Everyone Pees the Same Color in the Pool

Dreadful !!!

I think a lot of it still has to do with rearing~what one feeds into their children's heads from the get go which more than not dictates where they will choose to habitate and who they choose to habitate amongst~

f****** sad isn't it?~

Purr is right.  Racists are MADE not born.

Exactly right. Bigotry and ignorance go together and move right down the generational line. There are a lot of very stupid people in this world and these kind of bigots are at the very bottom of that pile. When they infect their kids with this crap the kids end up exactly in the same place of ignorance and sub-human perspective. I don't have a problem swimming with anyone but bigots. I guess you could say I'm bigoted against bigots.

and please tell me that they sooooo did not use the word 'complexion'  wtf?

Racism is still alive and well, unfortunately. 

To attempt to answer your question, I think sometimes it can be unconscious.  Some people can't escape the fear that was driven into them as children about the "bad" parts of town.  For some it will always be a choice.

When I taught at an inner city preschool where NONE of our children were caucasian except for Fiona, and we took our class to places of entertainment such as the Liberty Science Center or the Please Touch Museum, or a lake in a predominantly suburbian area, I cannot tell you how faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaast the pigment~less mommies grabbed their children and pulled them out of our vicinity~the expressions on their faces said it all~

pretty f****d, eh?

Thank you for posting to gutterGirls~featured

I wonder how many families of any color are members of that GATED club? And the word "complexion" -- either the man who wrote that is a Godforsaken fool, or his secretary wrote it for him and did that on purpose. Have we suddenly gone back to 1960?

Horrible.  But I am not surprised sadly.  Look at the people on Gather.

Yes, segregation and racism exists - in all communities (as seen by the ranting sermons of Rev. Wright).

I do have to wonder about who managed the club were thinking.  Whether we like it or not, the people in that club paid to be amongst people like themselves.  They have chosen to be among people who are wrong and stupid.  Usually in places like that there are committees who decide when and if the facilities can be used by people who are not members and are not among the "wrong and stupid" folks.  Obviously, they did not communicate to the rest of the "wrong and stupid" that they were going to allow others who were "right and bright" to visit the facilities.

You know what I often wonder?  Why do those who are "right and bright" even want to be anywhere near those who are "wrong and stupid" in the first place?  I certainly don't want to be where I'm not wanted or appreciated, no matter what is the reason.

You wonder what they were thinking?  Probably about the same thing you think when you see a black man or child. 

So, what do we do when a self-identified "wrong and stupid" drops in on a "right and bright" thread. Should we tell her we came here to be with people who are like us and she isn't welcome?

Well at least she didn't say "but the Clintons".

Lori, what do I see when I see a black man or child?  A child of God.  It doesn't matter what skin color anyone has - to me.  I have no idea why you would say that.

However...Sandy...these people are obviously idiots.  Why not let them be idiots all by themselves?  If they want to pay huge amounts of money to keep us all out - and I guarantee that it doesn't really matter about skin color with them, it's about whether you live in the right community and have lots of money - why should we want anything to do with them?  I know I don't.

I think you both missed and proved Sandy's point simultaneously.

No, Kris, I know exactly how Sandy feels about me.  She makes no bones about it.

The letter would so be in my hot little hand on my way to the EEOC and a Civil Rights Attorney who likes preening for the press.

It really just makes me sad that this can still happen.

"ohhh, isn't he TAN"

"ohhh, doesn't he have a wonderful COLOR"

"ohhhh, mixed babies are so cute"

IF I HEAR ONE MORE MOTHERF****R  vomit forth these sentiments at me or my daughters ever again when we are out with my grandson I'm going to so loose it and verbally bearte the f*** out of their condescending as*es

they are transparent as the day is long and don't even have a clue~

sorry for the rant here EM~it's just tiring to have to deal with stupidity and ignorance every single day~

And yet, my son as a wee child, who was teased horribly because he's so white, looked at a mixed race girl in his kindergarten (and he had no idea about that fact that she was mixed race and even having seen both of  her parents did not still know - he didn't know about race at all at that age) and said he was going to ask God to make us all that beautiful caramel color - so that people would stop making fun of him for being so white and of black people for being so dark.  His comment was innocent, and I had to agree with him.  If we could choose, that would be an awesome choice.

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. . . .I will just shut up

Marilyn keep telling yourself that and one day you might convince someone its the truth.

