Gather Writing Essential Member Survey

Hi Sandy. I hope you're doing well and enjoying the summer heat.

I can't really answer your questions because I dropped out of the group. The only reason I joined in the first place was because I thought your Tuesday group was the best I'd seen on Gather since I joined in Sept. of 2007. You were actually trying to teach us what you had learned. It was a sharing experience. I dropped out because of the bias of others who didn't treat the group as a whole. Too many were only reading and commenting on their friend's articles, while others were ignored. I viewed your Tuesday group sort of like a classroom. It was fun and challenging.

Thanks, Debra. I love the sun so I am enjoying the summer heat - probably more than is good for my Gathering.

I appreciate your response and will admit that I enjoyed my project more than I have enjoyed the group as a whole. One thing I am trying to determine through this survey is if my time (limited these days) would be better spent if I continued that project outside the WE group.

I will encourage you to continue your project outside of the WE group!

When you bring the group together in a better atmosphere,  as a smaller group who cares about the group as a whole, and not individual cliques, I will participate with enthusiasm.

No matter where I continue this project, I cannot guarantee that everyone involved will like everyone else involved, or appreciate characters and stories others bring to the group.

The only way a writing group will be successful is if all discussion is about writing. Discussion of personalities should be limited to character personalities, and never about the personalites or opinions of other members. That is difficult with some types of writing (articles and essays, for example) but should easier with fiction.

Hey Sandy,

I try and look at as much as possible.  I know for me it's kind of hard to find the content.  I have been trying to put the group on my homepage list and haven't been successful.

When I do find group content, usually either by comment stalking or because I happen to be on here when one of my connections posts to the group, I do go to the group and read and comment as much as possible.

Also it is hard to find the group to post to but I find that with most of the groups I belong to.

Thank you, Lori. I don't have trouble finding the group itself, but I do have trouble finding the content I would most like to read once I get there. I think the problem is that 'writing' is too big a topic. Maybe if we separate groups for poetry, essays, articles, fiction, and technique it would be easier.

To help with posting - the group is listed in the G section of your groups - Gather Writing Essential. For a long time, I wanted to find it in the W's, for Writing. Hope that helps.

I would like a separate group for each day of the week, not this one huge group the way it is now. It would be much easier to figure out what to read and where to find it.

Sandy, my difficulty with the Writing Essentials Group is related to your comment above: 

 "I think the problem is that 'writing' is too big a topic. Maybe if we separate groups for poetry, essays, articles, fiction, and technique it would be easier."

Peter, if I take this project outside the Writing Essential Group and define it clearly, will you be interested?

I think more definition would be much better.

Also my other biggest problem and I dont know if you can do anything about it and trust me I am just as guilty as anyone else on this.

I want honesty.  If I write something and you think it is the biggest piece of crap you have read I want to know.

That is tough.  I find myself not being honest because I dont want to hurt someone feelings.

I can get Nice Job from my husband.  I want someone to tell me what they really think.

Lori, developing this level of trust is the most difficult part of a project like this. That's why I put off critique and hoped to ease into it as people became more comfortable. I made that decision only because there are so many people on Gather who are totally resistent to any kind of critique. In reflecting, I think it might have been better to ask everyone to sign the thick skin statement and jump right in. I am redesigning this project and will address this issue with great detail. We must all be comfortable giving and receiving critique and, most importantly, questioning and discussing critique.

1. What did you hope for when joining the Writing Essential group?

I was hoping to learn more about the techniques of writing, find an incentive to get me writing, and constructive criticism.

2. Did you join to read what others post to the group? Only to have others read what you post? A combination of the two?

I'd say a combination of the two. I was hoping that the posts to this group would be high quality, genuine attempts at writing. I know I can learn from other people, so I'm willing to read other people's posts. Besides, many times they're very interesting.

I also hoped to learn how to critique others in such a way that they don't run screaming away. I learned a lot about what a writer needs to hear from writing myself.

I'd say, taken as a whole, the general WE group has better content than a lot of the other groups I belong to. As a whole, it's been a good experience, at least when you were really at the helm.

3. Do you look at the group's 'posts' list? If so, do you view everything, only what your friends have posted, specific categories (poetry, stories, announcements, etc.)?

I don't go to the group (usually) to view, but have things set to let me know when something is posted. I will read everything in the Tues and Sat groups (the ones I participate in) and have found Wed interesting, too. I've also sampled posts in other areas.

4. Do you look at the group only on specific days? Do you post and/or read only what the editor of the day asks for or features?

No, I read and post when I have time. Flexible posting is important for me. Editors who require the posts be on that day usually leave me in the dust, as sometimes I just can't manage that one day.

5. Is the quality of the writing in the group a concern for you?

I'm more interested in good quality writing, but recognize that everyone needs to learn. A good quality post, in my mind, is one that genuinely attempts to follow the prompts and do the exercises. A poor quality post, to me, would be something that didn't really fit (like posting a recipe to the Tues WE, for example, not that I've ever seen that done).

I like high quality writing, but don't expect everyone to be at the same level. In fact, I think it's good to have different levels so people can learn from each other.

6. Are you interested in discussing writing technique?

Very much so.

7. Do you know how to find the group without private messaged reminders from editors?

I just set my email notifications to let me know when something is posted to the group. I read my friends' posts first, then read other people's stuff. Often, I just read as it appears.

Many times, I've made new friends that way, or found people whose writing I admire. They get added to my notification lists when I find that they are posting good stuff most of the time. (I don't expect anyone to be brilliant all the time.)

--------------------

Most of all, I'd like to see YOU comment on my posts. I haven't seen much of that lately and don't know if that means you have thought my posts were inferior quality or what.

I want instruction and encouragement, mostly from you, but from others, too. I, too, thought of the group like a classroom. I think people in the group should read and comment on other people's stuff, too. I do. If I feel a person is skilled, I value their comments highly. (I like all comments, but the ones from really good writers motivate me more, because I figure they might actually have a clue.) I appreciate people who are just readers, too. I enjoy entertaining my readers. I wish I could know if someone has read but not commented (some online groups actually can tell you who has read your post!).

re: critique -- that's how I operate, too, but I can see where people not used to that way of doing things would find it harsh. I think the key is to explain the technique ahead of time so people know what to expect. If I'd prefaced my critiques with "everything else is wonderful" or something, I think my comments would have been accepted better. I assume that if you don't say anything, it's okay, but encouragement is always appreciated. :)

This made me smile, Lynn: but I really get into the whole "does the chicken's back or her back hurt?" kinds of critques, because this goes passed my "duh now" moments into my got-to-make-this-better mode. This is exactly the kind of feedback most of the writers I know are looking for - nitpicking. Funny how some others consider nitpicking a negative, huh? I got excited when a critique buddy questioned if it was possible for my character's ponytail to smack the guy behind her - and I didn't feel a bit foolish asking my daughter to pull her hair back and prove it possible so I wouldn't have to change what I had written. This is where having a large group of readers/critters creates a wonderful experience. We all think differently, read the way we think, and focus on different things. One guy will pick at a ponytail and someone else will watch for commas.

