God as a Political Sidekick

This topic makes my heart so heavy that I don't really think I could accurately represent my feelings in a comment. I suppose it feels worse for those who, like me, are more certain than not that there is no god. Actually, I bet it feels the worst for those who have a genuine love for their god and who have a genuine desire to please their god and see their god's will be done. It really must break their hearts.

Do we assume that those who believe and love their God are not happy with the way things are going?  You assume that because you are deeply offended by world events that they must be also.  The way I see it, God fearers/lovers are all too happy to see the world spirling out of control, that just makes the end of the world all that much closer for them.  They love seeing so called prophecies fulfilled.  Who do you think elects the people in Washington?  Those idiots really believe that the elected officials are as God fearing as they are ...when all the time they are using the bible and Gods word for their own agenda...this is a real sore spot with me when it comes to Obama...but at least he doesn't rub it in people's noses or use his beliefs for political gain as far as I can see..and does anyone think that a person could be elected President without them saying they have some religious belief?

I've gone off willy nilly...I do that ...when something makes me so mad and crazy...such as religion and Government intertwined and used for war/hate

What I assume is that people who love their god would be upset that such atrocities are done in its name. I would think that the believers wouldn't want to see an end to their god's creation, but I suspect that different factions and religions have different views on the end. I certainly have seen posts here on gather that appear to be evidence that there are those who crave the end.

And no, of course I don't think anyone would be elected to high office, in fact, I've read that many states' constitutions forbid atheists from holding office.

spirling should be spiraling

I heard the bit about state constitutions forbidding atheists from holding office...and am not surprised, disappointed yes, as I am with so much

Beings that I am now an outsider to the world of religion and have as little to do with it as possible, I don't know from first hand knowledge what is said in churches across this land in the past few 3 decades..tho I do happen across by chance on TV, church services or Evangelists.  I can only fall back on the forced religious upbringing I had before I reached 18.  I was taught from a young age about the Mark of the Beast, the End of Times, The Great Rapture when the Believers will be swept away before all Hell breaks loose...they believe this with all thier beings and do nothing to stop it because...hey,...they're not going to be around for the really bad stuff so let it come....

My point?  It's all in God's hands and the bible prophecies are coming true..as they see it...so why intercede?  Am I repeating myself?  Sorry

Katherine, not all people of faith are jonesing for the end times, not all believe in Armageddon, not all are like the loudest example of the faithful known as "the Christian Right". 

I believe in God but I do not blame Him (Her) for things done in His name by people.  People have free will and act as they choose.  Those who blame God for their own actions are merely employing yet another means of avoiding responsibility.

It does pain me to see all the evil done in the name of one whom I consider to be the embodiment of love and life.

Rory, people of faith?  "Faith" meaning...a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny?   Do your faithful believe the Bible to be the word of God?  How about those that lay everything in God's hands?  Are they blaming God and / or praising God for everything in their life?  Where you say blame...to them perhaps it's the will of God.  Can you say that every harmful action that is done in the name of God is evil?

The God in the Kings James Bible is not a happy go lucky kind of guy.  The Bible has countless examples of God laying a heavy hand on humans.  Why would it be divine intervention in the Bible but when modern day humans act in the name of God their actions are evil?

I am aware that some people who invoke God's name for an act of violence is mouthing the words and has never believed in God.  But...there are those who do believe in God, who do believe that God is guiding them...they are both just as guilty of wrong doing.

What I mean, Katherine, by "people of faith" is people who believe that there is a higher power, a Creator of all things who seeks a relationship with us, His creations.  There are many ways that people imagine what that Creator encompasses and they do not all come from the Christian Bible.  Even amongst those that are influenced by the Christian Bible, there are many different interpretations of that Bible and what it means, what it stands for.

I do not personally believe that God controls human destiny.  I believe He gave us the great gift of free will and that this gift comes with a heavy price tag:  responsibility.  Having been given this great gift we must mature and learn to accept the consequences of our actions and stop blaming God for them.