And the preschool story is completely made up.  Nice try though.

ok. . . .I can't shut the f*** up~  THERE HAS TO BE A REASON WHY YOUR SON WOUOLD FEEL THAT WAY ABOUT HIS OWN PIGMENT! SH** LIKE THAT DOES NOT JUST POP UP OUT OF NOWHERE! Everything has a cause and a reason.

No, it's not, Lori. And if you can read properly, it says kindergarten, not preschool.  My son even remembers when someone told him that the girl was "black" and he didn't believe the guy.  He had a crush on the girl, so he remembers how beautiful she was, especially her color, since he was teased.  FYI, my son was so pale that when he WAS in preschool, his teachers asked if I made him stay inside all day.  Nope, he played outside every day, just didn't burn or tan.

Yes, there was a reason.  He was being teased by other kids, so he noticed skin color. But he didn't know how to define it at that age, because we had not made an issue about definitions.

AND why would he have an issue believing that the little girl was black?  If there was no issue already present he wouldn't have even given it a second thought BECAUSE KINDERGARDEN aged children DO NOT think in colors unless that perception is already present within them.

then he wouoldn't have had an issue with color at all~

Marilyn kindergartners dont think or react like that.

The story is made up and no where near convincing.

And my guess was that your child didnt get harassed...if that really happened....because he was white.

He got harassed for repeating at school what he had heard at home.

Sadly your child had to pay for your bigotry.

I TAUGHT KINDERGARDEN AND PRESCHOOL FOR YEARS AND COLOR WAS NEVER AN ISSUE WITH THE CHILDREN, NEVER, UNLESS IT WAS ALREADY IMPRINTED IN THE CHILD'S MIND!

Exactly Purr.

gad I hate this sh**~I thought my baby Jay was gonna have a less f***** worl with a lesser amount of bigoted sh** to deal with~guess I was wrong~

Purr my love it is changing.  As my wise friend Sherly O pointed out...people are noticing.  Back in the 80's this wouldnt have made national news maybe the 3rd page of the local paper and that is it.

Young people are noticing and realizing that the sterotypes that they have all heard are wrong.  They are realizing that Marilyns way of thinking is something they dont want to repeat.

We can stop racism one child at a time.

Sorry it was my wise friend Sandy Knauer that pointed out people are noticing.  When you have as many intelligent friends as I do its hard to keep track.  Sorry Sandy.

=)  I know~it's the dulled mentalities forcefed hate from the time they were born that depress the f*** out of me cuz I actually feel so sad for them that they never had anyone take them aside and go, "Look kid, you're being fed a crock of sh**, now here's a new pair of perspectives that'll make you so much less miserable which in turn will keep you from making others miserable."

I know Purr. 

My, I think I was just referred to as 'wise'!  You made my day, Lori. :-)

Purr - I was a teacher, too, in elementary school back in the 80's.  You are correct - it was extremely rare for a child to notice skin color, or disability, really.  They just all saw each other as children.

As the song says, 'you have to be carefully taught'.  That's from South Pacific, for all you yun-un's.  :-)

"You've got to be taught
To hate and fear,
You've got to be taught
From year to year,
It's got to be drummed
In your dear little ear
You've got to be carefully taught.

You've got to be taught to be afraid
Of people whose eyes are oddly made,
And people whose skin is a diff'rent shade,
You've got to be carefully taught.

You've got to be taught before it's too late,
Before you are six or seven or eight,
To hate all the people your relatives hate,
You've got to be carefully taught!"

Things have changed a good deal since my kids were born in the early 80's. My daughter never heard the word "mulatto" until last year. She wasn't quite sure how to react.

My kids took crap from both blacks and whites for not being "enough" of either. But as they grew older, they found more kids like themselves. Power, safety, pride in numbers. And now they have a President who understands what they've been through.

Purrrrrr- I know what's you're going through.

"Aren't those great CURLS?! I have to pay a fortune to get curls like that!"

From a mother of another 3 year old in my daughter's HeadStart class to her son (This was around 1985)- "That's the kind of girl you want to have for a girlfriend - she's got fine hair and those light eyes. Make your mommy some pretty grandbabies with a girlfriend like that."  Can we say teaching selective breeding to toddlers?

kids, yes even young kids, can be viciously cruel to each other even when they have no idea of what they speak.  Yes, they are mouthing what they have heard elsewhere, but where did they learn it is such a wonderful trait to put down anyone you can come up with a nasty nickname for?