If everyone reads for their special nits and posts a line or two, along with the occasional long post from someone who is particularly interested or has the time at the moment, the writer receives a world of information. However, if the group is large and each members expects more than that line or two from each of the other members, it can end up feeling more like a job than a fun activity. I do want to continue this project and am trying to determine how to set it up so that everyone gets what they need.

I don't ever recommend "this is a piece of crap" - I stop at, "this is sloppy work and you can do better." (Not you, personally, Lynn. I mean this in general.) The meanest critique I have ever left was, "You have ignored the good advice everyone has given you over the last few chapters so I will not waste my time on your work."

I'm not sure what to say about cliques. In a writing group, there will always be people who appreciate some styles, genres, and stories but not others. If the group is large enough, it usually works out so that everyone is getting some attention. I seldom critique romance or science fiction, since I don't particularly enjoy either and hear that the rules don't always pertain to those genres. I treat them the same as I do poetry - if it catches my eye, I'll read and tell the writer if I enjoyed it or if I have questions.

If you guys can give me a little more time, I think I will figure out how to structure this so that it is helpful to most people, and how to market it to get more people involved.

What you describe about each person nitpicks their area is how my IRL writer's group works. Some people are really good at grammar and syntax. Others are much better at finding plot holes. Most can spot inconsistencies (like spelling the names differently). My talent was to spot things no one else noticed ... like most ceiling fans are NOT going to cast a shadow on the floor because the lights are *below* the fan. Or that it's not reasonable to think that a 120 lb woman ... however buff she may be ... can sling a 40-gallon jug onto her shoulder and walk uphill without effort. I also caught "the shed was painted a faded red." I asked if that was like dusty rose ... hee hee.

If everyone works together, the idea is that all the silly stuff will be caught. It's hard to put all the different comments into action, though, and I'd be interested in ways to do that effectively.

Exactly, Barb! My IRL group is this way, but I belong(ed - since I haven't kept up recently) to an internet group that worked more smoothly even than the IRL group. The special bonuses in that group were that it was international, so I learned the little neuances of English/writing technique in other countries, and that it was a hand-picked group limited to 20 members (with a waiting list) of people whose interests were similar.

You caught dusty rose - I would have noticed that shed and red rhyme, so one should have been changed. ;-)

One more thing to go with Barb's comment:

It's hard to put all the different comments into action, though, and I'd be interested in ways to do that effectively.

I don't think it is always necessary to put all the different suggestions into action, and I never expect anyone to agree with all of the suggestions. The ideal situation is when other members chime in to agree or disagree with a suggestion, and you can get a feel for how most people would react.

I never recommend making immediate, drastic changes. What works well for me is collecting all suggestions to think over for a while. I keep a paper copy of my manuscripts so I print critiques, stick them in, and let them settle until I do my major edits at the end.

I'm going to call on you, Barb, when I think I'm finally ready to set this up with specific critique rules.

Fine with me, but some people think I'm mean. :)

You think that's a bad thing? I think that's how you weed out the people who are not serious about their writing.

Lynn,

addressing your comment, "Didn't know Barb, Donna and I are a clique, but, after all this time, I do trust both women to tell me the facts, without wincing, knowing we're in this together. Even if we are a clique, every single one of us want more joining us."

The word clique seems to offend many. I was accused of being in a clique on Gather once, so I joined a group called The Clique. Then I quit Gather all together.

I never noticed that you, Barb and Donna were "cliquing".. heheh. I rarely see the articles written to WE now. What I was particularly referring to,  is there seems to be groups of people who stick together and ignore everyone else. (You experienced that in another group). When we are all working towards the same goal in a group, I think that is exactly how it should be.. together, helping one another, and putting differences aside. In Sandy's group, we are working on one genre.. Fiction. (so I understand)

On the "Clique" issue...I avoid them like the plague. and generally refrain from commenting on a post in which a "group of friends" is belittling or poking fun at another member.

I don't think Lynn, Barb and I are a clique, we are merely the only ones left in the Tues. We group with active characters, and we support each other's endeavors. To me,  being in a clique means exclusively reading or following as specific group of people, and nothing else. I don't think any one of us three do that.

I would love more characters in the Tues. group.

Considering that I am one of the only three  participating in the Tuesday group, I can answer your questions, in my opinion.

1) I joined because it sounded like a fun project. I knew that you were  popular, and well read, and I assumed the project would be varied and fun. I also knew I could benefit from your knowledge as a writer, and hoped to hone my craft a WEE bit.

2)I look at every WeWee post. I read, I comment...It isn't hard, there are only three of us left.

Here is my humble opinion Sandy:

The members left when you did. I know you have had personal issues, but those are the facts. When you stopped participating, so did the throngs who became involved initially. I don't know about the others, but one o the reasons I joined was for YOUR feedback, and as far as I can tell, you haven't commented on a Tues. We for months.

Do I sound frustrated? I am...I feel that we have written some damned good pieces, especially the collaboration with Barb C., and the few before that,  but they largely went unread, because if the Tues. moderator doesn't bother, why should they?

I truly don't mean to sound harsh, but I have considered leaving the Tues. group myself, because it seems abandoned by all but us few, Lynn P, Barb and myself. I admit, I adore my character, and plan to continue her stories, but hopefully I can gain wider readership  than the Tues. We allows.

<-- waves at Donna

I had to read your comment three times before I figured out what you meant! LOL! (Hey, I'm doing real work in between, so I'm distracted) I kept reading it "they" should be changed to "them" and that just wasn't parsing! LOL! Sigh. I get it now. Thanks :)

Sandy,

I'm glad you understood my points in the spirit in which they were written. If I am not mistaken, when you took over the helm of the Tues. WE, one criteria was not posting to multiple groups, so I have limited myself to WE and WeeWe, as well as my Dixie World group. I think if I took her to a wider audience, she would be better received. I has truly been disheartening to go from several dozen comments on the first few prompts, to about a dozen comments on the more recent stuff.

I do not in any way mean to belittle the medical issues you have been facing, I understand the reasons you have been scarce, and part of my frustration is the fact that so many depend on your physical presence to participate. (Wish I had "minions"...lol)

I'd like some minions, too. Where do I sign up for them? LOL!