To me the Bible contains truth, but that truth was directed at a people who lived thousands of years ago, were uneducated and mostly illiterate.  They had an infantile comprehension of science, nature and the universe around them.  Within that frame of reference they could hardly understand a complex, nuanced, expansive ideal of the nature of God, and I believe this is why the God of the old Testament in particular takes the form of a very stern parent:  it is a childish view of God.  Little children often fear their parents wrath, even if their parents are not abusive.  They are big and powerful and their anger can be very unsettling. 

With so many forces of nature being unknown to the people of the time, they attributed many things to divine intervention that we would today attribute to meteorolgical phenomenon, plate tectonics, astrophysics and other natural phenomenon that we now know more about.

Just because someone believes in God and believes that God has instructed them, either through their understanding of sacred writings or through some personal connection they feel they have with the Almighty, to take drastic action does not mean that this is true. 

I respect everyone's right to believe as they will.  But when those beliefs result in actions that interfere with the human rights of others then they must pay the consequences for their actions.  Human laws will impose consequences in many cases.  I personally believe that the laws of the universe, created by a wise and loving God, will extract a more certain price from them in time.

If man hadn't created god as a construct, they would have developed a magic talking, immortal dragon, or miracle trees that sing; SOMEthing to be used to prop up and endorse the greedy dreams of a few (o-so-smart and manipulative) men.

Reminds me of "The Great and Powerful Oz."  "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain."  THAT is what all religions appear to be--to me--a false-faced sham.

NOW, it has become a way to tax the populace a flat 10% (tithe) AND avoid paying taxes to the government, all the while acting as a lobbyist group--and without adhering to the standard lobbyist rules and regulations.

Impressive!  And a mighty, almighty sin against the people it says it serves.

Wilka (a non-believer)

And that's just in our time...think back centuries...when the different religions ruled ...Your life and livelyhood depended on your ability to stay true to the Church's teachings..never mind that the religions changed with the changing of the king or queens

"If man hadn't created god as a construct....."

And what, pray tell, is that assumption based upon??....

Berf?

Reality. 

Thanks for asking.

Elizabeth?

You're kidding!

Right?

Thanks for asking.

If there is no creator of humanity, humanity will create one.  God, or the concept of an all powerful ALLY of the government, is necessary to for control of the great mass of people.  THE VERY IDEA OF A GOD IS ANTI DEMOCRATIC.

Kathy W.??

An assumption is not reality.

Thanks for answering.

Sorry, I was so busy agreeing with you, I forgot to tell you that I thoroughly enjoyed your post.  So, thank you for posting this for us.

W

"If there is God, she/he must be already sick and tired of all these people around the globe who steal, lie, kill, torture, and abuse in his/her name."

100% agree! One simply couldn't put it better.

Blessings and best wisnes - S.

Men blame God for their own failures. God is the ultimate Rorschach.

That said - my feeling is that existence/non-existence is one of those pairs of opposites, which whatever is referred to by the "construct", God, is not limited.

In other words, there would be a difference between man's projections and mysteries, as they are in themselves. That's what's so wonderous about science and meditation - both develop the ability to perceive the latter, while gaining distance from the former.

Finally, with regard to Mars, which is what this article is essentially about, people might stop and reflect exactly which "deity" they are worshipping. Thanks for (once again) pointing out the hypocrisy of how religions abuse that which they profess to worship.

Thank god there is no God.

Thank GOD that God and god(s) are not GOD.

The thing I find saddest is that most of my brethren who believe strongly in God will probably not read an article such as this... they have their set ideas on what to believe and do not take kindly to criticism. As one who does believe in God, it is painful to see all that is done in his/her name. Thanks for the article... I'll get this book!

"...most of my brethren who believe strongly in God will probably not read an article such as this... "

Very sad, but true.

Very well said.... some people's thinking is really warped!