Lori, you're wrong.  We never talk about skin color at home.  To me, all people are the same.  It's what's in their hearts that matter.  That's what God says, and that's what I believe.  We're all unique, of course, no matter what skin color we wear.  We have unique personalities, and that's what I always told my son to embrace. 

FYI, my son's school room was K-2nd grade in one room with one techer, just like in the Little House on the Prairie days.  So his kindergarten experience was probably different than most.  We put him there because he was so bright.  In kindergarten he was reading at a 4th grade level, but they were afraid he wouldn't comprehend or remember at that level, so they allowed him to read with the 2nd graders.

"Is this a matter of habit or is it an unconscious choice?"

Neither - it's a matter of conscious choice.  It's a matter of chosing ignorance and bigotry, and the fear that supports both. 

I tutor disadvantaged kids on the weekend.   The last session of the year, we took the kids to a children's science museum located in an up-scale town in the area.  While we were walking around with our group, there was a group of all-white kids celebrating a birthday party at the museum.  I noticed that as our group neared their group, a couple of the moms herded them away from us, keeping an eye on my group the entire time.  I felt like slapping them.  Their kids didn't care or notice, but you can bet my kids noticed. 

BTW - my kids are all 2nd through 4th graders, and none of them were armed.

Great Article by EM JAY (во как!) W. and Great Post Sheryl O.

I think that the Dynamics of the Economy and the need for Recovery will drive Business to be more Tolerant ( Their Club is a Business ). And you always need consumers to buy food, clothing, visit the supermarket, etc...

There is a Famous movie about the "Deacons of Defense" - The Deacons for Defense and Justice were an armed self defense African American civil rights organization in the U.S. Southern states during the 1960s.The organization practiced self-defense methods in the face of racist oppression that was carried out by Jim Crow Laws; local and state agencies; and the Ku Klux Klan.

I collect those movies and I have to get this one.

The interesting thing is that in the Movie the Ku Klux Klan is losing the support of White Rich Businesmen ... Why ???

Because Blacks are consumers and labor and the Rich White needed the Blacks to make more money and improve their Fortunes.

The Rich Whites were first to quit the Ku Klux Klan and the poor Whites stayed. The movie shows the gatherings and meetings of the KKK and their discussions.

I have more informations on these "Racism" movies here :

Big List of Links - Racism in Cinema Art - Racism in Art - Many Videos to laugh, weep and enjoy !

Vicente Duque 

Valid point, Vicente - hard economic times make all people selfish and fearful of many things, including people who are not 'like them'.  But, these moms were upper middle class (this is a wealthy town) - no excuse like economic woes there. 

Very interesting, Vincente.

The KKK has always harbored those whites that feel discriminated against. They never catch on that the reason they feel that is economic. Their problem isn't being white enough, it's that they don't have enough green.

Sheryl - I used to take a group of innercity kids to a science museum here for activities. These kids lived 10 minutes away from the center but had never been. The staff was great about making them feel they belonged along with the suburban kids, many of whom were white and better educated.

Oh, and just sayin'....if you eat asparagus, your pee turns a lovely shade of green. :-)

Shamrock shakes from McDonalds turns your poopy green.

thanks for the warning, Lori.  can't say I've ever had one, nor ever will.

:

No problem Sheryl.  I believe in full disclosure in fact when this happened to err a friend of mine I demanded that McDonalds put a warning label on the shamrock shakes...they told me to leave the establishment.

I heard this disgusting story last night. It's hard (maybe impossible?)  to believe his use of the word complexion was innocent.

Racism does still exist. The good news is that it is newsworthy when it happens. And in the process of discussing this news, we get to see who around us is guilty. That's progress.

I am with you on the choice of words used. How can the swim club claim innocence when they used that word in such an unconventional way?

Even if we know who is guilty, what do we do? You can't force someone not to have racist attitudes.

No, we can't force others not to have racist attitudes. But we can choose not to befriend them, patronize their businesses, or allow them to act on their attitudes. We can point and laugh, and let them know they are in the minority and unacceptable.

I like the point and laugh technique.

"Racist, Fascist, nasty, smelly gasfest!  Eeuwww, get me a gas mask; that old racist windbag's back."

