Critique is a gift, not a dirty word. It is not (necessarily) an indication that the person delivering it is a meanie or that the recipient is a dummy. It is, always, a heartfelt, valuable gift from one to another. Even when the motivation behind the heartfelt gift is negative, even when the gift is unsolicited, even if the message is blasé, there is something useful there if the writer chooses to take it.
If I am successful in finding the words I need for this post, I expect my life to turn around. Instead of feeling like a freak for wishing people would beat up on me, I’ll be one of many keyboard masochists competing for the special gift.
I was disappointed to discover that some people do not feel qualified to offer critique. Everyone is qualified. You may choose not to, but please don’t think you are not qualified or that what you have to offer isn’t important. It is.
Critique is not just about correcting technique. People who know nothing about technique read and have opinions, preferences, and questions. Those opinions, preferences, and questions are valuable to writers - possibly more so than spelling and grammar catches. We can usually go back and catch the typos and technique problems but we can’t always know or predict how a wide audience will read what we have written.
After spending hours, days, weeks, months, years, decades on our work, it becomes like a child to us. It’s hard to be objective. Just as we are so used to seeing our babies spit up that it doesn’t gag us the way it might a stranger, we see what we know we were thinking instead of the typo that landed on the page. It’s even harder to see someone else criticize our baby. I’ve discovered, though, that it always feels good in the end, when our child grows into a successful adult.
I will document a few of my experiences with critique and tell you how I used them, as well as list my thoughts about critique in general. I hope you will share your own thoughts and experiences, either in this comment thread or as separate posts for longer discussions.
I only critique in a group – NO private messages – for several reasons. First, I do not want the responsibility alone. I try to preface my comments with things like, “This is strictly a matter of preference,” or, “I have seen people teach it both ways,” but what if I forget? Or I am wrong? Or I haven’t seen the latest trends? I am much more comfortable putting my comments in view of a large group where others can challenge or disagree with my advice. That way, we’re all encouraged to pull out the books or hit the Google box and find supporting documents.
Also, in a group setting, everyone benefits from seeing things that might not come up in their own work, and things they might not have thought of otherwise. I’ve found myself enjoying and learning from the critique of a manuscript that would not have interested me for any other reason other than the great discussion the critiques generated.
Finally, in a group, each member comes in with unique experiences and interests. One person will focus on punctuation, another on spelling, someone else on characterization or timelines. People are more comfortable stepping in because no one feels pressured to look for everything.
I appreciate all comments on my work, but that doesn’t mean I always agree, or that I think anyone should. What I promise, and hope everyone else will, also, is that I consider what each person offers. For example, I posted a scene once in which a prosecutor and police officer did not know or recognize each other. Half of the critique group told me that was unbelievable; police officers and prosecutors would always recognize each other. I knew that could easily happen in my city but called a police station and the prosecutors’ office to make sure. The receptionist in the prosecutors’ office laughed and told me she didn’t recognize all of them, nor did the recognize each other, and she was certain each of them would have trouble identifying thirty police officers out of uniform.
Personal experience was based on the size of the city or town each member lived in. None of us was right or wrong in this situation. I had to decide how to deal with this, but I didn’t have to decide that day. Did I want to leave it as I had written it, knowing that some readers would find it unbelievable? Did I want to change the story?
I considered my options and decided I liked the story the way it was, but I didn’t want to alienate readers unnecessarily. The only solution for me was to find a way to show (not tell) how the size of the city made my scene believable, since that is exactly the kind of detail that would bore me or feel like author intrusion if I were to read it. There wasn’t a single word or line I could change, so I made a number of small changes as I worked through the final edit.
Another time, a critique buddy questioned the possibility of my character’s ponytail smacking the person behind her in the face. He used some mathematical language that was foreign to me so I tested it by putting my daughter’s hair in a ponytail and had her smack me with it at different distances. Again, I had to wonder how many readers might question that, and would they discredit me or test it out to see.
These are questions that many might not think of as critique, but they are valuable to writers, and they are the kinds of questions that someone who has never thought about writing might have. Discussing situations like these with a group of writers and readers gives us a feel for whom, and how many, might have questions like these when reading.
It is helpful if we explain what in our experience makes us question something, but I don’t want anyone to think anything is mandatory in this group. NO PRESSURE will be the name of the game.
Some (many?) of you may have noticed that I stick commas everywhere. I blame my daughter. As I completed a chapter, she used to read it aloud to me. If she didn’t pause where I wanted, I stuck in a comma. Now, (see, I want you to pause after that word), I read my work back in her voice, and stick a comma where I want her to pause. If I still use too many commas, and it annoys you guys, here’s where you tell me, or where you teach me the correct usage, or where you fight over comma usage on my thread. Please do, because I am going to tell you not to use semicolons and colons in dialogue. And someone else is probably going to say they don’t agree with me. And I am going to whip out the book that taught me, and they’ll probably find something that says they can if they want . . . And none of us will be upset because it will feel good to know that someone cares enough to question in the first place.