Yes, I hate that people project onto God all their own human emotions. There is a saying that God created mankind in his image and then we returned the favor. My concept of God is not a bearded judge sitting on a cloud, but rather a force/intelligence/energy of love. I have seen fundamentalist Christians write as if they alone are spokesperson for God and know exactly what God would want. And lately that has been about killing people like Dr. Tiller who they claim are taking lives. And yet, they applaud vigilante action and cold-blooded murder themselves. The hypocrisy is chilling.

Absolutely right, Carla, it breaks the heart.  The bible does warn about these kind of christians.  Still, it is hard to see.  It also requires each of us to step back and evaluate ourselves least we unknowingly become like that, too.

I agree with some aspects of some of the above comments. Ironic that much of the greatest evil and misery in the world is attached to someone's idea of God. Unfortunately, man made God in his image, not the other way around as is the popular conception.

On one hand religious texts portray god as infinite and omniscient, and then the same religious texts and their followers portray God as some anthropomorphic fellow who has the same needs and desires as human beings. And to make it all worse they come up with idea after idea of what God wants -- God want's one side to emerge victorious over the other in a war, and the World Series winning pitcher who is certain his team won because God was on his side.

I always find it ironic that so many Christians argue so "righteously" about having "God" (In God We Trust) printed on our money, when the whole crucifixion scenario began with Jesus throwing the money changers out of the temple. Why would anyone imagine a contemplative God would want his name on our money, the bulk of which (majority of our tax dollars) we use every year to build weapons and forces that are designed to kill "his children?"

In my view, we'd all be better off to drop religion and recognize that it's better to acknowledge God as something we can't fully understand rather than miscategorize what God is. Religion, by its nature of defining and structuring in man's terms drains the life out of spirituality.

Now there's a terrific comment for you...and every word in it is true.

Amen !

Robert, I understand how you feel. When one encounters a discussion on "religion" there is often a fundamentalist or religious zealot who feels that they have the right religion and the only true religion and the rest are wrong. That basically shuts off all discussion and throws people on the defensive.

Yes Carla, it's frustrating because it's a closed system. They (maybe not all) believe that anything contrary to their own belief is satanic, and they can't see the value of reason because many were either indoctrinated (not "taught" into it at an early age, or they had some life changing - hit bottom sort of event, or they did something they can't live with so they need to turn the page by becoming born again. -- Not that those are horrible sins of behavior, but they often make the person adament about beliefs that really are entirely a matter of faith rather than knowledgde.

The human perception of the nature of God is limited by our own imaginations.  The universe, and perforce its Creator, are far grander and more complex than we can know.

Those who project a judgemental God, a wrathful God, a God willing to condone military force and violence are merely projecting their own inner feelings and using God as a mask for and a justification of them.

God remains undiminished by their small mindedness.

"God remains undiminished by their small mindedness."

And on this truth we can pin our hopes and dreams.

Yes, Rory, it is the "God Is On Our Side" mentality that has, perhaps, irked me the most over the years........

Beautifully put, Rory.

Elizabeth M:

Your god does not much sound like a "loving god."

He sounds very cruel, vengeful, and egotistical.  I think you might be selling your own god short--very short.  If, as a lot of Christians claim, he is "all knowing, all seeing...etc...etc...etc.

In fact, he sounds a lot like the zealots' god.  One that enjoys death, distruction, and breaking down civilization. 

Even when I thought I was a "christian" I would have pooh-poohed the image of your god.

W

Of course, Elizabeth, you are free to believe as you will.  I believe the stories in the Bible are allegorical, not literal.  There are morals being conveyed by them, not actual stories of actual people (though some surely were actual people, or perhaps amalgams of many actual people in some cases). 

The God I believe in is the Creator of all things.  He is the embodiment of life and love, two things which I see as synonymous with God.  He is our parent who loves us and wishes for us to evolve to be like Him.  I do not believe He chooses sides in human conflict, be they modern of from Biblical times.  I do not believe he favoured Israelites over Egyptians. 

I also believe that those who read the Bible and believe the stories, rather than contemplate what deeper truths the stories are a vehicle for conveying, are missing the point of the entire book.

