Don't Want Gov't Health Insurance? What's Your Alternative?!?

keep it like it is.

And screw the 40 million (and increasing rapidly) people out here with no chance at effective health care at all?  Nice.

FAIL!

Thanks, Norene. It's nice to know who actually doesn't give a damn about her fellow Americans.

Well, I DID ask...

You're right, Chuck... Not just fail. EPIC FAIL! This is going to have to happen, like it or not!

You said yourself that over 85% of Americans have health insurance.  That is if one accepts the 45-50 million number of uninsured that is always batted around.

Obama's current plan has those not taking on a form of insurance paying a fine of $1000 whenever checked on.  Instead of doing such, how about repealing the law that says hospitals have to treat patients for free emergency care?  Estimates of that magic 50 million number point out that upwards of a full third are younger adults who make the conscious decision not to get health insurance.  They do so because a) they tend to be healthy and b) they can get emergency care for free if necessary.  Another quarter or more of that total number are illegals.

For the remaining 'uninsured' expand Medicare/Aid.  Its held up by many as a great program.  Allow more tax free contributions to medical savings accts.  Allow a la carte insurance policies. End state/Federal mandates on what people must buy for their policies.  None of these are full solutions and little has not been discussed before BUT they are always shouted down as not covering everyone.

The plan as now discussed is estimated to only able to cover maybe a third or more of the uninsured with a cost far in excess of plan figures according to the CBO and many other sources.  In other words its at best a partial but incredibly expensive "fix" at a time when we are really bankrupt with trillions of unfunded future obligations already.

That this plan will shift even more cost onto the government as private plans are bled white is barely acknowledged.  The collapse of private plans will expand the government "competition" far beyond numbers even being discussed now.   No private sector plan can compete with a government plan that sets payments and premimums below survival rates.  People will dump their more expensive private plans because they think they can save some with the shift.  Medical providers will have to shift more costs onto the private sector to make up for that further drain.  In effect, greatly expanding current problems.

To accept the idea that government can run competively against the private sector, one has to accept the fact that government will force the medical community to accept less payments thus shifting costs.  One also has to dump belief and somehow think government will actually run an ever expanding program efficiently.  Short term this will work until the private sector cow is dry.  Of course there is also the simple fact that we can't fund our current programs wihout deficits, adding this doesn't help.

I like the idea of repealing free emergency room visits, Charles.  Sounds cruel, I suppose, but I know individuals who, as you said, choose not to pay into insurance that is available to them at work because if something happens to them - even a cold!!! - they know they can hit the emergency room.

I don't understand where people get the idea that the ER is "free".  It's not.  Allegedly, it's required to "triage" you that doesn't mean you don't get a bill, and it doesn't mean that you can't be sent to collections, where a default judgement against you can be obtained.  Once a judgement is entered, you can have liens attached your personal and professional property, you bank account can be attached and your wages can be garnished.

I guess Noreen is alittle selfish!! Have you ever heard of PAYING IT FORWARD???

We pay it forward every day..... when we pay our taxes!

I want to know where anybody gets FREE ER service??? Even after my insurance pays its share I have bills. GIVE ME A BREAK

The alternitive is one I have said many times.  A single payer plan similar to Medicare but vastly improved to cover 100% of all costs, including medicine.  Maybe a small co-pay.

Recently I have learned of Israel's plan it it works great.  The government collects the premiums based on income and then pays the insurance companies.  The have near total coverage and no political involvment at all.

Yep, I liked that one too.  Not sure it had NO political involvement, but...  Governmental involvement isn't crucial to me.  EFFECTIVE health insurance for EVERYONE is, and I doubt it happens here without some government insurance.

NOT fail!

I could live with that system. I'm not asking for free health care. I pay for what little is available to me anyway. Would be nice to know I could afford diagnostics when a problem arises instead of having to "wait and see what happens or not."

It is the only logical way to do it, the cheapest since most of it is already set up and in place.  Oboma has said he would not consider it so he would probably veto it and congress would have to override his veto.

Since it is logical and cheaper it will never happen, not in Washington DC.   Both of those are foreign to our politicians.

I agree.  A sliding scale on premiums and single-payer would work best.  It's so sensible and progressive sounding, though, that it is opposed at every turn from those profitting from the current system.  I think many would support it were it not for the scary ads on TV about what they call "socialized medicine".

Dano-You got it in one.  The millions that the insurance company spends to keep the status quo insures that many people, if not most, will believe the propaganda.  That's why people need REAL education about what a single payer system is, not what the insurance companies want them to believe it is.

I don't know a whole lot about it, but if it will afford the many without insurance, and give better insurance than what some of us have, I'm all for it.

Subtract the people who are illegal immigrants from the number of uninsured, and the people who don't want insurance or don't need it, and charge the rest a minimal amount of money to add them to the already existing program of Medicaid.

Lessee now... Number of uninsured - 46 to 50 million (the number has increased as jobs have disappeared).  Number of illegal aliens (remember - most hispanics in this country are NOT illegal) 12 million (that's the number I keep hearing, anyway).  Twelve million from 46 million equals 34 million uninsured American Citizens.