Donna, I only asked that people not post to the point-whoring groups (PIF, comment me I'll comment you, DB10, etc.) I'm sorry if I made it sound like I didn't want people to post to other pertinent groups.

The first few weeks, I was hopping from one post to another, leaving prompts to lead on character to another, and posting multiple lists of links to help everyone keep up. The job grew too big for me to continue doing that. Honestly, there were not enough hours in the day once we passed 25 characters.

I know you well enough to know you were not trying to belittle my medical condition or to be mean to me in any way - but still appreciate the clarification.  ;-)

Apparently more than one person misunderstood your intent, Sandy, as I've had a couple other people in the group complain about not being allowed to post anywhere else. I've tried to tell them, but apparently they don't believe me. :)

 Oh, oh! I am guilty of reading only friends, and not always keeping up, Sandy. I missed Lynn's posts completely and have read  Barb/Donna and marveled at their ability to co-write. I have some terrible sight right now that keeps me on for shorter and shorter periods, so can SEE where you come from there! Good luck to all involved!
:)

Penni, I appreciate your response and I truly empathize with your sight problem and hope things improve for you.

If you don't mind my asking a few more questions, I would greatly appreciate your response. If I'm understanding your correctly, you appear to share a practice with many others and I would like to understand it.

If you only read friends, why do you join groups?

I have my friends, and I have my groups. I read my friends first, knowing that I will enjoy most anything they post. I read my groups when looking for specific interests, hoping to find what people I am not connect with have posted.  If I didn't want to see the specific interests, and wanted only to read friends, or only to find new people, I don't understand why I would need to join groups - I could just read from my friend feed, or the general feed.

If you, or anyone else, can open my eyes regarding the reason for joining groups that I am not going to visit for topic, I would appreciate it.

This is new to me, Lynn. I didn't know you had to join some groups in order to comment.

You don't need to join any group to comment on articles published to the group unless the group is private--in which case you won't see the article at all. If you can see an article, it's either set to allow anyone to comment, to pre-approve comments, to allow only friends to comment, or to allow no comments. I think we are all familiar with these options from when we publish our own posts. Group membership does not come into play.

The only commenting that depends on group membership involves "group comments" at the bottom of a group home page--more like pings than comments. They are not tied to articles--they are messages to the group owner or anyone who visits. And they are a fairly recent feature that came in with that upgrade that allowed fancy personalization of groups.

Thanks, Aniko. That was my understanding, but I wasn't sure and I haven't been around enough since the last update to know if they had made more changes.

I can't remember why I joined this group. It may have been on a reccomendation. I did not have any hopes or expectations - I have just been watching to see where it goes. I found it very helpful for following people who were participating in the character development exercises, when I was actively writing along with it. (Okay, I have been slacking on that and am begging you not to call charaters protective services on me.)

I had this group's postings emailed to me, but recently had to disable that feature because I was gone for a weekend and it really filled up my mailbox. Plus I was getting duplicate alerts about friends' articles who were also posting to the group, so I'm trying to figure out how to best manage that.

I sort of glance over the poetry stuff because I'm not really into poetry big, but I have learned more about it from those lessons. Maybe one day I'll try one.

As far as quality goes, my understanding was that this was where the more skilled writers posted as well as those who want feedback to improve and develop their style.

I don't read the technical stuff carefully because I'm not into that. I just write and don't tend to think about it. I try to only post what I think is relevant to this group's purpose. I'm not sending in video or pictures or silly stuff. I try to send only what I think is my top shelf writing.

I know how to find the group, no problem.

Is that everything? I'm at work and got distracted with...work.

Thanks for not telling everyone I paid you to join the group.

The check hasn't cleared yet.

(don't hold your breath)

I joined to read and am sorry that so many left me and their Characters hanging! I love reading but have little time or skill for writing fiction... I found myself re writing a conglomeration of my favorite books rather than anything original...

I loved reading the Dixie/Launa co operative as well as the individual stories in each character's 'world'.

Kathleen, thank you for joining to read. I share your disappointement that we might never know what happened with some of these interesting characters.

 Oh, no, no, Sandy. I either worded wrong or you read me wrong. I have kept up with Barb/Donna here, and intend to read Lynn, but every night, as time permits, I read whatever,whomever is on the "feed"list at the time.  Never joined a group just to keep up with friends. This one seemed so bulky at first, I thought I would not have Time to read everything.  With so many members, if only 20 per cent posted weekly, that would be a LOT for anyone to read,yes? :)

Thanks, Penni. I guess I read you wrong - probably because I have wondered why people join groups when they don't care about the purpose and I was hoping to find a way to address that. I apologize and appreciate your explanation.

 And,  **looking shamefaced**  I thought when I joined that I might contribute but right at the start, I could see these writers would leave me in the dust,lol. There, I said it!

But you'll never get better if you don't try, everyone learns something from everyone else, and if you want to improve, we're all willing to help.

I understand being intimidated, but just because someone posts something really good, that doesn't mean other people shouldn't try. They might be the next "really good"!

Penni, I'm sad to see this comment. I failed at making everyone feel welcome, and at letting everyone know that I viewed this as a project in which we could all learn together.

Penni:  I hope you will come back and try.  I too felt I was going to do poorly.  If you are open to some critique and are willint to work at it you might find it fun.

I don't know if I'm in the group.  I don't ever read content from groups.  I just bop in and out of Gather when I can and respond to what I see in my feeds at that time.

Thanks, Peter. It's always fun to see you bop in.

hi sandy.  i haven't done anything with the Tuesday prompts because i was either not feeling well or busy with IRL stuff and by the time i got able to do so, i was so far behind on even starting a character that i didn't know where to start and decided against it all together.

I did some monday and saturday stuff, but unless i could post them on that specific day, i didn't take part so that the next editor wouldn't be forced to figure out where my post was directed to and/or forced to accept or deny it as it didn't go with that day's theme.

obviously if it's becoming too much to handle right now, i don't think anyone would fault you for wanting to withdraw.

Ahh, CC, I left some strong hints for you, hoping you'd add some artwork. I didn't private message you because, well, I do very little private messaging and was going to wait until I needed you for book covers before I went there. I've dropped the ball but don't want to drop the project. If I find a way to welcome new characters without their (your) having to go back and catch up with everything, can I temp you to jump in - with a charater or with artwork?