As I said, you are free to believe otherwise and I respect your right to do so.

Rory. You describe my idea of God as well.  How can  a God use so many human beings as throwaways, descarded trash as shown in so many Old Testament stories if He loves us all equally?  The alternative thought I think, would be despairing; if we are  not loved all the same, which of us are favored and whom did Jesus REALLY die for?

Thank you, Savo, a fine post.

Carla,

Your description of God matches my own exactly!  I too am appalled at the hypocrisy of many self avowed deeply religious.  Christianity has no monopoly on this as the radical Muslims embody as violent a concept of what God wants as anyone.  It seems that the more fundamentalist followers of a religion are, the greater they are at anthropomorphizing God.

James, I think you would enjoy the books of John Shelby Spong, the retired Episcopal bishop. My favorite is "Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism".

I think He/She/It has always been ready and eager to serve as a political justification.  Consider some old favorites like Divine Right of Kings.

One of the nice things about a Supreme Being is being able to rely on He/She/It for support when you need it.

ok

If there is  a god, god has done a poor job as my father and creator. I live in a world of miseries, hate, disease, prejudice, intolerance, famines, war. I have not been properly guided as to a god's expectations of me. That certainly is not given clearly in the Christian bible: Methodist, Baptist, Catholic, Pentecostal? What should I believe? How should I live?

I simply live by the Golden Rule.  It makes sense to me.

As Abraham Lincoln said, "When I do good, I feel good. When I do bad, I feel bad." I feel good when I treat others well.

Leo...this is what ends it all for me.  I can not comprehend a heavenly being, who supposingly created us, allowing such awful things to happen to his creations.

I think that religion and God was created by man to control man.  To scare humans into doing the right thing.

I don't need the threat of hell or the promises of Heaven to be a good human being.  Doing good, being honest and spreading happiness is much more important to me NOW while I'm alive instead of worrying about what happens when I'm dead.

Leo, perhaps it is best to believe that God created this world and lets us use it to learn lessons about life and about ourselves, making mistakes and learning from them. If one was to picture God as a "heavenly being" as Katherine says, then I don't picture that being enjoying watching us suffer. I would think rather that that being was compassionate and cheering us all on to become stronger and better people.

But as I mentioned above, my concept of God is not as an anthropomorphic supreme being.

On this issue, you and I think the same, Leo.

God is everywhere including the ground one pisses upon and the toilt seat one sets on. 

Wow! that is really profound, Richard.

In my opinion Elizabeth, god is physically everywhere in the atomic structure of everything, as well as the area that holds this universe that contains no time or space.

And your point is, Richard?  You are saying He sees all, being right there, and how does He feel about all that He sees?

God actually is more of a hermaphrodite, neither he nor she, without eyes, as what would a rock or volcano or the moon see anyway.

If you want to know more about god just ask god, for I ain't got a clue

And being right, to you Elizabeth, is very important.

Elizabeth M.,

"we are talking about the one Supreme Being, God, our Heavenly Father"

Then how do you reconcile the fact that the first (and several other) time the concept of a supreme being(s) is mentioned in your Bible, the actual word used in the manuscript is "Elohim"...a feminine plural suffix to a masculine noun?

The correct translation of Genesis 1:1 is actually "In the beginning the Gods..."

Further down at Genesis 1:26, ""Let us make man in our image, in our likeness,..."

There is no father indicated here, but multiple Gods and Goddesses of both genders.

If you insist on taking a literary work literally, then do so.  Don't interject your own opinion of what it should say, because it doesn't.

Glenn Beck could be a Good Guy in his heart !!

A guy that abuses a lot the name of God is Glenn Beck of Fox News.

He constantly appears as the most pious and devout follower of the Will of "God". And in Religious Programs, Shows or Revivals.

He is also the Master of Histrionics : Grimaces, Winks, Gestures, smiles, frowns, Hand and Body Movement, he may defeat Sarah Palin in a contest.

But his personal God has not taught him any Ethics or Morals.