Sorry Marilyn - FAIL

Minus those who choose not to have insurance.  About another 17 million.  What's left, put on Medicaid and charge them for that.  The government can determine what they can pay.  They do that if you owe the IRS.  They take a look at your income and your bills and determine what you can pay the IRS.  They could do the same thing about health care.  I think people would be surprised at what the government determined they could pay. 

But now, Marilyn, you are saying the government SHOULD get involved.  If they are envolved, it should be for the benefit of all, not just for those on Medicaid.  After all, they qualify for Medicaid because they are poor or broke.

I am in Minnesota..... almost all here are illegal. WHY on God's green earth would they come all the way up here otherwise.... Hell, it's cold in the winter and they work like hell in the summer.

Almost evryone in Minnesota is illegal? huh?

I think we should look into holistic sorcery......

XD

Well, at least it's an alternative LOL

Actually I do...somewhere in my bookshelves...

I see people mostly who are the haves putting down the have nots and bashing them, deriding them on  why they don't have health care.   Stating the government laws the constitution does not give anyone good health care.  I beg to differ we are supposed to all have equality under amendments 9 and 14.   I don't see much of an alternative.   I don't have it  and cannot get it or afford it as it is.    Nothing left after living expenses of mortgage, utilities, gas and oil and mandantory auto insurance. food etc.   Sometimes even shorted on the food.    No alternative.    If we pay it has to be affordable to EVERY  single AMERICAN and no free hand outs to the illegal aliens period.   Which is partly why we have problems.   They are given a free ride way to often over legal citizens who are without.

Illegal aliens get ZERO public benefits.

I've told you before, you just confuse people when you use facts.

Jen - equality under the law means we have the right to choose, to be free to provide for ourselves, not, at the point of a gun, be mandated to take care of all.  There are many alternatives, and some good onwe here, but NOT Chuck's mindset.  He doesn't read or comprehend when others give him info which disputes his opinion/figures/resoning.

Illegals get benefits....... please understand this...... THEY DO GET BENEFITS AND WE PAY FOR IT

Please explain to me, anyone, who are the 40 million people that are uninsured and why are they uninsured?

I ask because without an income I qualify for state medical insurance which is great care. What's wrong with everyone having it?

John,

Where do you live and are you calling Medicaid state medical insurance?  It takes more than low income to qualify for Medicaid, at least it has in the two states where I looked into it. Zero income was not enough to qualify.  It also took having virtually no savings or other assets to qualify.  In one state and savings and cash on hand that went beyond the amount to pay the next month's rent was enough to disqualify you. The other wanted to be paid back for any past  medical expenses the state paid on your behalf if you sold your house or later inherited any money or property. If you had more than one car in your name, they wanted you to sell all but one even if the additional car(s) were needed by other family members to get to and from work.  Speaking of family, don't have any working adults living with you, because the state considers their income your income even if it happened to be the other person's social security check!

Among the 40 million uninsured are the millions that are working and can provide for the theirs and their family's, other needs but do not make enough to afford pay the premiums the health insurance company want.  Then there are the many who simply can's get health insurance because private insurance companies will write policies only for those who are and have been healthy and a not likely to need more than minimal health care. 

how about the fortunate few who do qualify for medicaid.  how many doctor's in a tri-county area will accept a medicaid patient.  doctor's are refusing to take anything over the minimum that is required of them because they get much less money per patient than they get from traditional insurance companies.

you can include me in that 40 million count.  i'm unemployed.  my house is worth half what it was 5 years ago, but still worth more than what the state considers "poor".  my car is from 2000; not old enough to qualify me for assistance.  i can't pay an extra $200 a month for a health insurance premium.  i live in metro detroit.  do you think i'm going to find a job with benefits any time soon?  i think not!!!

Metro Detroit? That's one of the throw away cities. I don't think you'll find a job in Metro Detroit  this millenium.

Michelle-I feel you.  I was a single mom working for a temp agency on a long term assignment.  The agency didn't offer insurance, and I can't get "under-written" due to pre-existing conditions.  My son was on Medicaid, but we lived in Rochester Hills and the closest doctor was in Pontiac.  They need to change the law so that EVERY doctor has to accept a certain percentage of Medicaid patients.  My son nearly DIED because they refused to test him for allergies or asthma, until he had an attack in the middle of the doctor's office.  THEN they would only let me take him to the ER to get a single dose treatment.  I got remarried JUST so that my son and I could get insurance.

Remarried.... not for LOVE? Just for insurance?

JOHN, We are uninsured because the premiums are outrageous and we are self employed. So, maybe we should not pay our taxes instead?

I DEMAND an option that will put people over profits!

Have we become so different than what a few courageous people lead a revolt against during the birth of our country? Are we not a system that has a group of wealthy people who formulate laws and policies that benefit only themselves? Are there not masses who are being excluded from the table? Do our representatives speak for us, or for those who line their pockets and promise to continue to finance their bid for power??? Doesn't there seem to be a small number of people amassing wealth off the backs of people who work hard to pay their salaries, only to be denied coverage and left to die? WTF???

High Five Shannon!  Abso-freaking-lutely.  We have gone from being a compassionate caring country who stood up for the little guy, to a country full of greedy Marie Antoinette Syndrome people who could care less about anyone below their own socio-economic status.