Until there is an open dialogue and everyone actually says what they're thinking and feeling, nothing will change. Until people say things like, "I've lived in a white suburban neighborhood all my life and my fears are manufactured from every source except personal experience," or "I'm from the hood and keepin' it real and there isn't anything a white man can teach me because he cannot relate to my struggle at all," and start to see all the misconceptions, then the condition continues.

So what part of Alabama was this in?

Oh it was the northern state of Pennasylvania?

Is that not where senator macacca was from?

Racism is truly alive and well and still needs to be eliminated.

But how to eliminate something that is passed from generation to generation? We've seen that forced busing/integration doesn't work. What does it take to open up neighborhoods? I know legally people can live wherever they can afford, but realistically, it doesn't happen.

We eliminate it by bringing different race or mixed children into our families. In my experience, that has turned around most of the racists I know. They find out they love their different or mixed race grandchildren, nieces, nephews, family friends, etc.

CROSS RANT: Have you noticed that the racists are usually the "me and mine" people too?

Regarding Marilyn's story about her son, and her "wish" that we could all be the same color. I think all kids want, at some point, to look like someone else - thinner or heavier, curly or straight hair . . .  I had one who wanted to wear glasses because she thought the kids who had them looked cute. It's that "grass is greener" thing. Wouldn't it be appropriate to use the skin color situation to teach the child that it's great for everyone NOT to look or be alike, that diversity is a beautiful thing?

And, Sandy, that is exactly what I did as a mother - explained that each one of us is a unique creation of a loving God and that both uniqueness and the things we share were to be embraced and celebrated.

Most of my family cut me out after the first kid, but they're all good christians so I suppose god told them that was the proper thing to do.

The "me and mines" on every side just piss me off. So do those who claim all the positive things in the world should be attributed to people who share the outward physical characteristics that they have. Excuse me, but there are geniuses and assholes in every culture.

Grew up in Philadelphia. Left at age 18. See that not much has changed.

No, it's not okay. It wasn't okay when I was a kid to have to learn the neighborhoods where I dared not go, lest I not come home because I was the wrong color.

You would think that people living as squashed together as they are in Philly would come to realize that people are all the same. They don't. There are cultural differences among different ethnic groups that tend to keep them from mixing.

I tried to teach my kids to be color-blind, but kids self-segregate starting about the end of middle school, and the ones who don't soon realize they have to choose between groups, because no one is allowed to belong to more than one group.

It's going to take someone a whole lot smarter than I to find a way to fix this.

Yes, I have to admit, I was surprised it was in the Philadelphia area. I don't know that part of the country, but I would think a metropolitan area would be more open to diversity.

Attitudes won't change overnight.

My son, during Black History Month, while he was in kindergarten, asked me "why do people call themselves black?  they're brown?" He truly did not understand why that was even part of a description of a person.

I live in Mississippi and that's probably what our state is most famous for....I also live in the capital city, Jackson, which is predominantly African-American. There is racism on both sides, mostly, I think, because people fear what they haven't been exposed to.

I live in a predominantly black neighborhood and feel safe here. I am actually more comfortable in this neighborhood than I am in my parents' neighborhood, where I grew up--one of the wealthiest neighborhoods in the city limits.

My parents grew up in households that used the 'n' word, but I NEVER heard it in our home. My mother put her foot down with my grandfather about using the 'n' word in our presence and as a result, I never heard him use it either, until I was a teenager.

My mother was a pediatric nurse practitioner with the Health Dept. for several years and spent a lot of her time on the road to health clinics in some of the poorer counties. I distinctly remember her insisting that I watch the Rev. Jesse Jackson testify in front of Congress about the poverty that existed at that time...and a speech he gave around the time where he exhorted black men to stay home and help raise their families. She definitely saw the needs and did everything she could to help.

I've also had personal experience with the flip side (whites being discriminated against by blacks) but my feeling about those incidents is that I ran across an individual with an attitude, not a representative sample of an entire group. I've known too many good folks of all shades to ever think that way.

Mississippi has a long way to go--the racism is much more subtle, not being politically correct, and as a result is much harder to address. The worst thing that can happen is for people to go home and mutter racially charged imprecations in the presence of their children, that just promulgates more of the same. The best thing that we can do is keep talking and listening to each other. 