I like to know that my work makes an emotional impact on a reader. I’ve turned manuscripts and markers over to friends and asked them to indicate when they smile, laugh, cry, roll their eyes . . . It would be helpful (to writers and critters, alike) if each member would list specific requests like this at the end of each submission.
I do not share the opinion that every critique must be prefaced with sweet talk. We are adults, we know everyone’s time is precious, we can assume that when someone points out a typo and nothing else they are giving what they have to offer.
I will stop here, without specifics. If there is interest, I will choose subjects and go into specifics that we can look for as a group in later posts. Let me know what you want.
rate
email
print
link to this page
Comments: 112
Sandy I had one of my favorite connections clue me in on something. During the FC1 contest he had submitted an entry. I had critiqued it and apparently harsly. I was honest. He told me about a year ago that I was the reason why he stopped writing.
At first I was upset and told him so then he told me I had done him a big favor. He realized he wasnt a good writer but had other talents and could now concentrate on them to enhance his life.
I am not now or ever have been a real critique. What I represent is your target audience. And if you cant sell people like me no editor or publisher will touch you.
Lori, you did that guy a favor. Obviously, he wasn't willing to put in the necessary work (or tears) and you pushed him to find what he was willing to work hard at. I'm not sure I believe that you are the reason he stopped writing, though.
Representatives from the target audience are important.
That should say I have never been a real critic not critique.
I like the "NO private messages" topic. I've always done the opposite, unless I already know that the recipient is one who will be OK with their work being harshly judged.
I am always wanting to know what my readers feel when they read my work, so your idea of handing out markers I will, in all probability, borrow.
Commas, hahaha! I used to be guilty of little or no punctuation in my poetry. After several critiques of "you should put a comma here, you should use a semicolon here, do not use exclamation points here" I finally started using punctuation. The problem is, now I'm o' so confused!
Great post - thank you! (and I'm not sugar-coating)
Ruth, I'm a real stickler to the NO PRIVATE MESSAGES rule. I've seen a number of people state that it is rude to correct someone in public. I think it is rude for someone to demand that I jump through hoops to give them more than I was willing of my time. Why go to another page when I can comment right where I am? Honestly, I think anyone who demands that all negative comments be made in private is insecure and not ready to be serious about writing. I wish them well, but don't think they should post work on a public site until they are ready for public comment.
Ohhhh, commas and poetry? That hurt isn't so good. I'm totally lost there. I used to drop punctuation all over my poetry (well, my attempts at poetry might be more accurate). Someone told me to stop. I stopped completely and then people told me I needed punctuation.
Thanks for reading, and I hope you will consider joining our WeeWE Interactive Writing Project.
I've been chastised for punctuation in my poetry. But sometimes I just have to put it in there... I'm like you, Sandy, I want people to pause in certain places, so I insert commas because line breaks are not always an option. I try to write everything as if it were going to be read aloud.
You hit on another of my 'huh' areas with poetry, Ferosh - line breaks. I've read a number of poems that look to me like prose with line breaks stuck just anywhere, for no obvious reason. I used to ask those poets to explain to me why they decided to break where they did but, even when a few acknowledged my questions, they didn't give reasons that made any sense to me. I stopped asking, and eventually stopped reading because I don't enjoy reading something that looks like a tick in the pinky finger decided the line breaks.
I try to write everything as if it will be read aloud, too. Most of the time, I do read it aloud but that isn't as beneficial as having someone else read it to me.
I've almost concluded that if it isn't standard and doesn't rhyme, then it's just a descriptive paragraph. Lyrical prose.
I make it a point not to critique. I have shown such grace and dignity, as well as class and humility, that I dare to claim to be the most humble member Gather has ever seen. However, I refuse to gloat.
Jeff!
Sheryl, is the guy?
Huh? I am not sure what you mean but I avoid guys named Sheryl at all costs.
Hey Sandy, am I invited to join the Interactive Writing project? I am really interested in sharing some of my life's work.
Jeff, everyone is welcome to join the writing project, as long as they are serious about writing and willing to accept critique.
I'm the guy she's referencing, Jeff.
Sandy, I'm not sure. :-)
I'm not either, Sheryl.
I though Sheryl O was a girl. But shame on your parents.
I love this part:
I do a lot of comedy, and with IRL friends, I make them read it in front of me and when they laugh, they have to tell me where they are. I have never thought of having people mark up the story like you describe, and it's a fantastic idea!
I love this article and I love the sentiments in it. I like "no private messages" because when people say something about another person's stuff, I learn, too. I note where they stumble, what trips up people, how to avoid it, what I would have done, etc. It's like little mini-lessons.
