the faithful preach. You are doomed to denial. You will continue your bad habit of applying your own received claptrap to those who most give you the shivers... the free and the un-convinced of your daddy's dark fibs.

Look at your atavar, Sludgeknuckles. Who are you trying to kid? Fool? Impress?
You need a lot of things, sunny boy. Good luck!

I've wondered this for YEARS, and you have expressed these thoughts elequontly.
People that have and US vs THEM mentality have to find SOMETHING to dislike about others, and sometimes it's their sexual preference. Sometimes, it's their religious preferance, and somtimes it's their presonal freedoms and rights.

Once again... it is not for me to judge. Not believing in something does not give me the right to pass judgement on those who do. I am not "afraid" because of homosexuals. The fact that I know a few does not mean they are close friends, and clearly their preference is not going to "rub off" on me.

You are right that religion and politics are two different matters and should stay that way. What frightens me far more than homosexuals being sinners are the self-appointed morality police and the Rambo types who contribute to the mindset that has spread across this country. Spread enough fear and the uninformed people will follow. It's amazing how many people cannot think and make decisions on their own.

I am a senior citizen in my early 70's, I am a christian, I am an independent voter. I have seen many things change since my college days, and much of the change has contributed to the lowering of moral standards. We seem to put a stamp of approval on anything that any paraticular group feels is discrimination, no matter how over the top is seems to others.

We don't live in the dark ages anymore. We have freedoms in this country that are unheard of in most others. This is the price we pay for our right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. One thing is for sure... this debate will go on forever.

very nicely put, donna marie.

my fear is our rights as citizens of this country will slowly be taken away. small things that will snowball. some out there want to take away the right to love; to choose who to love. some think they know better what will keep me safe or happy; their goes my right to choose.

i digress, i apologize.

Some people are quite educated but have differing views. Some views are dangerous, some are wrong, some are righteous, some are based in love...

Also, some people do honestly fear that if we go to far from God that He will finally decide to lower the boom on all of us and end our culture and lives and we know it... in literal judgment, and that the only way to same our civilization as we know it...

is to not become too very ungodly and unrighteous!

That also goes for the whole abortion issue!

I mean is it a woman's freedom of choice to not carry a new life to full term and give birth to a new human being, and terminate her pregnancy... for expediency sake or for whatever reason?

Or is it a new human life that should be preserved, protected, made in the very image of God, unique and matters?

People have their own reasons, whether educated or just sentimental, for their reasons and views...

And whether one can express their views reasonably or with all kinds of emotion does not either make them right or wrong in their views...

Does it?

Father St. John of the Cross

The homosexuals have ALWAYS been here! Doing all THAT STUFF, the opressors don't like, and call sinfuln only hidden, in the past because the self-righteous oppressors would KILL THEM, and TORTURE THEM, and yet God did not do the ultimate destruction.

Mankind is still here, homosexuals and all!

And as far as the story of Sodom and Gomorrh goes? It was not destroyed due to homosexuality. Do some reseach and you'll discover that the area is made up of BRIMSTONE!

To this day, people in the area gather the rocks to burn for their fires. It was a natural disaster. An eruption of gasses and fire that ignited the brimstone, and BOOM!!!!

If a God had any hand in it's distruction due to the behaviours of people it was not homosexuality, it was the behaviour of hostility, rape, violence, and just plain rudeness to strangers, which was, at that time in history and culture, a very bad offense, and could bring an entire clan of the offended, down on the whole offending tribe, of which all might be slaughtered down to every last soul, including the livestock.

This note is for Elizabeth, Dorothy and Larry. I have these three messages that make reference to things I never said in my posts to this debate. I'm wondering if there is some confusion... either on my part or on your (collectively). I never mentioned anything about God writing anything; I never said anything about the bible being re-written by the church and King to suit them.

My posts were clearly stating that we (here on earth) are not suppose to judge others. Judgement is to be left up to God. We are suppose to love one another, but homosexuals do exist and it's really none of my business. So if you have confused my posts with someone else, please know that I never said anything that each of you thought I said.

My comments on this thread were to Josh. I thought I labeled each in that way. Your post was just fine. It was rational and made good points. Please post more.

Thanks. One can only equate his picture with someone from the Ku Klux Klan... afraid to show their faces. He has his point of view and is stuck with them. Further comment from me would be insulting, thus I will refrain for further conversation on Josh.

Josh: The Old Testament Bible says many things like slaughter all your first born, kill your parents, cut people's head's off, if your a thief cut off your hand sort of stuff. They are stories told around campfires to illustrate a point about Go's relationship with His people. A literal reading of words translated by who knows and from what manuscript is sort of well, sketchy. Christians follow the New Testament, a new law which Jesus brought to replace and fulfill the "Old Law" (or Old Testament) The new commandment is to love God and your neighbor as yourself. The simple commandment replaced thousands of old rules, laws, rituals. I think if you check around there are some major religious organization who accept gays and gay marriages, gay priests and bishops.

"slaughter all your first born, kill your parents"

Greg; please tell me which version of the Holy Bible you've been reading that in?

Father St. John of the Cross

I have nothing against homosexuals and I am not about to tell others how to live their lives. As for myself, I try not to do anything that the Bible says not to do. But then, I am not gay so I don't have to struggle with deciding whether or not to follow the Bible in that area.

I think you hit the nail on the head, its fear. The gay marriage issue seems to be the only one, where such a blantent disregard for the separation of church and state is accepted.

Saint Porta-John...
In case you haven't noticed. your house is on fire and no amount of pointing fingers or applying idiot rules to others is going to save your shack.

Yes, porta-john, that's your crud fuelling the flames. Why don't you get a hobby and stop pretending that everybody is as stupid and lame as you? I sorta' hate to break it to you but your daddy was wrong. Not "bad," just wrong. These ideologies are handed down like stinky blankets, boy. Get your foul convictions away from this struggling democracy. You can take your idiocies elsewhere but here, in the United States of America, your theocratic fantasies will wither and die. If it suits your sense of drama your dead flowers can be nailed to an exit sign.

The religious are also opposed to pre-marital sex (fornication) so I really don't understand how they can be opposed to marriage of any sort.

BINGO!!

In one short sentence you said it all! Amazing how people can spout off about an issue like gay marriage, but sleep around like it's the last piece they will ever get! Need I say more to the self-rightous bigots out there???

Well folks, I'm not going to touch this subject except to say GOD BLESS EACH AND EVERYONE OF US! I have friends from all walks of life and I love each and every one of them! May everyone have a GREAT week-end!

Christians pick and choose from the Bible what they want to believe. If they want to eat pork, they eat it etc. Why they choose homosexuals as a major target is a puzzle. There are so many other sins which cause harm to others. Who gets harmed when two gays love and devote their lives to each other.

The targeting of less-than-powerful groups is a tried and true tactic used by those who wither in the face of earthly wealth and power while singing the praises of non-materialistic lip-service. If these hypocrites can raise Caine about other peoples' business, ignoring the fact that it is none of their's, then chances are pretty good that we'll be distracted enough to allow their own on-going creepiness to go unnoticed.

An important and overlooked fact is that even the most depraved sociopathic *ssh*les can suit up with a neck tie and tote around a bible. Apparent religious leanings is the best costume since the bandana.