I DEMAND an option that will put people over profits!

 

hear hear!

Why?  Businesses are supposed to make profits.  Medical care is a business. 

Marilyn, insurance companies are businesses meant to make profits. Health care is about CARING for peoples' health needs. I find it to be very sad that you don't think so.

I certainly hope that you don't find your self in a position to have your life be considered to be NOT PROFITABLE enough to sustain. But, I'm sure those insurance execs will be happy to know that you're willing to lay down and die so they can meet their profit margin.

Shannon, whether we like it or not, medical care is a business.  Hospitals are businesses.  And they must make profits.  If you were one of the investors, you wouldn't want your money to not earn a profit. 

Shannon - Marilyn is right - think about what you said.  W/o profit, how do they updae equipment?  bring in good doctors (as many are hosp. employed)?

Comparing life and profit is ridiculous comparison - not even remotely related.

If ANY busines did NOT make a profit, YOU WOULD HAVE NO JOB!

AND, putting it in the hands of the govt. takes away your freedom of choice as they can demand whatever they choose.  Cannot believe this is hard for so many to comprehend.

People need to quit living in the victim mode, pull themselves up by the boot straps and take care of themselves.

IF that is not possible, then there are charaties and religious organizateions etc. to take care of those.

I say, there are millions who are too lazy to work and want it for free.  Wonder what those totals are?

High unemployment was caused by govt. interferience in the private sector.  Rules and regulatins about everything.  THEY are the reason for the high cost of healthcare AND the reason for inflation and deflation - all factors to think about.

All I hear is "wha wha wha" "we want it" "we deserve it" "it's our right" bla bla bla.

Both of you really need to go back and check your economics. If all the hospitals and insurance companies suddenly went to a not for profit status they could continue to service the people. mny hospital are not for profit entities. The main difference is that a for profit structure has to distribute the left over funds to investors such as stock holders and high level managers. A not for profit reinvest its excess funds (profit) back into the business. In many cases the not for profit does much better than the for profit unit because the money doesn't have to be divided so many ways. And please do not say what one person said about non profits. People do get salaries and in some cases bonuses who work for non profits.

"High unemployment was caused by govt. interferience in the private sector. Rules and regulatins about everything. THEY are the reason for the high cost of healthcare AND the reason for inflation and deflation - all factors to think about."

I keep hearing some use this as an excuse for high health care cost as well as inflation and deflation. No doubt government intervention has some influence but I dare say not nearly in the amonts you prefer to believe. Without the safety requirements, the needed testing and other influences of medical service I am guessing you assume the health care indutry including the insurance companies would look out for our welfare. Without government intervention do you really thik drug manufacturers would do long range testing before putting their drugs o the market? I think not. As we all (sorry most) can see insurance companies do "NOT" have your best interest at heart. They cancell a far greater number of paid policies than is truly merited. They refuse to pay claims which are merited and cancell too many people dues to suddenly discovered pre existing conditions after thay hve taken your money. You can argue agains t governmen intervention all you wish but there is no way this system wold have lasted this long without goverenment controlls. And I do suggest you look further into the difference between profit and non profit structures. Many hospitals are in fact not for profit structures but they have sufficient funds to operate by not having to distribute so much money to investors.

"IF that is not possible, then there are charaties and religious organizateions etc. to take care of those."

If you really believe there are enough charities and religious organizations to take care of those then your argument has too many holes in it. If you argue the government does not have enough money to pay for these services can you please tell me how can charities and religious organizations pay for them?

Let's take a good look at Medicare which has Part A and B (Publically run). and Part C private from Medicares own data the Public parts administrative costs over the last 25 years averaged just six percent. Remember Ronnie Reagan, he believed that Private insurance companies could provide health insurance cheaper over the long run. What the Medicare adminstration found was that the Public ran at 6% administration costs and the Private needed to run at 30% administration cost. During the 93 to 97 years part C was brought down to parity to the public and Private companies dropped out, because it wasn't profitable enough. Then came back in thanks to the great white (elephant) george and channy show in 2003. G & C with the RNC rewrote Medicare they took 12% from part B (public plan yes those who are on part B do subsidize Part C) and then paid and additional 18% I believe. What is 12 and 18 I guess it is 30% in a roll over rate. Having learned their lesson the insurance companies set themselves up as HMO's and PPO's, but they also turned over the 70% additional funds they recieve over the public into added benefits such as eye glasses and dental coverage. Summerize the private insurance companies get A & B & additional C plus an additional 12% from B that non C's are paying. Just too slick. While the public costs you just part A & B. As I said they got smart they do apply $.7 of every $1. over what the public plan gets to do two things. Things like eye glasses and dental, but more importantly premiums or also lower aimed for poor elderly. If dem's try to get part C's government premiums down to the public level. Then they hurt the elderly poor. Which is part of the Dem's base. That is just so slick! Where did I get this information from C-Span. I love getting my info straight from the horses mouth. See C-Span is having a debate and info all this week on Medicare and Health Insurance reform. The last couple days they have had the guy who ran Medicare from the end of Reagan to the end of Clinton on. Also the guy representing the insurance companies. Good little program. If you want to get info you can trust I recommend you start watching C-span.