His politics is the most Despicable and Racist Right Wing Extremism.

By his own personal account he is  the child of a Very Dysfunctional Family.

His father abandoned them, his mother committed suicide and Glenn was on Alcohol and Drugs.

I can forgive Glenn Beck due to his extraordinary bad luck in the start of life. Glenn could not absorbe a Good Culture in his Youth. Now his Politics are Fear and Hate.

Glenn may be sincere but his politics lead nowhere, only to confrontations.

I think that other guys at Fox News are not so pious or devout as Glenn and may be more Hypocrite in Religious Matters.

 Milenials.com

 Vicente Duque

Leo, All believers may think that theirs is the called faith, the real path, the "one true church" but only christians will make the claim as though there could never be an alternative.  I distance myself from christians (theologically speaking) because they often come across pretentious and judgemental.

Elizabeth, Jesus said:  "Judge not, lest ye be judged."

The Bible also admonishes us that:  "Judgement is mine, sayeth the lord."

I do not understand Christians who claim they have the right to stand in righteous judgement of others.  The presumption of righteousness seems, to me, sinful.

Elizabeth, thanks for the correction on the "vengeance" line, my error.  Still, you have interpreted the statement from Jesus to mean that you may judge with qualifications, but it seems to me that is not what He said.  He said "Judge not".  Seems pretty final to me.

Of course there are judgements we must make, such as whether or not it is safe to cross the street.  But that is not the same thing as judging another human being.  Same word, different meaning. 

I believe we have the right to stand in moral judgement of just one person:  ourselves.  God is the only one with the right to judge others and the only moral judge to whom I will submit.

Human judgements as to whether actions broke laws or interfered with the rights of others are, again, a different thing.

"Thou shalt not kill."

The commandment does not say "Thou shalt not kill unless they are wearing a different uniform."  It does not say "Thou shalt not kill unless the leaders of your nation ask you to."  It does not say "Thou shalt not kill except under certain circumstances."

It is clear and unambivalent.  To me, there can be no doubt whatsoever that God does not condone war, He does not advocate war, He does not excuse war and He does not ask us to wage war.  Not against others at least. 

War against our own inner weaknesses that are behind all our acts of evil is a different thing, and that I believe He wants us to engage in perpetually.

Elizabeth, how many wars have been fought with both sides thinking God was on their side? How many wars have been fought because the governments lied to the people to motivate them to go to war? How many wars have been fought over money or resources? There are not many wars that have fallen outside that category for God to be opposed to or not.

... and "judging righteously"... 99.9872% of all evil throughout the history of man (and woman) has come from those who thought themselves to be righteous and virtuous. These people who manifested evil, and their supporters, didn't realize, or admit, that "righteous" in practical terms is a subjective judgement.

So then the soldiers who dish out death to opposing soldier will face the same treatment from God?

You can't have peace AND war. It is either one or the other.  Since the bible states that God is a God of peace...  figure it out Elizabeth.

On the one hand you preach the bible on the other you spew out this God is/is not for war.  Get your brain settled; you're making a laughing stock of yourself and giving christianity a black eye.

You can ONLY have peace without war.  It is illogical to say otherwise.

Evil is what we do when we are too weak to choose to do what is morally correct.  The battle against evil is always an internal battle, one each person must wage within themselves.  If you believe that you are righteous and pure and entitled to stand in judgement of others then, in my opinion, you still have an unresolveed battle to wage within yourself.

Carla G. Jun 6, 2009, 5:54pm EDT  Wrote:  (prophetically, it turns out...)

Robert, I understand how you feel. When one encounters a discussion on "religion" there is often a fundamentalist or religious zealot who feels that they have the right religion and the only true religion and the rest are wrong. That basically shuts off all discussion and throws people on the defensive.

Then, one of the chosen few shows up...

Wilka

So, One point at a time, with your kind permission Savo H?

Elizabeth M Jun 6, 2009, 8:42pm EDT

If truth is so subjective, why do we bother having any laws? Why is rape illegal? Why is child pornography illegal? Why isn't anything acceptable? 