And before anyone says that children don't think in terms of color unless they're taught it at home....our city schools, being predominantly African-American, have a HUGE emphasis on Black History Month. The information that he learned then was what sparked the question for him...and he asked because he truly didn't understand the emphasis on skin color. I told him that when I was growing up, we didn't learn about the accomplishments of black people in school and that I thought he was lucky to be getting the full picture.

I wonder about the south. Wil and I drove to Atlanta in the late 80's. Perhaps it was because we were in the city and at a scifi con that people didn't bother us or make remarks. (The scifi community is predominantly progressive.)

His aunt took us to the King Pavillion and no one batted an eye. We drove around the city to find his sister and felt comfortable everywhere we stopped.

I'm not sure we would have felt so at ease outside of Atlanta or off the interstate.

You say the racism in Mississippi is more subtle. Why do you think that is?

<more subtle> Probably because the communities that live separately (predominantly one way or the other) do encounter each other during the course of a work day  but rarely ever spend any personal time together. Thus, the only situation in which either is comfortable is when there is a distinct purpose from which both gain, thus ensuring cooperation.

This is the Deep South and religion/faith is an important part of life; which church you belong to dictates what influences your attitudes and can sometimes be instant identification of shared frame of reference for belief systems.  The most segregated time of the week is Sunday morning and some of the attitudes are still preached from the pulpit. I only know of a handful of churches with integrated congregations and only one of them is Southern Baptist--about half their white membership left when the first black family entered the sanctuary and asked to join.

Attitudes ARE changing, but it is slow. One of my former coworkers became pregnant out of wedlock and gave birth, but had a massive heart attack (she was age 30 at the time). She didn't have any family left, and no one to take care of the baby until she was able to do so. Another of my coworkers took the boy home and cared for him until his mother was able to leave the hospital, despite battling Stage 4 ovarian cancer herself. The mother moved in with the cancer patient and her husband for two weeks until she was able to move back to her apartment. I supplied groceries, baby supplies and clothes, a newborn carseat and whatever else I could come up with from my son's 'hand-me-downs'. I also enlisted my father in lining up clients for the baby's father, who owned his own lawn maintenance business (my father still uses him for yard maintenance and handyman work, 12 years later) so he could pay his child support. 

There's not anything unusual about that story, except that the mother was black and the cancer patient was white--and to be welcomed into a white person's home and cared for as if by family--that is unusual. But my friend Genine (the cancer patient) was a rare individual....there were members of our church who were racist and separatist and as much as Genine loved our church and was tolerant of others' failings, she knew it would cause comment and gossip among some members if she let them know what she was doing. I knew, her husband knew, the pastor knew, not many others did.

Once the color bar of the sanctuary is broken, more change will come. Some of the generational attitudes are being worn down by constant exposure during the course of a day and one day the effort to build relationships will expand to all arenas, not just the workplace.

Unfortunately, I still see prejudice on both parts, even in the workplace. But that's a whole 'nuther post.

On a personal note, when my friend Genine died, I stopped going to that church. The pastor urged that the congregation embrace the changing demographic of the neighborhood and start welcoming black families...it caused a huge rift in the congregation. In the end, I was one of a handful that stood up for him. He left within a few months and so did I. Genine was a respected and central member of the congregation and if she had lived, things might have changed. There were several other reasons why I left (my son's descent into major depression and the lack of understanding about his and my need for acceptance and support being one) but I know I won't ever go back.

I have seen a Southern Baptist church break down for racial reasons here in Ohio. When the church was starting up, they bussed in young black people from a neighborhood on the edge of town. All was well until a black guy started dating a white girl. Suddenly, the bus couldn't go that far out of its way to pick up those young members of the congregation. They left as well as all of the young men and women who were the founders of the youth ministry.

The couple left. I was friends with them. I wanted to leave too, but I was in high school and my mother was sticking with the church and made my life hell if I refused to go. That church showed what it was really about and I refused to join or co-operate with them in any way. If I had to be there, I didn't have to be there joyfully.

To this day, I don't trust churches at all.

People who belong to churches are just people, after all, trying to unite for a common purpose....but their differences divide them.

The pastor I supported....his daughter was close friends with a black guy a couple of years older than her (not dating at the time) and that contributed to the rift. I didn't find out about that aspect until after I had already left--my son ran into her and her friend and didn't think anything about it (he'd had a black girlfriend in high school) but when he told me about seeing her, I realized that there had been more to the situation than I was previously aware of.