Medical care should NOT be a business. There are plenty of ways to make a profit other than off of the suffering of sick and dying people. All medical providers should operate as non-profit corporations. This doesn't mean they wouldn't earn a living. Wages and salaries are allowed costs which can be expensed. Also owning the hospital in which one practices and dictates what are necessary services for patients should be considered a conflict of interest if we want to reduce health care cost in this country.

I do not have Medicaid. I have a state insurance policy very similar to the insurance policy my girlfriend has. She works for the state as a teacher. We both have Medica. I am not disabled. I am retired and have no assets and no income, no bank accounts and nothing owned in my name. I have a great state insurance policy, can see doctors within the package and there are many to choose from, almost every doctor in Minneapolis, and have prescriptions for a $3 co-pay. No co-pay on office visits. No co-pay on hospital visits. Why doesn't everyone else have insurance like this?

Because Minnesota is one of the kinder states that subsidizes health care for those who need it.  I don't think that many other states have as good an application and evaluation process as MN does.

Hawaii has a better plan Dano

Michigan has nuthin', Colonel.  Well, there IS a minimal plan for kids, and there's federal Medicare or MedicAid if you're on welfare.  If you're a reasonably healthy adult with a non-union, blue collar job, self-employed, working for a small business, or any of a dozen or so other positions... f'rgit it.  Your employer ain't got none, and neither do you.

OR if your a single mom, working at a temp agency, hoping that you MIGHT be hired in, you MIGHT get a Medicaid "spend down".  However, you have to spend at least $1000 in a month in "medical expenses" ie, tylenol, ace bandages, a trip to the DR, etc. before they will pay for anythin THAT month.  If you happen to be poor, but live in what they consider an "affluent" area, they use that in their equation, even though they aren't supposed to, and decide that if you can barely afford the rent, and are going to food banks, that the area you live in is an "asset".

Minnesota Care is great for those who qualify.  In the old days it started as a fund for those who could not get coverage anywhere else due to pre-existing conditions.  Then it grew into what it is today.  I know a lot of college students that use the program but the income quidelines are very strict and any shift in income with change your premiums.  You are supposed to report changes quarterly and have an "audit" annually.

Good point, John.  Many states (and many individual counties) have excellent programs, but most people don't even know about them, and don't take the time or effort to find out about them.  They would rather rant and rave and complain that there is no help available.  There are also free clinics in almost every large city, but many people won't use them because they have to wait "too long".  Again, they would rather claim that no help exists.

What everyone wants is FREE health care that they have designed - using their doctors, without long waits, etc.  It's not going to happen.  Health care is not free.  Every doctor and nurse has to be paid.  Every piece of equipment has to be paid for and has to be maintained.  It's not free and never will be free.

 

 

You are the only person I've seen who INSISTS that it would be "free" the rest of keep saying that we know it's NOT free.

Why do you keep insisting people want free health care?

Thanks Carol.

Ann and I live together, her income is not considered as part of my own. This isn't a subject I'm particularly interested in and know nothing about it.

What's the matter with that huge creative liberal intellect you got there Chuck?

Is the only thing you can come up with is government run health care? You got no ideas either.

The reason liberals like the idea of government run health care is because it is an easy answer...to come up with an alternative answer to our health care problems is HARD!

Hi Dan E,

Isn't it a little cold up there in Alaska with Palin?  It's always the trouble with people that resist a change to the system that too many people are getting health care that covers 'everything'.  I don't believe there is a massive invasion of aliens on the health care system.  I find that an empty argument for those who think we've been out in the sun too long just because we think people should be able to see a doctor without turning over their grocery money in the process.

Um-m-m-m-m... did you miss the part where I said it was up to YOU to come up with an alternative?  Yep, I'm of the opinion that a government involvement of major porportions is gonna be requried.  If I'm wrong, YOU have to show me something else.  THAT's what this thread is about.

No Chuck it's just that the subject is so complicated that for you to ask people to provide an alternative is not reasonable.

Actually I'd like to see if you have a clue as to what would be involved, what would have to be tackled to have real change in our health care system, to actually make it better rather than just giving it to the government.

So either you want to keep the status quo we have, or you can't think of a viable alternative.  I'm wondering which it is...

Actually Elizabeth,

Yes keep the existing system and begin improving it. We should not be seeking to make it worse by giving it to the feds.

HOW would you improve our existing system? 

We can't sustain the existing system. Patients, doctors, hospitals, we are all going broke with the huge built in profits in the US system. doctor's costs for equipment and insurance are high, patients can't afford what they need in tests and care. ALL parts of the current system must have reform.

i am on a fixed income and have no money left for anything i am retried if i had to take money out for medical i would have to stop eating i just get by now

There are people who live with pain and who suffer needlessly. There are people who are dying. Our health care system needs to be fixed. There is something obscene about not giving care to desperately ill children and adults.  There is something obscene about the high cost of medications.

If the Republican Party wants to fight this, they will lose.

Mass insurance is so awful right now, because the funds were never really put into place. Obama's plan to tax the wealthy is a great idea.

That's right Kathryn it's a great plaln unless you are one of the fortunate ones who are successful.