For people who don't feel qualified to talk technical, they still have some very important stuff for me. Tell me who you think my characters are. Tell me if you like or dislike them as people. Tell me what you think might happen next or what caused them to be like they are. Tell me how my story made you feel or if it was fun. Tell me if you got bored, because that's important, too.
For writers, even if someone points out something that isn't technically wrong, you should look at where the reader stumbled. Usually there is something there that could be smoothed over. If they complain that they misunderstood a section or had to read it twice, that probably means you have phrasing issues or need to clarify who is doing what to whom.
I especially need help with punctuation around dialog embedded in a paragraph, as well as how to punctuate words that I need to set off. [Like: "That's "forte", not "fort"," she said. ACK! Quotes, double quotes, single quotes, commas where???]
I am thrilled when someone reads my stuff. I am even more thrilled when they stop to share something about the story. I am thrilled beyond belief when they take the time to read it carefully enough to point out errors, wrong words, and inconsistencies. I love critique and those who offer it.
Like Sandy said, it's a gift.
Thanks, Barb, for telling us what you like to hear. Now I want to edit and put all of that in my post.
Punctuation in dialogue is coming up - soon. You asked before and I didn't get to it. Keep reminding me if I forget again.
I appreciate your enthusiasm more than you can possibly know, Barb.
You're very welcome, Sandy.
i had an art teacher that used to say during critique weeks, "dazzle me with brilliance, or baffle me with bullshit, but at least say something other than 'i like it' or 'don't like it' but to tell us WHY and/or HOW it made you feel, good or bad.
i don't mind when people point out the flaws in my work. 9 times out of 10 it's the same thing i dislike about a piece. the difference with the paintings as opposed to the writing, is once past a certain point, i can't change the flaws. doesn't mean that i won't listen to what someone else said, but i will file it away in my brain for the next piece.
CC, I love that whole quote but want to highlight tell us WHY. That needs to be in the post, too. Can you believe I cut about 100 words and still missed important points? Never mind, I hear everyone saying yes.
Great point about filing away for the next piece, too.
Thanks.
Now, that's what I was thinking when I read your piece, Sandy. CC's an artist, and artists learn early on that critique is absolutely crucial to improvement. I agree with you that people do not need to be 'experts' to provide a good critique, but everyone should learn to somehow substantiate their criticism with reasoning other than "i like" or "do not like". Responses can be purely emotional - that's not what I'm saying. But, they should somehow be substantiated, i.e., "I like it because..."
As a long-time professional musician, I feel exactly the same way you do about criticism. No artists (and I consider writing an art) get better without it.
I'm happy to see the two of you, an artist and a musician, together on this post. Maybe the music background iprovided much of my tough-skin approach. That, combined with what my parents gave me - telling me I could do better was empowering and often all it took to light that fire.
Sheryl, thank you for recognizing writing as an art.
Well, you're welcome, Sandy, but it's not my doing. Writing IS an art. Just because people can hum a tune, it doesn't make them a musician. Just because people can post an 'article' on Gather, or write anything for that matter, doesn't make them a writer. Just as in all artistic endeavors, writing takes training, practice and more practice. Just as in all the arts, artists spend their entire lives striving to be better, never accepting anything as 'perfect' or 'complete'.
Hell Sandy, you played the accordion. You had to be tough just to make it to lessons without getting beat up. ;-P
Who says I didn't? It was a tough life.
Debra was here :-D
(GO SANDY!)
Cheerleaders are always nice, Debra. You could have pointed out at least one of the errors in this post while you were here, though.
I'll do it. 10th stanza, 7th line:
"The receptionist in the prosecutors’ office laughed and told me she didn’t recognize all of them, nor did the recognize each other,..."
'the' should be 'they'
I also suspect that you allowed that typo to see if anyone would catch it...
*pats self on back*:)
And other than the excessive commas(which I personally appreciate), I could find no other technical errors.
NOW, I'm going to challenge you about expressing emotions in a critique...
Wouldn't a quick and appropriate method to express laughter best be marked as 'lol'? Hehehe...... I know how much you LOATHE those three little letters, but I'm very fond of them for the sole reason of wanting to express exactly when I'm laughing, and it's so quick and handy to type them in. I use them like you use commas, but I always try to refrain when writing to you.:) See? I just smiled! Is that the kind of markers you're looking for when people read your work? I can always oblige with emoticons!
I did catch "the" that should have been "they". But my computer was crashing, so I had to make a hasty exit.
I giggled when I read this line:
It would be helpful (to writers and critters, alike)
I didn't know critters could read!
Good catch on they/they. Those pesky things that spell check will not catch really drive me crazy. I did not do that on purpose.
I had a problem with the paragraph that begins After spending hours . . . It might be a total mess. That kid in the analogy might be yours or it might be mine - might be one kids and might be more than one. It's confusing the way I've written it. I didn't do that on purpose, either.