Elizabeth, truth is subjective because it is based on observation and perception.  It also depends on the knowledge base of the perceiver.  SCIENCE is as close to truth as we can get, because when experiments repeated over and over again, by different people and different labs...they often obtain the same end-result.  Ergo, (in our limited perceptive states) it is truth-or as close to truth as we can get.

LAWS, and the legal system we endorse, were-and are-written by man to limit the actions of one citizen to harm (one, or more) other citizens.  Laws are in place, supposedly, to protect the citizens. 

The best way we can think of to set up judgment, is to allow 12 "non-biased" people to judge the evil doers' actions.

Actually, I won't discuss anti-choice with you for two reasons,

1)  I just did that yesterday somewhere here on gather, I forget with whom, and

2)  I will never understand the logic behind anti-choice.  I think I give up.  I don't believe there IS any logic behind the movement.  Just more of the "Make Wrong" that you seem to admire.  So, Nope.  Let's talk about the constitution, instead...

Well Elizabeth, observing the Sabbath (for believers) is not about picking wheat to eat on Sunday. It's one of the 10 Commandments to do no work on the Sabbath, and is such a serious Biblical infraction that it carries the Biblical penalty of death. Yet, while many Christians want the 10 Commandments on the courthouse lawn, a very, very, very few observe the Sabbath.

Where does it say that our Sunday is the biblical sabboth?  Why not Friday or Saturday?  It depends on where you start countring.

...uh..No Elizabeth (you're supposed to know this stuff better than I). Exodus 31:15 : Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

Note the words "any work." There's not a lot of room there for "spirit" of the law. Nice excuse though, if you can rationalize it.

Elizabeth M Jun 6, 2009, 10:33pm EDT

When did I EVER say that I was OPEN AND ACCEPTING??? No, I think you have me confused with the people on here who claim they believe, but support many things that are against God as a person's "right".

Elizabeth, you make it very clear that you are NEITHER open NOR accepting.  Very UN-christ-like, in my opinion.  AND, you make the case against yourself.  Your god condones murder-in fact, in the old testament, he seems to thrive on it and endorse it.  Jesus, on the other hand, tells you to turn your other cheek, and thou shall not kill. 

What confuses me about your religious book is that god goes around smiting (I like that word) people, and sending massive, killing "Acts of God" out to erase whole populations (we call that genocide today) and-in doing so, he acts against his own (supposed) written commandment..."Thou Shall Not Kill."  Perhaps it should have been written, "Thou Shall Not Kill...A) Unless God Tells You To, or B) Unless You Are God?" 

I think too many people look at Christians (even Christians do this) and think that if they are Christians, they must accept any evil this world has to offer and just move over cuz it's movin in next door...no! that is NOT me...Christ did NOT excuse evil or sin...

Actually, Elizabeth.  Christ talked pretty heavy about forgiving.  You'll want to go back and re- read those RED words in your new testament.  He was ALL about forgiving others.  (Lest you forget...) 

I am a warrior for Christ...not a patsy for evil. 

Wow.  Now I am skeered.  Using the word Warrior indicates that you're willing to harm, or even kill others.  Is that the case?  Perhaps you'd rather name yourself as a preacher, or a teacher, or a sales associate for christ.  That doesn't seem to be as physically threatening to me.

AND, it sounds to me like you ARE a patsy for evil.  You've been watching those church boot camp videos again, perhaps?  Most of those are church-funded propaganda vids that endorse certain behaviors and acceptance levels based on the belief systems of that church.  Some handle snakes, some dunk folks in rivers, some tell the viewers to "witness," and some tell folks to judge others, and to make other people "wrong" because they do not believe the same things that they believe in.  I don't believe handling snakes is evil, just yucky.  I don't believe swimming in the river with friends to be evil, but-no dunking others...     HOWEVER, I do think it is evil to judge others as being wrong.  Like Here:  I'm not telling you that you're wrong...I'm just saying YOU believing something does NOT make it right.  NOR does it make it THE ONLY RIGHT.