Obama and the liberals want to make it so it doesn't pay to work hard and get a business successful.  They want to hold everyone down to street level so they can control.   There's no incntive to become successful if the government is going to take it all away from you.

That is  the Socialist way not the American way. 

The "American Way" used to be that we were compassionate, and understood that we needed to help each other, and that some of us need more help than others.  NOW it's "I've got mine, so screw you."

Taxing the "wealthy" isn't going to work.  What incentive is there to be successful if your hard work will go to someone else's pocket?

Elizabeth, the American Way used to be that people would do everything in their power to live the American Dream.  They worked hard.  They worked together.  They celebrated people's suceesses (rather than envying them or wanting to take it from them).  And because people DID work together and DID celebrate their neighbor's successes, those neighbors were more willing to give and share what they had...temporarily...to help people.

But if you think you are OWED something that I have, you're wrong.  If you think the government OWES you something, you're wrong. 

Marilyn, the American Way used to be that 90% of teh people (including their kids) worked for 5% for starvation wages (the other 5% just starved), and got fired if they got sick.

I worked hard to be successful. I never spent more than I could afford. I put money away for retirement. Why would I give a care for someone less fortunate or hard-working than me? BECAUSE I want to live in a great country where nobody lives on the streets because their mental illness prevents them from holding down a job and having the insurance they need to function. I don't want to live in a community where children go hungry...and grow up thinking nobody cares about them,s o why should they care about anyone else.
You see, in the end, I care about those less fortunate than me because it benefits me to!

benefits me, too...not to.

Sandy F. Sep 3, 2009, 11:00pm EDT
It's easy to see that some who have everything believe everyone in need is lazy. That has been disproved time and time again.

I raised 3 kids alone when I was divorced by their father, I helped my daughter raise her 2, I took care of my mother for 9 years while she died of cancer. We all had insurance and paid what was left over. None of us was ever on welfare but I had to use every dollar I earned to do it. At 55 when I thought I could begin to put away for myself, I became seriously ill with a chronic disease. I couldn't work any more and retired on SS Disability at 59. So I have no savings and my SS is lower than it would have been if I could have worked and I missed the possibility of saving on top of it. My small company employer barely had ins. let alone sick leave or a pension plan.

So here I am, and I resent the idea that lucky people who had money and made more off people like me working their health away for their boss's savings have the nerve now to call me lazy. I worked lots of overtime, had to to make ends meet. I never got any child support and neither did my daughter. I'd rather be able to work even now at 70. Still, I contribute what I can to help other who are even worse off. I'm helping my granddaughter get through school because her husband decided being a husband and father was a drag. She's going to be a nurse, 4.0 student. But mean-spirited people begrudge her the Pell Grant that makes it possible for her to get training and a good job that will keep her off welfare. Class hatred is rampant in this country. And most of the scare stuff out there about illegals is just plain lies. Very few states give true illegals welfare, however their children, born here are as American as any of us. And we should care if they are sick.

This is not the USA that I have known and loved and that my father died for in WWII. Seems to me that his sacrifice and those of all our servicemembers have been poorly honored in the past twenty years as the self-righteous have taken over the country. Now they are so mean-spirited they want to keep anyone but themselves from having the bare necessities. Such hatred is not sustainable and divides this country they gutted for their wealth. Let them pay, I say.

Featured in the Triple Name Club.

I am currently on medicaid and so are my 2 kids but we won't be when they review my case after receiving my letter about my recent marriage. It's supposed to be based on HOUSEHOLD income but because I am now married they won't cover any of us. The HOUSEHOLD income has NOT changed just my marital status. It makes no sense to me. They are basically saying that I'm the only one responsible for my kids because I wasn't married to their father, even though we lived together. Now that we ARE married we don't qualify because NOW he's responsible for all of us. Where's the logic in that? The kids have always been eligible to be put on his plan through work but they were still accepted to medicaid. NOTHING has changed as far as the kids are concerned. I am unemployed but he wasn't legally responsible for me until we were married. So now I lose my benefits and we can't afford for me or the kids to be put on his plan from work. We'll have NO insurance because we can't afford to pay the premiums for 3 more people. I'm all for government health care if it means we CAN afford to have insurance for the entire family.

But Rachel, someone paid for you to have Medicaid.  And someone will have to pay for you to have any other government controled medical care. 

I understand that. Taxes paid for Medicare and taxes will pay for government healthcare. With government healthcare though, I'd still be eligible for coverage based on income. I would hope it wouldn't be based on whether or not I'm married or single. I have worked 40+ hours since I graduated high school 16+ years ago, until January 2008. I am only unemployed because I have 2 small children and couldn't afford daycare for them and still can't. I am well aware that taxes pay for medicaid and I've paid taxes since I was 14, when I got my first job.

A reasonable premium can and should be paid by most to support the general healthcare, only the really poor would have subsidized premiums.
That's why it needs to be a plan for everyone and good enough for everyone's basic care. Then the rich can pay their hard earned money to fight aging and live forever all their heart's desire. Meanwhile the rest of us can benefit from collective bargaining and lower costs for better healthcare without a built in profit for those who get wealthy off the sick.

Community. That's what it is about. You live in one...you benefit from the rewards...and you share i the responsibility.