Ferosh, I am not always offended by LOL or emoticons. I even use them occasionally in instant messages and comments. If I'm honest though, I admit that I'm only doing that because I'm too lazy to write what will 'show' my emotions in words.
My asking readers to indicate their emotions is a test of how well my writing evoked the emotions I hoped to convey. I should not be writing LOL and ;'-( where I want them to laugh out loud or feel a tear. On the other end, "I laughed so hard I woke my husband," or "That made me chuckle," Gave me goosebumps," or "Left a hole in my heart" tells me much more than LOL or ;-O.
When I ask others for markers, I don't specify how I want them. One person will draw a smiley face and another will write a paragraph in the margin. I'm grateful for whatever I get.
Debra, now you know. Some critters read.
What if you play a word game here and call it "feedback" instead of "critique" in referring to the valuable commentary you are inviting? That way, folks are not limited to what they might perceive as displays of grammatical nerdiness or technical nitpicking.
hmmmm
Nah. I'm afraid that might encourage people who aren't comfortable with the word critique, and who think grammatical nerdiness and technical nitpicking are bad things.
I recently heard a presentation on library practices at a workshop in Ithaca, and one of the points the man made was about terminology: people want to search the subject "cooking" and won't even think to type in "cookery" which is the proper Library of Congress subject heading.
Likewise, I spent at least two hours educating folks about the benefits of feedback when I was on Wood Badge staff.
"Critique" has the baggage of its association with "criticism" and that word has been used colloquially as the term for negative feedback. The LC subject heading "literary criticism" means a book is an analysis of someone else's work, not a negative review, but I doubt non-students search for that term either.
All of this is just kicking the idea around, though.
When I feel like it, I offer input on what I read. Sometimes I prefer to do it in a private message because I think the correction needs to be considered. If I leave my input as a comment, it could get lost in the comment thread (I am often left unanswered) or it could be ignored because the writer didn't give it thought when delivered that way. I think at times that a private message makes the shared observations carry a little more sincerity and worth.
I consider it my personal style preference to deliver my critique in the way that suits what I want to say... you've critiqued that style of mine in the past and I respect our difference of opinion on it. I'll continue to do what seems appropriate, but I do agree that the public discussion can offer its own benefits.
Some of the basic grammatical and vocabulary mistakes I see over and over drive me insane, yet I don't comment on them. I just stop reading that person's work.
Why?
If s/he came from the school of "express yourself and don't worry about the technicalities," then s/he is going to think I'm being a picky bitch. I suppose I am being a picky bitch, but if someone is writing a story or article and doesn't bother to care about presentation, then I'm not obliged to take that writer seriously.
If someone is just trying to kick off a conversation on a topic, that is, not writing for the art of writing, then that's a different voice. It's like the difference between speaking at home and speaking at work. I feel more forgiving towards that.
Dannielle, I understand your point about negative connotation very well. Since I'm angry and on a campaign to save words that have been hijacked and twisted to use against me (liberal, progressive, critique), I'm stubborn about standing up for them.
Of course everyone is welcome to offer comments however it is most comfortable for them. I'm probably the odd one out in this area, as I am in so many others but I'll toss this out in case there are others like me. Today, I have 800 unread messages in my Gather mailbox and 500 in my other mailbox. Chances of my reading a private Gather message before I have responded to the comments on my posts are not good.
Em Jay, I like you comment about the difference between speaking at home and speaking at work. The problem (for me, anyway) is that Gather still refuses to define itself. I guess "social networking" might be like home to most people. I still consider Gather the same as being in public, or at work.
I think it is good to define the difference. I am of the era where there were school shoes, play shoes and church shoes. I never wore my play shoes to school. Depending on finances I would either have church shoes or not. If not my schools shoes were cleaned up to be able to wear to church. I see that with writing as well. If I email a friend, I am not as concerned about the typo's. My friends know I have gremlin fingers at times. If I am emailing someone who I work with or know because of my work. I spellcheck and I proofread because this is about my professional life. If I want to be taken seriously, it is important to present myself in a professional manner. If I want to be taken seriously as a writer, it is important to present myself in a similar manner.
Gather is a two headed beast. There is an artistic side and a social network side. I slip between both.I found it amusing when the last changes were proclaimed and the social network folks raised hell.
Not being an active member until about a year ago, that is my take on the site. If I really want to screw around on a social network, I can go trade comments on facef*ckbook.
I like to come here because there is some good art happening and the balance between serious and silly mirrors what goes on in life.
I'm one of those people who don't feel qualified to critique another person's writing, though I edit documents (sometimes re-writing them) at work. It's different there because the guy doing the writing knows he isn't a strong writer and it's more like we're working together on documents. He knows the technical details and I know how to make them readable.
I don't mind when critique is offered on my writing because I don't usually give a hoot in hell what someone else thinks. I shut down when I do write and no one sees it until the voices in my head approve it. I suck at creative collaboration because it's MY story. Let's blame it all on years of being an only child and not ever really learning to share my toys.