I've been in a lot of different churches (Presbyterian--both kinds, Episcopal, Southern Baptist, Methodist) and while the Southern Baptist was the only one where the racism issue was spoken of openly among certain members, they have all had their issues....spending money on youth being one, particularly in the Presbyterian PCA church. That good ole Puritan work ethic....fun?  what is that?

More people have been hurt by those practicing bad theology in the name of Christianity....google Dan Merchant, he wrote a book on the subject that I found fascinating, about 'Christians' not following what Christ said and how many people have been hurt by it. Took me to a whole 'nuther level of understanding of the need for acceptance--and the need to keep rooting out the subtle beliefs that keep us from truly loving one another.

The existance of so many denominations is proof that the theology doesn't unite people. That's found in every organized religion, not just Christianity.

That is very true. Sunni and Shiite Muslims, for example. Theology may unite small numbers into larger groups, but then factions arise and another group splits off....always shifting, in a search for power.

The core beliefs (of Muslims, Hindus, and) Christians 'unite' them under one homogenous label; denominations 'untie' that unity by specifying what is most important for their group....it's all about that need to be 'right'. 

I still believe in the teachings of Jesus Christ as a "'red letter' Christian" (the kind that works to follow only what Jesus himself taught) but keep an open mind about other people's beliefs....comparative curiosity, to discover our commonalities as well as divergences, but without judgement. I find it interesting, for instance, that in Iran (a Muslim theocracy), transgender surgery is paid for by the government because it is believed that it corrects an error of biology. That looks like acceptance until one discovers that homosexuality is treated as a criminal offense. When I run into dichotomies like that, I just become very thoughtful about human nature. 

Well said, about core beliefs. What is most irritating to one who isn't a  follower of any of the "big three" is the insistence that each little hole in the wall church up to the megachurches hold that their way is the only way.

From dress codes to attitudes about race and every subject of living in between and beyond those, organized religion is about control and plays on people's need to belong.

I think there is little that is sadder than a church congregation breaking down on racial lines. My great-uncle was a Southern Baptist minister whose church decided they didn't want to welcome a black family into the congregation. He left that church over this issue. This was in, I believe, the late 1960s or the early 1970s and he never recovered from the experience. He said it didn't make him question his faith, but it did make him question how other people understood theirs.

By the way... in relation to the earlier question of a very pale white kid being teased for being very white? Uh, no. I'm not buying it. I'm the most shockingly pale person wherever I go, and aside from flinging a drink on someone who mocked me on the beach in my 20s, I never experienced anything like that. I would suggest that bigots become more believable in the stories they see fit to make up if they want to pass them off to the rest of us.

<their way is the only way>  This is when 'church' ceases to be a place and time to worship and becomes a 'social club'....Some of the religious law of Islam is actually custom--the chador or burkha being one, since it is not actually mentioned in the Koran, only in the commentaries. For Christians, the Southern Baptist casserole dish is another such custom albeit a much funnier one. Both customs have social consequences, women's rights being the one we hear the most about.

I think that here in the Deep South (with its deep religious roots being an integral part of the culture), one cultural factor in the rise of obesity (Mississippi has a 32.5 percent obese population--and we are known as the "Buckle of the Bible Belt") is that the concept of restraint in food habits is not preached from the pulpit. Alcohol, yes. Drugs, yes. Smoking, yes. All of those are preached against as if partaking of one single drink, cigarette or tranquilizer will send you straight to hell. 

Food?  I've heard a  pastor mention in his closing remarks (after announcing the church picnic the following week) that he sure hoped someone would bring coconut cream pie....and sure enough, five different members brought at least two pies each. I have NEVER heard a sermon on gluttony. We're a poverty state and enjoy what few areas of abundance we have...food is one of them. There's also the Biblical admonition to be ready to welcome strangers into your home (I'm not certain of the verse) that is the basis for hospitality...the circular logic is fascinating.

People do have social needs and at some level, that extends beyond family to community....it's the breeding ground of having a sense of social responsibility. Whether the members are encouraged to exercise that belief (in social responsibility) in terms of effort beyond writing a check, and to do so on behalf of others who don't necessarily look like them...well, that's one criteria for discerning the level of tolerance amongst the congregation.

I'd rather belong to a small church that encourages members to help others in an active way--beyond just writing a check--than to a megachurch where if you enter the sanctuary by a different door, you may not meet anyone you know.