I want to clarify that I am NOT trying to get free healthcare or insurance. I just want premiums that we can afford.

C'mon, folks...

WHAT IS YOUR ALTERNATIVE?

THAT's what THIS thread is about.  It's NOT about MY alternative.  We already know you don't like THAT.  So-o-o--o...

WHAT IS YOUR ALTERNATIVE?

They aren't going to have one, unless it's just a different version of the alternative that we've allready laid out.

As a senior on the present system, which some seem to have forgotten have PAID into it all their working years.

I would like to have dependable health care.

Sorry, but Norene can have the present system (She is going to get old someday in case she does not know it, and her income will be sless that time unless she joins Bill Gates in the Billionaire pool).

I wish her the best of luck at it.

AND as Ms. MAS ages, she's going to have medical issues.  She's going to want to be able to see a doctor and get the care she needs.  However, if we keep going the way we are, only the truly wealthy will be able to do that.

OH, and as soon as she DOES get sick, that will automatically qualify as a "pre-existing condition" meaning she won't be insurable either.

So right. Wait till she sees how much fun getting doctors is then.

Your forgetting the 20 percent that Medicare does NOT pay. I'm lucky enough to be on an HMO that only costs $7.20 a month for the premium. But I have friends who are not.
I also have friends who work at menial jobs just to get insurance to pay that 20 percent.

I don't know how to add to this thread in any whole or meaningful way.  What I do have to say is that the opposition to any meaningful change in the system, to include the uninsured, will fight tooth and nail to say the cost is too much, or there will be rationing of services, or the new system will get between the docor and patient relationship.

My response to that is that there iIS effective rationing to those uninsured, just not rationing to THEIR medical treatment, if they are insured to that extent.  The costs are already borne by ER services that are subsidized in one way or another, paid by hospital foundations or others.

The trouble is that the opposition is so daunting that a plan can't get formulated with everyone involved to change what we have now.  Part D of Medicare took years to get legislated, how much longer will Universal coverage take, meanwhile costs continue to go up?

Not just the UNinsured, the UNDERinsured are in (almost) the same boat.

Also, people don't seem to understand that there is no effective competition in health care insurance NOW.  You can compare rates and get lower rates on car insurance.  One thing for sure is that we have to remove employment from the health insurance equation.  You don't have to be employed to get car,  renters, house, etc insurance, why do you have to be employed to get health insurance?

And if we don't get started, it will just get worse as time goes by us.

First off, will we ever learn.  To put our health care and health decision making in the hands of  complete liars-bumblers-crooks-degenerates-criminals-aka, our wonderful Politicians.  It astounds me that people are so eager to entrust their life in the hands of these political louses.  These boob's have no business or pedigree to have any say in our health decision making.

This disaster in waiting health-care run by political fools is so bad that the morons in Congress have passed a amendment that says:  The members of Congress are-guess what- these crooks are exempt from any plan-Do you get it yet?-Members of unions are also going to be excused from government health-care- starting to get it yet?.

Do not look for any Kennedy-Schumer-Pelosi-Obama-Bush-Cheney, sitting next to you or standing in line at your local government run clinic.  Please get it.

Not only will these incompetent- dou-fusess- not be joining you on line, they will be accessing the best medical care available and guess who pays their health care insurance?  "SUCKERS" named Mary and Joe-the hard working American man and woman.

Please it is mandatory for all The Mary and Joe's to let these weasels know that the game is over- Tell these thieves and leeches, first to pay for their health insurance and that any plan has to have these idiots joining it and us on line at the nearest government clinic.

Now to answer your question Chuck-   HSA- health savings accounts have worked very well in many states-allow cross state insurance companies to sell to other states.  State insurance rates have sky-rocketed because of Government mandates put on what has to be covered.  Health insurance should be sold like auto ins. you go to an agent tell them what you want covered-aroma therapy-NO, Silicone Breast- NO-YA-DA-YA-DA.   This approach has worked very well where it has been able to do business- where it has not been able to be tried in in states like mine NY is because politicians force idiotic mandates on ins. companies.

Everybody is required to have auto insurance in America if you drive  a car, there is no reason that in America we can't figure out a way to get affordable health ins. for everyone.

If nothing else could we all agree that these sleazy politicians pay for their  Health insurance out of the paycheck they get from we the  SUCKERS!

I for one am tired of paying for Patrick Kennedys latest stay in Drug-Rehab!!! 

First, where do you get the idea that the health insurance company is any more qualified than a politician?

Second, we allready pay for Congress, and their spouses to have A-1 healthcare for the rest of their lives.

Third, have you ever used an HSA?  They SUCK.  More paperwork than you can imagine, AND if you don't use every penny in it by the end of the year, you LOSE it.   It's just GONE>

Doctors even refuse to accept them because of that paperwork. I went through a nightmarish time trying to find one for my mother in the late 80's. Bet it's even worse now.

"put our health care and health decision making in the hands of complete liars-bumblers-crooks-degenerates-criminals-aka, our wonderful Politicians."

By all means NO! Let's leave it in the hands of the complete liars-bumblers-crooks-degenerates-criminals-aka, that it's in NOW. The insurance companies!

I'm with you as to the only reasonable alternative, Chuck, so it's still my opinion, Single-payer, that's affordable. Why? Because nothing else makes sense.