And now I'll make a confession, Sandy. I didn't really read all of your post carefully because it was getting rather long and I couldn't relate well to the subject. Again, it's probably because I'm very self-centered in the creative sense. (I do know what you mean about cops and prosecutors not recognizing each other. I can't figure out who most of the faculty are if I see them off campus.)
Em Jay, I'm with you on keeping my story my own, and I'm not an only child. That's why I designed this project so that we are dropping our characters into new scenes and writing them our way. Everyone can choose to be the only one writing their characters.
I am possessive of Liz and cannot imagine someone incorporating her into a story.
Grems, I think most of us feel that way about our characters. I will do all I can to protect them by explaining this process better in future exercises.
Sandy, I'm not worried about. I think this will all work out and be fine. (I am more of an optomist than Liz.)
I'm glad you wrote this, Sandy. I think more people need to know that their input, good or bad, is always appreciated. In case you missed it, I left my two cents farther up the thread underneath Debra's cheerleading comment.:)
I saw that, Ferosh. Sorry I'm so slow today. Thanks for being glad I wrote this. I am too.
Sandy, when we first started WEE, I made several little errors in my first piece. Someone who I know on Gather caught them, pointed them out in private and I was able to fix them quickly. At that time it was very helpful because I was anxious. I am more confident in my writing for WEE and do not need support in that way now. It was part of the growth process for me.
I think it's fine when people point out spelling errors or typos. That is appreciated. If I'm consistantly using punctuation incorrectly, it would be nice to know.
Em Jay: Now if there are problems I have no issue with folks telling me about it. I just needed that little bit of support to get me over the anxiety.
I believe in encouraging folks in whatever they're doing.
A gardener has a choice of spending each day fertilizing, watering, planting, and assisting growth, or using that same time to pull weeds, spray herbicides, and prune. Both choices lead to an attractive garden, both are necessary, but which way we approach the task -- which things we feel are important to do on gardening day -- depend upon how the garden looks to begin with and how much we feel up to doing.
I'm a big fan of supporting others, too, Dannielle. In fact, I think motivating others might be one of my biggest strengths and my only regret is that I spent more of my life helping others realize their dreams than I did working toward my own. But then, I feel successful when I help others get where they want to be, so it all works out in the end.
I also agree that what we decide to do depends on how the garden looks when we get there, and am glad you brought that up. I was criticized recently for "nitpicking" things one editor thought were beneath her definition of critique. When I walk into a garden where someone doesn't capitalize proper nouns or leave spaces between sentences, I'm pretty sure I do not need to fertilize plot and characterization. (Stay tuned for my gardening story later this week.)
Indeed. Few of us mistake the compost heap for the garden...
Dannielle, please be careful about the gardening analogies until you see my garden article.
Nah. I promise I will laugh at me with you, and I will never force you to eat any words (or weeds).
Personally, I appreciate critique of my work, as I am rather fond of the comma myself. (see, three in that sentence alone) . I also have issues with descriptives and inserting personal attributes of a character, while not distracting from the story itself. I also need a little help when writing dialog. Not the words themselves(usually), but the punctuation, like those double quotation marks.
I also adore praise, who doesn't? My point is, I like to hear what does work, as well as what doesn't. I like your idea of giving out markers, too bad that can't be inserted into the Gather program...ha ha(see, no "lol").
I think critique should never be 100% negative. I had a professor once tell my class(I forget if it was a creative or technical writing course) to temper critique with at least one positive point, unless the piece is so atrocious tthat there truly are none.
Punctuation in dialogue is a weak spot for me as well. I am a comma queen.
The only times I have offered 100% negative critique is when the writer has stated, in no uncertain terms, that s/he intends to continue posting work with multiple errors in each sentence, and when someone continued to post chapter after chapter with the same errors even though a number of us had spent hours pointing out those same errors in earlier chapters.
Looks like punctuation in dialogue must come soon. I'll dig out the books and brush up.
Thanks Sandy, I would appreciate it.
Punctuation is confusing. Last month I had a college professor teaching history ask me if commas were out of fashion now. I showed him a presentation I'd worked on with an English professor addressing commas and their use. We came to the conclusion that commas were not dead, but we were both still puzzled over the usage.
I agree with you, donna, about the one positive point and I also learned this in two different writing classes. The reason being that if someone felt there was nothing good about their writing, they'd stop, and a little encouragement at times, is needed.
About critique:
I can always use help with punctuation, poems are still a mystery, as you're damned if you do, and damned if you don't, so though I love to write them, I'm always confused about the punctuation as well.
One critique I'd love not to see on here, and to me, it's unacceptable and I found it totally by mistake, was to have another writer, write about how *not* to write, and link his post as a description, to one of my characters.
Besides that and the fact that another character's abilities were taken and used as their own, by someone else in this group, (hell, I'd rather do this privately), it's when I deleted all of my characters and groups. When things get to that extent, and this is a serious question, what else is there to do?