The actual definition of patsy, from Miriam Webster is this: "a person who is easily manipulated or victimized : pushover"

Elizabeth, how and why did you switch the topic to abortion? 

Elizabeth M Jun 6, 2009, 6:02pm EDT

It sounds like you are saying that if we feel strongly about something that happens to be against the liberal political viewpoint, we should be meek and not fight it...is that what you are saying?

Yes.  Precisely.  If you want to inherit the earth.  (Have you watched the movie, Inherit the Wind?  Not that I think you have inherited the wind...

Here's the link to the part I like best.  You may enjoy it.  It may give you something to think about.  It may explain, better than I can, what scares a lot of us about religion.  Enjoy.    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_DQUAuNUvw

1)  No it does not fit at all.

2) Creation Science is an oxymoron. 

3)  NO religon should be presented in schools.  It should be punishable by being debarred and debriefed...

4)  No religion in government--it is one of the main reasons we HAVE a government. 

5)  No religion in the court system.  Get the "swear on a bible" part out too.  We will allow lawyers and judges to say "Holy Cow!" but that is the absolute limit that we will allow.  (No negative slam intended to any holy group or cattlemen anywhere.)

Elizabeth M Jun 6, 2009, 7:01pm EDT

I know a lot of people on both sides of the aisle (religious and non-religious) who are pretentuous [sic] and judgmental...a lot of them are on this post.  

Elizabeth.  No one was judging others until you showed up.  We WERE having a polite conversation, theoretical discussion and respectful dialog about an issue-before you arrived to make everyone wrong about everything.

Nope.  You can post here~~ it is not my article to say who can or can't post here!  BUT, prior to your advent we were agreeing to disagree and having dialog without getting all self-righteous and slamming others, and calling them wrong.  THAT is the only difference. 

Elizabeth M Jun 6, 2009, 7:02pm EDT

But don't confuse being judgmental with judging righteously. There IS a difference.

I would be very interested to hear what that difference is-exactly.  In fact, please post an article on the topic and share your reference points with us.  I will be thrilled to read it. 

Elizabeth M Jun 6, 2009, 10:36pm EDT

I do NOT pretend to be something I am not...and I use my brain to judge with reason...not without reason...to me, you guys are pretentuous and judgmental.  I don't fit the bill Tony...

JUST WHERE DOES a lack of perception like this come from?  There must be a poison well somewhere.  Holy Cow. 

The poison well mentioned above is obviously fed from the watershed of de Nile.

Elizabeth M Jun 6, 2009, 7:03pm EDT

I wonder how many of you believe that God is totally (or should be) opposed to any kind of war at all times.

Pretty much, all of us, Elizabeth.  Unless we are attacked.  Then, according to our laws and constitution, we can defend ourselves.  Other than that, our constitution, so thoroughly trounced by the Republican Right Wingers who recently (almost) left office (except for Dick-who, at this late date, seems to have finally started campaigning.)

What part of "Thou Shall Not Kill" DON'T you understand? 

Now, I really feel that I have been in church this fine Sunday morning.  Perhaps it WAS a waste, as all those other Sundays seem to have been.  Why would anyone surround yourself with people who are always right, never judge while they judge you, and make you wrong for whatever reason flits through their heads (and on Faux news) that day.

So, precious Sunday hour probably wasted...BUT It did remind me what it felt like to be sitting in the pew, getting yelled at...and lectured--and all without even having to don my bonnet, go-to-meetin' dress and patent leather shiney shoes.

Here is my disclaimer:  The replies to Ms E (above) are my opinions.  Just as she has shared her opinions (or SOMEbodies opinions) with us.  I did this in a challanging manner, I know.  To provoke thought?  To vent my own frustrations at the folks in the "make-everybody-but-me-wrong" world?  Whatever.  No one else on this post is guilty of forming or shaping my opinions, so you can hate the messenger, and still respect the posting forum, and the original author of this very intelligent article.