By the way, those of you who are talking about "free' medical care at emergency rooms, apparently don't live in Connecticut-- I've been once and am still paying that bill off from 2007, so I obviously did not get free care.

Marilyn, I am still paying the co-payments from 2006 when I had breast cancer and I have decent insurance. I rather keep what I have then have to wait for surgery with the government running the show. There are a lot of low cost insurance policies. When my son turns 18 I will have to pay extra for his insurance and I would rather do that then depend on the government to take their time if he needed surgery. God Forbid. I am flying to Ct this monday morning. can't wait. Had to add that in.

You DO understand that, had you not had "decent insurance," you would've had a GREAT chance of having no treatment for breast surgery (except radical mastectomy and go home to recover - assuming recovery was in the cards at that point)?

I have already stated my alternative in my previous post. The question is if it would ever be implemented. If not, it's as useless as a pork chop in a synagogue. I still think it is a good alternative, however.

Insurence companies will fight it just because they make less money. A young woman is battling one right now, and she will die without it. It's all bottom line cash with insurence companies.

Hi Marilyn N:

Point taken.  The costs of ER care far exceeds the cost of a trip to the clinic, though, no matter whether that care is taken care of.  I used to pay out-of-pocket expense for medications that were not generic and that was a monthly cost that couldn't be offset by a lower cost drug.  The cost of preventative care is often, if not always much lower than the cost later on.

The real question is whether the aggregate cost of care should be taken and that cost insured to everyone, according to their ability to pay.  Too often people are set back by medical costs, unemployed and lose much of their lives former worth.  It is often an ideological question, as well as a moral one.

I really like the fact that people are offering up alternative plans regarding this most important issue.  If only those with the capacity to really affect change would debate it in such a civilized fashion, we'd probably be on our way to providing affordable health care to all America citizens.

Thanks for posting this article to our group,  Barack Obama's Presidential Appointments, Bills and Policies. (Join Our Group and Post Your Articles. We Love Opposing Points of Views)

It is now our latest FEATURED post.

Lloyd

Thanx, Lloyd... but, BOY-oh-BOY was it hard to get those alternatives.  Folks are just too used to bashing to do the necessary thinking sometimes.

Your not doing much thinking either, now are you Chuck?

Your idea of sending it to the government isn't going to make it any better, it's simply a matter of, do something even if it's wrong.....Kinda like the Democrat/Obama porkulus bill.

Giving government health care will not solve the problems and it will create lots more.

Can't you think of anything else to do?

I think our efforts refuting all the bashing and "Just Say No" remarks are starting to bear fruit.

I believe many are starting to come out of their bunkers and are now seeing that we must work together.

. Our Democracy will only prosper if those on the Right and those on the Left finally understand that we are all in the same boat.

Lack of affordable health care, record home foreclosures, record bankruptcies, unaffordable higher education and working while still being poor, knows no boundaries. It doesn't discriminate. It doesn't care what race, ethnicity or social class you belong to. We are all one. We all feel the effects.

Great post.

Thanks.

Dan E:  Nope - I've done a LOT of thinking, and broad-scale government involvement, even with something like the Israeli model, is all I can come up with.

This thread is for YOU to come up with an alternative, which you, specifically, have not.  Bash away, then... but it's not of much value.

"This thread is for YOU to come up with an alternative, which you, specifically, have not.  Bash away, then... but it's not of much value."

Please Dan.  Bring something to the table.  I'm waiting.

Well Lloyd,

I'm wondering why an intellectual like Chuck can't think of any better alternatives than giving it to the feds?

And why people like you think it will be better under governmental control?

"I'm waiting."

I've already explained how monumentus I think changing the health care system for the better will be.

Chuck is not interested in alternatives, his and yours goal is to grow the government into something that will take care of all of our problems.

Chuck,

If you have actually thought about it then you have come to the same conclusions I have, that it will be a monumental task to make our health care system better, but you have resigned yourself to accepting the easy way out just to give it to the government.

Even though you know it won't make health care any better.

"And why people like you think it will be better under governmental control?"

Dan it's because the private sector has failed the American people. Greed, corruption and putting profits ahead of people have bought out the worst in Capitalism. Right now we have profit driven monopolies only looking after their own profit driven interests. Wall Street Fraud, Bernie Madoff, Deregulation, Golden Parachutes, Corruption.

What we are going to do is offer a competitive alternative to those whom monopolize things like the health care and energy industries.

I understand that Government hasn't been very effective in the past, but it's a new day. We have a President born without a Silver Spoon in his mouth. One who actually empathizes with the plight of Average Everyday Americans. I believe that we will face some difficult times at first, but in the end we will all be better off.

I know that GM will soon be making efficient hybrid vehicles. I know that we will see an increase in alternative energy sources such a Wind Mill Farms and the increased use of Solar Panels. I know that we will soon reap the benefits of Preventative Medicine as opposed to waiting for the uninsured to use their local hospital room as their primary health care source.

Did you know that it now cost nearly $1000 dollars to treat an ear infection at the local hospital emergency room as opposed to paying under $100 dollars at a local primary physician's office? Don't you agree that this is financially irresponsible and needs to be addressed?