Thank-you,
Marilyn
I wrote a 'how not to write' story once. It was not easy. Everyone, feel free to use it as the example in the future.
Marilyn, I take full responsibility for not making the interactive part of this project clear. The idea is to write our own characters into scenes that others have created, not to write someone else's character into our own scenes. I apologize to anyone who was confused, or hurt by that confusion and will do my best to explain things better in the future.
I use too many em dashes - like WAY too many.
Really glad I followed Danielle's comment here - this is an excellent article.
Flit, I do that, too. Even worse, I put my thoughts in parenthesis and seldom close them.
Thanks, I'm glad you are here.
I read a book about language that supported no commas, and no use of the word "and" in a list. It went on to support commas and the use of "and" between every element in a list. It was a most unconventional writing tool because it illustrated each suggestion will examples from literature (often the Bible) and showed how there is no "norm", only comfortable (to the author) usage. Enlightening - as is this article. Thank you for the time and the effort, Sandy. I always enjoy reading your articles.
Thanks, Richard. Trying to keep up can drive a person crazy. The rules change frequently.
I'm not in the group, not great at always proofing my stuff or spellchecking and can never remember the rule about the proper use of apostrophe's.
The thing that makes me lose the context of what I'm reading is the misuse of commas. You use a comma when creating lists, marking off a parenthetical phrase and a couple of other times that I'm not sure about the terminology, but pretty much I know when to put one in. Twelve years of Catholic schools will do that to you. It is never proper to use a comma before "and". The word "and" is a connector, used to link one thing to the other. There is absolutely no reason for a comma to be used before one.
My biggest writing problem is that I have an awful time writing dialogue. I very rarely write anything where people talk to each other. I can't seem to figure it out.
I survived Catholic school, too. Only did eight years, though.
I was so terrified of dialogue that my first novel had not one word of dialogue. Fortunately, it worked (so the publisher thought, anyway) well with the topic. Rather than destroy my fearless reputation, I studied and worked until I was comfortable with it. Some say, (some is like they, right? I don't have to list names?) my dialogue is good now. All I know for sure is that I am comfortable writing it, and that feels like an accomplishment.
Stick around, Sharon. We'll play with dialogue.
"It is never proper to use a comma before "and". The word "and" is a connector, used to link one thing to the other."
If two independent sentences are joined by a conjunction (both sentences have their own subject), you are supposed to use a comma.
The use of the serial comma (with three or more items on a list) depends on whom you ask.
Neither of the above bothers me much either way, because putting or omitting those commas doesn't violate the logic of the sentence--it's a matter of preference, really, or in some cases, a way to avoid ambiguity. (And different languages have different rules about those.) What drives me nuts is when people put commas in ridiculous places, like between the subject and the verb.
(Anyone who's not sure what kind of incorrect comma I'm talking about there, should look at this sentence. No, that's not a long introductory phrase--that's the subject, and the comma shouldn't be there.)
(above comma example) That's the kind of thing that makes me grind my teeth. I think it's why I've never seriously considered teaching.
Since Kris doesn't want to teach, I nominate Aniko to lead a class in graphing sentences.
My most interesting encounter with critique occurred when I bought a used copy of one of my books online and found notes pencilled in the margins. The reader had actually been carrying on a conversation with me, as she read! Although it was more like an argument (and I would love to have been able to respond) it was a fascinating glimpse into a reader's thought process and brought home the realization that real people were reading my work.
Wow, what a wonderful way to discover what someone thought about your writing.
Ruth, I absolutely LOVE this story! How fun this must have been.
And how scary. I write in the margins. After Prince of Tides, I thought I would be cure of that habit. Nope. I still do it.
I gave my mother my copy of Poisonwood Bible. She told me she enjoyed seeing what I had highlighted. Glad it was Mom.
I loved "Poisonwood Bible". I didn't want to read it. I seem to have an aversion to bestsellers and I am workin on getting over it. My best friend is a book nut like I am and nagged me to read it. I'm glad she did.
Then I nagged her to read "Paradise" by Toni Morrison. Great book, if you haven't read it you should. It's one of her hits, not one of her misses.
It must have been very interesting.
While in graduate school, I lent a marked-up copy of a book on Martin Luther (really a psychological analysis of his life) to one of my grad professors. When he returned it he told me my margin comments and highlighting distracted him. A fine 'thank you' that was!
Ruth, how cool is that?!
Brief aside: Sandy, did you know Conroy has a new book out on August 11? South of Broad.
Poisonwood Bible is one of my favorites. I've read it a number of times and don't know how many copies I bought to give as gifts. My daughter has read it several times, too. I'm a big Barbara Kingsolver fan.
Really, Sheryl. Tell that guy to buy his own copy next time.
Yes, Kris. I thought of you when I saw the announcement. I can't wait!