Oh, and Tony?  Right on.  You were absolutely valiant.  A true warrior for free thought. 

Elizabeth, unless you know that Tony is an American, you can't make him wrong for not knowing American War songs. 

 http://www.semp.us/publications/biot_reader.php?BiotID=220

I am here to tell you that WAR ISN'T NECESSARY IN CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES.  It certainly was not necessary in Iraq.  4,500+ dead American soldiers, mile high debt, how many hundreds of thousands  dead Iraquis,  all for profit for the few, the mighty--the Millionaires.

How ABOUT those no-bid contracts for Halliburton?  How BOUT those Blackwater contractors?  Yeah...not so much.  It was not, ever, Iraq that contributed to the 9/11 disaster. 

And there you go, being all full of "Should" again

Elizabeth, your characterization of "our problem with Muslims" going way back to John Adams day has a couple of problems with it. All Muslims from John Adams day died long ago.

Also, note the language from the Treaty of Tripoli: “As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce in interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.” The document was ratified by the Senate, and signed by President John Adams.

Elizabeth, I am waiting to hear the facts from SOMEone about 9/11

How we suffered (and we did, and it was wrong, and in my humble opinion, it was a mortal sin) was and still is tragic.  But to use it as a clarion call to arms, was wrong, ill-thought-out, ill-planned, and a marvelous way to make money for Curious George and Darth Cheney's Halliburton Oil company. 

What I want to know, after all these years, is HOW (just HOW???) we came to invade the wrong country?  We must need more telescopes up in the sky.  We invaded IRAQ.  Wrong, Wrong, Wrong country. 

Pretty darned sad isn't it?  They "mentally create" (a euphemism for pretend) that they have WMDs...and that they're in league (proven otherwise since then) with the terrorists who attacked us.

Osama Ben Hidin is still out there.  Sad.  Very Sad.

Wilka

Actually Elizabeth Iraq 2 didn't begin because the CIA uncovered evidence that Saddam was creating WMD. It began after the Bush administration used such propaganda tactics as associating Saddam with 9/11 even though there was no connection. In fact, CIA Director George Tenet issued a memo urging Bush to remove the famous 16 words about Niger uranium from his State of the Union speech, but he delivered it anyway. Ultimately roughly half of Americans came to the mistaken conclusion that Saddam was involved in 9/11. The CIA issued a report that said there was no connection.

You might also be interested, in case you haven't seen it, in the recent revelation (pun intended) that Bush told France's Chirac that he was invading Iraq because he needed to carry out Biblical prophecy of Gog and Magog. Basically another war with the excuse "God is on our side."

uh, Elizabeth... I believe the alleged 9/11 attackers died at the scene. It was a criminal act of a small number of individuals. For us to move our massive military might against an "enemy" with no tanks, air force or ships, and had no personal involvement in 9/11...

...yeah I'd say that's wrong.

"No, I think you have me confused with the people on here who claim they believe, but support many things that are against God as a person's "right".

For some reason, this one line jumped out at me more than anything else you have written on this thread, Elizabeth.....

As a believer, there are many things that I do not support or do not like, but I do not feel it is my job to condemn anybody else for doing those things.

I am as utterly against abortion as a person can be. Yet, if I personally knew someone who had gotten an abortion, I would love them with the love of Christ and never utter one word of condemnation toward them.

The whole idea of possessing "rights" is a man-made illusion.

We are all only as free as other men and women say we are.

And it does absolutely no good to condemn anyone for anything.

There is a difference between merely not supporting something or not being in favor of it and condemning to hell anyone who does that thing.

Elizabeth.....

I meant no disrespect to you or to anything you believe.

I was in no way trying to attack you or put you down.

 I apologize if it seemed that way.....

What happened to over 50 comments? There were over 180 comments yesterday, today only 127... I didn't delete any.

After reading through the thread again, Savo, I conclude that it was one person who deleted all of her comments. Still, well done on a great conversation!

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