I would like to design this so people don't feel obligated to participate every week, or lost if they miss a few.

i should be able to do that after the 10th, which is when my next show is.  i'm always swamped before a showing.  i wasn't aware that i could put in some art to the writing group, but i did enjoy doing the one writing prompt Joy did where people used my art as a prompt.  I enjoy seeing what my work can inspire in people.

when i first started doing gather, both Julie George and Wade A. both did a poem around one of my paintings, which was totally awesome.

CC, I was sorta hoping you (and other artists) might do this in reverse. Since I'm not at artistically talented AT ALL, I try to find pictures that look like my characters and hang them on the wall while I'm working on a novel. It would have been fun for me to see your impressions of our characters, or of the carriage house. I've started several times to take a picture of that place to post with the story but decided against it because I didn't want to ruin the images others might have in their heads already.

If you want to submit a picture and challenge the characters to write about it, that would be fun. Any idea you have . . . I wanted this to be fun for everyone and I'm always open to suggestions.

Good luck with the show!

Sandy, I am also unable to play catch-up with all the people who participated from the beginning. If you find that way you're looking for I'd like to get involved now.

Oh goodie! I'm anxious to see what you will do with this, Andrea.

1. What did you hope for when joining the Writing Essential group?

I hoped to write according to prompts which would challenge me, and receive constructive critiques that would help me grow as a writer.

2. Did you join to read what others post to the group? Only to have others read what you post? A combination of the two?

Definitely a combination of the two.  Especially the first few weeks, I read every post to the group, but I couldn't keep up with it all.

3. Do you look at the group's 'posts' list? If so, do you view everything, only what your friends have posted, specific categories (poetry, stories, announcements, etc.)?

Here's my very lazy and unorganized way to read the posts.  I get email notifications when my friends in the group post.  I go to their's and then follow the commentors back to their own articles and read those.  I can't remember ever going to the group page and looking at the list of posts.

4. Do you look at the group only on specific days? Do you post and/or read only what the editor of the day asks for or features?

It was often Friday before I posted my Tuesday WE piece, but I labeled it as Tuesday WE.  I only wrote according to the prompts.  The prompts were part of the problem for me.  I had an old lady busy-body character who didn't fit in very well with some of the prompts.  So, I dropped that character, who was boring me to death in this atmosphere, and started a new character.

5. Is the quality of the writing in the group a concern for you?

The quality for the most part is pretty good.  It's not at all boring to read, with a few exceptions.

6. Are you interested in discussing writing technique?

Yes, I'd like to discuss things like foreshadowing, effective dialogue, even punctuation and grammar.

7. Do you know how to find the group without private messaged reminders from editors?

Yes, but I'm lazier about it.

I'd like to editorialize about a few things.  I think that the prompts were somewhat too specific.  The carriage house was so far out of my character's comfort zone that she would never actually have gone there.  What I'd like to see are prompts such as, "Show your character in conflict with a neigbor or relative."  "Write that your character receives a tremendous disappointment."  I'm not sure I'm making it clear, but what I mean, the prompts could be "loose enough" for each character to react in a natural way.

The other point I'd like to make is that I'd like to see more honest critique.  I actually enjoy it when someone says, "In sentence three you could reword it and tighten it up," or "Your verb doesn't agree with your noun in the fifth sentence of your second paragraph."  Even the "You could edit this to half the words and have a much bigger punch."  As long as it's honest, bring it on.  I'll never learn anything from readers saying, "Very nice."

Now that you're back I think at least part of the enthusiasm for Tuesday WE will return.

Vicky, thank you so much! I appreciate your suggestions (seriously, with all my heart). I'm on the way out but will leave a more detailed comment when I return.

I know I would have left more detailed comments, but I had no way of knowing if you would appreciate it or not. Generally, I'd leave comments similar in detail to the ones left on my post, assuming that the person leaving that kind of comment would appreciate that level of detail.

I hope my stuff was not boring!

Vicky, I've read your suggestions again and want to say again how grateful I am. They are extremely helpful. I'm printing the comments and will take all of this into consideration as I plan how to proceed.

Sandy:

What did you hope for when joining the Writing Essential group?

I saw it as an opportunity to try my hand at writing fiction.  I must say, it took alot for me to do this.  I am perfectionistic at best (not that you can always tell)  and I can take comments to heart some of the time.

 Did you join to read what others post to the group? Only to have others read what you post? A combination of the two?  Mine was a combination.  I enjoyed much of what I read.  I felt comfortable as we went along to critique more directly.  I found at times I did some PM when  it came to errors rather than discussion of the piece as a whole.

Do you look at the group's 'posts' list? No.

 If so, do you view everything, only what your friends have posted, specific categories (poetry, stories, announcements, etc.)?

Do you look at the group only on specific days? Yes

 Do you post and/or read only what the editor of the day asks for or features? Yes

Is the quality of the writing in the group a concern for you? Some of the time.  There are days I do not read because they are not my interest  as well as some days I do not read because I find I need to weed through it to find some of the quality I look for.

Are you interested in discussing writing technique? Most definately!

Part of the reason I stopped writing was my character was difficult for me to write.  Yes Liz has more of a story and I hope to get back to her, but it was too intense with what was happening IRL.  When I stepped away, it was not because of other issues but due to what was going on for me health wise as well as with work and with the world around me in my personal life.

I found the critique on my articles to be done well and I never felt attacked.  I appreciated the comments even if they were done as a 'I stopped to see what you wrote.'  I think there are boundaries and if one wants to bring another character into the mix that is not theirs they need to approach it carefully and address the person first.  Liz is not ready to interact with others.  She is too busy trying to survive and would not have a clue how to deal with the others except perhaps Brian.

Would I do this again?  Yes, if you continue to do this and I can find a way to do this with my schedule I think I would like to.

Thank you, Grems. Your comments are most helpful. I think one of the big things I'm hearing is that I need to focus on a way to make this feel like it's working for everyone even when we can't be here all the time, or aren't interested all of the time. I do plan to continue and/or start over, taking all of these suggestions into consideration.

No problem Sandy.  I know I can pick Liz up at any point and plop here into whatever is going on.

Sandy:  I think an issue as I was reading some of the other comments, I wonder if it may be important to have folks talk about what type of critique they would like to have.  I make typo's all of the time and I am not a great proofreader.  I'm not insulted if someone calls me on that kind of stuff.  I know that is an issue for me.  However, not everyone has that tolerance.  Folks need to be honest about the type of critique they would like to have.  There were folks I did not critique, just addressed  storyline or made general comments because I found there were issues when comments were misunderstood or taken to heart.

Grems, I don't think it is possible for us to keep track of who wants what. To me, it is much easier to say, "You must accept critique if you are involved in this project." With that understanding, the rest of us will not have to walk on eggshells.

Sandy, that is just fine with me. 