Sheryl, some books lean towards being written in. If it is my book, I will do what I want thank you very much. (and yes I meant that just as snotty as it sounded.)
I'm just so happy to know the rest of you write in your books, too.
Did you tell your children not to write in books?
I have one that is a treasure. My daughter started writing her name in her favorite book (A book of presidents) and wrote what could pass as an autobiography and threat to any person who dared walk away with her favorite book. If I can find it, I'll scan it for the world to see and embarrass her.
Ha! It doesn't sound snotty at all. The Luther book was more of a textbook than a pleasure book, and I was reading it while taking a music history class focusing on the Baroque period, specifically to understand the influences of the Reformation on sacred music of the time. As a professor, he should have appreciated the fact that I was doing extra research concerning the church's influence.
Yes, he should have.
Sandy I tend to write in non fiction more than fiction. However, when I was in grad school and using fiction for some of the case studies we did, my favorite fiction was written in as well. We bought our son some of the books he was reading when in high school so he could write in them and make notes of his own.
Same here, Grems. I usually just highlight fiction but make long notes in non-fiction. I always bought my own text books and kept them. (Not many people would have wanted my used versions.)
I am firmly against writing in books... MY books. I don't have any issues with other people doing it to theirs. I had a professor who insisted upon checking our books intermittently to see that we WERE writing in them. That's the only time I've done it, and it was all in pencil; I erased as soon as I could transcribe what I'd written elsewhere. I'm one of those people who learns by writing things down, so once I'd done it twice, it was committed to memory. (To this day, you can ask me just about anything about a handful of Shakespeare's plays and I'll remember it clearly.)
I had professors who encouraged writing in books as well. Used to do it in college and grad school all the time. I don't really do it any more. Very occasionally I write notes about something on my computer. I should do it more often but I just am reading more shallowly now than I used to. If I had something like a Kindle, which I thinks supports adding annotations, I might well do that.
Kris, I would never write in a book I didn't own. Just wanted to make that clear so you don't hide yours if I'm around. My mother was like you. She wouldn't make a mark on a book and nearly cried if a page was wrinkled. You can imagine her reaction when I started buying my own books and turning a page down to mark my place.
I learn best by writing. My studying consisted of copying the important information. Think that's typical of those of us who enjoy writing?
Dave, so far I haven't been able to transform my brain. Typing would work for storing the information for future reference but I would have to look it up. I only remember if I write. Does this make me an old dog who can't learn new tricks?
Wait a minute! Dave doesn't have a Kindle? I thought you had every gadget. Does this mean you are waiting to build your own?
I so lust for a Kindle. Sigh. I actually held one in my hand, albeit briefly, the day my boss had me pack it up and return it. Double sigh.
I, too, remember by writing. When I am memorizing something (I had a part in a play) I wrote and rewrote my lines until I got them. I probably could still do some of the part, 6 years later.
My mother got a Kindle before I did... I think one is inevitable in my future, but I'm not getting one just yet. I do read a lot of stuff online (using my laptop) so I'm kind of right in the target market. Maybe I'll write a post about it at some point.
I don't write in my books, but for nonfiction I keep notecards with the info I need to remember, translations of words, terms, etc. Yep, I am the UberNerd...
I also write in the margins of the books I own. I look back, as they're factual and find that I too, remember much more while writing down pertinent facts.
wow, what a trip! I write in my books tooo!!!! People would get so upset when I wrote things in them, that I started to keep little journals, just to write things down. I used to have an excellent memory, I could almost recite whole stories, which I did a lot when I used to babysit.. Maybe changing stories a tad to make them fit the situation......
I have a lot of trouble with comma's, I want you to pause there, so, (another pause) I put a comma......I think that is how I learned to write... of course I am also left handed and was made to write with my right hand????? So, alot of things I do with my right hand, but more things I do with my left (i.e I write and throw with my write, yet fight with my left?????)
anyway, what is a KINDLE?
hahahhahaha, I throw with my right......
and just because I can't seem to shut up, that should probably read, box with my left~~~~~~I try really hard not to fight anymore, it hurts too bad and I am, uh, more mature!!!!
Glad to know another person who writes in books, barb. And thank you, I am feeling better.
I'm late as usual, but here's my two cents.
This issues surrounding when it is or isn't appropriate to offer critique, who is or isn't qualified to offer it, which kinds of critique are appropriate and which aren't, all make for an interesting discussion. It could be a neverending discussion, depending on how deeply you want to explore it, and how obsessive you want to be about bringing everyone into total agreement before getting back to the business of writing. The most sensible approach seems to be to establish some basic guidelines, encourage and coach everyone on how to work within them, and exercise great patience when some ignore them completely.