Kids will pick on other kids about ANYTHING that is different. My son took some crap for being too light from Black kids. So did Wil -shoot, he still gets teased about being light-skinned. I've also heard Black kids bust on the darkest kid in the crowd. What an eye opener for me to hear, "Man! You are black like Africa!"and it was meant as an insult.

Now white kids will bust on a red-headed, freckled kid, and really, can you blame them? (Speaking as a person with pale, red-headed cousins with and without freckles.)

Yeah -- it's acceptable for my tan cousins to bust on me. They get a pass where no one else does. It's also understood that I'll bust right back at them for all having female mustaches by the age of 30 when I don't. :)

The Southern Baptist Potluck. Proof that weed and Jesus can go together.

I've a friend who attended a church that had a dress code and the preacher took her aside and told her she would have to dye her hair because it wasn't naturally black enough. When she told me that, I asked when she would be leaving that group. She went to the beauty shop instead.

I have never felt the need to belong to any group so badly that I would change my physical appearance.

The megachurches should be identified for what they are- business cults.

I have a similar disdain for megachurches, and don't think it's a coincidence that so many of them feature the new "gospel" of God-wants-you-to-be-rich. A church is supposed to be, in part, about fellowship, which I don't feel can be found in an environment of hundreds or thousands of strangers (unless it's a Jimmy Buffett concert, but that's not really the kind of analogy a megachurch or I, as a Parrothead, would appreciate).

I belong to a church (Methodist) of just over 100 members that welcomes people without regard to what they look like or whether they've been there before. That's the way I like it. There are a couple of things I'd change about the Methodist church but nothing that prevents me from attending, even if it's sporadically at best. I bet every member of that wretched country club that started all this discussion goes to church. I wonder if any sermons will address it tomorrow.

<I have never felt the need to belong to any group so badly that I would change my physical appearance.>

Me neither. Wearing dress clothes to Sunday morning services may be a respectful thing to do--but being told to change one's hair color?  That was way out of line.

<The Southern Baptist Potluck. Proof that weed and Jesus can go together.> I don't understand the reference to weed. Would you mind explaining that a little more?

The gospel of "God wants you to be rich and I must lead by example so pitch in the plate because I need this year's Benz?"

<The Southern Baptist Potluck. Proof that weed and Jesus can go together.> I don't understand the reference to weed. Would you mind explaining that a little more?

Smoking marijuana tends to give people a strong desire to eat but not necessarily the desire to cook. Often referred to as "the munchies" this side effect is wholly responsible for the invention of chocolate chip cookie dough in a tube.

Ah. I knew about the 'munchies' but did not understand how the Potluck tied in with that. I don't partake of it, myself--the times that I did try it, way back when, it never 'did' anything for me...I've experienced the 'munchies' before, but from other causes. Thanks.

Linda, did your son call himself white, and did he have the same question since he is probably not any whiter than the brown kids who were being called black? My grandchildren do the same thing your son did - they are all different colors, and identify themselves and one another as cream, peach, brown, and some other colors I don't remember.

Funny you should ask, Sandy....He wondered why he was called 'white' since his skin was pink (he was sunburned at the time, normally he is extremely pale). He was five years old at the time (now about to turn 19).

I don't think it's unusual for these kinds of questions to come up with kids that age; it's their first time really entering a world of their own (big kid school) and developmentally they start noticing more details about the people they encounter in that new world. I taught four year old kindergarten for a year and noticed that if I ran into one of my students outside of class, say, at the grocery store, they would be absolutely floored at realizing that I went to the store too--as if I only existed in their preschool world prior to that. The closer they got to five years old, the less it seemed to startle them.

For my son, I think it was more curiosity about language than any social issue. He wants to be a writer....always has been a big reader and has attempted two novels--starting his first at age 13. He recognized his first word at age 3....'pizza'. We were driving past a pizza restaurant that we had never been in and he asked me if the word on that sign was 'pizza'. (I read to him a LOT.)

This is the latest statement from the Valley Club.

We're not racists. (New window.)

Right, and Nixon wasn't a crook.

EM JAY, I just tried the link from this comment and was denied access. Curiouser and curiouser....

I got the link yesterday from Mother Jones online. They were encouraging people to visit the swim club's website and put in their 2 cents. When I went to it, a simple statement about not being racist was posted. My guess is their server crashed or they took the site offline.