Sandy,

i have always admired your writing. I read your projects, and I love to read when somebody posts about their characters as well. Character writing is not something I do. I am a poet first and foremost, and occassionally get on my soapbox about something or try to get people to look beyond the surface of what they mean when they call themselves a Christian. I have written only 1 or 2 short stories, and they had as much basis in reality as fiction. I do read what people post as challenges, or topics of the day, and if I have something to contribute, I love to do so. I comment when I can, but sometimes my time is so limited that it takes me days to catch up, so I have to eventually miss some, not to mention my notifications don't always get here. I have trouble keeping up with so many groups, which is why I use the notifications instead, though I try to be connected to the owner of my groups to know if there is a challenge.

ok, I really run off at the fingers....LOL I hope I answered your questions anyway...

Lisa, I'm like Lynn. Much of my fiction is based in part on reality - an experience I, or someone I know, has lived through, usually turned into a better story. I understand the time and interest constraints but hope you know you are welcome if you ever decide to join us.

Sandy, I was looking for structure, motivation, deadlines (additional motivation) and a billion good reads.  My timing was really bad, because I was finishing up the cram part of a semester, and a project at work.  So, I fell off the creative wagon, and got behind.  Ya'all had left the alley, by the time I closed the semester, and I was frustrated at being a "big behind."  I enjoyed it the writing, and the reading very much, even though I only posted a few articles to the Character Development Club. 

I enjoyed trying to twist up the challenges you provided, and the guides you put in place to help us through (or start us out) on the Road Creative. 

Also, It was easier to find folks' posts when I learned a bit more about groups, and connecting correctly. 

Blush!  I'm a dropout.  Tell me where to jump back in...I'm really out of touch.

Wilka

Wilka, just drop back in! :)

__________ jumping back in point for Wilka.

__________ an extra for anyone else who would like to jump back in.

Sandy-I tried reading all of the comments, but decided just to stop and put in my own 2 cents.

     I joined your group because it was YOUR group, and because of I recognized that the people who were signing up, were writers that I respected here and I knew it would be interesting. I was outside of my comfort zone, and jumped in anyway-which is something I highly recommend. I loved it at first, and I think you had a great concept of the characters crossing over etc. It challenged me, and I also found myself getting interested in some of the other characters. But, I got overwhelmed. So many people got involved, and I tried in the beginning to read and comment on every thing that each person wrote. Sometimes that was difficult, as there were a few that I really didn't enjoy and yet I tried to find something positive to say. As the number of exercises grew, and the number of members jumped in late with new characters, and I tried to come up with ideas for Martha-I couldn't keep up. I burned out. The thrill I felt in the beginning began to feel like work and obligation, and I just couldn't do it anymore. It had nothing to do with you, and everything to do with what I could take on.

As for the constant talk of cliques here, and in other past articles. It makes me want to scream. Everyone has people in their lives they trust or like better than others. It doesn't really matter if it is on a website, or in your own neighborhood. I gave up this "best friend" crap in junior high, and I think it comes up here much too often. I consider many on Gather to be friends, some on different levels than others. There are those who I feel maternal towards, those who share some issues about kids that I do, some that love to travel as I do, and some who have simply become close for no obvious reason. Some of these people I talk to on the phone, I have their addresses, I got Christmas cards from them. If I have 5 minutes to read stuff here, I will read those people first. If I have an hour, I will make that circle larger and so on. I may follow one of my "friends" comments to another article...that doesn't mean we are ganging up, it just is a natural flow of things. There were people I didn't comment on as much, but to be blunt about it, it was more likely that I didn't like what they wrote and didn't want to hurt their feelings. It had nothing to do with supporting my friends. I would guess others would say the same. Yes, there are groups of people here who have become close friends, who support each other through tough times and good times. So, why is that anything different than what goes on in our real lives. I just don't get the energy that is wasted on this topic.

Sue, thank you, very much.

This is key: "So many people got involved, and I tried in the beginning to read and comment on every thing that each person wrote."

Illness and eye problems aside, I was overwhelmed myself. Ideally, we would open the door to everyone with the understanding that people would drift to what interested them because it would be impossible to keep up with 50 characters. And I agree with the rest of your comment - characters grouping with like characters is the same as what goes on in our real lives.

Sue*, I miss Martha! I am one of the 'readers' who found it at times overwhelming because there were so many interesting characters and I was having trouble keeping up. There were so many characters who's stories intrigued me! Unfortunately there were a couple that held no interest for me and I just stopped trying to keep up.

I also missed Vickie's curmudgeonly old lady as well as Lori's. Ialso miss Liz, and Brain and Aaron and...

Exciting conversation and dialogue, goodness I need 3 lives to keep up with you Sandy.

My brain cannot handle rigorous rules and trite conversation, reading is more fun even when it is trite.

Especially taken with chicken questions and long winded explanation about what I do no like or cannot understand and try to explain it to others who really do not give a damn anyway.....

If I had the gift of gab- writing I would say interesting things everyone wants to know, like: why do we have the ability to write and speak and still cannot communicate properly? It would be easier with telepathy as in : do you feel what I feel, great!

In the end words matter little if our intentions do not match our desire.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions, not sure who said that, but he must have tried it !

Just for fun...ignore me...

"In the end words matter little if our intentions do not match our desire."

Amen, Lea. I love you!

I did not witness those things, I hear some of it has disappeared so I couldn't find it if I wanted, and I believe it happened somewhere outside my group - so why it has affected my group or is being discussed on this thread is a mystery to me.

It was happening in this group. Those same people were in this group, that are in the other groups referred to here. Many of us wrote and were avoided by them. Acknowledging each other is crucial in a learning environment. When there are (what?) 30 people in a group wanting to learn to either write fiction or perfect their own ability to write fiction, and some of us only got five or six comments from the same people three or four people, something is amiss. I got to know Barb Carlson and Donna F through your group. I did not know them before then.

Sandy, you know who those people are. I don't need to provide names.

I really NEED a SPELL CHECK!!!!

Use Mozilla browser, it has spell check incorporated in it as you write and underlines the word in red for you to click on it and gives you the correct spelling. so you can learn the word or just fix oversight.

I love it since my fingers forget where the letter is!

Sandy:  I feel very frustrated and sad when I read some of the comments as these issues were not directly related to this group.  You mentioned a thick skin clause and I feel that is very important.  I freely admit I did not read everyone's stuff.  It became to overwhelming especially when some folks did every option.  I have a job which is demanding and I have a life beyond Gather.  (as I hope we all do) 

I am sorry people felt betrayed or hurt because I did not read their stuff, but  read the stuff of some folks I know better.  I think most people will read the stuff others who they know better first dependent on the time they have. 