I think the issue of whether or not one is 'qualified' to offer critique is one area where we often mislead ourselves. As you rightly pointed out, writing is a very personal thing for the writer, so it's easy and natural to take personally whatever reception the writing receives from others. On one level, we write for ourselves and hope that in doing so we evoke the right images and feelings in the reader. For the most naturally gifted writers, that may be enough. But for the rest of us, there's a lot of trial and error involved. Feedback from readers is vital to the process.
When something we've written doesn't quite work the way we wanted it to for one reader, it's incredibly tempting to think that the fault lies with the reader, not the writing. I think we're wired to do this more or less by default, because the ability to grant ourselves the benefit of the doubt to a greater extent than we grant it to others is a very successful trait in the evolutionary sense. Fortunately, we also evolved these big brains which give us the option to set aside our automatic responses. We can decide that there is no personal threat in considering the possibility that we could do better, and that our readers' reactions hold the key to figuring out how.
I'm often annoyed by the idea that to critique a thing one must be capable of making the thing they critique, as well or better than the person who made it. It's a fairly absurd idea, but it crops up everywhere. Who is better qualified to say whether a thing has been designed and made well than the end-user? In the case of writing, it's impossible to write anything which will feel just right and work perfectly for everyone. Personal tastes play a big role, so to some degree it's necessary to choose a 'target' end-user and write for their benefit. Unfortunately, many people write for people who are just like themselves--and I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but most readers are not like most writers.
Far better to write things which convey imagery, feelings and ideas which are more or less universal. If you want to evoke something in readers, you'll have better luck evoking something that's within all of us. I wish I knew how to do that, but I don't. If you ask me, Sandy does. Try not to think of her as a sweet but decrepit old bat in a lawn chair who occasionally wears a Mexican wrestling mask. Remember that she'll fertilize anything that looks like it wants to grow, even if it's an invasive species.
Remember that she'll fertilize anything that looks like it wants to grow, even if it's an invasive species.
So you've heard? (if you could only see me grinning at the screen!)
Your sentiments stated are well received.
I love this comment, Time Heals, and laughed out loud at the quote that Debra W highlighted above. So will you be hanging around?
Have I told you lately that I love you, Time Heals? Your comment needs to be an article - maybe the article that I tried to write above. You always pull everything together, tie up the loose ends, and make it look nice. Thank you.
are you willing to share him?
He isn't mine to share. If he were, I would still say yes because I think the world needs him.
"You always pull everything together, tie up the loose ends, and make it look nice."
His way of doing this brilliantly pisses me off.
Notice I didn't actually critique this article about critiquing. If I had, CNN would be broadcasting shaky helicopter video of the scene. I measure the effectiveness of my literary critique by how many innocent bystanders are maimed, you see. I also consider it a success if people vomit into their office wastebaskets as the news travels across the land.
No vomiting here.
TH, as far as I'm concerned, you did critique this article about critiquing. In a creative, thoughtful manner, you let me know that you understood my message. Whether or not it was your intention to do so, you also showed me how I could have stated a few things more clearly and expanded my message. I appreciate it.
Sandy, it was as if I was meant to sign onto Gather and read this tonight. I needed to read every word.
Debbie, in that case I am especially happy this was here when you signed in.
I seem to follow the moderation in all things approach to public/private critique. If I'm dealing with someone who is clearly young and vulnerable I may go the extra mile to point out errors in private.
My problem is critiquing poetry - so much of it is so bad it leaves me speechless, and if I like it, I don't often feel like nitpicking. In a poetry class I make the effort because that is why we are all there - and my teachers have been very good about making clear what is useful feedback and what is not. I try to post poetry to the groups that offer critique, but I forget half the time...
And I'm up for the sentance graphing class. I could use it!
Now, does anyone know if none is singular or plural?
I think "none" is singular. I have no idea if I'm right or not.
Years ago, I could graph sentences but I can't now. Maybe someone will take that challenge.
I am generally non commital about typos or grammar critiques but sensitive to content criticism as it doesn't feel all that good to me. I need to grow up and take it in the vien it was intented. Sometimes, it makes a difference who is doing the critiques.
When I was teaching, I wouldn't even read the principal's observation reports because I had so little respect for his ideas.
You make a good point about the importance of respecting the person offering the observation.
If we assume writing is an art then I think the only thing open to criticism is the grammar, spelling and other mechanics so dearly loved by all the English teachers and professors we either blossomed or suffered under. The art and content is a sacred creative expression to be experienced. One doesn't have to like it but it is not open to being 'wrong'.
Our son, the sculptor, once taught a sculpture class at a conservative Baptist University for a semester and I expressed that theory to him as it related to his class's work. He gave every student an A. It was a short lived employment. Throughout history the 'different perspective' has been criticized and unusally condemmed and untold geniuses faded into oblivion because of that. I know of a gifted violaist (sp?) who went to a famous observatory and listened to the criticism for 3 years before throwing the viola in the trash and going to California to 'hippy out'. This is what criticism does to the human spirit.
Love ya