These are the things I'm waiting for you to address. We on the Left are working feverishly to fix these problems. These are the things that affect millions of Americans.

President Obama is doing nothing less than what he promised during his quest to become President of the United States. Why are you so surprised that he is keeping his word and that those of use whom supported him still choose to back his efforts?

Tell me about your alternatives. I'm waiting.

Dan thinks a single payer system is the "easy way out", I think "just say no", "keep the status quo" is the REAL easy way out.

Keeping the status quo keeps over 40 million Americans without affordable health care.

Would you care to walk in the shoes of those folks?

Just think about the fear of getting sick.  Think about choosing between medicine and food.  Think about loosing your home because a family member got a prevetable illness like Prostate Cancer.  How about a woman choosing to ignore that lump on her breast because she don't know where to turn.

EVERY AMERICAN SHOULD AT LEAST BE AFFORDED A TWICE A YEAR MEDICAL CHECKUP.

It's in their best interests and ours.

Amen Lloyd!

"Greed, corruption"

All with the full knowledge and involvement of governmental officials.

How is it going to get better by handing it over to the people involved in it's corruption?

"What we are going to do is offer a competitive alternative to those whom monopolize things like the health care and energy industries."

No you are not, you are going to make it worse. It is already determined that obama's plan will leave millions without insurance....where does it get better?

Where does innovation come from Lloyd?

It comes from private enterprise, innovation in any field will stop when the government takes control.

"I know that GM will soon be making efficient hybrid vehicles."

G.M. already had the largest line up of hybrids than any auto maker on the planet, what will happen is that they will be forced to make smaller vehicles that a lot of people don't want to buy and that G.M. can not make a profit on....result another bankruptcy of G.M.

"I know that we will see an increase in alternative energy sources such a Wind Mill Farms and the increased use of Solar Panels."

I heard Pickens put his wind farms on hold, naturalists/environmentalists are vowing to contest the installations of wind farms due to the harm they do to wildlife.

"I know that we will soon reap the benefits of Preventative Medicine as opposed to waiting for the uninsured to use their local hospital room as their primary health care source."

And you know this how?

"Did you know that it now cost nearly $1000 dollars to treat an ear infection at the local hospital emergency room as opposed to paying under $100 dollars at a local primary physician's office?"

Well Lloyd I did not know the exact cost but I am aware of the use of emergency rooms for treatment of common ailments. As a matter of fact one of my daughters and grand children is a recipient of medical care provided by the state, and due to the current state of our medical system she takes her children to the emergency room for treatment because the wait to get into see a doctor is days and sometimes weeks, and when the government gets a hold of health care there will be even more people using the emergency room for treatment because the waits will be longer.

"We on the Left are working feverishly to fix these problems."

No you are not you are not fixing a damn thing you're going to make it worse.

You're in a make believe world thinking that the government can fix health care when you know that the government hasn't been able to fix a GD thing since WWII and that's only because the government is best at is breaking things.

"Tell me about your alternatives. I'm waiting."

Make the existing system better.

KEEP my own insurance. When I need to go to a Dr. I cannot wait. Can you imagine having something really bad wrong with you and have to wait months for surgery. My friends who don't have insurance are on medicaid which pays everything for them.

Your friends without insurance have no jobs?  ALL your friends without insurance?  You really SHOULD take a poll of all your friends.  You'd likely be surprised - a LOT surprised.

Annmarie, how did they get Medicare? You seem to be saying that people without insurance qualify for Medicare.

I HAVE insurance and it took 5 months, 4 GIs, and SEVERAL hospital stays, and trips to the ER to get the surgery I needed.  I was slowly starving to death and being told it was "all in my head" or a "side effect of my medication".  Talk about the easy way out.  NOW, if I'd been able to get the surgery the FIRST time, and not have to jump through all of those hoops, think about how much could have been saved.

ALL I KNOW IS I NEED HEALTH INSURANCE RIGHT NOW I DONT HAVE ANY AND I DONT KNOW WHAT I WOULD DO IF SOMETHING HAPPENED MY JOB DOES NOT OFFER INSURANCE THAT IS WORTH A CRAP IM NOT GOING TO PAY A LOT OF MONEY FOR SOMETHING THAT NOT WORTH IT

I was very lucky. My druggist suggested Humana. It is a HMO. I pay $7.50 a month, and my co pay is very low. You might look into it to see if it works for you.

You can always walk into a clinic

Exactly how effective do you think 'clinic' care is for major health issues?  Tell you what... drop your "decent insurance," and go the clinic route for at least a year if you believe it's a real alternative.

I'm sure that you would never consider that - especially as a cancer survivor (congratulations on that, BTW).

The only clinic available in my neck of the woods is called the "Hospital Emergency Room".

WHAT clinic?

This is my preferred alternative.

look up insurance and put your zip code in. iT  should list clinics that have to take you. Hopefully it will help. I don't have much money but with my health issues I choose to pay a lot so that I know I will have coverage that I need. I do without spending on lots of things.

Like food?  Mortgage or rent?  Winter-wear?  Transportation?  What exactly do you go without?  Understand me... I'm rowing the other oar in exactly your boat.  I have to buy the most expensive insurance my employer o