There are many below the surface accusations being made and I find that distressful as well.  If others wish to beat a dead horse then that is likely to put an end to participation for many people.  Those issues were not a part of this project and they need to stay where they were an issue.  Not be dragged over here.  I would find that sad. 

One current participant has begun another character which has caught my eye.  I may make some time to read that.  However, I do not feel it is appropriate to have to justify who and I read and why.  We all have different interest, tastes and time availability.

Please remove the extra and in the second to the last sentence.

Grems, you hit on some important issues. Time and interest will always determine who and what people read. Somewhere along the way, I hinted (maybe outright asked) everyone to invite friends who were not already involved. It would be wonderful if each member of the group had time to read and comment on every submission but I don't think that will ever happen.

I tried it for a while, spent 40 - 60 hours a week doing so, and still could not keep up. That put me in a dangerous position because, as group leader, I could not comment on one person's content and not another's without hurting feelings and leaving myself vulnerable to accusations of - well, playing favorites or being part of a clique.

I also neglected my connections who were not participating and ignored other topics that are important to me, so I understand the 'pull' some people might have felt if they tried to keep up. I don't want anyone to look at this as an obligation or burden. I hoped to relieve those possibilities by making this as flexible as possible - no deadlines, do as much or as little as you like. What I did not address was how we could make everyone feel included. Maybe we can work in groups in the future? Any suggestions?

Sandy, I think  if people want to work in groups as some have done that is fine. I invited some people to read some of Liz because I knew they would be able to pick up on some of what I was trying to say and give me suggestions.  I do look at articles people post if they specifically ask me to.  I cannot proofread my own stuff worth anything, but I can do it with other people's stuff.

I like the concept of the flexibility.  I do want to do some of the older stuff with Liz, but I'm not sure when there will be time. 

I think it may be good if people work in groups and agree to critique others work specifically. It does not mean that someone else will not read and critique, but it means there are certain people who will do their best to come and read what their group members have written. 

smaller groups within the group sounds fine, but you need to delegate someone in each smaller group with some ability to critique effectively. There was way too much "that's great!" when it really wasn't.

Or do we all go back to little groups of favorite friends?

And Grems, you did visit my articles a couple of times and attempted to critique (right before the group dissipated)

I do have Firefox with spell check. It doesn't work any more since the last gather upgrade.

I think people will read what interests them, it could be by genre or it could be by choice.  I do not think you can do the group thing in an arbitrary manner.  Let people flock as they wish.  This is not a class and folks will get out of it what they want.

by all means, do what ever you want.

i've made up my mind to stay out of it completely.

1. I joined because it was your project, Sandy, and it was exciting that Gather was finally recognizing you and considering "writing" as deserving some kind of support or attention. I knew at the very beginning that I wasn't going to be able to keep up time-wise, and I said so. (Been planning to have that BRAIN character kick the bucket in some particularly silly way from day 1.) I did hope I would be able to keep up with others' posts.

2. I get notified of posts in the Wee WE group. I used to click on most articles, but again, wasn't able to keep up.

3. I don't usually look at the "big" Writing Essential group. The other day I used to follow was Saturday.

4. I'm a despicable elitist. I'll struggle through clumsy writing if the content is really interesting, like a personal story worth reading, but when it comes to fiction, I find it hard to get through it if it's badly written and even if I do, I have trouble coming up with a good comment.

5. Yes.

6. Yes. (Notifications, group list.)

7. Not at this point, unfortunately. Some of the attrition has been natural, I think (like in my case, not being able to keep up), and some has been due to the things that have already been mentioned here.

Thank you, Aniko. I appreciate your response.

I would hate to see anything happen to Brian/Brain. I like him.

Hello Sandy,

Enjoy the summer sun while you can - we've had nothing but rain, even had a tornado the other night a couple towns over. Send us some sun, if you can ;)

I'd like to answer these, because I am a member, but have been for a long time of Writing Essentials and then I joined specifically Tuesdays as well.

___________________________________________________________

What did you hope for when joining the Writing Essential group? Did you join to read what others post to the group? Only to have others read what you post? A combination of the two?

_______________________________________________________

A combination of the two, certainly.

____________________________________________________

Do you look at the group’s ‘posts’ list? If so, do you view everything, only what your friends have posted, specific categories (poetry, stories, announcements, etc.)?

____________________________________________________

I viewed as much as I had time for, being that I currently have too many responsibilities outside of Gather and also write for a few other groups. I will say I did the best I could, with what time I had and also spent many hours writing my own characters for this group, offline.

I view whatever I have time for, as I'm not able to be online every day. I'm here thanks to Lynn telling me this was here.

_________________________________________________________

Do you look at the group only on specific days? Do you post and/or read only what the editor of the day asks for or features?

Is the quality of the writing in the group a concern for you?  --- Only to an extent. Many people that want to learn can still or ought to be able to create a character and try here, and in that way learn, and providing the critique doesn't make them feel like total idiots, they'll have the courage to keep going and improve.

Are you interested in discussing writing technique?-- Yes.

Do you know how to find the group without private messaged reminders from editors?-- Yes.

_________________________________________________

For the record, I'm one who left, deleted three groups of my own, which I'd put heart and soul into and more hours and days of writing than I could ever tell you, and Mark deleted one, and while he's never really written before, he was trying and actually starting to enjoy it. The reasons we left and asked Gather to delete our groups, had nothing to do with you not being here -- both of us can certainly understand illness and the most upset we got about it, was worried.

We were two of the ones that 'other things' happened to, from people within this group and the only person who actually stuck up for us, ended up getting flagged, and it turned into a real mess. I'll fill you in if you really want me to. Didn't go into it when we talked, we had a lot of other things to chat about and well, none of it was remotely your fault.

Marilyn

Thanks, Marilyn. I'm sorry you and Mark deleted your work and hope you have it saved somewhere else.

I'm glad you mentioned this: "Many people that want to learn can still or ought to be able to create a character and try here, and in that way learn, and providing the critique doesn't make them feel like total idiots, they'll have the courage to keep going and improve." Absolutely, I want new writers to feel comfortable in this group. I hope I haven't given the impression that I expect everyone to be polished - in that case, I wouldn't belong. When I speak of 'serious' about writing, I mean willing to learn with the rest of us.

I would rather not hear the details of the 'other things' and appreciate that you protected me from them when we spoke. I want to know the problems people have with me or my group - not with anyone else.

i'm a member of the Gather Writing Essentials.  i am also one of the accused clique because i gave a critique on a post from another group member who was complaining about a WE editor (different day) and how she never gets critiques.  i refrained from commenting on her writing in the past as i felt she couldn't handle honesty and has a history of taking comments to mean something other than what they are meant to be, and i was right as once i did give her my honest opinion, i was called a pathological liar over and over on unrelated articles even, since she didn't agree with my assessment of her writing.

it's this kind of behavior that makes people not want to participate, and i have since avoided looking at anything else by this person, whom i see is still complaining about the lack of comments and views.

this has nothing to do with you as an editor, but may help explain why so many people are refraining from participating in this groups activities as many of us just don't want to have to deal with the psychotic, nor wish to drag you into the mele of chaos these people create out of jealousy for lack of popularity from "the in crowd" as we were so called.  (a title that still cracks me up every time i think about it, since we so don't see it ourselves)

From the sidelines:

You are incredibly cool, Sandy!

Sandy, as a reader I found myself really enjoying many of the characters and posts in the Tuesday writing group. I ended up joining the WeWE group as the Tuesday pieces were what I really wanted to read.

I am not "into" poetry per se... except the rare piece that actually "Speaks to" me rather than confuses me. ;~P

I miss many of the characters that were created for your group... the ones I posted above as well as Mr Tinker, The Ferryman, Alpha and Omega and the transgendered critter who's name I can't remember not to mention Seefids and Healinglite and, and, and.... ;~} oh dear,  Wilka's Character etc etc...

As you can see I can't keep track of their names never mind the stories... they  all interested me each in their own way, oh and Liz and Russel and...

I did notice that many wandered away while you were gone and then there were some misunderstandings and then outright battles between a couple of members... which I tried really hard to avoid getting dragged into.

I have to admit (sorry Lynn) that the stuffed animal stories were just not my cup of tea but the writing was good, just not a character type that interested me. So I basically didn't choose to read them.

I think it might work better for your needs to find a way to keep your Tuesday group separate from the other Writing Essentials if only to make it easier for those who JUST want to participate in THAT group.

Also if you end up being gone for a while maybe have some one post a little notice to the group letting them know that you are away due to other issues NOT that you are avoiding any one.

I also think you might start out from the beginning (or New beginning) with a disclaimer that states what you are looking for, and letting people know that if they don't see or hear from you that it is either due to life getting in the way or the sheer volume of submissions and NOT that you didn't "like" what any one person was submitting!

1. I joined because iI wanted to learn to write very well.  I wanted to have the rules, and have enjoyed completing the prompts.

2. Did you join to read what others post to the group? Only to have others read what you post? A combination of the two?

I joined for a combination of the two.  I wanted to learn how to write and I have really enjoyed reading what I have been able to read.  It is time consuming though, and I am unsure how you have been able to keep up, because I cannot.

I started out finding Launa's story, by following a comment or something.  But now I come to the group and find what has been posted.  Also, my feeds will tell me when something has posted.  I have tried to read everyone's posts, but, I have only been successful in getting thru two of them.

4. Do you look at the group only on specific days? Do you post and/or read only what the editor of the day asks for or features?

Since I have joined, very late in the game... I have just kind of tried to do the prompts on my own.  I have posted like the Carriage house, or the field trip.  I tried to do the description of my character and I still cannot thank Barb C enough for doing all of that work to help me out with my wording and wayyyy tooo many comma's!!! Also, I have written all the prompts in a journal, and write what I can, when I can

5. Is the quality of the writing in the group a concern for you?

The quality, I think personally is awesome from what I have read.  I feel like I am not in the same league as you guys... But, because I like to write, I figured I woudl learn something.  It has all been interesting and I think it sounds like real books

6. Are you interested in discussing writing technique?

Yes!!!! very much!!! I need sooo much help with things like dialogue, punctuation, they need to put a spell check on here somewhere too, but, I am getting a dictionary soon:)

7. Do you know how to find the group without private messaged reminders from editors?

Yes

I apologize, as I do not feel like I am the person to critique anyone on here, unless I just happen to catch a misspelling, but even then, I am unsure if I should tell someone.... I on the other hand, love for someone to tell me that I misspelled something or if I have worded something wrong.  I am no shrinking violet and I feel like if I put something out there, I want someone to tell me what I am doing wrong.

I hope the you are feeling better now.  I haven't really had a chance to talk with you, but, as I cannot keep up with more than two stories at a time.  I have no idea how in the world you can keep up with everyones

It is very ironic that I started removing myself from groups today.  I, too, have joined groups so that I could comment.... but, then you are bombarded with 1000's of emails and it has gotten frustrating to find what I want to find... are you a mind reader too? LOL

please disregard any misspellings and errors in that above, I see them! LOL

good deal, they are there though

Welcome, Barb. I hope to be back in full swing soon, and to catch up on what you are doing.

Thanks Sandy, I hope you like what I have done......

I also hope that u are feeling much better too

barb,

I read typo, it's one of my second languages ;)

Kathleen,

Thank you so much for saying that you miss Healinglite and Seefids, it means more than I can ever tell you. *sigh*

Awesome!!! typo is something I seem to be very friendly with myself:)

Someone flagged this for hate speech? Are you friggin' kidding me?

Hate speech!?  I may not agree with some folks but that is much different than hate speech.

I read it Marilyn, but I still see no reason for this article to be flagged. No one here mentioned anyone by name in a negative way. CC mentioned "another group member" without naming names, and I guess Kathleen did say that Lynn's stuffed animal stories weren't her "cup of tea" but she said it politely. So, there is as I can see it no violation of TOS anywhere on this post, unless it is where you attacked Barb above.

Truthfully, I don't care enough about any of this to fight this battle. The one thing that I do care about is the fact that Sandy tried to do something good, as did the other WE editors. What it seems like to me is that a few people got their feelings hurt that they weren't getting as many comments as some of the more "popular" people and it snowballed into a mess. I am forever amazed at how grown people behave on this website.

I found it hard keeping up with everyone's posts appropriately.  Also, the novel I was working on had several characters, without a main protagonist, so it was difficult to shape the task to my work.  I thought about creating a main character to simply do the tasks with, but that felt artificial.

I crave true critique and I am very willing to provide that for others.  I think your goal was a good one, I just found that it was difficult for me to participate in it.

I think if there are issues which are of a personal nature between people in this group, it should be dealt with in a private manner.  I also think if you (meaning anyone with personal issues regarding the interactions with others) feel you need to deal with this perhaps contacting Gather Member support might be the best way to go.  I really do not want to read the personal vendetta's here and do not think that is the purpose of the article. 

I don't remember what I came here to say. LOL fatigue has set in. If there's one term I wish would completely disappear from the site, the internet, and the WORLD, it is LOL, which is never applied to anything funny anyway.

Hey, I like LOL when used in conjunction with something that really is funny. But I'm in the minority in some groups and I try to keep it to a minimum so other people's heads don't blow off. (okay, I'd like to add LOL here but I won't) (wait, I just did!) (oops)

All I have to say, Kris, is that I love your comments and I'm tickled pink when you say something on one of my threads.

Since you don't remember, Kris, I'll remind you. You came here to say that you are ready to jump in.

We need you. Please consider it.

What did you hope for when joining the Writing Essential group?

Some interesting reading.

Did you join to read what others post to the group?

Yes. I joined to read, and not to write, other than the occasional comment.

Do you look at the group’s ‘posts’ list? If so, do you view everything, only what your friends have posted, specific categories (poetry, stories, announcements, etc.)?

I used to. I'm no longer a member of the group.

Do you look at the group only on specific days? Do you post and/or read only what the editor of the day asks for or features?

I rarely look at the group anymore.

Is the quality of the writing in the group a concern for you?

Not anymore.

Are you interested in discussing writing technique?

Not really, although I did read a book about punctuation on my vacation.

Do you know how to find the group without private messaged reminders from editors?

Who doesn't? Isn't there a link to it at the bottom of every single Gather page?

Last week, there were 1,870 comments posted to the 269 posts in this group. That’s around 14 comments per post and not even one comment or post per member. Do you have suggestions for improving these numbers?

No. I can say that I usually read without commenting. Sometimes I really don't have much to say, other than "this was great", "this sucked", "this was OK", "I've read this before", "I can't get past the obvious typo in your title", or "what the hell is this doing in the Writing group?" but I usually just say those things to myself and move on.

Call me a snob if you like, but I usually don't read posts from those whose work I haven't really cared for in the past, unless it comes across my feed via a comment by one of my firends or I stumble into it on the Recent Articles list. I just don't have the time.

Why the heck is this flagged as hate speech? I don't see anything hateful here, unless it was deleted. Disagreeing is not being hateful.

This is where a strong moderator/teacher presence is useful. Set guidelines/rules so everyone knows what is expected.

I did read and try to comment on everything in the group. I wasn't much into the story of Tee, but I gave it a shot. I do think Lynn's writing got better as she went along. I got more into the story after a while, but I'm not sure if that was because the writing got better or because I got to know Lynn.

I do wish we could just drop the whole disagreement and get moving forward again. I appreciate that each person has an opinion and their thoughts and feelings are important, but I'm getting tired of that particular topic. Can we complain about how comma use rules have changed over the last 20 years? :) [See Kris, I didn't use it!]

Indeed, I think a brawl about whether or not to use the serial comma would be much more exciting.

This is flagged for hate speech for several reasons: 1) Gather professes to be an adult site but does nothing to encourage adult behavior. They'll tell us NOT to bother flagging known copy & paste/stolen work and do nothing about the people who have flagged approximately 200 of my articles (no joke) for no reason, 2) someone who is too immature to read and respond appropriately to an adult conversation came in and hit the flag button instead of trying to express him/herself, 3) there are people who will flag and low rate anything I post - because they can, and 4) it was a weekend and someone thought they could stop the conversation without intervention from Gather staff.

All reasons duly noted.

Lynn, I think you have been extremely unfair to me. I did nothing but support and appreciate you, and this is what you think I deserve in return? I don't agree. I also think you might want to be more careful about buying into "clique" stories. In the past, there was a group (might still be around for all I know) named The Clique. I objected strongly to some of their actions, but never to their right to befriend one another and not me or everyone else.

In the real world, people will usually gravitate to others who share their interests, personalites, goals, or location. At one point, there were so many characters that it was not likely everyone would devote the time to keeping up with all of them. It made perfect sense that people would follow those that interested them most. I suggested several times that everyone should invite friends (maybe I should have specified similar interests) to participate. Neither I, nor anyone else in this group, can be responsible for making sure each person is read as often as they want, or that everyone will appreciate their work or like them personally. That is an unreasonable expectation.

Those who joined because they were interested in a character development project should be able to continue the exercises regardless of who does or does not enjoy or comment on their work. I admit that I have missed some posts during the last few weeks but before that I did not see anyone leave unkind comments on any posts in this project, nor did I hear that that happened when I was away.

Winning? Who the hell won?

really? promise?  i was just answering sandy as to why i don't participate, (perfect example why since you take everything i say and twist it) without naming names.  not my fault if you felt like outing yourself to everyone about your behavior.  so don't blame sandy for your in ability to handle life and having to make everything about you.

i never had anything against you until you started lying about me and my friends.  you dug your own grave, lay in it and stop blaming others for your failures.

sorry sandy that this had to happen to you.  but then again, i do once remember being called part of your "ilk" a while back, which i'm still giggling about how people just can't handle being everyone's best friend.

Yes, CC, I've been accused of having minions, ilks, cliques, and maybe even friends. I'm glad you are giggling and hope that means your association with me (real or imagined) didn't cause you too much pain. I did read everything on this thread but didn't remember you using a name and didn't want to ask. I wanted to discuss my group and problems anyone had with me or my project - not what was going on between individuals.

I'm not sure why anyone thinks it is my duty to step in when two adults have a problem unrelated to the writing project. If it will smooth any feathers, I'll repeat what I would have said to my kids in similar circumstances. "What if she had called you a ballerina, a water balloon, or a chair? Would that make you any of those things? Of course not. So, why are you listening when she calls you _____?"

that is why i didn't name names, Sandy, nor did i wish to have you dragged into the middle of something that isn't your problem.  i only wrote what i did as there were several references to cliques and blame on others for why some people don't get as many comments as some.  it's not just one person doing that either.  but some will always play the part of "squeaky wheel" no matter what you do.

and wasn't it because of being named as "your ilk" that we ended up realizing we weren't connected?  so see, there is always a way to turn lemons into lemonade.

I don't want anyone to walk on egg shells around me, CC. As adults, we should be able to discuss problems without falling apart - even using names (I know I'm in the minority on that part).

"What if she had called you a ballerina, a water balloon, or a chair? Would that make you any of those things? Of course not. So, why are you listening when she calls you _____?"

Sandy, this is one of the best comments I have ever seen when dealing with the subject of name calling.

It made my kids laugh, Grems, and they were over caring what someone had called them.

It's late, Ihad a busy weekend and I'm tired. I will return tomorrow, when the ridiculous flag is removed, to respond to individual comments. Meanwhile, I have read everything and appreciate all comments.